Okay, now I am totally confused. How does the Archmage not get swift spells for this ability? It clearly says "and must have a casting time of "1 standard action" (or less)"
Also, how does that relate to my fears about Vang being shut down with the Flexible Counterspell tier ability? ^^
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Because it's "As a standard action" you may cast "and must have a casting time of 1 standard action (or less)"
And Vang won't get shut down unless you have two people with Flexible Counterspell because Flexible counterspell is an immediate action. If that's the case, give him an Acolyte that will try to Dimension Door them, then have Vang teleport if that fails.
Ah, sorry. I did not intend to put "shut down" in the context that he would be unable to do anything, but rather that his effectiveness would be (at least) halved.
Although it is not really impossible that he will be totally shut down, since we have another Sorcerer and Wizard additionally to the Cleric. So, yeah, it still could happen.
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Honestly, your best answer is likely to be 'force the party to expend as much mythic power as possible' prior to the BBEG combat. They'll have 9-11 uses of Mythic power when they start. If they don't blitzkrieg the Sanctum, don't hold back on being a real ass.
Swap one of Vang's prepared spells(I'd suggest Summon IV) for Earth Glide. Then Earth Glide(fudge the CL check if you must) his Retrievers at them.
Those suggestions sound good. :)
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I think Vang could use some minions. One or two advanced (hit dice, template, more ranks...) apocalypse locusts from Bestiary 4 could be appropriate. Their cursed brand ability will mess divine PCs pretty badly if they fail their saves. Don't forget that the PCs will have Arueshalae with them for this fight. That is another mythic PC.
The ivory sanctum in general could use some improvements. It also lacks (IMHO) a "cool!" factor that other bosses hideouts in Paizo adventures have. I'm surprised no one in the crusade has managed to locate it after all these years, given that it's not even protected against divinations (unless I missed something). As for the encounters, I have a few ideas:
- Replace the basilisk with something more threatening. A variant mythic gorgon can be a good solution to keep the area description intact (he can petrify creatures with its breath). If you prefer a minion of Deskari, a myrmecoleon (B4) can do the job.
- The guardian minotaurs will be mythic (2 or 3 ranks).
- Templars and blackfire adepts will probably be speedbumps at this level for my group, so i'll get rid of them. They will be elsewhere in the worldwound. This will allow me to have less combats but more challenging, so the group can reach Vang in one assault with depleted resources.
- Jerribeth will get more mythic ranks. Since a glabrezu is CR 13, 6 ranks seems right, for a total CR of 16.
- Xanthir Vang will be reworked, using the excellent suggestions made by others.
I hope in the next adventures the designers try to include more mythic enemies. I understand that not every fight should be against equal-power opponents, but we are halfway through the AP and only 6 mythic enemies have appeared. For me it seems too low for an AP that should show both sides of the mythic ruleset (players/DM).
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The Templars and Blackfire Adepts have a background purpose here, since this is the Templar Sanctum. Dropping all of them kinda makes the point of it being their sanctum moot, no?
My suggestion, to stay in line with the lore, lower the number of Templars and Adepts instead of dropping them completely. Have the players find a ritual site somewhere in there with dead Templars and Adepts and the burned out shards of few of the crystals. Vang has managed his research into them and is able to make things Mythic faster now, which is why the Sanctum has so many more mythic creatures.
You can then add the mythic simple template of Invulnerable to the remaining Templars and Adepts, bumping them up to dangerous.
You now have made the party have an entirely Oh S@$% moment and a big need to make sure Vang is dead dead dead.
I don't think removing the humans from the sanctum makes its purpose moot. After all, the worldwound is immersed in an all-out attack against the crusaders so the templars and adepts could be on the front lines while the sanctum guardians and elite monsters keep their hideout safe. They have other safehouses. One of them appears on this adventure.
I'll keep the bedrooms so the place stays consistent with the lore, but honestly I thought the "minions" (templars and adepts) should not know where their headquarters are located, otherwise the crusaders' interrogations or spells should have uncovered the location by now. The templars have an extensive spy network, so whatever resources/information they need, they can get them wherever they are without having to go to the sanctum.
I don't think Vang would turn some human minions into mythic creatures. It doesn't make sense to me. The additional mythic creatures I want to introduce are special servants sent from Baphomet/Deskari to help their favored minions (Jerribeth and Vang).
Your idea about Vang quickening his research is good, so I'll keep it in mind if I need to put a clock on the PC's progress.
Don't forget: The Blackfire Adepts are only nominal allies of the demons, and primarily because of their leader. They don't think of themselves as front-line fighters and instead would do a support role such as here in their sanctum. It's better to keep them here - perhaps having been turned into test subjects by their leader (as Lochar suggested) to increase their potency and the sense of threat concerning Vang.
I know about their relationship. They can do a fine job at the frontlines. See the Kenabres organizations background at The Worldwound Incursion to see an example of this. It doesn't mean they have to do actual battle with the enemy. They can disrupt the crusaders tactics from their support role.
Also it doesn't help that I dislike the way they are built.
Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions.
I know about their relationship. They can do a fine job at the frontlines. See the Kenabres organizations background at The Worldwound Incursion to see an example of this. It doesn't mean they have to do actual battle with the enemy. They can disrupt the crusaders tactics from their support role.
Also it doesn't help that I dislike the way they are built.
Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions.
I think this goes back to what has been said before: encounters by Paizo writers seem to be designed to let pcs win with ease....they are not punishing enough/ testing enough.
The failure of the toughness of the encounters aside (a topic regularly flagged up on these boards but it never seems to filter through to designers...)... what is a shame that villains seem to also wait for pcs to kick in their door, rather than pro-actively go after them.... in a clinical fashion..... it is mentioned that maybe, if pcs dawdle, then assassins may come after them... but better to have this built into the AP as an assumption... more scry and fry by the baddies...
PLUS - coming back to the Ivory Sanctum - such a shame the encounter setting is so 'meh' - not mythic/ epic.... why not use the environment more.... and have more interesting zones - in combination with critters..
Thus several things are needed (to 4e/ pimp it up):
Bigger encounter zones with a variety of combatants
More interesting hazards/ physical issues for pcs to deal with in the encounter zone
The use of traps by npcs within such zones (on occasion)
Use of Mooks - as in 4e - few HPs and few xps - but good bonuses to hit so they need to be taken down....
etc... stuff I have said before.
I am liking the fluff... but still think more could be done.....
I really think Paizo would do better to slow down the levelling per book, have longer APs, have more sandboxing per level, enable more development of relationships, exploration, and also richer combat zone which make you go: AWESOME!
This AP ties well together... much better than Carrion Crown. But I look forward to more material from Legendary Games to help spice this setting up.... I just wish Paizo could work out how to write good encounters which are challenging, varied, etc...
Sigh.....
Oh well
Will post suggestions when I have some more time!!
Creative Director
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If we built every encounter to be "Punishing enough/testing enough" then we would run the real risk of alienating a lot more folks by making our adventures TPK machines. It seems to me that there's no better way to get bad reviews (and thus decreased sales) than to kill off a lot of players' characters.
Likewise, we don't want to make the adventure cakewalks. We try to aim at the midline between the two, with the assumption of 4 players of moderate experience using 15 point buy for their stats.
The more you deviate from that, the more you're going to have to adjust things for your table. It's part of being a GM.
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The problem, James, is that far too many GMs believe they can't deviate one iota from the as-written AP. I know there has been outrage over suggestions to modify certain foes that were too tough for a number of groups. I have heard GMs on these forums throw up their hands and defend a TPK with Rokhar (for instance) as saying "but that's how it's written" and who insist that the Dice Are God (ie, fudging is such a great level of evil that anyone who fudges is a bad GM who should be shunned).
If I were to lay the blame anywhere, I'd say it's laziness. I mean, I'm constantly rewriting encounters in the APs because I send higher-level characters through them. Likewise I'll adjust things on the fly when I realize a foe is too tough or not tough enough. But some GMs just want to open the product and have it perfect for their PCs. Even when their PCs are beyond that level of difficulty... or are so new that the goblins in Sandpoint would eat them for lunch.
Am with you James on not wanting you to alienate your audience. Some folks are going to be new to gaming, others not so good at pc design /maths involved in the game. Some GMs will allow 20/25 point buys and create their own problems since these paths are designed for 15 point buys. Some groups have 5+ players....
On a previous message thread, I believe for WotR 1, there was a discussion about this there...and there have been others.
Folks like Sc8rpi8n and myself run 15 point buy groups yet as GMs constantly find ourselves having to massively boost combats/ combatants. It has gotten so bad that using the advanced templates has simply not been enough.
I do genuinely believe there is a real need to offer some alternative stats for the grognards like us out there. Not TPK fights for experienced players/GMs but challenging encounters for such folk.
As I mentioned on a previous post, this could be done via web support. I certainly feel your designers could take a leaf out of the 4e encounter philosophy: i.e. to make sure big encounters have a mix of combat roles. To use Terrain and traps more dynamically. Etc.
Because encounters are so badly designed/ npcs can be, I have now bought myself herolab to retool npcs faster. I have a really busy day job thus am time poor. My gang were simply not getting a proper challenge. Ever. Yeah they are graduates, but.... we need supporting too!!
It would be great if there could be a corporate shift in encounter zone design philosophy. Thus all major encounter sites become more organic and less static. That designers thus design them, eg towers, ruins, etc with the fact that
A. Npcs are going to be on guard
B. Npcs may already be aware pcs exist. They may try and scry n fry. They will have designed traps. They will have guards.
C. When attacked, they will have some kind of response team.
D. That encounter zones need missile specialists, skirmishes, brutes, etc from 4e. There should be PF templates for such roles to change critters.
E. Thus fewer encounters but those which exist should be more epic. Reward pcs for recon, research, tactics and punish those to stumble about clueless.
At least to offer some of this.
Why not trial this....trial a new AP in which you bring out an 8-10 book AP with a slower levelling but with each book richer in design and advice. In teaching we call this differentiated. Material for newbs. Material for experienced hands. One shoe size fits all just does not work.
Will happily help in this regard!!
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Creative Director
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Why not trial this....trial a new AP in which you bring out an 8-10 book AP with a slower levelling but with each book richer in design and advice. In teaching we call this differentiated. Material for newbs. Material for experienced hands. One shoe size fits all just does not work.
When we did Council of Thieves, an Adventure Path that went up to about 13th level (the lowest end level we've done yet), the reader reaction was more or less unanimously displeasure. People don't like Adventure Paths that don't hit higher level.
A "teaching" adventure aimed at teaching the GM how to adapt the adventure for his table is an excellent idea though, but not something that I'd want to try on the Adventure Paths, which already have a VERY successful formula that I do not want to tinker with in this particular way.
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One day James will have to explain to me what "moderate experience" means to him, so that I can compare my baseline against his. :p
A "teaching" adventure aimed at teaching the GM how to adapt the adventure for his table is an excellent idea though, but not something that I'd want to try on the Adventure Paths, which already have a VERY successful formula that I do not want to tinker with in this particular way.
I didn't mean that - but yes - I am sure that would be useful for new GMs.
I am more interested, from a selfish viewpoint, in having encounter designs created as I mentioned above, and in regards to more differentiation, to having side-bars with advice - there could be different types - one for newbs, and one for GMs of 'moderate experience' and another for grognards... or ??
At the moment quite a few of us are finding the AP encounters to be far too easy (as usual!!)
Again - this advice would be welcome in any format - in the printed book, in the pdf, as web-support.
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Creative Director
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One day James will have to explain to me what "moderate experience" means to him, so that I can compare my baseline against his. :p
It's hard to quantify...
But "moderate experience" more or less means players and a GM who have been playing together regularly in a group for 6 months to a year. They know each other's quirks and play styles, and are perhaps ready to start branching out into building characters using things other than the Core Rules.
Once you have players who have gamed together for years, have completed a few Adventure Paths, or are comfortable building characters using a wide range of books beyond the Core Rulebook, they are no longer moderately experienced at the game, but are increasingly experts at the game.
And it should go without saying that the more experienced at the game the players are than the GM is, the more profound the player experience will be and the greater it will affect game play.
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Creative Director
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A "teaching" adventure aimed at teaching the GM how to adapt the adventure for his table is an excellent idea though, but not something that I'd want to try on the Adventure Paths, which already have a VERY successful formula that I do not want to tinker with in this particular way.I didn't mean that - but yes - I am sure that would be useful for new GMs.
I am more interested, from a selfish viewpoint, in having encounter designs created as I mentioned above, and in regards to more differentiation, to having side-bars with advice - there could be different types - one for newbs, and one for GMs of 'moderate experience' and another for grognards... or ??
At the moment quite a few of us are finding the AP encounters to be far too easy (as usual!!)
Again - this advice would be welcome in any format - in the printed book, in the pdf, as web-support.
And that's exactly what I meant. A "teaching adventure" would provide advice not to the GM on how to run the game for the players (that'd be a teaching adventure for players, not the GM), but advice on how to adjust and adapt the adventure for his/her own group.
In any event, in the lack of such an adventure... that's kind of the whole point of our messageboards here. They provide a great place for GMs to share their tricks and advice.
And that's exactly what I meant. A "teaching adventure" would provide advice not to the GM on how to run the game for the players (that'd be a teaching adventure for players, not the GM), but advice on how to adjust and adapt the adventure for his/her own group.
Gotcha!
In any event, in the lack of such an adventure... that's kind of the whole point of our messageboards here. They provide a great place for GMs to share their tricks and advice.
Indeed. Which is why running a Paizo game is so much easier since loads of other folks chip in to bring it alive/ make it happen. Sadly when I am running a game, it is such an effort to get the energy to run it, I fail to give feedback on how it is going... it is only in the downtimes between running games that I have a chance.... am very much interested in this AP - so far it seems the most coherent storyline to date - its design I think reflects how much you guys have been learning from previous ones (eg creating some npcs pcs interact with in the first 2 books at least - and that there are consequences for how they interact).... all good.
I am keen to avoid the last debacles that I had with running Kingmaker and Carrion Crown. Too many design faults and too many encounters that will never work with a party of players who understand Pathfinder. Unless you guys can help me run Pathfinder for clued up guys with their heads screwed on, then it becomes less and less tenable for me run your APs - they involved too much change.....
I hope this can happen - since I really like PF and I am the only one who can face running it!
It depends on the group, James. My tabletop group meets if I'm lucky six times in a year and that's with my heavily pushing to meet. I'm strongly tempted to just sit back and not do a thing and see if the game just dies like I think it would. And at this point I don't think I'd rightly care.
But my Skype group? We meet every three to four weeks and we've gotten a bit done. Despite that, and we've been gaming for a year now, we're only close to ending Book 2 of Runelords. I don't know if your group meets weekly... but even with a weekly get-together my old group only made it through Night Below in a couple of years (admittedly with added content as I wasn't giving out XPs for GPs as recommended and thus went with side quests to boost XPs).
One day James will have to explain to me what "moderate experience" means to him, so that I can compare my baseline against his. :pIt's hard to quantify...
But "moderate experience" more or less means players and a GM who have been playing together regularly in a group for 6 months to a year. They know each other's quirks and play styles, and are perhaps ready to start branching out into building characters using things other than the Core Rules.
Once you have players who have gamed together for years, have completed a few Adventure Paths, or are comfortable building characters using a wide range of books beyond the Core Rulebook, they are no longer moderately experienced at the game, but are increasingly experts at the game.
And it should go without saying that the more experienced at the game the players are than the GM is, the more profound the player experience will be and the greater it will affect game play.
Well, that explains a lot. The two groups I am running games with are both compromised of players who have been playing the game since even before I started actively playing (group one and that means more than 15 years) and who started playing with 3.0 (group two). And they all have experience with several other roleplaying systems (Shadowrun, Rolemaster, Star Wars Saga, White Wolf systems, etc).
So, of course I see those players as experienced. "Moderately experienced" would have been for me people who have finished at least one AP and thus would know what to expect for high level play, since they have experienced it once. What you describe would be novices for my consideration.
Mind you, my perspective is of course skewed by being a veteran of the hobby (and not even one of the first generation, but still).
Now, I am very interested what you guys have planned for the last two modules, especially the last one. Because combat gets so exponentially complicated there that stat blocks alone must be a chore to create, let alone taking into account all of the countertactics player characters will have available in the highest level bracket. I tell you, using the Battle of Hoth, with the player characters as the AT-AT's and Star Destroyers and the opposition as the Rebel Alliance, would be a good model for the final fight. Invincible deflector shields around Deskari until the PC's take down the shield generators. And Deskari gets to use a giant Ion Cannon as long as that hasn't happened. ;)
Oh, and by the way, I hope you do another level 1-20 AP in the next years, without mythic skewing the whole dynamic. I'd be very interested to see how you guys handle "normal" highest level encounters.
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Also, thanks for the correction by Revan, I modified the stat block a bit... it's weaker than I thought it'd be but still maintains the basic line of being more of a glass cannon - more damage than original build, laughably low AC and considerably lower HP.
Marhevok Grunhuld-Wintersun
Bloodrager (abyssal) 11
speed: 40 ft. initiative: +2 Senses: perception +13
HP: 126 AC: 18 (touch 10, flat footed 17) Saves: FORT +12, WILL +7, REF +7
CMB: +20 CMD: 31
Defensive abilities: improved uncanny dodge, DR 2/-, resist fire, cold and acid 5
Attacks: flaming claws + 17/+17 (2d6 + 15 +1d6 fire, 19-20/*2). Haste adds another +17 attack if taking a full attack action!
Special attacks: greater bloodrage (26 rounds/day), bloodrage powers (claws, demonic bulk, demon resistence)
Spells: (bloodline spells marked with *)
1st level (DC: 12, 3/day): enlarge person, jump, magic missile, shield, burning hands, cause fear*
2nd level (DC: 13, 1/day): burning gaze, pyrotechnics, darkness, levitate, bull's strength*
3rd level (DC:14, 1/day): haste, wind wall, arcane sight
Tactics: assume he casts shield before combat, and haste on the first round in addition to raging. Haste already calculated into stats, as are shield and all the bloodrage powers. Can use darkness to confuse. Attempts to focus down one opponent to get a use out of dreadful carnage.
Gear: amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of armor +3, decanter of endless water, ring of protection +1, unholy symbol of baphomet with an inscription in abyssal that reads "Jerribeth".
Special qualities: fast movement, blood casting
Feats: toughness, power attack, dodge, lightning reflexes, intimidating prowess, improved critical (claw), weapon focus (claw), iron will, dreadful carnage
Ability scores: STR 26, CON 20, DEX 12, WIS 8, INT 10, Cha 13
I will point out that "Crypt of the Everflame" is an EXCELLENT teaching adventure, both for GMs and for players. A similar adventure for mid levels and for high levels could be a great idea!
Indeed - by creating such an adventure for mid levels and high levels, it may help your designers reflect on the demands and problems by a GM in running PF at these levels. & help us too!!!
Like Magnuskn, my group are a bunch of 'veterans'. We have all been playing RPGs since our teens.... and 3/5 of us are in our 40s. The guys have played a lot of games systems (currently WFRP2 - the new Enemy Within, with our Winter 'StuCon 2013' likely to feature a whole slew of other games such as Nights Black Agents and Deadlands Noir as one-shots). One of our group is, like Gygax was, an actuary - a maths wiz - which is helpful. Whilst I am the only one who is prepared to run the - let's face it - mathematical density that is PF, especially at higher levels, I can only do so with their help. Plus now with the help of HeroLab.
Getting decent advice for how to handle 8-13th level play, and 14+ would be great.
I had never run any AD&D games beyond level 9 before running Kingmaker. Seemingly its designer hadn't either!! My group had tamed the Giant Roc in Book 3 (?) and also gone on a side-quest (sandboxing) and got hold of some pegasi companions. Thus Books 4 & 5 were nerfed for a variety of reasons: The party scried and fried Irovetti in his boudoir (book 5?), they flew over Book 4 (thus the wilderness the players are meant to walk/ travel through - bypassed!) Thus the designers for Levels 8+ must start thinking different - and designing different games.
- pc travel modes change
- npcs will know pcs can scry and fry- so powerful ones will
a) try and avoid this - have this in the book
b) have spy networks to identify threats to them (pcs) and take them out (develop this too)
etc etc
to be honest - I really think there could be a great book here in compiling advice from Grognards, with their solutions - to this - speed bumps at different levels - from Level 9+ for example.
And just as there is a dearth of decent advice, let alone encounter design/ story design for high level play (the consensus in my group is that there is a sweet spot for D&D about levels 5-9 - after which the wheels start to come off!!).... Mythic Play will throw more curved balls - particularly at higher level play....thus more advice on how to handle this also appreciated!! & cope with the extra options and maths.
I will probably still run some Mythic at some point.... not sure if I can run another AP as is...the gamers - and me - want to play sandbox style play...thus at best the APs are probably going to be sources of ideas/ encounters/ villains to loot as needs be. intend to run Razor Coast next - since I am hoping its design will help me reflect more about how to design a sandbox style campaign which is manageable.
I have a question about the adventure. Is jasker's shrine inside of Dresden? The reason I ask is because it's marked under the tomb which is kinda far for a single priest to be living by himself.
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Creative Director
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Oh, and by the way, I hope you do another level 1-20 AP in the next years, without mythic skewing the whole dynamic. I'd be very interested to see how you guys handle "normal" highest level encounters.
Unlikely to happen without us cheating some way and giving out a LOT of XP or starting an AP at 7th or 9th level or something like that. In any event... a "normal" encounter for a 20th level party wouldn't be all that different than some of the big encounters you see in a typical last installment of an AP anyway.
Unlikely to happen without us cheating some way and giving out a LOT of XP or starting an AP at 7th or 9th level or something like that. In any event... a "normal" encounter for a 20th level party wouldn't be all that different than some of the big encounters you see in a typical last installment of an AP anyway.
To be honest, aside from the "free" sixth level in The Worldwound Incursion, you were pretty good at giving out those faster paced level-ups, without unduly overtaxing the CR system. I think you could do that for a whole AP, but I understand that the normal process also has its advantages.
As for the last three to four levels of the game, IMO having level eight and nine spells at your disposal regularly alone changes the landscape enormously. But we'll see how the encounters look for the last module of this AP. I'm quite excited for that and the other two to come. :)
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As for the last three to four levels of the game, IMO having level eight and nine spells at your disposal regularly alone changes the landscape enormously. But we'll see how the encounters look for the last module of this AP. I'm quite excited for that and the other two to come. :)
Yeah. Discussing this with a friend, he asked the question of "Why wouldn't you Create Greater Demiplane with dead magic, put all the melee people in there, then with a crazy high DC Wish Deskari in there. Mythic recast it a few times if necessary. Without access to his spells and SU abilities, it should be a lot easier to kill him."
Now, granted, he's not playing in my game. But I do hope Deskari has some sort of protection against something like that.
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Unlikely to happen without us cheating some way and giving out a LOT of XP or starting an AP at 7th or 9th level or something like that. In any event... a "normal" encounter for a 20th level party wouldn't be all that different than some of the big encounters you see in a typical last installment of an AP anyway.To be honest, aside from the "free" sixth level in The Worldwound Incursion, you were pretty good at giving out those faster paced level-ups, without unduly overtaxing the CR system. I think you could do that for a whole AP, but I understand that the normal process also has its advantages.
As for the last three to four levels of the game, IMO having level eight and nine spells at your disposal regularly alone changes the landscape enormously. But we'll see how the encounters look for the last module of this AP. I'm quite excited for that and the other two to come. :)
That's because at lower levels, it's a lot easier to fit more encounters in. In fact, if you'll look at most of our adventures, it's not uncommon for the first in an AP to get PCs to 5th level. Keep in mind that as far as Mythic Tiers speeding the XP earned, that doesn't even START to kick in until the 2nd adventure.
And we've assumed that the PCs have had 8th level spells for pretty much all of our final adventures, and often they get 9th level ones by the end.
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As for the last three to four levels of the game, IMO having level eight and nine spells at your disposal regularly alone changes the landscape enormously. But we'll see how the encounters look for the last module of this AP. I'm quite excited for that and the other two to come. :)Yeah. Discussing this with a friend, he asked the question of "Why wouldn't you Create Greater Demiplane with dead magic, put all the melee people in there, then with a crazy high DC Wish Deskari in there. Mythic recast it a few times if necessary. Without access to his spells and SU abilities, it should be a lot easier to kill him."
Now, granted, he's not playing in my game. But I do hope Deskari has some sort of protection against something like that.
Because that is a really really really lame and anticlimactic conclusion to a story that breaks rules. Remember, wish can only do what the GM lets it do. Remember, Deskari can do wishes as well—ALL demon lords more or less can in their home plane. So if this worked... it would have already worked because Deskari would have done this very same thing to the PCs when they were, say, 15th level.
And frankly, even without his magic and supernatural abilities, Deskari would be really tough.
There is one possible alternative. You could create a six-book AP that runs PCs up to 18th level (using the Fast Advancement rules). Then have a Module crafted for levels 18-20 characters that can either be a stand-alone story, or attached to the end if the GM so chooses.
An example of this is in "The Witchwar Legacy" - a GM could, if so interested, adjust the end of Reign of Winter so that Elvanna (or however you spell her name) fled rather than be killed. The PCs are forced to go after her, while ice starts to spread across the land, and get involved in that module. However, doing this with Witchwar would require a bit of rewriting. This would be crafting a module that can instead be used as a sequel or a self-standing story.
Mind you, I've no idea how you'd do something like this or if it's even possible. I'm just tossing ideas out. And personally, I don't mind Mythic! I'd love to see another Mythic AP going from levels 1-20 - or even a Mythic adventure that doesn't have all 10 Mythic Tiers! And really, the GM can modify any AP, leveling up PCs by fiat and increasing foes to compensate if he or she so chooses. So any adventure can go to level 20... if the GM wants it to and is willing to put in the work to make it do this.
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There is one possible alternative. You could create a six-book AP that runs PCs up to 18th level (using the Fast Advancement rules). Then have a Module crafted for levels 18-20 characters that can either be a stand-alone story, or attached to the end if the GM so chooses.
An example of this is in "The Witchwar Legacy" - a GM could, if so interested, adjust the end of Reign of Winter so that Elvanna (or however you spell her name) fled rather than be killed. The PCs are forced to go after her, while ice starts to spread across the land, and get involved in that module. However, doing this with Witchwar would require a bit of rewriting. This would be crafting a module that can instead be used as a sequel or a self-standing story.
Mind you, I've no idea how you'd do something like this or if it's even possible. I'm just tossing ideas out. And personally, I don't mind Mythic! I'd love to see another Mythic AP going from levels 1-20 - or even a Mythic adventure that doesn't have all 10 Mythic Tiers! And really, the GM can modify any AP, leveling up PCs by fiat and increasing foes to compensate if he or she so chooses. So any adventure can go to level 20... if the GM wants it to and is willing to put in the work to make it do this.
This is not really possible because the market for such a module is exceedingly tiny - most potential customers are people who already played through the entire AP and there are not many of those. Not only that, but most people might get tired of a campaign after wrapping the main story up, and decide not to continue those extra 2 levels just for the sake of reaching 20. So the product is not going to sell well (high level modules don't, as a rule, and this one you are suggesting has much more baggage).
Not even to mention that a 2 level module will not fit into any of Paizo's current publication lines.
I rebuilt the stat block for Vang. When I have a chance to pull it off the PDF character sheet I used and put it in a more standard text format I'll post my changes here, and his updated spell list. I want to account for a few of the more interesting suggestions people have mentioned thus far.
This is not really possible because the market for such a module is exceedingly tiny - most potential customers are people who already played through the entire AP and there are not many of those. Not only that, but most people might get tired of a campaign after wrapping the main story up, and decide not to continue those extra 2 levels just for the sake of reaching 20. So the product is not going to sell well (high level modules don't, as a rule, and this one you are suggesting has much more baggage).
Not even to mention that a 2 level module will not fit into any of Paizo's current publication lines.
I think you are way too pessimistic about this idea. Paizo has done highest-level modules in the past (The Witchwar Legacy springs to mind) and you can write that level 17-20 (or 18-20) module as a stand-alone which has the plug-in option for the associated AP and put the "alternate ending, buy this module if you want to play the last levels" option into the "After the campaign" section of the sixth module.
I think Tangents idea would be a very viable way to get those last levels into the AP rotation, without destroying the "six modules" model. Putting out another support book (which always surround an AP's release) should probably be possible. It would also give the people who clamor for highest level support something to be happy about. You don't have to do it for every AP, IMO, but some really deserve it.
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As for the last three to four levels of the game, IMO having level eight and nine spells at your disposal regularly alone changes the landscape enormously.
You'd think so. Until you're playing 18th level mages who suddenly find an immediate need for wands of Arcane Mark (which no one has prepared), Reduce Person (to make Titan's Bane from the Trickster Path more useful), and Acid Orb (because the Evoker doesn't want to waste magic missiles to finish off a foe). And you find you're summoning your extraplanar celebrity shopper to find these things right quick (there's a fee for speed), and laughing about archmages being foiled by cantrips. :)
Actually yes, a Wish can very likely do this. But this is a Demon Lord who is an extremely Mythic being that is just short of being a God in power. It very likely brings its own magic with it. Thus I could see it having full magical abilities that function despite the magic-dead area. Meanwhile, the PCs have absolutely no magic, and no magic weapons that could penetrate its damage resistance.
Mind you, this also means the Demon Lord can wish for someone's heart in its hand. This would be at full difficulty level for the Demon Lord's attack, and could even be enacted as a Will Save by the wording of the Wish. Since Melee-heavy PCs often have very low Will saves, we're talking someone with a +6 to +10 Will save, maybe. Can you say Instant Death?
If the players are going to be stupid enough to do something like this, I'm going to make them pay for this stupidity.
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Remember, wish can only do what the GM lets it do.If I may politely disagree, wish can indeed do that. The "transport travelers" clause (picks the target up and deposits them at the destination regardless of any local conditions) is automatically within the bounds of a safe wish, so there's no automatic risk of GM adjudication like there is for "greater effects" clauses if you're going to wishport yourselves around (or offensively wishport somebody else). You'd still have to eat the 25,000gp component cost, of course, but the GM would need to fiat it away entirely with a houserule for their table.
Well, if I were the GM and you wanted to transport travelers to a dead magic realm, I'd say it didn't work anyway, since the realm has no magic and couldn't support the formation of the far end of a teleportation like that.
If you're okay with disrupting the end of a campaign for this kind of climax, then by all means, go for it. But at the very least check out how the end is scripted in the adventure.
At the very least, Deskari is VERY smart and has likely plotted for this possibility, even if I have not in the adventure.
I would call wishporting a Mythic Demon Lord to a magic dead plane a "Greater Effect" for wish. Sure it's part of the safe wish list, but when you start to afflict creatures of a certain power, you start invoking energies that are far beyond the scope of what the spell can safely handle.
When you cast Wish, you are effectively paying a 25,000gp bribe for the magic gods to do your bidding, and at a certain point I as a DM am unlikely to allow that to cover the cost. A larger donation might get what you want. I might also have the magical energy generated by hurling a Mythic Demon Lord through the bonds of reality cause some serious issues, like introduce magic to that magic-dead plane. Or disrupt the area so much that the plane destabilizes and all of its inhabitants are shunted to a random plane somewhere together.
The DM is the final arbiter of whether or not a Wish can succeed or screw over the players. If my players tried something like this, I would definitely screw with them. When the idea is that your Mythic Power gives you the strength to bring down the Lord of the Locust Host and you attempt to rig the fight so that your Mythic abilities play almost no part in it, you can rest assured that things are going to go wrong.
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Wouldn't the Demon Lord get both a will save and SR to avoid the transportation? And would the dead magic affect him, the PRD states it behaves in all respects as an antimagic field, which doesn't affect artifacts and deities, not sure if Demon Lords count as deities for this affect though.
Wish -
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/wish.html#_wish
Dead Magic -
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/planarAdventures.html#_dead-magi c
As a demigod, a demon lord would absolutely behave the same way as a deity with regards to things like antimagic fields.
Yes. The latter was saved because he had an artifact of a God protecting him. The PCs aren't nearly that lucky.
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Lord Snow,
My apologies in the delay in replying to your question. You wondered what I thought of Marhevok as a bloodrager instead of a barbarian with the fiend totem.
I think that is a wonderful idea for a playtest.
The only alternative I can think of is perhaps just a few levels of abyssal bloodline sorcerer mixed with a lot of brawler. While Marhevok is supposed to be a barbarian in theme, he doesn't have to be one literally—he could just be a ruthless and bad tempered brute with a heritage he doesn't understand and has been manipulated by a superior and seductive mind.
Or keep your bloodrager. I think its a good test, and I wouldn't worry about the drop in AC. He really didn't have a good one to begin with, plus you've given him the option to cast shield.
Also that encounter isn't set up to be a straight fight anyway.
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Here is the modified statistics block I intend to use for Xanthir Vang. If anybody sees any glaring errors or wishes to offer critique I am all ears. This stat block assumes he has cast Augmented Mythic Fly, Shield, False Life and Energy Resistance prior to his confrontation with the PC's.
Xanthir Vang
CR: 17 - XP: 102,400
Male Human Worm That Walks Conjurer 8/Blackfire Adept 4/Archmage 6
CE Medium Vermin (Augmented Human)
Init +22, Senses Blindsight 30ft, Darkvision 60ft, Perception +21
DEFENSE
AC 37, Touch 28, Flat Footed 25 (+5 Armor, +5 Deflection, +6 Dex, +6 Dodge, +1 Insight, +4 Shield)
HP 185 (12HD; +72 Maxed HD/+60 Con/+8 Favored Class/+12 Toughness/+18 Archmage/+15 Temporary); Fast Healing 17
Fort 12, Ref 19, Will 13
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Hard to Kill, Mythic Saving Throws, Worm That Walks Traits; DR 15/--; Immune Critical Hits, Disease, Flanking, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep; Resist Fire 30; SR 18
Weaknesses Worm That Walks Weaknesses
OFFENSE
Speed 30ft., Fly 120ft. (Perfect)
Melee Slam +5 (d4-1 plus Grab)
Special Attacks Arcane Surge, Blackfire Pact, Discorporate, Distraction (DC 22), Force of Will, Grab (Large), Mythic Power (15/day, Surge 1d8), Mythic Spellpower, Speedy Summons, Squirming Embrace (3d6-1 Damage plus Distraction), Tenacious
Blackfire Adept Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th, Concentration +12)
At Will - Blackfire Eruption
Conjurer Spell Like Abilities (CL 11th, Concentration +22)
At Will - Dimensional Steps (240 ft./day)
14/day - Acid Dart (1d6+4 acid)
Conjurer Spells Prepared
6-(4+1) Disintegrate(DC 27), Repulsion(DC 27), Sirocco(DC 27), Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron
5-(5+1) Cloudkill(DC 29), Cone of Cold x2(DC 26), Telekinesis(Mythic-1rnd/lvl), Teleport, Summon Monster V
4-(6+1) Dimension Door x2, Earth Glide, Enervation, Greater invisibility, Phantasmal Killer(DC 25), Scorching Ray(Empowered)
3-(8+1) Dispel Magic x2(Mythic), Displacement, Fireball x3(DC 24), Fly(Mythic-120ft/+6Ref/+6AC), Slow(DC 24), Spiked Pit(DC 27)
2-(8+1) False Life, Glitterdust x2(DC 26), Resist Energy, Scorching Ray x4(Mythic-6d6/ray), Web(Mythic-Swarms/DC 26)
1-(8+1) Grease x2(DC 25), Magic Missile x5(Mythic-2d4+1x5), Shield x2
0-(At Will) Bleed(DC 21), Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Message
Opposition Scools Divination, Enchantment
Statistics
Str 8, Dex 22, Con 21, Int 32, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Attack +6; CMB +5 (+13 Grapple); CMD 33 (37 vs. Grapple)
Feats Diehard, Toughness, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration), Empower Spell, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sacred Summons, Improved Initiative
Mythic Feats* Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative
Skills** Acrobatics +6, Appraise +11, Bluff +12, Climb -1, Craft (Alchemy) +26, Diplomacy +0, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +6, Fly +26, Heal +1, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Engineering, Geography, History, Local, Planes, Religion) +26, Linguistics +26, Perform +0, Ride +6, Sense Motive +21, Spellcraft +26, Stealth +26, Survival +1, Swim -1
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Common, Hallit, Necril, 12 more from Linguistics (Basically whatever the hell he wants)
SQ*** Amazing Initiative, Arcane Bond (Staff of Conjuration), Blackfire Taint, Contingency, Mythic Path Abilities (Crafting Mastery, Speedy Summons, Mythic Spellcasting, Mythic Spellpower, Mirror Dodge, Channel Power), Recuperation, Summoners Charm (4 Rounds), Wealthy
Combat Gear Maximize Metamagic Rod, Quicken Metamagic Rod, Scroll of Greater Dispel Magic, Scroll of Limited Wish, Staff of Conjuration, Wand of Mirror Image (8 Charges), Unholy Water (4); Other Gear Belt of Physical Might +4 (Dex/Con), Black Robe of the Archmagi, Headband of Vast Intellect +6 (Bluff, Sense Motive, Fly), Ring of Evasion, Ring of Protection +5, Adamantite Key worth 1,800gp (Opens the door to area Q19), Bejeweled Key worth 1,000gp (Opens the secret door into area Q12a), Iron key (Opens all doors in the Ivory Sanctum except those to area Q12a and Q19), Contingency Statuette worth 3,500gp.
Special Abilities
Blackfire Eruption (Sp) Xanthir can sacrifice a prepared spell of 4th level or higher to create a searing ebon vortex. This effect functions as unholy blight, but its maximum damage is increased by 1d8 points (2d6 against good outsiders) per level of the sacrificed spell above 4th. It ignores hardness if targeted against objects. A creature slain or object destroyed by this effect crumbles to ash. This is a conjuration effect.
Blackfire Pact (Su) As a standard action, Xanthir can create a resonance between himself and a target within 30 feet. He gains a +1 profane bonus on attack rolls and caster level checks against the target, and the target takes a –1 penalty on saves against his attacks and spells (–2 against conjuration effects). This effect lasts for 4 rounds (Will DC 14 save reduces to 1 round), and the effect ends if the target moves more than 30 feet away from Xanthir.
Blackfire Taint (Su) Xanthir gains a +1 profane bonus on saving throws, caster level checks, Charisma checks, and Charisma-based skill checks against demons. Demons he conjures via planar binding or similar effects gain +4 temporary hit points, a +1 profane bonus on saving throws, and a +1 profane bonus to resist being banished—these demons are indicated in the adventure text as appropriate.
Contingency If Xanthir is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, his contingency spell activates a false life on him.
Wealthy**** Xanthir has the wealth of a PC of equal level—this increases his CR by +1.
*Concerning Mythic Feats - I do not know when Vang gained his mythic tiers. I do not know if he was Mythic before becoming a Worm That Walks, or after. I am assuming he has the prerequisites for the Mythic Feats he is taking when he gains each tier that grants him a feat.
**Concerning Skills - I listed every skill he can use untrained regardless of whether or not I gave him ranks in it. I used the skill list in his original stat block as a guide for allocating skill ranks. I realize that the Level 4/8/12 and Mythic Tier 2/4/6 increases to his Intelligence do not retroactively grant him skill points, however I simply gave him skill points as if he had Intelligence of 26 from level 1. This was done for ease of calculation and to give him a little extra edge if he needs to use a skill. I'm not positive if I missed anything that would give him a bonus or a penalty but I tried to account for everything important.
***Concerning SQ - I may have missed a few of his abilities that should be listed here. He is a relatively complex build.
****Concerning wealth - It appears that the designers gave him wealth based on his CR, not on his HD otherwise he has FAR more gear listed than he could hope to afford for a 12th level PC, even given his crafting of magic items. With this in mind, I have made some adjustments to his gear, most notably adding the Belt of Physical Might +4, upping the Lesser Rod of Metamagic Maximize to a standard Rod and swapping his Ring of Greater Fire Resistance for a Ring of Evasion. If anyone has any other suggestions I am fully willing to give him additional gear seeing as I did increase his CR by 1 when I added 2 Mythic Tiers to his build.
His list of Spells Known has been modified slightly to include the spells he currently has prepared. Mythic versions of the spells are listed on his prepared list as an optional upgrade at the time of casting along with their effect.
There are a number of good tactical options that have been discussed so far including trapping the entrance to his room (or various locations throught the keep) with dispelling traps, or other traps designed to use resources, and having him take the fight to the PC's instead of waiting for them to come to him. I gave him Earth Glide as a spell known (and one on his list of prepared spells) so he can send the Retrievers at the PC's as soon as he has buffed, then join the fight shortly after. I may increase the size of the keep a bit and add some features to benefit his mobility and unique qualities like Blindsight. Once in combat I intend to follow the listed tactics somewhat closely, but leave the PC's fewer openings to exploit. Hopefully these changes will give my players more of an epic and cinematic experience from an otherwise static and underwhelming encounter.
I may also give similar treatment to other creatures in the keep and add mythic ranks to some of the monsters. I want this to be a high point in the campaign and I'm not above forcing my players to retreat and rest a few times before finally coming out on top. Hopefully if my players are outclassed early on they will be smart enough to see it and act accordingly instead of just soldiering on and getting killed.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Additionally Read Magic is on the stat block in the module so I did not feel the need to change it.
As for his contingency...
...I want to find a better use for it as well, though I am not 100% certain for what. I almost want to have Vang have the potential to escape the party if possible, so if I could find a way to increase his Caster Level by 1 I could do Dimension Door at 0 HP and have him teleport somewhere safe, then flee. He would still drop all of his gear from discorporation, leaving the party his loot but he would potentially survive and allow the party to encounter him again, possibly after he has re-established himself later and gained a few levels and other nasty abilities.