Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth (GM Reference)


Wrath of the Righteous

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Lochar wrote:

Augmented Mythic Disintegrate creates two rays, which means it should have had two saves for partial, and two attack rolls (although with a touch of 11 that's pretty much fishing for 1s there)

Igramalash should have at least attempted to surge one of those saves for 1d10 extra.

Not sure where the +2 Iomedae Int is coming from, as she doesn't offer boons until after the Herald is killed or redeemed, as far as I can tell.

But low rolls suck big time. If your party is kicking that much ass, I'd almost suggest an x2 or x3 modifier on HP for the big bads.

Iomedae gives extra stuff in the first adventure if you cleaned up the gray garrison. We have 2 iomedeaen characters, so they got the +2 skill, +1 feat, +5hp, and a +2 to an ability score.

And you are right about the 2 saves for Disintegrate I totally missed that. Thanks!

Scarab Sages

Ah, yeah. I did forget about the +2 from the Gray Garrison.

But yeah, with a 3 on the save roll even rolling a 10 on the surge die wouldn't have been high enough to save from the first one. And using the 2 from the horrid wilting as your second save it didn't make it any better. Knowing DM luck, if you'd forced him to roll the second ray it likely would have critted. :P


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brad2411 wrote:

Ok so my group of 3 just did the Ylleshka and Igramalash trap fight. She came really quick the turn after he was released. and then 2 rounds after that the fight was over. Igramalash was taken out by my wizard with a channeled power quicken augmented mythic disintegrate spell (162d6's). He also threw in a horrid wilting for good cause (another 18d6). Ylleshka was facing our cleric that has an AC of 45 so she could not hit her on anything less then a nat 20 and the cleric hit on 4 attacks and one critical also killing her off.

If it continues to go like this Baphomet will be killed in one round.

Seems I am not the only one who has noticed how incredibly unbalanced mythic combat is in favor of the player characters. ^^

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magnuskn wrote:
brad2411 wrote:

Ok so my group of 3 just did the Ylleshka and Igramalash trap fight. She came really quick the turn after he was released. and then 2 rounds after that the fight was over. Igramalash was taken out by my wizard with a channeled power quicken augmented mythic disintegrate spell (162d6's). He also threw in a horrid wilting for good cause (another 18d6). Ylleshka was facing our cleric that has an AC of 45 so she could not hit her on anything less then a nat 20 and the cleric hit on 4 attacks and one critical also killing her off.

If it continues to go like this Baphomet will be killed in one round.

Seems I am not the only one who has noticed how incredibly unbalanced mythic combat is in favor of the player characters. ^^

Yeah I really hate to admit it but high mythic is pretty bad. We just finished Harold of the Ivory Labyrinth, we fought Baphomet and he got the first in turn and he summoned in his balor and his Labyrinth Min. Then our Cleric did more then half his damage in one round and then the paladin did more then half of what he had left and our arcanist finished him off with a channel power quickened maximized augmented mythic magic missile then another channel power maximized augmented mythic magic missile which killed him. His minions did not last long after him. (Then the Arcanist used wishes to rip alderpash's cells to his own demiplane) But I have a replacement character if mine dies and that guy does as much or more damage then my arcanist can do and he is a fighter.


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brad2411 wrote:
Yeah I really hate to admit it but high mythic is pretty bad. We just finished Harold of the Ivory Labyrinth, we fought Baphomet and he got the first in turn and he summoned in his balor and his Labyrinth Min. Then our Cleric did more then half his damage in one round and then the paladin did more then half of what he had left and our arcanist finished him off with a channel power quickened maximized augmented mythic magic missile then another channel power maximized augmented mythic magic missile which killed him. His minions did not last long after him. (Then the Arcanist used wishes to rip alderpash's cells to his own demiplane) But I have a replacement character if mine dies and that guy does as much or more damage then my arcanist can do and he is a fighter.

And now one whole module of even more of that coming up. :p

Scarab Sages

brad2411 wrote:
Yeah I really hate to admit it but high mythic is pretty bad. We just finished Harold of the Ivory Labyrinth, we fought Baphomet and he got the first in turn and he summoned in his balor and his Labyrinth Min. Then our Cleric did more then half his damage in one round and then the paladin did more then half of what he had left and our arcanist finished him off with a channel power quickened maximized augmented mythic magic missile then another channel power maximized augmented mythic magic missile which killed him. His minions did not last long after him. (Then the Arcanist used wishes to rip alderpash's cells to his own demiplane) But I have a replacement character if mine dies and that guy does as much or more damage then my arcanist can do and he is a fighter.

Poor Harold. :P

As for Baphomet, did you give him his 'I'm on my Abyssal domain, here's my Mythic' at least?

Mythic Timestop, Unhallow with a miracle'd Silence for everyone not a CE worshipper of Baphomet. You should have then literally COVERED the room in flying half-fiend minotaurs (24 of 'em!), plus balors, plus another labyrinth minotaur.


Is the herald's CR correct? If so it seems kind of low for the party.

Assuming the party is 18/8 when they fight him, their APL would be 22, which would put him 2 CR below the party level.

Is this correct, if so it seems like it will be a really easy fight for the party.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
wegrata wrote:

Is the herald's CR correct? If so it seems kind of low for the party.

Assuming the party is 18/8 when they fight him, their APL would be 22, which would put him 2 CR below the party level.

Is this correct, if so it seems like it will be a really easy fight for the party.

Yes but remember if you didn't kill everyone first, you'll be fighting every named NPC in the dungeon, oh and then you only get a few rounds before Baphomet shows up with his 24 summoned minions.


j b 200 wrote:
wegrata wrote:

Is the herald's CR correct? If so it seems kind of low for the party.

Assuming the party is 18/8 when they fight him, their APL would be 22, which would put him 2 CR below the party level.

Is this correct, if so it seems like it will be a really easy fight for the party.

Yes but remember if you didn't kill everyone first, you'll be fighting every named NPC in the dungeon, oh and then you only get a few rounds before Baphomet shows up with his 24 summoned minions.

I remembered about the other named enemies from that area showing up, but that happens a lot if APs, without having a final encounter at APL-2.

Baphoment shows up 1d4 rounds after the herald is defeated, and it is intended for the PCs to flee rather than stay and fight him

I just thought it was odd that the CR was either 2 below APL for the boss, or the mythic ranks weren't calculated into it (if they aren't then the total CR of the herald would be 22, so normal for a final encounter)


For Channel Power, I always assumed you rolled the dice first, then added 50% of it. Mostly because rolling 162d6 sounds unwieldy.

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Odraude wrote:
For Channel Power, I always assumed you rolled the dice first, then added 50% of it. Mostly because rolling 162d6 sounds unwieldy.

Yeah. I collect dice and would not roll that many I just used a dice roller program on my computer. But adding %50 is totally ok you are still rolling over 100d6 without that


Mathematically. let's see how the two ways differ.

The 162 is actually two rays doing 81 damage each. taking off the 50% (81/1.5) makes it 54d6 each for a level 18 Mythic Disintegrate. So, going from that, here are the two methods.

Method 1: 50% extra dice rolled

With this, you are rolling 81d6s. Looking at the math of the dice, here is what I've come up with:

Average Rolled: 283.5
Standard Deviation: 15.37
Maximum Rolled: 486
Minimum Rolled: 81

Method 2: 50% value of dice rolled

With this, you are rolling 54d6s, then adding 50% of the value.

Average Rolled: 283.5 (189.00*1.5)
Standard Deviation: 12.55* (Need someone better at math to solve this with the +50% part)
Maximum Rolled: 486 (324*1.5)
Minimum Rolled: 81 (54*1.5)

So, barring the standard deviation change (if there is one), seems like both are the same. So I think I'll just roll less dice since that seems easier :)

Scarab Sages

It's more fun to roll 162 dice.

But the adding them would be a b~!%*.


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You obviously don't play Warhammer 40K against Tyranid players. ;)


Tangent101 wrote:
You obviously don't play Warhammer 40K against Tyranid players. ;)

Seconded. Rolling that many dice gets real old real fast.

Scarab Sages

That's different.

This is a very rare occurrence.


A lot of people have mentioned Baphomet summoning dozens of half-fiend minotaurs, but would that really make a difference? I would think that their attack rolls are too low to hit anyone at that level, and that the mythic party could just slaughter them with AoE spells. Moreover, what GM is going to want to micromanage 24 monsters?

Scarab Sages

They're there to be a wall of meat the PCs must go through.

Check out my post here to see my full thoughts on what use his minotaurs and everything else is.


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I really dislike the flavor of the 1st part of this adventure where meeting Iomedae is like meeting a trigger happy high school principal. I'll have to think about how to rework that. Having a LG deity immediately resort to punitive action seems out of place. My assumption is that this may due for the sake of page space and I could make a stretch that Iomedae doesn't have time to fool around as the Crusade hangs in a critical balance but I am definitely not playing this out as written. =(

Dark Archive

Spare the rod spoil the child. I am guessing that is what iomedae is thinking and also any PC who thinks that they can just screw with a goddess needs to really be taught otherwise.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's not punishment for 'screwing with the goddess' that's the problem. It's the punishment for getting her questions 'wrong'. Huge amounts of sonic damage and deafness is not a proportional response for a LG goddess to give PCs for disagreeing with each other over whether attempting to redeem the wicked is prudent.


Axial wrote:
A lot of people have mentioned Baphomet summoning dozens of half-fiend minotaurs, but would that really make a difference? I would think that their attack rolls are too low to hit anyone at that level, and that the mythic party could just slaughter them with AoE spells. Moreover, what GM is going to want to micromanage 24 monsters?

AoE would do it, as would, if the PCs are willing, burning a Wish to make ~18 of them make Will saves or be dumped in some absurdly hostile locale. Maybe drop them into the sun "for the lulz" if you're of a mind.


Revan wrote:
It's not punishment for 'screwing with the goddess' that's the problem. It's the punishment for getting her questions 'wrong'. Huge amounts of sonic damage and deafness is not a proportional response for a LG goddess to give PCs for disagreeing with each other over whether attempting to redeem the wicked is prudent.

She heals the damage and raises the dead at the end anyway - it only stings a little to high level PC's and only for a short time. It actually seems really appropriate to me as a level of response - enough to get the attention of the bumbling fools before her and yet without doing any real lasting harm (bumbling fools includes those who haven't bothered to think through redemption this far into an adventure path where redemption is a significant theme). And if the PC's think this is unproportional, then they have a lesson that they need to learn about the weightiness of divinity, how far short of divinity they themselves are, the weightiness of the task before them, and the importance to their task of unity.

If the players think it's unproportional, then they can learn the same things above. If they think it's not lawful or good, then they don't understand the alignment system very well.


Bredwyr wrote:
Illeshka's tactics (p60) seems to imply that bonuses from different defending weapons stack. Is it really the case? Aren't these bonuses generated by the same source?

"A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others." - Pathfinder SRD

A bonus that stacks with all other bonuses may or may not stack with itself, that's ambiguous. Apparently, we now have a semi-official clarification that it does. But this can only be done if the weapon is wielded, not if the weapon is sheathed. I guess having a lot of arms is a really good thing. Think what Ylleshka could do if she knew Greater Magic Weapon to increase the enhancement bonuses...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

My take: A bonus that stacks with all others is indeed one that stacks with itself, since a bonus from another sword is, by definition, an "other" bonus.

Whether or not the rules team would say so, I can't say. It's unlikely to be something that's really going to ever supercharge a PC, since PCs have only 2 arms, and if you let a PC with more than 2 arms into the game, well... you're playing a high-powered game already.

Anyway... if you DON'T want them to stack, that shouldn't nerf the marilith at all, since as built she's got stats that are pretty damn good. The boost to AC is really kind of like strapping a machine gun to a bomb.

Scarab Sages

Cue the half elven summoners with a 20 armed Eidolon and a slew of +1 defending long swords. :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Lochar wrote:
Cue the half elven summoners with a 20 armed Eidolon and a slew of +1 defending long swords. :)

If you let a summoner have a 20-armed eidolon in your game, a slew of +1 defending longswords isn't gonna make a difference.

Scarab Sages

I know, I'm kidding James.

While I've got you here, a question.

Atoning the Herald:
Does Atonement reduce it's casting time from 1 hour to something usable when targeting the Herald, or is the up to 18 Atonement spells actually going to take up to 18 hours to cast? Plus the whole 'helpless or grappled' is going to be really hard to hold for an entire hour's worth of casting.


The PCs should have spare Atonements available thanks to the Goddess. If cast on the Herald while the heart is in his chest, then it hits him with 2d4+1 negative levels. On average, they should be doing 5.5 negative levels per casting, so if you have four PCs using Atonement, that should do the job unless they have very bad luck.

And personally, as a GM, I'd rule that the four Atonements (or three if you only have three players) would be sufficient to remove the corruption for pure theatrical effect. It was why the Atonement was put on the Herald to begin with. And sure, he gets saving throws... but this is theatrical in nature and should not get bogged down by rules.

In short, let the Rule of Cool control how this plays out.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Lochar wrote:

I know, I'm kidding James.

While I've got you here, a question.

Spoiler:
Does Atonement reduce it's casting time from 1 hour to something usable when targeting the Herald, or is the up to 18 Atonement spells actually going to take up to 18 hours to cast? Plus the whole 'helpless or grappled' is going to be really hard to hold for an entire hour's worth of casting.

Oops... that's an error on my part. I totally spaced on noticing how long it takes atonement to be cast.

I would certainly say that the atonements given to the PCs by Iomedae should be 1 standard action to create, and that should be enough to do the trick.


I was going to say that a Hierophant can use their Mythic Path to cast spells more rapidly, but double-checking it's only the Archmage who casts spells as a Swift Action when doing so. Hierophants don't get any change at all for casting time which means pretty much priestly classes are screwed with the Mythic Rules while Arcane casters are able to run rampant over everyone else (seeing that wizards are already overpowered at mid- to high-levels compared to melee types).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Actually, James, the Jailer has horrible stats.

You notice she's actually weaker then a standard marilith? Yes, a normal marilith is str 27. THe jailer is a 25. As a result, her hit bonus is in the mid-20's. 16th level characters fighting her are going to have AC's in the 40's. She's barely going to be able to touch them, and when she does, she isn't going to do much damage.

In the fight between her and the giant, she's going to barely be able to get through his DR, while his huge blows have a much better chance of getting through hers, and he'll hit just about as often.

Was it an error, giving her a Str of only 25? I would have thought that the elite array and an extra level alone should have buffed her up to 32 from a standard marilith, and she's not wearing a str belt.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I noticed her extremely anemic (for her CR) attack bonus and damage as well. She is not going to be able to hit most frontline fighters except on a nat 20.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aelryinth wrote:

Was it an error, giving her a Str of only 25? I would have thought that the elite array and an extra level alone should have buffed her up to 32 from a standard marilith, and she's not wearing a str belt.

==Aelryinth

Nope; it wasn't an error. She has SO many attacks that giving her a high Str would have swiftly made her do way too much damage for her CR. She does a fair amount as is... and the fact that she'll be less likely to hit every time is what helps her be justified at her current CR.

That said, feel free to up her Str if you feel that your group can take that swiftly increasing amount of damage.

Aelryinth wrote:

In the fight between her and the giant, she's going to barely be able to get through his DR, while his huge blows have a much better chance of getting through hers, and he'll hit just about as often.

That's ABSOLUTELY the point. The adventure kind of expects tricking her into being confronted by that guy is the "right solution" for the whole thing. If the PCs pull that pairing off, that's the correct way to "win" that conflict, and it should indeed be one that she loses.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

magnuskn wrote:
Yeah, I noticed her extremely anemic (for her CR) attack bonus and damage as well.

At CR 22, she should have an attack of between 25 and 32. She's at +23, so indeed that's low. I guess you could use the word "anemic" to describe this, but I think that's a bit over-the-top for being 2 points below the expected low.

At CR 22, she should do average damage between 105 and 140 if all attacks hit. She does an average of 191 points if all attacks hit, which is high. HARDLY anemic.

So, the idea there is that she won't hit nearly as often as you'd expect a CR 22 creature to hit, but she has so many more opportunities to hit than a CR 22 creature that she doesn't NEED to hit every time to hit her expected CR damage range.

Thing is... when you give a monster a LOT of attacks, getting it to hit the numbers suggested by that table is increasingly difficult. That's why apes, for example, are relatively low Strength (due to the fact that we couldn't adjust their CR up higher for various reasons), and why we upped the kraken from CR 12 to CR 18 in the switch from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

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magnuskn wrote:
She is not going to be able to hit most frontline fighters except on a nat 20.

That's kinda what her project image/blade barrier/telekinesis tactic is for.

That, and the fact that she doesn't need to stand still in front of those fighters—she can stay pretty mobile and make her full attacks, preventing fighters from being able to the same (unless those fighters have, of course, similar powers).

Frankly... if it turns out that Ylleshka ends up being too easy for most groups... I'll be surprised and disappointed on one level... but on another frustrated and not so surprised... and on another delighted that such a powerful foe ended up not being an instant TPK thanks to the presence of Mythic stuff.

AND: as always, if your group is composed of experienced players using a party of 6 PCs who have 25 point buy stats and so on... you need to boost NPC/monster stats anyway.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

ALL THAT SAID...

Developing these last few adventures for Wrath of the Righteous was among the harder things I've had to do—I really did feel like I was in uncharted waters for most of these adventures in getting things set up so they walked the line between cakewalk and TPK. And barring adding another year or so onto the playtest cycle for something like this... there's unfortunately not really a way to avoid that for significant new additions to a game. We had much the same problem with Council of Thieves being the first Pathifnder AP.

We do the best we can, pay attention to the results, and use what we've learned to make the next one better.


Unless, of course, the GM plays the monsters to their fullest ability, utilizing terrain, knowing his players weaknesses and uses them to his fullest, and in essence has even the most experienced of players treading in caution. There is a reason why Tucker's Kobalds were so feared. It wasn't monster stats. It was GM tactics.

Also, GMs can always adjust things a tad. For instance, having any Outer Planes entity able to use Greater Teleport as an innate Immediate Action, and thus able to teleport in and attack... and then next round attack again and then teleport out. (I did this with the AD&D Night Below campaign I ran, with the basic visual of what the Mazaku from Slayers Next would pull off regularly.)

After all, it's your game. Run it as you want. And adjust things so it's more of a challenge, so long as you don't make it unwinnable.

Liberty's Edge

James,
1 -Why was CoT so low level? Because paizo was uncharted waters?
2 -Are the names "Guardinal" and "Eladrin" not open content?

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James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
She is not going to be able to hit most frontline fighters except on a nat 20.

That's kinda what her project image/blade barrier/telekinesis tactic is for.

That, and the fact that she doesn't need to stand still in front of those fighters—she can stay pretty mobile and make her full attacks, preventing fighters from being able to the same (unless those fighters have, of course, similar powers).

Frankly... if it turns out that Ylleshka ends up being too easy for most groups... I'll be surprised and disappointed on one level... but on another frustrated and not so surprised... and on another delighted that such a powerful foe ended up not being an instant TPK thanks to the presence of Mythic stuff.

AND: as always, if your group is composed of experienced players using a party of 6 PCs who have 25 point buy stats and so on... you need to boost NPC/monster stats anyway.

An Enlarged fighter is immune to being thrown around by TK from weight, although I suppose he could take the damage if she finds something to throw at him.

At AC 40, which is +4 and +5 stuff, she's got a 20% chance of hitting, and that's not high AC.

Nor does she get to take a full attack on a move - she's not a hydra, doesn't have Pounce or fleet charge. I suppose she can blow mythic power for a single extra attack...

Frankly, I would be surprised if any decent party really has a problem with her. I would be surprised if a decent nascent demon lord has a problem with her.

All that said...it's a balancing act that's hard to act, and I do expect DM's to buff her up.

==Aelryinth


Could always switch out two of her swords with +5 Swords. The rest boost her armor, while two blades will have a far greater chance of hitting.


Try thinking of it this way; just because she is a jailor, doesn't make her better that those she is warden of. Just check out the situation with our prison guards; outnumbered, underarmed, guarding common crooks to hardened killers who have an uncanny ability to organize themselves despite what is done to prevent it. Throw in a CE situation and you have one very nervous Marlilth who has to patrol all by her lonesome.

Dark Archive

Hey James just wanted to say I have been loving this AP. But I will say that in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth I noticed that the fights did become easier compared to the earlier ones. In fact the hardest battle we had in this chapter was the Father of Worms which almost killed us in the first hit of his breath weapon. Could be that we have gotten more use to the mythic rules and our characters or that at such a high level they are a lot more powerful. We have 3 characters but we also rolled pretty insane on our stats so that could be a contributing factor. Like I said though I am loving this AP. Thanks!

Sidebar can anybody tell me how to block a augmented mythic magic missile? Is there a way?


A lot of people have talked about Baphomet not being able to stand up to Mythic PCs, but I wonder if he would be a challenge for a nonmythic party of the same level...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

ALL THAT SAID...

Developing these last few adventures for Wrath of the Righteous was among the harder things I've had to do—I really did feel like I was in uncharted waters for most of these adventures in getting things set up so they walked the line between cakewalk and TPK. And barring adding another year or so onto the playtest cycle for something like this... there's unfortunately not really a way to avoid that for significant new additions to a game. We had much the same problem with Council of Thieves being the first Pathifnder AP.

We do the best we can, pay attention to the results, and use what we've learned to make the next one better.

Well, you guys put more than double the normal WBL into this AP (at least modules 2+3, I haven't gone through the next two yet). There are easy ways to craft magic items at faster then x4 speed with mythic rules and supplemental books like Ultimate Magic. And if you guys write "Even high-level PC's may find themselves in over their heads against this powerful demon" and "...if she manages to put down half the party", I do expect her to be especially dangerous. Not pathetically unable to hit foes of the caliber she should be expected to face.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I've played many games with characters in the15-20 level range, very very few had AC's in the 40's. You are far and away a massive outlier on that regard, so she is hardly "pathetically unable" to land her attacks on people she's expected to face.


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I wish these threads would contain more than basically every discussion coming down to how inadequate these adventures are for magnuskn's mighty players.


Squeakmaan wrote:
I've played many games with characters in the15-20 level range, very very few had AC's in the 40's.

Eh. If I'm running a character expecting to deal with melee-ers regularly, I assume that I want an AC at least 15 (preferably 20) higher than the to-hit bonus of whatever I'm fighting (usually coupled with miss chance and the like to help increase the character's chances) as a rule of thumb.


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What Magnuskn should do is run the campaign while outlawing magic construction feats and not letting players purchase magic items either. You're limited to only what you find in the AP. See if it's a cakewalk then.


Just wanted to point out that Ylleshka has the same Strength score as a standard marilith: 25, not 27. It was in 3.5 where this demons had more Str (29).

I was waiting to see how Paizo handled the 12-armed marilith. I agree with others about the dissapointing result. Why include a melee heavy monster if you are not going to use it to her full potential? Even if you raise her attack and damage bonuses this monster has other weaknesses players can exploit to defeat her. I remember the Orlath demon from Dungeon magazine: that monster had 17 attacks, wielded scimitars with improved critical, and had other attacks at CR 15. I understand the CR system has changed regarding statistics, but my point is if that monster didn't cause thousands of TPKs on the campaign it appeared, I'm sure you can include a powerful marilith in a mythic campaign where players are tougher.

Somehow she has a +3 modifier to her CR (17 base, +2 from tiers, +3 ?? = 22). Conjoined is nice but hardly worth +1 CR at this level. I suppose the designers considered her low attack bonus/damage bonus too high, so they over-CR'ed her, and put the mythic ability score increases into Constitution instead of Strength. She also doesn't have mythic Power Attack, wich could help with the low damage without getting penalized on the attacks.

There are two errors in the statblock:

- She has three +2 applied (two of them to Constitution along with the +6 belt, and one to Charisma) when she only has 4 tiers.

- She doesn't have the mythic amulet of the abyss enhancement applied to her natural armor (+4). Her AC should be 45.

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