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So I am just checking up on some math and stuff....
A player in our group brought out a 15th level Pistolero with a +8 modifier to dex, 2 +5 distance double barreled pistols, 2 weapon cords, and twf/ITWF. He had signature deed:whatever the extra damage one is called and all the good feats and such to help with reload and PBS and all that.
His 1st range increment is 40' from distance. He gets +1 hit, and damage within 30' for PBS....
How many attacks could he get off in a full attack and what should his damage look like?
We were seeing 12ish attacks each doing 1d8+4d6+24ish within 30'. Is this correct?
Not that all attacks would hit but if they did it would look like 12d8+48d6+288 or about 510 average damage if all hit the creature's touch AC....is that right, is my math off somehow?
Hmm... Even with Greater TWF he'd only be getting seven attacks out of that feat chain, Haste would give him an eighth attack, if he had the Rapid Shot feat he'd get a ninth attack, albeit with all attacks at a -2 penalty, but I don't see where he'd be getting the extra three attacks from. I won't bother trying to figure out where the damage is coming from that he/she is getting, because that kind of damage output will be fairly common at such a high level if you build your character right.
I hate, hate, hate weapon cords. Unrealistic, unbalanced, unplayable - IMO.
So what this guy wants to do is 48 actions in one six-second round, which includes 36 free actions in the round?
It would look like this:
1. Fire right gun
2. Fire left gun
3. Drop right gun
4. Reload left gun
5. Grab right gun
6. Drop left gun
7. Reload right gun
8. Grab left gun
9. Fire right gun
10. Fire left gun
11. Drop right gun
12. Reload left gun
13. Grab right gun
14. Drop left gun
15. Reload right gun
16. Grab left gun
17. Fire right gun
18. Fire left gun
19. Drop right gun
20. Reload left gun
21. Grab right gun
22. Drop left gun
23. Reload right gun
24. Grab left gun
25. Fire right gun
26. Fire left gun
27. Drop right gun
28. Reload left gun
29. Grab right gun
30. Drop left gun
31. Reload right gun
32. Grab left gun
33. Fire right gun
34. Fire left gun
35. Drop right gun
36. Reload left gun
37. Grab right gun
38. Drop left gun
39. Reload right gun
40. Grab left gun
41. Fire right gun
42. Fire left gun
43. Drop right gun
44. Reload left gun
45. Grab right gun
46. Drop left gun
47. Reload right gun
48. Grab left gun
This is utterly ridiculous and breaks any sense of verisimilitude the game tries to establish. I won't even go into the impossibility of treating guns like yo-yos, dropping them and re-catching them, always with your hand on the grip and finger on the trigger, 12 times in 6 seconds in between doing everything else.
Did I mention I hate weapon cords?
It's here, as a GM, that I invoke the following from the Core Rulebook in the description of Free Actions:
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn"
Your mileage may vary, but 36 free actions in between making a dozen attacks, all within 6 seconds, crosses my line of Free Action limits.
DM Blake, the Developers have clarified in an FAQ that attacks are not always alternating left/right/left/right/etc...
You can take all your main hand attacks first, then your off-hand attacks, as long as they go in highest-to-lowest order for each hand.
This lessens the number of free actions per round you'd be calculating dramatically. Especially with weapon cords. Have you ever seen people on shows like America's Got Talent with the paddles and rubber balls? I've seen them do one in each hand, one in each foot, and one in the mouth. So, swapping weapons once or twice in a round and catching them perfectly is just a matter of practice.
The thing I don't understand is that all these feats for reloading and lessening the action types don't really apply to double-barrel pistols. It even specifies in most of them that this applies to ONE BARREL of one firearm.
So how are double-barrel pistoleros getting around this reloading limitation?
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Actually it's way easier than that, I think it is :
3 BAB attacks doubled(to 6 attacks) by double barrels using one gun with free actions to reload it for each (so 6 fa). FA to drop that gun and quickdraw his other, to fire off his TWF,ITWF,STWF attacks using 6 more FA to reload between shots. So maybe 12-14 free actions, and I agree it is broken but i just want to know how many attacks he can have with a GM willing to hand wave the Free Actions?
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"Alchemical cartridges + Rapid Reload = free action to reload.
Only have 2 x +5 distance double barrel pistols, weapon cords, handy haversack, and boots of speed.
I have:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Weapon Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Signature Deed (Up Close and Personal I think it is)
Dodge
Improved Critical
and there's a 12th feat"
That is what he has going on right now, from his email to our group.
Even Rapid Reload with the Lightning Reload Deed (which, according to his email, he doesn't have) only allows a single barrel reload for each weapon to count as a free action. The other two barrels would still require a swift action apiece, according to that Deed's wording. And you only get a single swift action per round. Something's missing in his feat/deed chain to be able to reload both barrels of both guns as free actions.
There must be more info on his character somewhere that allows it, or the DM is allowing Rapid Reload to count for both barrels of his pistols (which would allow him a sick amount of attacks per round).
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Emphasis mine.
DM Blake, the Developers have clarified in an FAQ that attacks are not always alternating left/right/left/right/etc...
You can take all your main hand attacks first, then your off-hand attacks, as long as they go in highest-to-lowest order for each hand.
This lessens the number of free actions per round you'd be calculating dramatically. Especially with weapon cords.
No it doesn't. The order of actions doesn't matter.
Each time a barrel is fired, that barrel of that gun must be reloaded, which requires dropping the other gun since it takes two hands to load a gun. So fire any gun (either hand), drop other gun, reload the gun you fired, grab the dropped gun. Now fire any gun, drop other gun, reload the gun you fired, grab the dropped gun. Still requires 4 actions (one to shoot, 3 free actions to reload) per shot you fire.
12 shots = 48 actions, regardless of the order of firing. 12 of those actions, the actual attacks, are subsumed in the "Full Round Attack" and the other 36 actions are free actions to drop, reload, and re-grab guns between shooting.
I see what you're saying. Indeed that's a LOT of free actions. Even cutting it down as I said is still pushing the limits per round.
That's where DM interpretation of free action limits come into play.
Grabbing an item on a weapon cord is a swift, not a free
Valid point. I never play with them, but I assumed that the prevalence of posts about them here means that players have found a way around that (some feat, spell, trait, item, whatever, to make it a free action instead of swift), since there are so many threads about using various full attacks with various weapons involving weapon cords.
If there isn't any way around it, then all these other threads make a whole lot less sense.
Unless there's another ability stacked here I don't know about, you can't ever reload more than one double-barreled pistol once in a round due to swift action limitations. So I count that as a maximum of 6 attacks, unless otherwise presented with something that says different.
- Start with both pistols loaded and wielded (Initiate Full-Attack)
- Fire Both barrels of both pistols (4 attacks)
- Drop first pistol onto weapons cord to reload (1 free action)
- Reload both barrels of first pistol (1 free action, 1 swift action)
- Fire first pistol again (2 attacks)
That's pretty much it. You're out of swift actions unless you keep reloading that one barrel of your one pistol using Lightning Reload as a free action. And if that's the case, why bother with both barrels or two guns at all? You're taking penalties for no reason...
Alternatively, if you start out with one pistol dangling, you don't have enough swift attacks to both reload and retrieve. So it's one or the other.
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All of his attacks can fire two shots, not just the first one, so that's where he's getting 12+ from. And the cheese with the weapon cords is that he starts the round holding 2 guns, drops one as a free action so he's got a hand to reload his main hand weapon, makes all of his main hand attacks, then drops that gun as a free action and retrieves the second gun as a swift and makes all of those attacks.
And it should be noted that his TWF penalties are not -2, they're -4, as his double-barreled pistols are not light weapons. So his total penalty should be -10. I'm assuming based on the fact that you said he's got like +24 to his base damage that his 12th feat is Deadly Aim, which would mean he's probably got an additional -4 to hit there, so he should be around -14 total in penalties.
That means he's got +1 BAB left over, +5 from the guns, +1 from PBS, +1 from Weapon Focus, and +8 from Dex... So his total to hit on his first three (6 since double barrel) attacks, assuming Rapid Shot and all those feats are being used should be +16, then +11 for the next 2 (four), then +6 for the final volley of 2 (four).
So, 3 iterative attacks, 3 TWF attacks, 1 Rapid Shot attack, all multiplied by two for Double-Barreled pistols, gets him 14 attacks at the above bonuses, which will probably hit the touch ac of everything that is not a monk or ninja pretty handily, except for maybe the final volley. My biggest problem is the cheese of TWF when you don't actually have both weapons in hand during the attack sequence, but that's been argued to death in other threads and I've pretty much had to concede that it's just as RAW valid as TWF with thrown daggers.
A glove of storing is ideal for these kinds of builds. What's more, I liken it to juggling rather than yo-yo'ing.
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Right... forgot the -4 for non-light weapons. He also takes normal penalties for firing through cover, which a lot of people ignore.
I do disagree about the reloading of both barrels of each gun being no harder than reloading a single, if the Lightning Reload deed goes out of it's way to call out that it only applies to a single barrel of a double barreled weapon, why wouldn't that same logic carry here?
Also, look at the weapon cord entry. "interfere with finer actions"...
The deed limits it to a single barrel, but the combo he's using, alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload, has no such limitation.
I hope the GM was making sure his WBL was enough to afford the 14 alchemical cartridges a round he was burning.I also agree that the weapon cord limitation of "interferes with finer actions" should include the action of reloading a gun at high speed.
That being said, a Glove of Storing easily circumvents that particular issue, and then build is right back to being more or less legal by RAW.
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"Alchemical cartridges + Rapid Reload = free action to reload.
Only have 2 x +5 distance double barrel pistols, weapon cords, handy haversack, and boots of speed.
I have:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Weapon Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Signature Deed (Up Close and Personal I think it is)
Dodge
Improved Critical
and there's a 12th feat"That is what he has going on right now, from his email to our group.
that is most of his details to work with...
"Alchemical cartridges + Rapid Reload = free action to reload.
Only have 2 x +5 distance double barrel pistols, weapon cords, handy haversack, and boots of speed.
I have:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Weapon Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Signature Deed (Up Close and Personal I think it is)
Dodge
Improved Critical
and there's a 12th feat"That is what he has going on right now, from his email to our group.
that is most of his details to work with...
12th feat is Deadly Aim...... no Rapid Shot
BAB: +15
PBS: +1
WF: +1
Enhancement: +5
Dex: +8 (forgot stat bumps for the character, so could be +9)
TWF: -4
Double barrel shot: -4
Deadly Aim: -4
Attack = 17/12/7 (primary) 17/12/7 (off-hand) = 12 shots <==== these shots do not include PBS addition
Also took as a skill Craft Alchemy for 1/10 the cost. Sure did have the money for it all. =P
There's the work for you guys. Enjoy.
Question I have is, does the precision damage apply to every shot or just to half of them?
Without Rapid Shot, he can fire six single shots at +21/+16/+11 primary and +21/+16/+11 off-hand, counting all bonuses (BAB, Dex, Weapon Focus, enhancement bonus) and penalties (-4 Two-Weapon Fighting with a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, -4 Deadly Aim) except Point Blank Shot. If firing both barrels at once (an additional -4 penalty), the sequence becomes (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) primary and (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) off-hand.
How the RAW reloading works:
Drop off-hand pistol (free), *fire with primary (1st iterative), reload (free action with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges), fire with primary (2nd iterative), reload (free), fire with primary (3rd iterative), reload (free), drop primary (free), retrieve off-hand (swift), fire off-hand (1st iterative), reload (free), fire off-hand (2nd iterative), reload (free), fire off-hand (3rd iterative), reload (free). After the first round, repeat from the * counting the pistol in-hand as the primary.
The only difference between firing single shots and both barrels at once is the need use two free actions to reload both barrels in-between attacks; considering that it can be "explained" as "grabbing two cartridges at once (between the index and middle fingers, as well as with the thumb and index finger) when reloading," getting all bent out of shape over reloading both barrels at the same time that a zen archer monk can "flurry" with a bow is IMO not worth the angst.
He will be very effective against an enemy with poor touch AC at short range; of course, at that range, he's within charging distance for the animal totem barbarian, the pounce-rake animal companion or eidolon, etc. (yay, rocket-tag) Against other opponents, he'll be able to do consistent damage (4d6 of damage per attack, even on a miss); however, a guaranteed 48d6 of potential damage per round (for double-firing) is less impressive if it has to be split between multiple opponents (four opponents drops it down to around 12d6 per opponent; less than the sorcerer/wizard 15 with an Intensified Maximized fireball or lightning bolt). The character will also burn through somewhat expensive ammunition at a rapid rate (36 gp per round for single shots, 72 gp per round for double shots; and that's if he's making his own alchemical cartridges at 50% - Gunsmithing feat: "If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge"); make sure that he's keeping track of how much ammunition he actually has.
Without Rapid Shot, he can fire six single shots at +21/+16/+11 primary and +21/+16/+11 off-hand, counting all bonuses (BAB, Dex, Weapon Focus, enhancement bonus) and penalties (-4 Two-Weapon Fighting with a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, -4 Deadly Aim) except Point Blank Shot. If firing both barrels at once (an additional -4 penalty), the sequence becomes (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) primary and (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) off-hand.
How the RAW reloading works:
** spoiler omitted **He will be very effective against an enemy with poor touch AC at short range; of course, at that range, he's within charging distance for the animal totem barbarian, the pounce-rake animal companion or eidolon, etc. (yay, rocket-tag) Against other opponents, he'll be able to do consistent damage (4d6 of damage per attack, even on a miss); however, a guaranteed 48d6 of potential damage per round (for double-firing) is less impressive if it has to...
Each cartridge is just 12 gp. So they'll cost just 6 gp/shot. I'd assume they created enough to last awhile and will be keeping track.
Even if there is a way around the weapons cord, I'm assuming that's the quick draw feat, You still run into the problem of reloading. Between each shot is not one but at least 2 free actions. Making it 28 free actions to reload. Even if he's only using one hand at a time that's another free action to draw the weapon making it 29; unless he's that chick from the anime that can bounce bullets out of her top and reload her revolver with out using her hands.
In general, what your player wants to do is half-way possible... but not with the weapons he wants to do it with. It's easier to convince a DM to let you take 3 or 4 free actions a round than it is to take 29.
I play a dual wielding pistolero when I can convince the DM to let me use Revolvers. It gets expensive, unless you can make your own ammo, then not so much. I can reload all of my cambers, IE barrels, needing 14 free actions; my group considers that if you can draw the weapon as a free action you can tuck it away as one. But that's if I let the chambers go empty. Rapid Shot was never designed to be used with crossbows, it can be with certain feats and the correct crossbow, but I see pistols as the same way as crossbows. With the right abilities you can lower the amount of time to reload to a free action; but stick with the wording for free actions. It takes no time at all but there may be a limit to the number of free actions taken. 29 free actions? That sounds like a full round action to me.
DM's are players to... so when my group of level 15 adventurers kills the party don't be mad, my char's needed the exp and loot too.
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Even if there is a way around the weapons cord, I'm assuming that's the quick draw feat, You still run into the problem of reloading. Between each shot is not one but at least 2 free actions. Making it 28 free actions to reload. Even if he's only using one hand at a time that's another free action to draw the weapon making it 29; unless he's that chick from the anime that can bounce bullets out of her top and reload her revolver with out using her hands.
In general, what your player wants to do is half-way possible... but not with the weapons he wants to do it with. It's easier to convince a DM to let you take 3 or 4 free actions a round than it is to take 29.
I play a dual wielding pistolero when I can convince the DM to let me use Revolvers. It gets expensive, unless you can make your own ammo, then not so much. I can reload all of my cambers, IE barrels, needing 14 free actions; my group considers that if you can draw the weapon as a free action you can tuck it away as one. But that's if I let the chambers go empty. Rapid Shot was never designed to be used with crossbows, it can be with certain feats and the correct crossbow, but I see pistols as the same way as crossbows. With the right abilities you can lower the amount of time to reload to a free action; but stick with the wording for free actions. It takes no time at all but there may be a limit to the number of free actions taken. 29 free actions? That sounds like a full round action to me.
DM's are players to... so when my group of level 15 adventurers kills the party don't be mad, my char's needed the exp and loot too.
You don't switch guns with each shot. You have the right gun in hand, Gun in left is dangling, fire both barrels of RHgun, 2 free actions to reload, Fire both again, 2 free actions to reload, fire both again, 2 free actions to reload . Then you free action drop the RHgun, Swift action retrieve the loaded LHgun, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, free action to reload. Next round you use the LHgun for the first 3 double attacks and the RHgun for the last 3 double attacks.
It is 13 free actions a round and 1 swift action to achieve this.|
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Without Rapid Shot, he can fire six single shots at +21/+16/+11 primary and +21/+16/+11 off-hand, counting all bonuses (BAB, Dex, Weapon Focus, enhancement bonus) and penalties (-4 Two-Weapon Fighting with a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, -4 Deadly Aim) except Point Blank Shot. If firing both barrels at once (an additional -4 penalty), the sequence becomes (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) primary and (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) off-hand.
How the RAW reloading works:
** spoiler omitted **He will be very effective against an enemy with poor touch AC at short range; of course, at that range, he's within charging distance for the animal totem barbarian, the pounce-rake animal companion or eidolon, etc. (yay, rocket-tag) Against other opponents, he'll be able to do consistent damage (4d6 of damage per attack, even on a miss); however, a guaranteed 48d6 of potential damage per round (for double-firing) is less impressive if it has to...
Each cartridge is just 12 gp. So they'll cost just 6 gp/shot. I'd assume they created enough to last awhile and will be keeping track.
I know this is your PC so maybe you could help explain where all the damage comes from besides the 1d8 +4d6, and the +13 from weapon bonus and dex....I still can't figure out how we came to +24....
And it's pretty humorous that our GM is flipping over this...
Ok, I finally understand the mechanics of the reloading as free actions after painfully researching everything to do with firearms reloading(and now I wonder why Lightning Reload even bothers to exist unless it's an option to sinking a feat into Rapid Reload), but my problem is still the same as most others with this full-attack action.
The number of free actions you are given per round is limited by your DM's interpretation of what you can reasonably accomplish in one round. You would need so many free actions to make this happen that it's just not practical to be able to do it all in 6 seconds.
Think of it this way: Yes, he is "entitled" to all those attacks because of his build. But can he reasonably accomplish every action to get every attack in 6 seconds? I don't think so, some DM's might.
So I don't wonder at all why his DM is flipping over it.
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There is a another kink in this discussion.
The rules for double-barrel musket and double-barrel shotgun clearly state you may fire both barrels as part of an attack. But the rules for double-barrel pistol state you may fire both barrels as part of the same "action." So what does this mean? Well, there are 3 possible interpretations.
A) The designers made a poor choice of words/type for double-barrel pistol. It is meant to work exactly the same way as the other double-barrel weapons.
Pros: Its more consistence with the other similar weapons and does not require a different and possibly confusing mechanic.
Cons: That's not what the rules say. It was written differently for a reason.
B) It means that you only get to fire both barrels once in a turn, either as part of a standard action attack or a full-round attack. Like Rapid-Shot, it gives you a penalty to get one extra attack.
Pros: Probably the closest interpretation to what the rules actually say.
Cons: It is not consistent with either how the other double-barrel weapons work, or how the other powers that give you an extra attack work. In cases like Rapid-Shot, it clearly spells out you only get one extra attack and that using it gives you a -2 penalty to all attacks you make the turn. The description of double-barrel pistol does not clearly spell this out and does not include text stating it adds the -4 penalty to all attacks made that round.
C) When they say 'action' regarding an attack, they mean 'attack action,' which essentially means, "an attack made as a Standard Action." In other words, you can only fire-both barrels as a Standard Action.
Pros: There is some precedent for this, especially if you look at how Vital Strike works.
Cons: How Vital Strike and Attack Actions work are not clearly defined by the rules. Currently, based on some Paizo employee feedback, it is interpreted as a Standard Action attack, but this is not actually an official clarification. In addition, if the designers meant for it to be a Standard Action to fire both barrels, why didn't they just say that?
I am personally torn between A & B as I really do not know which one of these two is actually right. I don't believe C is the right answer, however. Regardless, this means double-barrel pistols are subject to DM interpretation.
I find the whole Gunslinger class to be quite unfortunate, but one thing which really irks me in the fluff division is that the iconic Gunslinger is a double wielder, which mechanically is the most difficult to pull off and, unless one plays with cheese like Gloves of Storing, weapon chords or alchemist third arms, extremely ineffective.
Good point, Trollbill. The wording on that particular weapon is, indeed, confusing and subject to individual DM interpretation. Table variance applies.
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I find the whole Gunslinger class to be quite unfortunate, but one thing which really irks me in the fluff division is that the iconic Gunslinger is a double wielder, which mechanically is the most difficult to pull off and, unless one plays with cheese like Gloves of Storing, weapon chords or alchemist third arms, extremely ineffective.
If you look at the iconic though, she isn't actually doing the cheese. She's using two guns, but isn't actually TWF. She's just using multiple guns to make her normal iteratives specifically because of the issues involved in reloading.
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I find the whole Gunslinger class to be quite unfortunate, but one thing which really irks me in the fluff division is that the iconic Gunslinger is a double wielder, which mechanically is the most difficult to pull off and, unless one plays with cheese like Gloves of Storing, weapon chords or alchemist third arms, extremely ineffective.
Depends on how you look at it. Remember, we are talking emerging firearms here. A Colt revolver is not an emerging fire arm. Instead of thinking Western movie, think Pirate movie. In those, the pirates would pull of duel wielding pistols by simply having lots of them they would QuickDraw, shoot, then drop.
I know this is your PC so maybe you could help explain where all the damage comes from besides the 1d8 +4d6, and the +13 from weapon bonus and dex....I still can't figure out how we came to +24....
And it's pretty humorous that our GM is flipping over this...
Deadly Aim?
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Deadly Aim?
I know this is your PC so maybe you could help explain where all the damage comes from besides the 1d8 +4d6, and the +13 from weapon bonus and dex....I still can't figure out how we came to +24....
And it's pretty humorous that our GM is flipping over this...
Yeah, Deadly AIm at that level should be worth +8, then another +8 for DEX and a +5 weapon gives him +23, or +24 with PBS.
Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.
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Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.
Do you put a limit on the number of arrows an archer can draw and load as a free action?
Do you put a limit on the number of arrows an archer can draw and load as a free action?Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.
If it was a double bow I might consider it. :)
Yes I know many shot is exactly this... once.
Yeah, Deadly AIm at that level should be worth +8, then another +8 for DEX and a +5 weapon gives him +23, or +24 with PBS.Deadly Aim?
I know this is your PC so maybe you could help explain where all the damage comes from besides the 1d8 +4d6, and the +13 from weapon bonus and dex....I still can't figure out how we came to +24....
And it's pretty humorous that our GM is flipping over this...
Yup..... the guy above is correct. =)
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Do you put a limit on the number of arrows an archer can draw and load as a free action?Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.
If I were inclined to limit free actions, I'd probably figure what the maximum number of free actions an archer would need to take to cover his full attack routine and AoO's at 20th level and use that as a good baseline for what the GS should be able to do.
If I were inclined to limit free actions, I'd probably figure what the maximum number of free actions an archer would need to take to cover his full attack routine and AoO's at 20th level and use that as a good baseline for what the GS should be able to do.Do you put a limit on the number of arrows an archer can draw and load as a free action?Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.
Couldn't there be some type of item that lets you reload both barrels at the same time? And besides, I didn't cheese it completely because I did not take Rapid Shot... I could have, but thought that was just too much.
And yes, it is hilarious that the DM is flipping out about this.
I find the whole Gunslinger class to be quite unfortunate, but one thing which really irks me in the fluff division is that the iconic Gunslinger is a double wielder, which mechanically is the most difficult to pull off and, unless one plays with cheese like Gloves of Storing, weapon chords or alchemist third arms, extremely ineffective.Depends on how you look at it. Remember, we are talking emerging firearms here. A Colt revolver is not an emerging fire arm. Instead of thinking Western movie, think Pirate movie. In those, the pirates would pull of duel wielding pistols by simply having lots of them they would QuickDraw, shoot, then drop.
Oh man Troll! That's a great idea! If the DM puts the kabosh on me loading the guns 24 times...... I'll just carry 6 of them and quick draw them all. XD I love that idea! Oh man..... sure I could only do it once doing the double barrel trick but hey, save it for the BBEG.
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Is there anything in this build that is illegal for Society play? If not then how would it work? Every GM would have a different ruling on how many free actions per round should occur. I would rather see a ruling on how many free actions are possible in a round to limit this stuff instead of a big nerfing on the Gunslinger classes.
Also the note about finding it funny that the GM is flipping was more in line with the fact that he always does this type of stuff as a player and the tit-for-tat is funny.
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Oh man Troll! That's a great idea! If the DM puts the kabosh on me loading the guns 24 times...... I'll just carry 6 of them and quick draw them all. XD I love that idea! Oh man..... sure I could only do it once doing the double barrel trick but hey, save it for the BBEG.I find the whole Gunslinger class to be quite unfortunate, but one thing which really irks me in the fluff division is that the iconic Gunslinger is a double wielder, which mechanically is the most difficult to pull off and, unless one plays with cheese like Gloves of Storing, weapon chords or alchemist third arms, extremely ineffective.Depends on how you look at it. Remember, we are talking emerging firearms here. A Colt revolver is not an emerging fire arm. Instead of thinking Western movie, think Pirate movie. In those, the pirates would pull of duel wielding pistols by simply having lots of them they would QuickDraw, shoot, then drop.
We had a Sword and Pistol tiefling where that was his big boss fight trick, using his rapier to make his main hand attacks, hopefully applying his critical feats, and then using his off-hand attacks to Quickdraw all four of his double-barrel pistols and finish off whatever he was attacking.
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Is there anything in this build that is illegal for Society play? If not then how would it work? Every GM would have a different ruling on how many free actions per round should occur. I would rather see a ruling on how many free actions are possible in a round to limit this stuff instead of a big nerfing on the Gunslinger classes.
Also the note about finding it funny that the GM is flipping was more in line with the fact that he always does this type of stuff as a player and the tit-for-tat is funny.
In Society play, GM fiat is pretty heavily restricted, and this build is more or less legal. Of course, Society play doesn't allow crafting, so you have to buy all of your alchemical cartridges at market value as you go along, so a lot of Gunslingers end up very broke, very fast, and often have a hard time affording better weapons and equipment. This build works a lot better when you jump in at 15th level than when you have to work your up to it.
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A level 20 archer can fire 7 times at 20th level with the possibility of 8-12 AOP with combat reflexes (given a bunch of idiot melee enemies running at him). Thats about 20 free actions a turn a double rifle musketeer can fire 12 shots a round (12 free actions), a alchemist gunslinger (with a loading arm)can fire 20 shots around at level 20 so 20 free actions. Weapons cords do push the number of free actions into silyness though so I wouldn't blame a gm for saying no.
So it seems like, if one were inclined to limit free actions, 20 or so in a round would be about the right place?
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If I were inclined to limit free actions, I'd probably figure what the maximum number of free actions an archer would need to take to cover his full attack routine and AoO's at 20th level and use that as a good baseline for what the GS should be able to do.Do you put a limit on the number of arrows an archer can draw and load as a free action?Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.
So somewhere in the 8 range for free actions just for his attack routine....He is currently using 13 free actions which isn't really that much more. [/devil's advocate]
A level 20 archer can fire 7 times at 20th level with the possibility of 8-12 AOP with combat reflexes (given a bunch of idiot melee enemies running at him). Thats about 20 free actions a turn a double rifle musketeer can fire 12 shots a round (12 free actions), a alchemist gunslinger (with a loading arm)can fire 20 shots around at level 20 so 20 free actions. Weapons cords do push the number of free actions into silyness though so I wouldn't blame a gm for saying no.
In my mind it is more about consecutive free actions as opposed to a hard limit. An archer is using one free action between shots to reload. The Gunslinger is using two. Someone drawing multiple loaded weapons is using one. Not saying that any situation, or even this one, where using two free actions in a row to accomplish your next action is something to kill. But there does become a point where it can get silly.
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A level 20 archer can fire 7 times at 20th level with the possibility of 8-12 AOP with combat reflexes (given a bunch of idiot melee enemies running at him). Thats about 20 free actions a turn a double rifle musketeer can fire 12 shots a round (12 free actions), a alchemist gunslinger (with a loading arm)can fire 20 shots around at level 20 so 20 free actions. Weapons cords do push the number of free actions into silyness though so I wouldn't blame a gm for saying no.So it seems like, if one were inclined to limit free actions, 20 or so would be about the right place?
The weapon cord is used once a round and as a swift action....it isn't doing anything to push the number of free actions.
Here is how the attack routine breaks down, again:
You don't switch guns with each shot. You have the right gun in hand, Gun in left is dangling, fire both barrels of RHgun, 2 free actions to reload, Fire both again, 2 free actions to reload, fire both again, 2 free actions to reload . Then you free action drop the RHgun, Swift action retrieve the loaded LHgun, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, free action to reload. Next round you use the LHgun for the first 3 double attacks and the RHgun for the last 3 double attacks.
It is 13 free actions a round and 1 swift action to achieve this.