At the start of the campaign, our group came into the possession of a broken-down airship which we have steadily been working to repair. It is currently seaworthy and, possibly as soon as next level, will be ready to take to the sky again.
Unfortunately, our group is not without enemies of some means, and just last session we encountered a foe in what can only be described as a gunship. Luckily the encounter did not involve a ship-to-ship battle, since our poor airship would have been dreadfully outgunned.
Which leads to the point of this post. What sorts of weapons and defenses might we put on our airship? Currently we have an idea of installing a lightning net (like the one from Stardust) to power lightning cannons as an offense, but that still leaves our mostly wooden ship rather vulnerable.
The only idea I've come up with so far is to perhaps have one of our clerics eventually cast Hallow on the ship. I'm thinking Protection from Energy (Fire) would be a good rider spell, but how would that work, with a limited amount of points it could absorb? Would it vanish after 120 points? And could the effect be placed on the ship itself, rather than individuals on the ship?
One of our party members (my fellow engineer,) is an alchemist. Are there rules for some kind of alchemical solution that one could treat our wooden ship with, to make it fire resistant?
And aside from fire there's the matter of cannonfire. The gunship I mentioned had a lot of cannons. Even assuming we can make our ship fire-resistant, how do we make the ship "explosion-resistant"?
This is the first time I've ever had an airship, and I'm really excited about it. But at the same time I have no experience with defending structures, and what might be available/involved.
I'd love to hear your experiences, advice, etc. It doesn't have to be about a ship specifically, since I imagine there are defensive tactics for strongholds/castles that could work just as well for ships.
Barter with the DM to allow several druids aboard who all cast Ironwood on various parts of the ship. Further, see if he is willing to grant it Permanency.
Barter with the DM to allow several druids aboard who all cast Ironwood on various parts of the ship. Further, see if he is willing to grant it Permanency.
This is an awesome idea.
Naturally, I doubt there will be many spells/items specifically tailored for airship combat/defense, so this is what I'm looking for, ideas that can be adapted to the situation with DM approval.
I'm also thinking Fickle Winds would be an excellent way to try and force enemy airships to close to boarding distance, rather than stay at range and pelt us with arrows. Our group is definitely stronger in melee range.
A permanent Fickle Winds might be pushing it, but enchanting a jewel that could cast it a couple times a day could be feasible.
Although passive defenses are the best (such as if we're able to convert most of the outer layer of our ship into ironwood,) active defenses would also be great. They have the benefit of also likely being cheaper to acquire. :p
Quite honestly, the only defense is PCs with good ranged attacks.
I'm not sure this is really a defense. If we simply trade offense with enemy airships our own ship is likely to be critically damaged, and it took us a long while to get it to the point where it's going to be airworthy again to begin with.
Also, we don't have anything approaching a strong ranged contingent. Our entire group is melee except for the alchemist and the bard, and the bard is an abject coward, worthless in nearly every situation.
That's not to say that we won't be acting to neutralize the enemy ship's crew. At mid-levels my magus will be able to dimension door and the monk can abundant step across to the other ship and start wreaking havoc, but even so, we need our own ship to be able to withstand enough punishment to give us time to get the job done.
Soooo. Back to defenses for the ship! :p
I wonder how much permanent ship protection one could get from a Wish or Miracle...
Have you considered using invisibility on a bunch of gliders/their pilots and boarding people? That way you can keep the airship at a safe distance, using it like a carrier.
EDIT: You can also just use ballista with alchemist's fire on the bolts at some extreme range and hope to set the gunship on fire and then run for it.
EDIT 2:
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Have you considered using invisibility on a bunch of gliders/their pilots and boarding people? That way you can keep the airship at a safe distance, using it like a carrier.
I haven't, and I'm not sure how feasible this would be for us. We wouldn't have the manpower to mount a ranged glider assault on another ship and keep any kind of presence on our own ship, which would leave our ship vulnerable.
Also, invisible gliders strikes me as very, very expensive to build and maintain. It may be the sort of thing our enemies could produce, though, and should we manage to defeat them we'd certainly be happy to ninja their gear.
Indeed, I was a bit sad that gunship I mentioned got away, since we therefore didn't have a chance to strip it of its armaments before scuttling it.
EDIT: You can also just use ballista with alchemist's fire on the bolts at some extreme range and hope to set the gunship on fire and then run for it.
Heh. "Run for it" may indeed be our primary strategy, at least until we can get some defenses into place.
Regarding weaponry eventually our plan is to have something akin to the lightning net from Stardust linked to lightning cannons. One of our party clerics suggested it and everyone seemed to like the idea for flavor, particularly since our ship was recently rechristened "The Storm Petrel". :)
Still, actually implementing that idea may be a ways off, so in the meantime Alchemist's Fire is definitely an option. Unfortunately it's an option for our enemy too, hence my desperate desire to get some defenses into place. ;)
Hallucinatory terrain as a cloaking device?
I don't think Hallucinatory Terrain itself would work, since it states that structures, equipment, and creatures are not hidden. But I don't think the idea is without merit. Hiding ourselves in some form of illusion would definitely be an advantage.
I'm not very conversant with the game's illusion spells. I have to admit I never play illusionists. I'll have to start going through illusion spells and seeing if anything is workable.
Of course, since you mentioned a cloaking device there's the idea of a massive invisibility spell of some kind. That sounds pretty expensive too...but so awesome.
Regarding expense, our group may have access to some potent abilities ourselves through our in-game contacts, so high-level abilities aren't out of the question, though hardly assured.
Eversmoking bottles to lay down a smokescreen between you and your pursuers.
How big is the ship? And what levels are you?
The ship is on the small side, though I couldn't tell you the exact dimensions offhand. I'll have to take measurements of the mat next session so I have that information for brainstorming.
We're currently 4th-level, and our DM has suggested we may be able to finish the repairs needed to get our ship airborne as early as 5th-level. Obviously, some of the more elaborate ideas in this thread will be long-term goals, but that's not a bad thing. In fact it's a necessity. The earlier we know what we want to accomplish regarding upgrades, the earlier we can start to build them.
The DM also allows us to salvage materials to help defray the cost of building (this was how we achieved most of our repairs to get the ship rebuilt up to this point) so knowing what we want to do early will likely make it less expensive to implement as well, since we can salvage materials during our adventuring away from the ship.
I know that there's a level 4 word spell for invisibility, Unseen Shell, which works on any creatures or objects in the area. Not sure if there are any rules for how boost metawords can be added to spell items or anything, but it's a possibility. Max area of effect for the sphere would be 80ft radius with Widen Spell. (10ft radius normally, boost 1 for 20ft, boost 2 for 40ft, widened doubles
Can also use a boost metaword to make it improved invisibility...I'd say that while the improved invisibility option sounds cool, it doesn't really work as well, the item would be better used for stealth/escape than offensively.
I tend to agree. With all the different people attacking/acting I imagine an improved invisibility ship would be a nightmare to adjudicate as well. A straight-up invisibility field that deactivates in combat is far simpler, and still very useful and cool besides.
As for cannon fire protection, wall of force? It says the effect can be anchored to a ship.
*nod* I'm thinking some combination of Wall of Force, Symbol of Sealing, and Permanency should allow us to put up walls of force on the sides of the ship. Then if we make the deck itself into ironwood, we'd be looking fairly well-fortified.
Also, I do like the image of several large glowing symbols blazing into being on the sides of the ship as it enters into combat. Sort of like a "shields up!" moment. :)
There are a number of ship improvements in the Skull and Shackles adventure path, including armor plated hulls, magically-reinforced hulls, etc, that may provide a good jumping off point for ideas.
Thanks for the tip! I'll ask my DM whether he plans to run that ap. If not, I'll pick it up for ideas.
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There are a number of spells designed to counter firearms. They may work against cannons. Many are low level.
Damp Powder: The ammo in a gun is ruined and must be cleared.
Weaken Powder: The gun has less range and deals less damage. Or must be cleared.
Destabilize Powder: Increase the misfire chance.
Recoil Fire: Gun goes off randomly and knocks down the wielder.
Thunder Fire: Gun makes a load bang that might deafen those nearby. If it was loaded, the ammo's wasted.
Flash Fire: Gun goes off randomly and might blind those nearby.
Stabilize Powder will reduce the misfire chance of your own guns, and Named Bullet will do wonders to your shots. And of course, True Strike.
Bullet Shield is another good defensive spell for you. +4 Deflection bonus against guns and other ranged attacks, scaling as you go up. Stacks with some other armor types.
There are a number of spells designed to counter firearms. They may work against cannons. Many are low level.
Oh awesome, this is a great list! Thanks!
Something like a Wand of Damp Powder would be fantastic to give our cowardly bard something to do while others are boarding the enemy ship.
I also love the idea of a gun/wand locker somewhere on deck for people to run to for ship-to-ship weaponry when combat appears imminent. :)
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You might want to see if you can dig up an old copy of 'Champions of Mystara: Heroes of the Princess Ark ', it was a Basic D&D set that was compiled from many Dragon Magazine columns all about the journeys and adventures of... an airship in Mystara (the Basic D&D world). There might be some good ideas in there!
You might want to see if you can dig up an old copy of 'Champions of Mystara: Heroes of the Princess Ark ', it was a Basic D&D set that was compiled from many Dragon Magazine columns all about the journeys and adventures of... an airship in Mystara (the Basic D&D world). There might be some good ideas in there!
Oh man, it sounds just fantastic...and super hard to get a hold of. :p I'll keep an eye out!
Last time I presented an enchanted ship to my players, its "special defense" was an illusory form as a generic, beat-up old fishing schooner that even most pirates would scorn.
We already sort of have this defense. When we first started repairing the airship, we made the decision to try and keep the exterior as beat-up and rundown as possible, while completely rebuilding the interior to the best of our abilities (this also allowed us to redesign the inside). So yeah, currently it looks far worse at first glance than it actually is. :)
Of course, if you're flying through the air, a beat-up old fishing boat isn't going to attract much less attention than a fancy warship.
This is Eberron (sort of), so while I wouldn't say airships are common they aren't amazingly rare either. It's our hope that sky pirates will pass on us as not worth their time. That won't work with enemies who are specifically after us, of course.
Maybe more. You can't just tell 'em you're out fishing for sky crabs... or can you?
I honestly have no idea. :p
Use animated object option of the craft contruct feat http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/buildingAndModifying Constructs.html
Consider lead-lining your ship, to make it hard to scry. I could try digging up the price per square inch I calculated not too long ago.
Armor plating or ironwood is very helpful in reducing damage and the risk of fire.
I can imagine enchanting a bunch of pebbles as minor constructs, and giving them the ability to cast a modified Shield or Mage Armor once a day so that they each produce a field of protection covering a large portion of the hull. They each look like stone crabs crawling around the hull of your ship, and when you're under attack, saying a certain word aloud will cause them to activate their shield spell.
And they can be commanded to perform automated repairs (but they can't uphold their shield while doing this, so you'll need spares). If you can work out some homebrew way to pull this off, it could be a lot of fun.
Talk to your GM!
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Actually all you need regarding basic ship improvements are in the Skull and Shackles players guide available for free. Download it and it will give you the costs and benefits of various upgrades and their effects upon the speed and maneuverability of your vessel.
Not in the book are possible inventions. Like an alchemists fire Gatling gun cannon or an icicle bolt cannon; these would be expensive to make or invent I would think.
Also capturing and training a couple of dragons may also help … On the cheaper end of the scale is summoning something like an air elemental or two or some griffons.
Regards
Sic
Don't you mean a F9C Sparrowhawk ?
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protection from fire/cold/electricity/acid, with all decks inscribed with huge circles against good/evil/law/chaos for the crew to use to their advantage if boarded, orb of storms set into the steery thing, all crewmates have rings of feather falling, and turrets EVERYWHERE.
my group's druid used to catapult summoned tigers at enemy ships in an old game of ours (it got so bad we'd start most encounters with fire a warning tiger").
I haven't, and I'm not sure how feasible this would be for us. We wouldn't have the manpower to mount a ranged glider assault on another ship and keep any kind of presence on our own ship, which would leave our ship vulnerable.
Also, invisible gliders strikes me as very, very expensive to build and maintain. It may be the sort of thing our enemies could produce, though, and should we manage to defeat them we'd certainly be happy to ninja their gear.
Invisibility has target: Object weighing no more than 100 lbs./level. I haven't found the mass of a glider but given its 10x10 it's not unreasonable to assume it's less than 220kg (or ~480 pounds). In which case you can have someone cast invisibility on them and the rider at level 5.
I really like the shields up idea with force effects and symbols xD
Consider lead-lining your ship, to make it hard to scry. I could try digging up the price per square inch I calculated not too long ago.
I think lining the ship in lead may be unfeasible, simply due to the additional weight that would add. But you're right, at high levels a defense against Scrying and Teleportation magic will probably be essential.
Armor plating or ironwood is very helpful in reducing damage and the risk of fire.
Definitely. Since we don't have a druid in the party, I'm hoping our alchemist can invent some kind of magical coating that can transform our deck into ironwood. I'll have to ask the DM.
Talk to your GM!
Oh, absolutely. Once I've gathered all my thoughts and ideas, I'll have to run them all by him to see what he'll go along with and what might be a bit much for him. :p
my group's druid used to catapult summoned tigers at enemy ships in an old game of ours (it got so bad we'd start most encounters with fire a warning tiger").
Fire a warning tiger... that is amazing.
The more I think about it (and visualize it), the funnier it gets.
Lord Pendragon: Depends on how much lead you need. If it's like tin-foil, then the weight won't be great enough to matter (it will be like carrying an extra box of cargo). If it's .1 inches thick or more, then that will start to matter a lot. :D
Edit: the reason I say so is... the books are not so clear about thickness etc, if I remember right. Just says "a thin sheet of lead".
Invisibility has target: Object weighing no more than 100 lbs./level. I haven't found the mass of a glider but given its 10x10 it's not unreasonable to assume it's less than 220kg (or ~480 pounds). In which case you can have someone cast invisibility on them and the rider at level 5.
Hrm. I was thinking of permanent improved invisibility for some reason, but you're right, a plain old invisibility[ to get the boarding party over to the other ship could work out. I'll have to see how much gliders cost, how hard they are to pilot, and how much room they'd take up on our ship (which is on the small side, as far as airships go.)
I really like the shields up idea with force effects and symbols xD
Me too. :) I think it will require some custom spell research, and possibly expensive and/or rare material components, but I think I will be able to get our DM to go along with it.
Lord Pendragon: Depends on how much lead you need. If it's like tin-foil, then the weight won't be great enough to matter (it will be like carrying an extra box of cargo). If it's .1 inches thick or more, then that will start to matter a lot. :D
Edit: the reason I say so is... the books are not so clear about thickness etc, if I remember right. Just says "a thin sheet of lead".
*nod* There's also the cost to consider. If the lead can be made light enough, it will come down to whether the lead is cheaper, or the magical alternative is cheaper.
protection from fire/cold/electricity/acid, with all decks inscribed with huge circles against good/evil/law/chaos for the crew to use to their advantage if boarded
I am thinking we're going to try and Hallow the ship itself, which should take care of the Magic Circle Against Evil effect, since we won't need Protection from Fire if we make the deck into ironwood.
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I think in reality Ironwood is pretty much impossible for a ship, it's a single object weighing 5 lbs per level of the caster. I can see allowing it on individual planks making up the deck/hull of the ship but even so it is going to take *years* to do a whole ship.
A small ship fit for ocean going sailing with a decent crew and room for cargo, etc is going to be 80 tons + in all probability, possibly even as much as 150+ if it's a larger brigantine or such. At 2000 lbs per ton even a 10th level caster is going to take 40 days to do a *single* ton of the ship... and that's 40 permanencies as well, since the spell only lasts 1 day per level.
Even if only half the weight is deck and hull that's still a ridiculous amount of time and money. Hallow & Protection from Fire is probably a better bet imo.
Even if only half the weight is deck and hull that's still a ridiculous amount of time and money. Hallow & Protection from Fire is probably a better bet imo.
Well, there may be alternatives that accomplish the same goal by nonstandard means. Our alchemist may be able to develop a wood treatment that mimics the ironwood properties.
...or my magus could always ask the dragons for a favor. ;)
Dot.
There's greenwood, but it can be high-maintenance. Living steel is an option, but maybe not a fantastic one.
The trouble is, the more expensive and well-designed your ship becomes, the more valuable it is as a target for anyone who thinks they can capture it. :D
BTW, I don't understand the incentive for using ironwood. It's as strong as steel (and resists rust effects)... but it weighs just as much as steel too (and is vulnerable to wood spells like warp wood, which could severely compromise hull integrity in an instant).
It may be better to instead just pay for standard plating. It's affordable, has clearly defined rules for how to get it and what it gives you, and doesn't involve negotiating with the local Druid's Union over maternity leave and lunch breaks. You'll be working with them long enough that these issues *will* come up. ;)
The trouble is, the more expensive and well-designed your ship becomes, the more valuable it is as a target for anyone who thinks they can capture it. :D
Heh. I don't disagree with you, but that's one danger I'm willing to brave. I've wanted to play in a game with airships for a long time, and I'm having a lot of fun brainstorming how to make ours capable of opening up a serious can of whooparse. :p
BTW, I don't understand the incentive for using ironwood. It's as strong as steel (and resists rust effects)... but it weighs just as much as steel too (and is vulnerable to wood spells like warp wood, which could severely compromise hull integrity in an instant).
The incentive for me was that a) it's fireproof, b) it's more cannonproof than wood, and c) I missed the part where the spell says ironwood is as heavy as steel.
The one advantage over steel it still has is that it doesn't look obviously like armor. Currently we're trying to downplay the Petrel's strength, having intentionally maintained its beat-up exterior despite completely rebuilding its interior/core structure. Giving it steel plating would make it rather obvious we're piloting a gunship and not a rundown merchanter.
and doesn't involve negotiating with the local Druid's Union over maternity leave and lunch breaks. You'll be working with them long enough that these issues *will* come up. ;)
Heh! That's always been the trouble with ironwood. We have no druid in our party, and no connection to a druid's circle. I was mostly hoping our alchemist could find a way to facilitate a similar effect without involving druids.
We may have to abandon our current deception and go with something more overt, like steel armor and an invisibility field, then.
There's another low-cost solution: surround the ship with ragged, tattered cloths. Make it look like you used to proudly display your nation's insignia, but haven't kept it up and the cloth looks terrible now. BUT it covers the ship's nicer features and makes it clear you're just a ratty old merchant ship without a maintenance budget.
It's a cheap solution that should work for a little while, giving you a chance to work on other options.
There's another low-cost solution: surround the ship with ragged, tattered cloths. Make it look like you used to proudly display your nation's insignia, but haven't kept it up and the cloth looks terrible now. BUT it covers the ship's nicer features and makes it clear you're just a ratty old merchant ship without a maintenance budget.
That's not a bad idea at all. Part of it will depend on what I finally decide to try and accomplish and how much of it is actually possible in our circumstances. I'm guessing the lightning cannons and lightning net will happen, mainly due to the Stardust reference and the fact that it was suggested by our newest player, the daughter of one of our other players. Less sure I'll get my Wall of Force shields though there's still a decent chance.
I'd really like to armor at least the deck, but we'll see. One of our party members is growing more influential with her Church, so we might be able to get some support there, though it may require we provide transport for Church officials from time to time.
Depending on just how decked-out we can make the airship will determined how hard it will be to hide the hardware. :p
When you say Airships are you useing Spell Jammer rules?
Since we haven't actually taken to the sky yet, I can't be sure, but I suspect we'll be using the Eberron airship rules, since our campaign is set in a modified Eberron setting. There's no suggestion that we'll be traveling in space or between dimensions or anything like that.
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Dwarven gunslinger brigade.
Have you considered lining the deck and exterior of your ship with dwarves, to absorb impacts from cannons and put out fires?
But not elves. Elves cause cancer.
Have you considered lining the deck and exterior of your ship with dwarves, to absorb impacts from cannons and put out fires?
But not elves. Elves cause cancer.
Should go well with the iron golem cannon and the sky crab nets. :p
Quite honestly, the only defense is PCs with good ranged attacks.I'm not sure this is really a defense. If we simply trade offense with enemy airships our own ship is likely to be critically damaged, and it took us a long while to get it to the point where it's going to be airworthy again to begin with....
Soooo. Back to defenses for the ship! :p
I believe his comment was related to the fact that the PF system is heavily weighted towards offense. The common phrase 'rocket tag' is the same kinda thing. The system does not reward defensive attemts nearly as well as it rewards offensive attempts.
So his comment is basically saying you are better off (and more likely to succeed) trying to destroy attackers before they can do much of anything to you.But that's not to say nothing is possible. I think some of your best options are wands and a couple of guys with a high UMD.
It is very expensive to enchant things permenantly. But wands are relatively cheap.
Fog cloud, wind wall, deeper darkness, etc... can help deflect/avoid incomming fire. Pyrotechnics to put out fires (even better if you can use before it hits your ship).
Summon air elementals to hover off your stern in whirlwind form when running away. Should make it hard to hit you with many attacks.
tl;dr
The best diffense for an airship is situational awareness....
The ability to detect other creatures and airships before they detect you will determine if combat occurs.
A Combat Air Patrol (CAP) above your airship can give you better visability and you can move so that the other ship cant see yours.
Also dont forget the mundane, paint your ship to look like the gray sky or clouds. Not only do they have to spot you, then they have to see through the disguise (camaflouge)
Dont forget the relative speed difference between ships, and the visability to the horizon at 10,000 feet (about 63 miles if i recall corectly)