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Ultimate Campaign introduces rules that allow characters to retrain out some of their build choices.
Can these rules be used to make a character that could not have been built normally from level 1 up without retraining?
Example 1:
A Half Orc Rogue takes Skill Focus as his first level feat. He advances to 3rd level and takes Power attack as his 3rd level feat. The character decides he wants to use the retraining rules to retrain his Skill focus feat into Weapon Focus. He meets all the prerequisites for Weapon Focus now.
If this is allowed we now have a 3rd level character in a 3/4 BAB class that posseses two feats with a prerequisite of BAB +1. Without retraining this character could not have been built this way as he would not have qualified for either feat at 1st level.
Example 2:
A character is Sorcerer 5 / Dragon Disciple 1 with maxed Ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). The character wishes to retrain One of his sorcerer levels into another level of dragon disciple. Under the rules he would immediately lose his 5th level of Sorcerer and gain a new level. As a Sorc 4 / Dragon Disciple 1 he still has 5 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana) so technically qualifies for Dragon Disciple so he can then add a 2nd level of Dragon Disciple.
If this is legal the result is a character who is Sorc 4 / Dragon Disciple 2 which is NOT a build that could normally be made.
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I would say heck no. The point of retraining isn't as I understand it to make it possible to sidestep prestige class and feat prerequisites.
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Excellent question. I would say that's a situation that might not have been addressed in the whole retraining concept. I would say that the unwritten rule is that you have to maintain qualification for anything you retrain into/from, at the level you will have swapped it out for.
So, instead of Skill Focus, if he wanted to take Combat Reflexes and met the prerequisites at level 1, I would say ok. But, yeah, I would recommend Weapon Focus and Power Attack not be given to a level 3 in a 3/4 BAB class.
This allowance would, as you suggest, start breaking mechanical limitations originally imposed for a reason.
Such as, what does a lvl 10 Shadow Dancer look like stat-wise, and how does it measure up to other builds?
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Yep, your alright to retrain your 1st level feat like that. The only condition against it is if it was a prerequisite for some other feat/class/archetype/etc. What level you took the feat at doesn't matter, other then if say it was a bonus feat of some type you have to exchange it for some other bonus feat that you qualify to take (IE combat feat for combat feat for a bonus fighter feat, etc.)
Your retraining your current character after all, not reaching into your character's past and mucking about. That's why it requires training time and money. It's a useful optional campaign rule that helps people recover a bad feat.
Using the closest parallel that existed before this - Fighters and retraining bonus feats - the only restriction was that you could not retrain a feat that was a prerequisite for another feat, ability, prestige class (per SKR confirmation), etc.
So I see nothing in RAW that prohibits it; when you retrain, it appears that you retrain based on your character's current abilities, meaning that you could retrain a feat earned at 3rd level with a feat that has a prerequisite of BAB +6 as long as you currently meet the qualifications.
The alternative would be that you literally keep track of your character's progression level-by-level, which would result in a pretty massive amount of bookkeeping.
I would say the feat retraining example probably works, but the prestige class one does not.
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.
That includes skill points. You need to have 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) prior to being eligible for Dragon Disciple. If you do not meet the prerequisites after retraining, you can't use it until you again qualify.
If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
So, I believe you could retrain from Sorc6/DD1 to Sorc5/DD2, but not from Sorc5/DD1 to Sorc4/DD2. You could retrain from Sorc5/DD1 to Sorc4/Fighter1/DD1 or similarly go from Sorc5/Fighter1/DD1 to Sorc5/DD2, but you can't use the prestige class to qualify for itself.
I can certainly see why the question comes up, but I don't think you can argue that it was intended to work in a way that creates impossible characters, particularly for things like prestige classes. Feats maybe because the limitations are no retraining prerequisites (unless you want to forego using those subsequent abilities) and retraining bonus feats means the new feat must also be a valid choice for the bonus feat.
You shouldn't be able to create a character whose only levels are Assassin 10, or whatever other prestige class you want to use.
The alternative would be that you literally keep track of your character's progression level-by-level, which would result in a pretty massive amount of bookkeeping.
Not really all that massive amount necessary. The Pathfinder Character Folio thing already has a level-by-level progression page. I make my players use it so I know they've met all the prerequisites.
However, I see the point of the swapping out feats thing. But NOT the Sorcerer levels for Dragon Disciple levels.
EDIT: Ninja'd above.
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If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
This is a very interesting piece as it goes directly against the previous RAW that requirements for a Prestige Class are checked only when taking the 1st level in the class (CRB, page 374, at the very beginning of the Chapter 11 - Prestige Classes)
Also neither this text nor the other quote really prevent a character with a sufficiently high level in a PrC from retraining his base class levels, as his levels in his PrC before retraining may be sufficient by themselves to qualify for the PrC (through skill points, additional levels in spellcasting). There will definitely need to be some clarification/errata/FAQ to deal with this corner case.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.This is a very interesting piece as it goes directly against the previous RAW that requirements for a Prestige Class are checked only when taking the 1st level in the class (CRB, page 374, at the very beginning of the Chapter 11 - Prestige Classes)
I don't have my CRB available, but I can find no such text in the official PRD. What printing do you have? Perhaps that text was removed in eratta?
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I don't have my CRB available, but I can find no such text in the official PRD. What printing do you have? Perhaps that text was removed in eratta?If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.This is a very interesting piece as it goes directly against the previous RAW that requirements for a Prestige Class are checked only when taking the 1st level in the class (CRB, page 374, at the very beginning of the Chapter 11 - Prestige Classes)
It appears in the PRD too. It is just not very obvious ;-)
"Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class."
There is no such text for gaining further levels in a PrC.
I don't have my CRB available, but I can find no such text in the official PRD. What printing do you have? Perhaps that text was removed in eratta?If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.This is a very interesting piece as it goes directly against the previous RAW that requirements for a Prestige Class are checked only when taking the 1st level in the class (CRB, page 374, at the very beginning of the Chapter 11 - Prestige Classes)It appears in the PRD too. It is just not very obvious ;-)
"Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class."
There is no such text for gaining further levels in a PrC.
That would be because no such text was necessary until retraining was introduced.
Personally, I feel like you should NOT be able to build a character via retraining that you could not build from first level. Not only does that add a whole new level of optimization, but it also is more useful for a GM who often builds NPCs at levels beyond first and second MUCH more frequently than PCs. It seems like something that should not be be allowed to me.
I agree with MechE. If I allow retraining it will come with the restriction that your character choices must be legal at the level they are taken. Ie: If you retrain a 3rd level feat it must be legal for you to have taken at that level before anything that came afterwards (no weapon specialization in a 3rd level feat slot).
- Gauss
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't have my CRB available, but I can find no such text in the official PRD. What printing do you have? Perhaps that text was removed in eratta?If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.This is a very interesting piece as it goes directly against the previous RAW that requirements for a Prestige Class are checked only when taking the 1st level in the class (CRB, page 374, at the very beginning of the Chapter 11 - Prestige Classes)It appears in the PRD too. It is just not very obvious ;-)
"Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class."
There is no such text for gaining further levels in a PrC.
Text stating prereqs are checked before 1st level is not the same as text stating that prereqs are only checked before 1st level. The former is what you cited, while the latter is what you claimed you cited. Perhaps you misspoke when you said "only"?
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Also neither this text nor the other quote really prevent a character with a sufficiently high level in a PrC from retraining his base class levels, as his levels in his PrC before retraining may be sufficient by themselves to qualify for the PrC (through skill points, additional levels in spellcasting). There will definitely need to be some clarification/errata/FAQ to deal with this corner case.
SKR already unofficially clarified that one in the thread KainPen mentioned when he indicated I was correct that "retraining is not meant to be a way to get around level limitations on character abilities."
Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy).
Now, this specifically deals with class features, but I think it establishes fairly conclusively the fact that retraining is not meant to be a way to get around level limitations on character abilities.
The ability of the fighter to retrain bonus feats into feats they didn't qualify for at the time they got those bonus feat slots is a specific perk attached to fighter bonus feats. It doesn't apply to the general retraining rules.
The alternative would be that you literally keep track of your character's progression level-by-level, which would result in a pretty massive amount of bookkeeping.
Not really. You don't have to keep track of the order in which your particular character took various feats/levels/skill ranks, just whether the final build could be legal from the ground up. Unless you have a massively complicated build it shouldn't be too hard.
Example 2: You have an Elf Magus 4 and want Dervish Dance. You have Weapon Finesse and 2 ranks in Perform (Dance). You can retrain Dervish Dance into your 3rd level feat slot because it would have been possible for you to qualify for Dervish Dance at level 3 (whether or not you actually had 2 ranks in perform at that level).
Example 3: You have a human rogue 1 / barbarian 1. You have two feats and you want to retrain those feats to Weapon Focus (sap) and Sap Adept. You don't have to know whether you took the barbarian or rogue level first to know that you can't do this, because both your feat slots were at level 1 and there is no way you could have had both BAB+1 and SA at level 1.
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Text stating prereqs are checked before 1st level is not the same as text stating that prereqs are only checked before 1st level. The former is what you cited, while the latter is what you claimed you cited. Perhaps you misspoke when you said "only"?
To think I hesitated on where to put the "only" so that I would avoid ambiguity ;-)
My take on it is : the RAW very specifically says that when you take the first level in a PrC, you need to have the prereqs. AFAIK it does not state anywhere that the prereqs are still needed to get more levels in a PrC beyond the first level.
Way I understand it, what is not explicitly forbidden is authorized in the game (barring GM veto of course).
For example, a character would need to be LE to take his first level in Red Mantis Assassin. But beyond that, since the RAW are silent, I believe that he could change his alignment (say to LN) and still be able to take levels in the PrC.
This may not be RAI, but I did not see anything in the RAW forbidding it.
I suggest this not as proof that my thoughts on retraining are right, but as a hypothetical situation to encourage people to think of the implications of allowing retraining to circumvent the normal limitations:
Should a Sorcerer 4 / Fighter 1 / Dragon Disciple 2 be able to retrain into a Dragon Disciple 7 (gaining +2 Str and +2 Con from DD levels) and use Form of the Dragon to take the shape of a medium dragon - an ability normally not available until 4 levels later, at the earliest?
I would say that is likely not the intention Paizo had in mind when they decided that retraining was a good idea. Also, that example probably is NOT the most optimized/powerful/ridiculous one out there, but it was the first thing that jumped to my head.
My 2 cp.
To be honest, I don't think it was Paizo's intention either, despite the fact that I've been arguing the idea that RAW doesn't seem to bar it.
I'm just hesitant to use the "it'll be overpowered" argument with the "SLAs qualifying you for prestige classes at level 2/3" revelations of late.
Example 1 should work because as far as I remember it doesn't say that you can't. Plus when you retrain you fulfill the prerequisites.
I would say that example 1 is a-okay.
I am uncertain whether example 2 is permissable by RAW, so I won't comment. If you take dev statements as RAW at your table, SKR already answered example 2 for you, though.
-Nearyn
To be honest, I don't think it was Paizo's intention either, despite the fact that I've been arguing the idea that RAW doesn't seem to bar it.
I'm just hesitant to use the "it'll be overpowered" argument with the "SLAs qualifying you for prestige classes at level 2/3" revelations of late.
In my opinion, "RAW doesn't seem to disallow it" is a fairly weak argument to make in many cases, especially this shortly after new content has been released. When the writing of the ability and the intent don't line up, I try to use sound judgement and make the call with the question of "what makes the most sense given the (perceived) intention?"
That said, I 100% agree with you on the SLA thing - that really kinda shook my faith in my judgement lining up with Paizo.
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Ok, this will come off very strongly worded, but I feel its necessary.
I don't care if this is a gray area as far as RAW goes.
It is patently ridiculous to think that a level of a prestige class could qualify you for another level of the same prestige class assuming you wouldn't already meet the prerequisites.
You cannot retrain into a combination that otherwise would not have been legal without retraining.
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Text stating prereqs are checked before 1st level is not the same as text stating that prereqs are only checked before 1st level. The former is what you cited, while the latter is what you claimed you cited. Perhaps you misspoke when you said "only"?I don't have my CRB available, but I can find no such text in the official PRD. What printing do you have? Perhaps that text was removed in eratta?If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.This is a very interesting piece as it goes directly against the previous RAW that requirements for a Prestige Class are checked only when taking the 1st level in the class (CRB, page 374, at the very beginning of the Chapter 11 - Prestige Classes)It appears in the PRD too. It is just not very obvious ;-)
"Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class."
There is no such text for gaining further levels in a PrC.
I would cite the assassin as precedent. The prereqs for PRCs are specifically list as "To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria." Once you become an assassin, the prereqs are irrelevant. You have to be evil to become an assassin, but there is nothing that says you have to stay evil to keep taking levels in assassin.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9h
Retraining: Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn't qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?
Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.
For example, if you are a 3rd-level rogue who took Improved Initiative at 1st level, you can retrain that feat and replace it with Weapon Focus. Even though Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of "base attack bonus +1" (which means you couldn't take it as a 1st-level rogue), it is a valid feat for your current level (3rd), and is therefore a valid choice for retraining.
(Note: Likewise, the fighter class ability to retrain fighter bonus feats does not require you to meet all of the new feat's prerequisites at the level you originally gained the feat.)
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Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9e
Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?
No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9e
Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?
No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).
But let's say I have a W5/Bloatmage 2. I can retrain out of W5--with W4 and Bloatmage 2, I still qualify for more Bloatmage.
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Official Rules Response
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But let's say I have a W5/Bloatmage 2. I can retrain out of W5--with W4 and Bloatmage 2, I still qualify for more Bloatmage.
No, you don't:
If you can't meet the requirements for a prestige class without using rules elements from that prestige class, you no longer qualify for that prestige class.
FAQ updated: "In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class."
But let's say I have a W5/Bloatmage 2. I can retrain out of W5--with W4 and Bloatmage 2, I still qualify for more Bloatmage.No, you don't:
If you can't meet the requirements for a prestige class without using rules elements from that prestige class, you no longer qualify for that prestige class.
FAQ updated: "In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class."
Bolded relevant part. What about other prestige classes?
Let's say I have 5 levels of fighter, 1 level of hellknight, and 1 level of, say, Golden legionarire, which also require BAB 5. I retrain one fighter level for, say, a Rogue level.Do I lose the PrC? I have 5 BAB for Hellknight from sources other than the HK prestige class (from golden legionaire), and I have 5BAB for Golden legionaire from other sources than Golden Legionaire itself. Do I qualify for it?
If the answer is yes... if I'm a Fighter 5/Hellknight 10/Golden Legionaire 5, could I retrain fighter levels for Golden Legionaire levels, in a way where I finish being Hell Knight 10 Golden Legionaire 10 at level 20?
EDIT: I re-ask my question (even if no longer relevant for PrC)
Let's say I have 5 levels of fighter, 1 level of hellknight, and 1 level of, say, Golden legionaire, which also require BAB 5. I retrain one fighter level for, say, a Rogue level.(Ie: another base class)
Do I lose the PrC? I have 5 BAB for Hellknight from sources other than the HK prestige class (from golden legionaire), and I have 5BAB for Golden legionaire from other sources than Golden Legionaire itself. Do I qualify for it?
This is why I will always rule that anything that is retrained must meet the requirements for the level it is replacing.
My (house)rule:
If you are level 10 and are retraining a level 4 feat, you can only qualify for feats you would have qualified for at level 4.
If you are level 10 and are retraining a class level that would make the PrC you chose at level 6 illegal at level 6 then you cannot do it.
In short, to me retraining is retraining as if you pick a level to change something and then build the character from that point. The number of changes you make are then what you have to retrain.
It avoids this whole issue.
- Gauss
With retraining, you can have more languages than a character built from the ground up could have
Care to explain how? Keep in mind that when you gain a permanent increase to your intelligence modifier from leveling up or other means, you get to add a bonus language.
Paladin of Baha-who?,
Here you go:
NEW LANGUAGE
You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.
The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.
- Gauss