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Well, I'm not sure if "abyssal energies" is enough cause to necessitate an atonement spell, but that's your campaign and however you rule it is fine.magnus: Because I ruled by the time they got the scrying done and Teleport scrolls found, Irabeth had been under the ritual for 20+ hours, so she'd been exposed to a lot of Abyssal energy that was invading her soul.
And mainly because the party cleric didn't think to try Dispel Evil, which would have worked as well.
Like I said, Dispel Evil would have worked as well (and it's the cleric's domain spell!) but they didn't think of it. If they wanted to spend an hour casting it I was willing to allow it to drive the energies from her body as well.
For my understanding, I don't think smite would work since it says 'a target' and a swarm is composed of thousands of targets being a swarm. Could be wrong though. Haven't got to that point yet, so being corrected before then if that is the case would be appreciated.
I let smite evil work on swarms, but only b/c I was trying not to TPK in the vescavor cavern (suffice it to say that they were WOEFULLY unprepared, despite lots of foreshadowing and early notice).
Do people have Arueshalae accompany the PCs into the Sanctum as the AP suggests? That would seem to make all the fights fairly trivial.
Do people have Arueshalae accompany the PCs into the Sanctum as the AP suggests? That would seem to make all the fights fairly trivial.
I think the module assumes the party will allow Arushalae to accompany them into the Sanctum. Depending on the power level of the individual players in your campaign this may or may not matter.
An underpowered group that does not min/max could certainly use the added DPR Boost where a group of more experienced players may already be so far ahead of the curve that including her won't really matter anyway. It's a pretty narrow band of players that are right in the power curve of the module and including another Mythic PC level character would trivialize all of the encounters, so I don't see it as much of an issue.
Personally I plan to have Arushalae accompany the party anywhere they ask, and have her level with the group regardless of what the module assumes. I like her character enough that I want to utilize her wherever possible, and the power dynamic in my group has shifted enough that I think she would be an asset, especially using Sc8rpi8n's updated stat blocks for enemies.
So, I have a PC that acquired the Talisman of Pure Good...and now wants to take the Feat Catch off Guard and use the talisman as a sort of touch weapon against evil creatures. Any thoughts?
The talisman has one charge, and as an Artifact I refused to allow my Orphan to recharge it.
What does your PC think touching an evil creature with the talisman will do?
He's planning on touching evil divine spellcasters. =( I don't think by its description that the touch uses a charge.
"If a neutral (LN, N, CN) divine spellcaster touches one of these stones, he takes 6d6 points of damage per round of contact. If an evil divine spellcaster touches one, he takes 8d6 points of damage per round of contact. All other characters are unaffected by the device."
EDIT= Maybe my saving grace is that it states per round of contact? So not just a touch attack, but has to be placed against them for the entire round.
You can get suuuuper pedantic about it and say that the damage comes from touching the stone, not having it touch you (ie, the difference between picking it up and squished against your skin).
Or you can say "Look, that's clearly not the intention of the item; if you want to use it offensively, use the one free insta-kill that the item gives you instead of trying to squeeze out some rules cheese."
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I'm looking at the woundwyrm, and was wondering what exactly the maw of the abyss ability does, or at least what it's supposed to do. I get that it drags whatever is in it's cone of effect towards his mouth. But what then? Are they grappled? Drawn into some sort of chaotic pocket reality? What exactly happens?
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Okay, and the next issue that has arisen, is that the Paladin with his Oath Against Fiends is determined to kill Arueshalae. Determined. If he gets the jump on her, he might even be able to do a lot of damage too. Maybe even kill her.
How does she react to the attack?
What happens if she dies?
I'm super eager to see how things happen, and have some ideas how to react to the two situations above. This Thursday is going to be one hell of a game.
Has anyone else had issues with this? Any other groups turned on Arueshalae?
Only slightly. One of my PCs didn't like her and was vocal about it but he was browbeaten down by them. I did use it to give her the opportunity to volunteer for a geas and an atonement to placate that PC.
If she gets a chance to talk maybe that would work for your paladin. I was also able to talk the paladin in my group out of that oath for this reason.
I doubt she'd fight back or use deadly force at least, she'd probably leave. And considering that she isn't evil I doubt that a paladin could kill her quickly.
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They're outside the Forbiddance now, so that's not a concern.
And yes, technically, she is not an evil fiend, but he's playing his character pretty zealous. (Also, he wants to play the fall and rise of the paladin arc, so this is also a good opportunity to fall). As such, he's not willing to listen to a fiend, especially of a type known for their deceptive nature. His motto is "though shalt not suffer a demon to live."
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Um...given the amount of evidence there is that she's trying to reform, and that she won't even detect as Evil if anyone checks, and that she's trying to be helpful, and that she won't initiate hostilities. I'd have a Paladin fall after the first attack. That'll probably stop him.
I'd also have that be immediately visually obvious to the other PCs...which would incline them to stop him if he doesn't stop himself, I'd hope.
I don't normally advocate having Paladins fall...but attempting to murder Neutral people wearing the colors of a Good god who you know worship said Good god, who are trying to help you, definitely qualifies.
EDIT: If he's just trying to fall, maybe he'll stop as soon as it happens. If he doesn't and the other PCs don't stop him...well, she could probably manage to get away one way or another.
I'd say that he already fell. He is actively plotting evil by killing an entity that is not only actively working to redeem herself... but also by killing an ally who is working to help them overcome the Worldwound. By planning on killing Arueshalae, he is harming the entire war effort and betraying his companions (who do not wish to kill her, from what I understand).
His fall is minor. It nudges him toward either Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good (or even true Neutral). An Atonement spell would undo it, should he be willing to work toward it.
But he already Fell. He may not have run his liege lord through with a katana, but he's plotting murder. So now he's just a Fighter without the extra Feats.
Agreeing with Tangent here, only that I would even nudge him a bit towards Evil alignment. I don't stand for that kind of zero tolerance zealotry in my games.
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Oh yeah, attacking her will be a fall. Although, honestly, I'm not sure how flashy I want to make the fall. Definitely some signs that the Inquisitor of Iomedae will pick up at the least.
I just don't know if that will make him stop! He might just keep on going. Or, you know, trying to.
The group is mostly already on her side (they've had some brief interactions between waves of enemies). Even better, all the players are being really good sports about the whole situation, and they're also looking forward to role playing through the confrontation.
My thoughts are, if the worst happens and she's killed, they'll have failed the group mythic trial (since she wasn't saved, won't be able to lead them to the Ivory Sanctum, and they don't have the chance to redeem her). But, do I give them a new one to make up for it, or make them suffer? MUWAHAHAHAHAHA
ehem, I mean. No wait, I really did mean to laugh manically.
Not sure what will happen if she's attacked.
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Honestly, if the group doesn't stop the ex-paladin from killing her (which, admittedly, shouldn't happen. I doubt that she'll just stand still while getting whacked by the angry "fighter without feats" and she has a very decent AC), then I would shift their alignment down from good and fold the entire campaign. I've got no interest in characters which would allow this kind of BS to happen.
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I've already got a few other players lobbying contingency plans. What he'd need to do, realistically, to kill her is get really lucky on a crit and use his last foe bitter of the day and pull whatever other tricks he can out of his very clever hat before the rest of the party (except maybe the CG wizard, who probably doesn't care all that much...) tackle him to the ground, and stop him. And again, while the player knows full well that this is an adventure hook, I think he really does see it as a great place to fall, and is playing the character as genuinely thinking this is a trap, and being to head strong to try and see any signs that it might not be (which, normally, I'd be providing, except for his stated character goals). All the players are looking forward to this chance to heavily role play the encounter.
And keep in mind, the Paladin is a respected member of the party, a brave champion on the front line, who's counseled the other characters in hard times. In the early parts of the campaign, he insisted on taking prisoners when possible. However, the insane fervor of the cults, Nurah's sabotage not being punished as the law demands (being hung till she's dead, the Oracle is trying to help her be redeemed), has made him harder, and less merciful. Less in touch with his goddess. A tad more lawful than good, But never outside the strictures of his code. And he just does not suffer a fiend to live. Which is a big departure from the more "flirting with evil" characters he usually plays.
It's going to end in a delightful debate between the players on the subject of redemption, already a hot button because of Nurah. Honestly, I think most of the next game is going to be role playing though the encounter, and talking the Paladin (or perhaps ex-paladin) down.
So, yeah Mag, I agree, if the rest of the party just let it happen, it'd be time to fold up the game, as they're not getting, in any way, the important theme of redemption that is supposed to be a part of this Path. I'm looking forward to seeing it play out. And am genuinely curious if any other groups out there ran into this issue as well.
Well, I'll be interested to hear how it turned out. :)
Just as a thought, or so you are thinking about it... have you read Midnight Isles yet? Your paladin is going to have severe issues there, also why I didn't allow that oath. I think he is in character by wanting her dead and if his deity is Iomedea then she may not care if he does kill her, or punish him, given even the basics of how she is portrayed later.
I wish my PCs had made a bigger deal out of this as it would be easy to build up the fact that demons don't change, that they are all evil. But they all accepted it and moved on.
As a good or bad side of titling, one of my PCs guessed what a Demon's Heresy would be before we even started the AP, if only he cared about RPing.
Small note: His Smite attack should fail as she's not Evil. And it is Smite Evil, not Smite Chaos! I could also see her Goddess intervening - especially as she ALREADY intervened once to help her convert escape. (Don't forget she doesn't die 'til she goes negative twice her Constitution - for that matter, most Mythic foes don't. Something that my players for the Reign of Winter campaign may not have realized... seeing that the final strike against a Mythic Radosek only brought him to -19 hit points. Heh heh heh.)
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I will most certainly share how this plot point unfolds.
Him falling is going to make Midnight Isles a bit easier I think. Or not, depending on how the character takes his fall. And if I had a better picture in my head of what paths this campaign would go down when I only had book one, I think I would have not allowed that Oath either. But, here I am, and it was allowed, so now I just need to roll with it! I've been really happy with both my groups for how they're RPing this campaign. They've been really solid.
And the inability to smite evil on her is most certainly something I've been keeping in mind!
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Game is about to start. Comments are flying around the table, and her outlook is grim.
Some choice comments:
The paladin:
-Desna's a crackpot! She was probably fooled!
-(the player) I know she's genuine, don't doubt it. 100% we're not being fooled.
-(another player) You're still going to murder her?
-(paladin's player again) Hell yes!
Inquisitor:
-Even if she is fooling us, my fatal flaw is ignorance...
Generally...
-Oh man, she's gonna die...
Game is starting in...
5...
4...
3...
2..............
I have no idea how he will be able to kill her even on a purely technical level. Her AC is excellent and I don't doubt that she will at least go full defense as soon as he flips out and destroys his paladinhood. Unless he just crits five times in a row with natural 20's (in that case check his dice ^^), he'd have to chew through 223 HP and an AC of about 37.
Just as a fan of stories in general I think there is a good one here about the blurred lines of morality. Good and evil switching sides, it is quite interesting to say the least.
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Been busy in school all day (class, prepping a closing argument for my trial advocacy class, trial advocacy class itself...), but will post what went down this evening. It did not go down as expected, but it was about an hour to an hour and a half of our three hour session on roleplaying. (Than the killed the Woundwyrm all to hell to wrap up the night. Still don't know that that maw of the abyss does, but it's in the past now. Out of sight, out of mind!!! ^_^)
Well, we are waiting with baited breath. Seems like she survived. :)
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Arueshalae (Shale) did survive. I figured she would (high AC and high hit points as written after all), it was only an outside chance (and a sting of good rolls) that would have really made it otherwise. However, that didn't make the question of what to do with her an easy one. And, out of our three hour game, the group probably spent about one and a half or two hours talking it out. Quotations below are paraphrased form my notes on what was said, sometimes over multiple different parts of the discussion, with a few sprinkles of dramatic license. I hope you all enjoy, I know I enjoyed running this session.
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The party was not unreasonably concerned about a demon in their midst, especially of a type that is known for trickery and deception, claiming that she had valuable information for them. For the most part, they were VERY hesitant.
However, two party members were quick to seize on to the chance of Shale being genuine. The gnome rogue, Digit, who'd been saved by her as a child and is a fellow worshiper of Desna, was happy to give the succubus the benefit of the doubt. So too was Sarena, an oracle of life, a devout follower, and daughter of, Sarenrae.
Standing apart from them, was the party's stalwart paladin of Iomedae, Xylos. A hard man, but devoted to the fight against fiends in all their forms. Looking at her, and even knowing of the ways that one can hide their alignment, he was knew that this fiend was telling the truth. After all, as they spoke, butterflies that even he knew were sacred to Desna, began to flutter gently about the succubus. So he offered her the only mercy he felt he could, the chance to prove the surety of Desna's grace. A quick and merciful end, and a chance to no longer be a damned soul, remade as a larva and coated in the very matter of the abyss.
Taken more than a bit aback, Shale declined his offer. "I am this being, caught between salvation and damnation. Even if I was willing to accept your "offer," I would not test my goddess so. And... I do not know what fate would await me as a traitor to the abyss, and not yet wholly Desna's."
The next voices to add their say to the matter where the Inquisitor, and son of, Iomedae, Gregor, and the dragon disciple, Rygar. Gregor was intrigued not only by the chance for such a great intelligence source as turned demon, but was curious to see if such a thing was even possible. While hesitant to stand apart from his trusted companion, and friend, Xylos, he also did not want the trust of his friends Digit and Sarena, potentially taken advantage of by a demon. A stance he did not hesitate to say aloud.
Shale was visibly growing more nervous by the moment. While she expected suspicion, she had hoped for less open hostility. What the draconic guardian said next almost caused her to flee.
"It. Is. A. Demon," Rygar growled, claws out, and teeth bared, perhaps even more offended that she would also profane the symbol of his deity, Desna, as well as for being among the damned. "Things like that killed my father before my eyes, and tortured my sister to death as well. Why are we even discussing this?" A sentiment that Xylos was quick to agree with, and that caused both Digit and Sarena to shift, ever so slightly, to prevent his ability to charge at Shale. Needless to say, Rygar sided with Xylos, agreeing that the best solution would be a swift end.
A pitched debate followed, Digit insisting that if they wanted to kill Shale, they'd have to go through her first. Sarena pointing out the philosophical and practical reasons for accepting her aid, and assisting her in her efforts for redemption, and offering to lay a geas on Shale to help and put the other's worries to rest. Gregor stating that if she was of genuine use to the crusade, how could they pass up this chance?
Xylos and Rygar both reminded the group of the many ways in which an alignment could be hidden. Rygar insisted that it simply could not be trusted. It was a demon, and they'd be fools to trust it. Xylos pointing out that she was, indeed, already a damned soul. She had her chances to be better in her mortal life, and she had not. She had gone into the boneyard, and stood before Phrasma, and have been cast down.
All the while, Fernando the Magnificent, Evoker extraordinary, and his magnificent monkey, hung back, curious on where this would go, and contemplating what to do about it. While he was not opposed to giving the succubus a chance, he also trusted in Xylos and Rygar, and didn't want to side with a stanger against them.
Duncan, half-orc cavalier, was a bit more familiar with not only being an outsider, but with the path of redemption, having heard his father speak of his own journey from chaotic evil to, well, less evil and probably just a chaotic. But so far he held his tongue, even though he wished to side with the succubus, seeing in her a being that needed protection from the oppressive forces of the abyss as much, if not more so, than anyone else.
And while all this was going in character, a lively debate was held around the table as well. A careful balance of the metagame knowledge of a group of experienced players, who had known that this was coming for weeks, and had done their homework. The demon hunters handbook was heavily consulted, as too were the various gods in play. Mythic abilities and class abilities were discussed. Spells and feats weighed and measured. Wide scale story and plot considerations both for, and against, trusting such a unique NPC were brought up. Discussions of party dynamics, and assurance all around that despite how heated their characters were becoming, all those at the table were having a great time. Especially the player of the paladin, who was now lamenting their choice of taking the Oath against Fiends, talking about his current character arc in his deliberate alignment struggles, and laughing about how he was sure she was being genuine, but could simply not play Xylos in a way to accept her into the group.
Like I said, close to two of our three hours of game, plus about an hour before everyone was there, talking about the situation.
Finally, back in character, Duncan spoke up.
"If she can be redeemed, if she can be taken from the abyss, we win. If she can show mortals and demons alike that even a demon is not beyond redemption, we can win. Demons could be defeated. Period. How can we not take this chance?"
With a sigh, Rygar looked at Shale and informed her that if she betrays them, he'll kill her. No second chances. She assured him, that if she slipped from the path of redemption, she would want him to. Rygar nodded, and went along with it.
Fernando shrugged, tilted his wonderful top hat, and declared that he was in this as well. She deserved a chance to prove to all that she could change if she so wished.
Finally, Xylos stood alone, looking at his companions, and hurt by their betrayal. "I've fought by your sides since the tunnels beneath Kennabres. I've bleed for you. I've died for you. I've trusted you all, even when I've disagreed with you. I've stayed my blade to give that halfling traitor a chance at redeeming herself, even if it is an escape from justice. And now you all side with a demon against me? You point out that she helped in this last fight, but I've helped you all in countless fights. But if that's your decision, fine." With no further words, he turned and left, determined to go his own way.
Shale, devastated that her presence drove away Xylos, turned to leave as well. It was Rygar though that stopped her.
"We've made our choice, and Xylos just needs some time to cool down. You leaving now won't change anything. So you might as well stay."
Shale, a little less uncertain of where she stands with the group, rejoined them.
With knowledge of where the Ivory Sanctum was located, and a new ally(?) with them, they looted the hag, and departed South, only a little behind Xylos.
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On the way South, I decided that the party passed near the lair of the Woundwyrm, and fought that. I wanted that mythic trial out of the way so that Fernando would have his tier as well. Xylos was not with them however and was far enough ahead that I didn't see an organic way to get him back into the fight, so I'm going to need to give him another trial, as I don't want to punish his character for some really good role playing. He is on his way to his personal trial however, which will mean a confrontation with the trio of vrocks. So, yes, he's going to solo a fight with 2 normal vrock's and a mythic vrock, and he's a well built character, so I give him decent odds, not great by any means, but decent. For right now, I have the paladin's player running Shale, and I'm going to give him a redacted character sheet for her next week to use until the party is reunited.
Not exactly the way I thought it would go, but a great session. Hope you all enjoyed reading about it, and sorry it ended up being so long!
Given that some other mythic trials are very, ah, ephemeral, Krinn is quite right in his suggestion.
And I'm happy that Arueshalae didn't get murdered for nothing. ^^
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I agree. I rather like that about the mythic trials as well. If nothing else, this AP has given me good examples of what does qualify as a mythic trial. Read: Almost anything, as long as it's right for the story. Which I guess is kinda "duh" but it helped me to see it in print.
I'm happy she didn't get ganked too! Or even attacked. I really did expect Xylos to open with, "I roll to hit" and a simple declaration of "I shall not suffer a fiend to live." This way was much better.
True, true. It's of course a question what the character will do now, but that's the joy of roleplaying.
I have to say that even if you didn't advance far in the module, the intense roleplaying and the sheer enjoyment of the group makes this into a win. And I suspect your group will remember THIS battle, even if no physical blows were thrown and no dice rolled. This is the stuff good roleplaying is made of.
Thank you for sharing it with us.
Yup, thanks for sharing too. One of the greatest thrills of RPing is when your players do something like this, force you to think fast and adapt.
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I'm glad the retelling has been enjoyed!
I'm hoping that this is remembered by them. It was a great session. Especially for our new player, who's running Digit (the gnome rogue). And also the way this discussion went, and the character arc of Shale's redemption, is going to make the conversation with Iomedae in book 5 have some real weight (not meaning to start any big conversation on that here, I've weighted in, and have seen the thoughts of others, and they will all be on my mind when the encounter plays out, just it fits so well into Her questions!)
I've been prepping for this for a bit, but I love how it went in directions I did not expect at all!
I suspect the answer in 'in Vang's journal', but where are the PCs supposed to learn about the Midnight Fane? I do not believe the location is mentioned anywhere by name.
It may come down to the queen pointing the PCs in the right direction.
Awesome story dude, thanks for sharing. Stuff like that is amazing to read about.
Okay: buildings and benefits. I'm going to post this here in case it sparks anyone else's creative spark as I wasn't sure what to do about this part either.
My basic thoughts were that I wanted to raise Drezen from a ruined large town up to a small city. I looked at the community differences as inspiration and wanted to throw in some low benefit freebies to my PCs.
Will spoiler this (hopefully) to avoid excess clutter.
** spoiler omitted **
My idea behind potions and scrolls is free benefits...
The building list is quite useful and I am modifying it for my purposes, but I must admit that I can't make head and tails of how exactly you organized the downtime resource generation and how the different modifiers played out ultimately in that RTS queue you were talking about. ^^
Its been a few months now, but I think all of the resource generation comes from the NPCs or I guessed.
My idea was to take Drezen from a ruined large town and cover the gap to making it a functional small city. Ultimately I think that I spent more time on it than my PCs did, but I guess thats no different than encounters.
For special abilities I tried to think of things that PCs would want from their city that had a basis in the rules. So a lot of them had to do with crafting, gold and lore.
Its not perfect but I am playing sometimes through Kingmaker too and that doesn't feel right either. I know that it is an abstract system but I think that there should be some bonus for any building that gets built.
Well, I simply made an RTS style build queue, because I frankly don't want to deal with the whole thing in the first place. ^^ The rewards will be a city with better base value and base limit, which also gives some bonuses on knowledge checks and the like. If the entire deal would have had any sort of purpose in the later part of the AP (and, no, the attack on Drezen in module six doesn't really count for me), I probably would have invested more energy into this. Since it doesn't, I'll save everybody involved a lot of time and we can get on with the story proper.
I agree. When I started it I thought Drezen would have a larger presence in the later books. I suppose it still could as some of those encounters should be rewritten.