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I am recieving information that weapons made of Adamantine have normal hardness. The logic is that the "Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points" chart does not include something for weapons but does for armor. So special mat weapons are steel hardness.
Now "Common"armor is made of leather, metal, and cloth.
I argue that Adamantine is not common and thus not on the common chart.
This to me seems to be breaking the common sence rule. If the metal is harder, so should anything made of it be.
I also argue that "Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20."
Means everything made of the metal has hardness 20. Since it is difficult to determine thickness for a weapon the common table it used.
Is there a direct ruling on this?
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Basically, it's up to your GM. Even in PFS. Until there is an official ruling, there cannot be consistency, because there are multiple interpretations of how special material hardness and hit points are handled.
One GM could say that a hafted weapon made of Adamantine has a hardness of 5, which represents the wooden haft. Hafted weapons made of steel, hardness 10, only have a hardness rating of 5 on the chart, so it doesn't matter what material you make the blade out of.
Another GM could say that a hafted weapon made of Adamantine has a hardness of 20, because you paid to have it made of a special material, and probably for that very reason.
And yet another GM could rule that your haft is also made of Adamantine, which gives it 26 hit points, rather than 13.
I really hope your question gets answered, but until it is it's really in the hands of your GM.
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Take a rank in Craft (origami).
During the mission briefing, make some paper weapons, playing it off as roleplaying a hobby.
When the GM says your adamantine weapon only has steel's hardness and HP, ask "So regardless of being a special material, we still default to the chart?"
When the GM says yes, say "Okay, I drop my sword as a free action, then as a move action I pull from my handy haversack the paper sword I made during the mission briefing, which apparently is as hard as steel."
Yes, unfortunately this is an issue without clear resolution and the marked response from staff is that a response is not needed. However, that said it seems implicit in the idea that a weapon, made from admantine and possessing no other significant materials in construction should have a greater hardness than a weapon made out of other materials. Your argument is sound and I agree that weapons made out of admantine should have a hardness of 20. The only issue you run into is hafted weapons that normally have wooden hafts. Could you instead make the haft out of metal, like admantine? I would say syes as a GM, but the rules aren't particularly clear.
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I suspect the staff assumed it was a matter of common sense. If a weapon is made of X it has the hardness of X. Now hafted weapons might be a concern, but I don't really see why you couldn't have a metal haft given the fairly ridiculous strengths we're talking about in most PF weapon wielders.
I looked over the rules. I think that people miss parts.
Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).
The quote from above directly states to look over 3 charts. Not one. One of the charts has common armor, weapon, and shield. Another has Substance Hardness and Hit Points. That second one I mention no one looks at when determining hardness for things. Even though the rules directly instruct to review them as well.
Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
Is also ignored. Saying the general rule for common weapons override the specific rule for the special material.
My arguement is this. If I take of my addy brest plate and use it as an improvised weapon, does it suddenly become softer?
Claxon, yes there is allowe dmetal hafted weapons. In the common chart of weapons and armor. Light metal-hafted weapon 10 10 and One-handed metal-hafted weapon 10 20. But not two handed hafted weapons can not have a metal handle.
I believe the misunderstanding is from people being lazy and not reading the rules. The rules direct someone to three charts not 1. Not following the rules could easily confuse people.
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It's possible that they used 'no reply required' to move it out of the queue.
The problem I have with the 'adamantine weapons are not common' argument is that the referenced chart also increases hardness for weapons with enhancement bonuses. This means that a +5 weapon's hardness is calculated based on the chart.
Are you arguing that an adamantine weapon is uncommon but a +2 or +5 weapon is?
I am argueing the rules say to check three charts, not one.
Saying one chart dominates and overrides all other wording directly is against RAW. RAW says look over 3 charts not 1. looking over all three charts is directly what the core states in the additional rules section.
Once you do as the RAW says you will easy understand the common weapon and armor chart refers to these items are steel and wood from comparing these to the Substance Hardness and Hit Points chart.
see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points
Chart 1 Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points
Chart 2 Substance Hardness and Hit PointsCHart 3 Object Hardness and Hit Points
These three are meant to work together. Not as three unique things.
Looking at Chart 3 Object Hardness and Hit Points You see addy has a hardness of 40 and 1/3 more hp than steel. just as mentioned in the equipment section.
Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
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I suspect the staff assumed it was a matter of common sense. If a weapon is made of X it has the hardness of X. Now hafted weapons might be a concern, but I don't really see why you couldn't have a metal haft given the fairly ridiculous strengths we're talking about in most PF weapon wielders.
This is reading your own interpretation into a fairly ambiguous rule. If the developers had wanted it to be clear-cut they should have included a method for calculating the hardness of adamantine weapons that have non-metal hafts.
As it is, I am unconvinced that an adamantine weapon should have 20 hardness. Yes, this is after looking at all three charts Finlanderboy cited.
In any case, we've seen developer comments that they sometimes state 'no reply needed' just to get something out of the system. They do this if the question asked is not clear enough.
So, FAQable question:
What is the hardness of an adamantine greataxe?
What is the hardness of an adamantine greataxe?
The core has left out two handed shafted weapons to be metal.
So this is not cut and dry.
I faqed this with you.
I don't see what's the problem with interpreting the rules.
Everything made of adamantine have hardness 20.
HP is calculated how it's said:
weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal
So longsword made of adamantine have hardness 20 and 6 HP
So, FAQable question:
What is the hardness of an adamantine greataxe?
This neither is not faq.
Greataxe handle is made of wood and the head is made of adamantine.When you sundering hafted weapon like this you surely won't try to break the head when it's much logical and easier to cut/break the handle.
So for sundering sake, hardness of adamantine greataxe is 5 and 10 HP.
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I don't see what's the problem with interpreting the rules.
Everything made of adamantine have hardness 20.
HP is calculated how it's said:
weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normalSo longsword made of adamantine have hardness 20 and 6 HP
So, FAQable question:
What is the hardness of an adamantine greataxe?
This neither is not faq.
Greataxe handle is made of wood and the head is made of adamantine.
When you sundering hafted weapon like this you surely won't try to break the head when it's much logical and easier to cut/break the handle.
So for sundering sake, hardness of adamantine greataxe is 5 and 10 HP.
The problem is the chart that states that weapons have certain hardness based on make, not material. Meanwhile the same chart says that armour has hardness based on material.
We can all agree that an adamantine breastplate has 20 hardness and that a mithral breastplate has 15, because it's clearly displayed in chart 7-12 and 7-13. So why isn't weapon hardness of different materials so clearly spelled out?
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So why isn't weapon hardness of different materials so clearly spelled out?
For the glory of my origami sword. If adamantine stops using its own stats and instead uses the stats of steel as soon as it's shaped like a weapon, then so does paper.
When special materials are not on the chart because it's not as straight foreward. Hardness really only matters when your weapon is taking damage, not when it's dealing it. The offensive benefit of materials like adamantine applies regardles of the hardness of tge majority of weapon (wood in this case). The chart is a starting point. Then if your weapon is made of a special material. Go to the section for that material. That section does need to better explain things however like "Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine" rather than extrapolating off of the chart.
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Pictures in the CRB of hafted weapons (such as axes) show most of them as being made of wood. Only the mace, IIRC, has a metal haft. Since many items are inherently made of more than one material, the rules need to be clarified on whether you take the lesser of the two hardness ratings, the greater, or something else entirely (like being able to make a normally wooden haft out of metal).
That would answer many of the questions people have, at least.
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Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that possess innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.
Although this talks strictly about special materials, I think the game itself wants you to consider any item as only being made out of one single material for the purposes of interacting with the rules, and in the case of a weapon that is visualised as having a head of a special material but the haft as normal wood, then surely it's the special material that matters.
Wouldn't you be making a weapon of war with a metal tang and cladding it with wood? An adamantine tang wouldn't be any heavier than a steel one.
Wouldn't you be making a weapon of war with a metal tang and cladding it with wood? An adamantine tang wouldn't be any heavier than a steel one.
Not to mention langettes. These were just strips of metal that ran down the shaft. The reinforced and protected the would preventing it from being easily sundered in real life. One would imagine that if you're spending 3000gp on an adamantine weapon with a wooden shaft, you can probably include in that price reinforcing the haft of the weapon with adamantine as well.
What happens when you bite people with adamantine dentures?
Wouldn't you be making a weapon of war with a metal tang and cladding it with wood? An adamantine tang wouldn't be any heavier than a steel one.Not to mention langettes. These were just strips of metal that ran down the shaft. The reinforced and protected the would preventing it from being easily sundered in real life. One would imagine that if you're spending 3000gp on an adamantine weapon with a wooden shaft, you can probably include in that price reinforcing the haft of the weapon with adamantine as well.
The games does nto seem to bring these into the rules.
Please faq it so we can can get a definitive answer.
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All items made out of special materials have the hardness listed for the material.
From the SRD
Adamantine
HP/inch 40 (weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal.); Hardness 20; Cost: Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given.
Notice the semi-colon. Adamantine weapons have a hardness of 20 and a a third more HP than their steel counterparts.
I agree, but some people feel the general rule of the Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points ovvirdes that for weapons.
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Nobody is debating whether or not Adamantine has a hardness of 20.
Unfortunately...
Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20 (see Additional Rules). Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/— if it's light armor, 2/— if it's medium armor, and 3/— if it's heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.
Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
...nothing in that description says that Adamantine weapons have a hardness of 20.
Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
This means all adamantine.
When you make a weapon out of Adamantine. That means it is Adamantine. Since the weapon is Adamantine it has a hardness of 20.
Review the charts about hardness and it alerts you of the hardness of Adamantine there as well.
Lets say the rules as written said only to check the Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points table. Then jiggy would be correct in making paper weapons that have the same hardness and HP.
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Oh I totally agree the intent is that an Adamantine weapon should have a base hardness of 20, but playing devil's advocate, it's not actually written anywhere. Believe me, I want it to be true. I have a horse in this race. But I'm beginning to think it'll fall the other way when an FAQ is finally issued.
Think about it, though. Steel has a hardness of 10. Wouldn't a regular, or even masterwork, steel greataxe have a hardness of 10? Why doesn't it? Because the haft is made of wood.
Many people argue that the same is true for weapons made of Adamantine.
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Review the charts about hardness and it alerts you of the hardness of Adamantine there as well.
See subscript "4" on the "Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points" table? The Substance Hardness and Hit Points table is only referenced for Armor. Not Weapons.
If it was listed in the Weapons column, I don't think there would be any argument. Since it isn't, we're left to figure it out on our own.
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Edit: In respose to whether adamantine weapons are hardness 20. It depends on the type of weapon. Blade, yes. One handed hafted weapon, maybe/probably - whether any one handed wooden hafted weapon be instead metal isn't clear. Two handed hafted no, doesn't look like it.
Wait, before you damage yourself too much, click the FAQ button!
Why? The dev's are going to read the question, slam their foreheads against the desk, tie SKR down so he doesn't launch a nuclear weapon at someone's IP zone, and then change the thread to 'no answered required' or whatever it is they put up when the answer is already plain.
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They've already done that at least once.
If you do a search, people have been asking this question for years now. You'd think that putting a little subscript "4" further up the chart would be easy to do. Especially given that the CRB is on its 6th printing now.
Well if an weapon has that property but has a wooden handle....when someones trying to break a weapon, which are they going to be aiming for and trying to break? That nice special part or the wooden part?
So im gonna say swords/daggers/etc that are made mostly of the metal will have the hardness of 20 when someones trying to sunder. If ita got a handle thats wooden and obvious (im looking at most 2 handers) id say its 5.
But I faqd
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To me, the problem with saying you will sunder the handle instead is that there is no rule in Pathfinder for 'calling your targets'.
Let's say someone is wearing a breast plate. Would you allow someone to say "I am going to avoid the breastplate by targeting their arm" and allow them to bypass the defense and hardness of an adamantine breastplate by targeting an arm? If not, why does someone get to target a great axe's handle? That's no different than targeting an arm to bypass the breastplate's hardness.
To me, the problem with saying you will sunder the handle instead is that there is no rule in Pathfinder for 'calling your targets'.
Let's say someone is wearing a breast plate. Would you allow someone to say "I am going to avoid the breastplate by targeting their arm" and allow them to bypass the defense and hardness of an adamantine breastplate by targeting an arm? If not, why does someone get to target a great axe's handle? That's no different than targeting an arm to bypass the breastplate's hardness.
How bout this. U are sundering their weapon, either with a sunder u break the wooden handle in half or u keep hitting to destroy the metal piece and the force of it eventually breaks the wooden handle..
Fine example is take a hammer and wedge it somewhere where the wooden handle cant move or fly out. Now take another hammer and hit the metal part with the intent to break it. Know what happens? U actually break the wooden handle first even though u arent actually hitting the wooden part.Thats just my opionion why if a weapon has a wooden handle, thats the reason it has a hardness of the wood and not the metal. Because even though u dont actually break the metal part, with the wooden handle broken, the weapon is broken. Again just my opionion on weapons with wooden handles. I hit the faq. And I agree that weapons made primarily with the said metals should get the hardness of that metal. Im just saying the weapons with wooden handles like the chart stated gets the wood hardness for the reason I stated.
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Let's say someone is wearing a breast plate. Would you allow someone to say "I am going to avoid the breastplate by targeting their arm" and allow them to bypass the defense and hardness of an adamantine breastplate by targeting an arm? If not, why does someone get to target a great axe's handle? That's no different than targeting an arm to bypass the breastplate's hardness.
Except that the breastplate has a tiny number "4" scribbled on it, whereas the greataxe does not.
Perhaps the lower hardness ratings were created to represent that, when sundering, you're always going to be aiming for the weakest part of the weapon?
The haft is also the longest part of those weapons and therefor the most likely to get hit, regardless of getting into intent of targeting.
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So why isn't weapon hardness of different materials so clearly spelled out?For the glory of my origami sword. If adamantine stops using its own stats and instead uses the stats of steel as soon as it's shaped like a weapon, then so does paper.
You origami sword has no edge and don't work as a sword.
On the other hand, a origami maul ..... :-)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll repeat, there are no rules in the system for targeting a specific part of a weapon or a specific part of a creature. The closest you can find is that you can target a specific square of a large or larger creature. So sure, if the weapon were so big was large (say a battleaxe for a colossal creature), then sure, you could target the haft.
And yes, I agree, if you hit a hammer repeatedly and break it, in the real world that you'd snap the handle. However, in the real world, you can try to hit my arm to avoid my chest. The game is abstracted. Within that abstract, there is no called shots.
Only weapons primarily made of metal can be made of adamantine. Now, if you want to posit that a great axe is primarily made of wood, so that that is the hardness you have to beat, you have just made an adamantine great axe an invalid item because it is no longer primarily made of metal. So you'll have to go with hardwood for your great axe.
If the great axe is valid as being made of adamantine, then it is primarily a metal weapon, and therefore it gains it's benefit for adamantine. This is why the dev's keep marking this as 'no answer needed', the rules themselves forbid you from having an adamantine great axe if it's not primarily metal, and if it is primarily metal you have to use the metal as it's primary defense. Because, again, you can't call a hit to a specific part of the axe. There's no rules for that.
Would you allow someone to say "I am going to avoid the breastplate by targeting their arm" and allow them to bypass the defense and hardness of an adamantine breastplate by targeting an arm?
Yes. That's why armor makes it harder to hit rather than giving DR.
My houserule would be that you could specify langettes or a metal haft at some extra weight and cost. On the other hand, I'd allow a broken wooden shaft to be replaced virtually for free but broken metal to require serious repair.
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Would you allow someone to say "I am going to avoid the breastplate by targeting their arm" and allow them to bypass the defense and hardness of an adamantine breastplate by targeting an arm?Yes. That's why armor makes it harder to hit rather than giving DR.
My houserule would be that you could specify langettes or a metal haft at some extra weight and cost. On the other hand, I'd allow a broken wooden shaft to be replaced virtually for free but broken metal to require serious repair.
You allow, in your games, someone to walk up to an NPC in an adamantine breastplate with an AC of 24 to say 'I aim for the arm' and then roll against an AC of 18 instead, and ignore the DR 2/-- from the Adamantine Breastplate? WOW that's a major house rule. There is NOTHING in the system to allow that.
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Mind you, I want the answer to be 20. My Dwarf Magus in PFS has a +3 Adamantine Impervious Dwarven Waraxe with a Fortifying Stone attached to it. I think it's Hardness is 37 at this point (and HP above a hundred), but only because I argue that its entirely made out of Adamantine. Occasionally, depending on the GM, the Hardness of my weapon drops to 22.
mdt, I think you missed my question earlier. I'll rephrase using your greataxe example:
Wood has a hardness of 5.
Steel has a hardness of 10.
Adamantine has a hardness of 20.A steel greataxe has a hardness of 5.
What do you think the hardness of an Adamantine greataxe should be?
Honestly? I think it should be the steel is 10 and the adamantine is 20 because there's no rules for targeting specific spots.
However, after having posted, and then thought, and posted again... I would reluctantly have to say that RAW it's probably 5. However, I think there is a rules inconsistency there, as that is saying the weapon is primarily made of wood, and therefore it shouldn't be able to be made of adamantine.
SO... my response would be, that as currently written... an Adamantine Greataxe is an invalid option, as it's obvious the Devs consider a 2-handed wooden shafted weapon to be mostly wood (which would be true for a scythe, but may not be true for a great axe, it depends on whether you are going by volume or length).
Ok, you convinced me. Adamantine great axes are not valid in the system. You have to go with darkwood instead.