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So the edict of Cayden Cailean is ... drink.

Okay, sounds fun. Now how does that work?


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Just finished up a 5 year campaign that started with us enslaved at lvl 1 and ended at lvl 29 and mythic tier 8.

Playing in a world that has been running since the late 80s. This was the 7th campaign and we saved the plane (I think.. *)

I hope linking to the imgur gallery is fine.

Note: We use a ton of house rules and there were many many interventions by gods and the like, so the character has no real way to be reconciled by RAW.

https://imgur.com/gallery/Wkk9w6d

Happy to answer any questions if y'all have any.

Hope y'all enjoy!

* we finished last weekend, but the DM will be giving us an epilogue that lets us know how the plane is getting along


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VoodistMonk wrote:
You would need vampiric and cruel on a viscous anything just to keep yourself from suffering too much. I have never seen anyone choose to put viscous on anything, personally. I have both received and handed out viscous weapons as loot, though.

Heh. I am currently running a 14 Synthesist/11 Preacher that has it on his offhand and natural attacks. Let's just say he is ... very odd.


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I prefer Fate to Luck.
Making the big baddie re-roll that 20 is amazing.


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Sow their toes and fingers together. Sow all orifices shut. Cut off head. Impale head with a silver spike. Burn body and head in different locations.

That should do the trick.


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I am currently playing a heavy flail wielding Synthesist who uses called shots to the junk (vitals) along with enforcer to give a nice -4 on most everything. Critting on a 17-20 gives lots of fun nauseated as well.


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No. You have two characters (Battle Oracle, Samurai) who can step up and tank easily. I would stick Cleric. If anything I would change out of merciful, but it really looks like your group should have damage covered.


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Mahtobedis wrote:

@iammercy you mean Champion of Irori. Campion of the Enlightened is what the d20pfsrd call it because of copyright.

Champion of Irori is truly amazing if you have the stats to pull it off, and it looks like you do.

Champion of Irori is a monk paladin that can use ki points to smite.

Ahh.. yes then.

And if the ruling comes back 'they stack'.. take a dip or two of Sacred Fist!


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Champion of the Enlightened could be fun.


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Onyxlion wrote:
For sheer channel dice wouldn't a hex channeler witch that took extra hex with all her feats and took the channel increase end up with 19d6?

I think a Gnome could get 22d6, 24d6 with the Phylactery of Positive Channeling.


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I am betting that 5d6 damage and 2d4 rounds being sickened is rather painful. Of course so is a 10d6 fireball, does a fireball have the [Pain] descriptor?

Most likely the designers decided that a class called 'Inquisitor' should have some inquisition spells that did not require evil alignment to be useful.


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Y'all are still on this?
I think Paizo has this answered..

Answer truthfully or be in massive pain

So yea.. the very definition of torture all wrapped up in a spell. Oh yea, the spell is not evil.


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Gee thanks. I wasn't aware that thinking people bringing their RL issues into a PF advice thread was pro-rl-torture though.


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You two are ridiculous.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
iammercy wrote:

No torture is not always evil.

This is a game, so I don't feel at all badly about bringing other fictional examples in.

Anyone who has seen 24 will understand that Jack is nowhere near evil, and he tortures people. It's about context and intent.

Torture is always an Evil act. In a world where it works, it's potentially one a non-Evil person might perform in a 'for the greater good' sort of way but that makes it a necessary Evil, not a non-Evil act.

And such a world has little similarity to the real world.

iammercy wrote:
As long as you have the time.
Torture doesn't work, though. Especially if you don't have time. Even if you believe torture works, the first several things people tell you when you torture them are pretty much always gonna be lies. And that's after they start talking, which often takes a while. Torture takes days at a minimum, and more usually weeks or months, to break people to the point of saying things you want to hear.

I think we can safely assume that in a conversation about an Inquisitor using torture on magicians in a world where roasting someone with a ball of fire is not an Evil act yet causing someone who has already hit you with a two handed sword some pain (Retribution) is an Evil act, we are in a world very much NOT similar to the real world.

The reality is that you are in Pathfinder world, where torturing is a heal check that takes 1 hour. Yes it is also an evil act, but just like anything else, mitigated by context and circumstances.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Tyvara wrote:

Torture if part of interrogation if done professionally is unfortunatly quite good in extracting information.

You can get decent information from WW1, WW2, if you are lucky the cold war, and even more recent examples. To work with the informations, or if the poor soul does not have the informations you seek is another story, but....
And I mean professionally, like being done by people who are experts in Psychology, medicine and more.

This is simply factually untrue. Check out Hanns Scharff, for example. The very best interrogators of the Luftwaffe. Also, just about the nicest guy ever to the people he was interrogating...which would be why what he did worked and worked extremely well. Unlike many of the less pleasant interrogators.

And he and some of the prisoners he interrogated wound up friends after the war. So...yeah, even if you want to argue torture works (it doesn't, but for the sake of argument...) more humane methods work better.

As long as you have the time.


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No torture is not always evil.
This is a game, so I don't feel at all badly about bringing other fictional examples in.

Anyone who has seen 24 will understand that Jack is nowhere near evil, and he tortures people. It's about context and intent.


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tony gent wrote:

That's high i don't like the idea that you always succeed to my way of thinking there's always a chance that you succeed or fail

I've been thinking of using open ended rolls that way there is always a chance be it a slim one at best

But there isn't always a chance that you fail.

A wizard has 0% chance to not cast his spell if he does things right.
A Monk has 0% chance to take damage from falling if she does things right.
Anyone with a total of 19+ in Acrobatics has a 0% chance to fail at a running 20ft jump.

It can go on and on.
Someone focuses a thing and they will be good at it.


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cnetarian wrote:
iammercy wrote:
cnetarian wrote:
iammercy wrote:


Synthesist gets Dimension Door SLA at 6th. So they can start the hopping train at 11th as well.

Feat retraining rules can push it down to 8th level (need +6 BAB to get Dimensional Dervish), which isn't too out of whack because using the feat retraining rules a character can do 6 levels of any class then 3 levels of horizon walker being able to hop at level 9. Of course, this only applies at tables which allow the use of the retraining rules.
Actually the Synth has a BAB of +6 at 7th level since you use the Eidolon stats.
I guess that would work, the synthesist can take the feat at level 7 and use it when fused but has to wait until level 8 to use it when not fused. Of course the SLA dimension door only works when fused...

Sure. But by lvl 11 (when you get Dervish) you have it a bunch of times from spells as well. Oh also Summoners get Dimension Door on their list at 7th.


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LoneKnave wrote:
Yeah, but they already have access to pounce at lvl1 so it's not worth as much for them. Of course, if you use biped or serpent base form it's still pretty good.

What they don't have access to is.

Port into melee range of something with reach.
Hit it. Port behind. Create Flanking for self. Hit it a bunch more.
Port away.

All without any attacks of opportunity. :)


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cnetarian wrote:
iammercy wrote:


Synthesist gets Dimension Door SLA at 6th. So they can start the hopping train at 11th as well.

Feat retraining rules can push it down to 8th level (need +6 BAB to get Dimensional Dervish), which isn't too out of whack because using the feat retraining rules a character can do 6 levels of any class then 3 levels of horizon walker being able to hop at level 9. Of course, this only applies at tables which allow the use of the retraining rules.

Actually the Synth has a BAB of +6 at 7th level since you use the Eidolon stats.


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StreamOfTheSky wrote:

It's not crazy at all.

Side note, barring some houserule, you won't actually have Dim Dervish until level 13 (or level 11 with Paragon Surge spell). The Dimensional feats are not combat feats, there's no way I know of to take them as class bonus feats to pick them up faster than one every 2 levels (starting at 9 for Horizon Walker).

Synthesist gets Dimension Door SLA at 6th. So they can start the hopping train at 11th as well.


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Here is a build that has an easy 72 intimidate by 20. :)

Intimidating Inquisitor/Synthesist


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A good trick for the melee Synth is to use evolution points to get Shadow Blend and cast Evolution Surge for Shadow Form when you want it. Constant concealment, total concealment on demand and no permanent negative of dealing 1/2 damage.

Interestingly enough a ranged Synth deals full damage using RAW. "The eidolon's melee attacks deal only half damage to corporeal creatures."


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I believe Displacement just gives a miss chance, not concealment of any kind.

Total Concealment is a thing though.
"Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."

Once again we have a lovely example of things in parentheses.


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Sounds like the Synthesist could fix all of the house rules.
Diplomacy 26 at 1st.
Can't double move? How about a base move of 60? Fly of 80?
Languages? Just cast Tongues.
Full round to stand? Fly, take the Dimension Dervish feat line and charge from prone, or just have 12 legs and be untrippable.
Long cast spells? Just get pre-fight buffs.


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Gauss wrote:

iammercy, no, the spell is clear to everyone but you. The developers clearly intended the people who can benefit to be those with a good aura as a class feature or an good alignment subtype.

- Gauss

Thank you for your input.


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blahpers wrote:
C'mon, iammercy, you can't seriously believe that parentheses can only convey optional information.

Actually I was more thinking along the lines that the developers meant to have the words 'for example' and forgot them.

However, what I said was "often times text within parenthesis is used to explain something". Often times != can only.

James Jacobs has chimed in on this.
Ask MJ
Although from his response he clearly doesn't actually know either. But it hardly matters.


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James Jacobs wrote:
iammercy wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
iammercy wrote:

I want to approach a previously hit upon question from a different direction if that's ok.

Q: Why should only paladins, clerics, and good outsiders benefit from Litany of Righteousness?

A few points that seem relevant.
A. The first sentence of the spell implies it should benefit 'good creatures'.
B. The class feature Good Aura only enhances the good aura that all aligned creatures of 5HD or more have.

Because it uses the word "litany" in its title, and "litany" is a word that is tied strongly to faith and religious services that it should create an effect that focuses only on the most devout of a faith's champions.
But the other dozen or so "litany" spells are not like this at all. As far as I can see Litany of Righteousness is the only Litany spell that an Inquisitor cannot benefit from.

Then I suggest you head over to the rules forum and ask. I wasn't involved in the design or development, and was just taking a guess as to what might have been the thought processes behind the scenes. Apparently I was wrong.

THAT SAID: Not every spell should be equally great for everyone who can cast it. Spiritual weapon, for example, is not as great when cast by an oracle when cast by a cleric. That's fine. That's good for the game.

I don't disagree with your 'THAT SAID' at all. It is true though that this one spell is literally useless to the Inquisitor.

Really though if one spell doesn't work right that isn't so bad considering the amazing system.


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James Jacobs wrote:
iammercy wrote:

I want to approach a previously hit upon question from a different direction if that's ok.

Q: Why should only paladins, clerics, and good outsiders benefit from Litany of Righteousness?

A few points that seem relevant.
A. The first sentence of the spell implies it should benefit 'good creatures'.
B. The class feature Good Aura only enhances the good aura that all aligned creatures of 5HD or more have.

Because it uses the word "litany" in its title, and "litany" is a word that is tied strongly to faith and religious services that it should create an effect that focuses only on the most devout of a faith's champions.

But the other dozen or so "litany" spells are not like this at all. As far as I can see Litany of Righteousness is the only Litany spell that an Inquisitor cannot benefit from.


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I want to approach a previously hit upon question from a different direction if that's ok.

Q: Why should only paladins, clerics, and good outsiders benefit from Litany of Righteousness?

A few points that seem relevant.
A. The first sentence of the spell implies it should benefit 'good creatures'.
B. The class feature Good Aura only enhances the good aura that all aligned creatures of 5HD or more have.


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Turgan wrote:

So I did not remember 100% correctly, it was James Jacobs who answered a question in his Ask-me-all-you-want-thread:

the fifth post

Thank you!


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Turgan wrote:
iammercy wrote:
Turgan wrote:

iammercy: maybe you should not ask a question if you can not live with the answer?

Besides, even the developer of this spell (or one of the authors of the book it is in)has once stated in this forum, that it was probably a mistake to make this spell available to paladins and inquistors instead of clerics and paladins, as inquistors do not have an Aura granted by a class Feature.

That would have been a great thing to have linked.

Also, unless the answer comes from one of the devs it is hardly automatically true.

Why should I have linked it? Read your second sentence again and tell me it would have made a difference.

Well..

The first sentence of the spell implies it would help anything with a good aura.
A paladins good aura is the same good aura as anyone else's of sufficient level.
As far as I can tell every single other Litany spell is intended to work for an Inquisitor.
The number of mistakes or unclear wording in pathfinder is hardly 0.
The developers could very easily have been attempting to clarify what a good aura is, as opposed to limiting which good auras are included.
Oh, and a good reason to link it would be that it would have clarified the developers intent for the spell.


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Turgan wrote:

iammercy: maybe you should not ask a question if you can not live with the answer?

Besides, even the developer of this spell (or one of the authors of the book it is in)has once stated in this forum, that it was probably a mistake to make this spell available to paladins and inquistors instead of clerics and paladins, as inquistors do not have an Aura granted by a class Feature.

That would have been a great thing to have linked.

Also, unless the answer comes from one of the devs it is hardly automatically true.


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Scavion, It's a bloody question because often times text within parenthesis is used to explain something as opposed to being a limiter. Of course had you read the thread you would know that.

Gauss, you are making up words. Obviously it is not based on 'a good aura from a class feature' since the first sentence states very clearly 'Calling down a litany of anathema, you make an evil more
susceptible to the attacks of good creatures' and it also specifically includes outsiders (who don't have a good aura from a class feature [see, this is how parenthesis usually work]).

blahpers, except it's nothing like that at all. The spell specifically starts out saying 'hey guys! This is for good creatures' then later, if you take the parens to be exclusive says 'haha.. just kidding'. So it would be more like if Paizo wrote 'You can apply your Dex modifier to a light weapon' and then three sentences later wrote 'oh just kidding, only if you are under 4'3"'.


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So nothing from any official source on this.

Clearly an aura exists for everyone, although slightly stronger for some.

And Gauss.. a 5th level good Rogue has a Good Aura from the RAW. See the spell Detect Good (which points to Detect Evil).

Claxon. You actually cannot promise me something that has not been clarified by them that wrote things. You may be correct as to their intent but it is a muddy thing.


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Gauss wrote:

But an 11th level Good Rogue does not have a Good Aura from a class feature.

- Gauss

And a 400th level Paladin does not have a Good Aura from a class feature either.. only a bonus to their good aura.


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Gauss wrote:


Simply having a run of the mill good aura is insufficient and this really does not have anything to do with Detect Good and regular alignment auras.

- Gauss

BUt that is exactly the point. A paladins aura is nothing more than what anyone else has, just stronger.


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Paladin:
The power of a paladin's aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.

Cleric:
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see detect evil for details).

Both state very clearly that these class skills enhance the aura that all things have.

i.e. An 11th level Good Rogue does have a Good Aura.


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In fact.
Aligned outsiders have exactly the same aura as aligned creatures of enough HD.

There isn't even a distinction mentioned other than in Detect Good/Evil.


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Claxon wrote:
Outsiders with the [good] subtype also have good auras.

So do aligned creatures with 5 or more HD.


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mplindustries wrote:
The Good Aura referenced by Litany of Righteousness is the Aura class feature of Clerics and Paladins or a creature with the Good subtype. Registering to Detect Good is irrelevant.

Except that the aura that a paladin or cleric gives off is the exact same as the one detected by Detect Good.

A 4th level Paladin and an 11th level Good Rogue have the same aura.


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Litany:
If the target is evil, it takes double damage from attacks made by creatures with a good aura (from a class feature or as a creature with the good subtype).

Detect Good:
As Detect Evil

Detect Evil:
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

Who shows up?
Aligned Creature (that counts the PCs) of 5HD or more
Paladins and Clerics of 1HD or more.

There is obviously no question that a Good PC of 5HD has an Good Aura.
Is there any reason to believe that the information in the parentheses for the Litany mean that nothing else that has a Good Aura counts? It seems more likely that what is in the parentheses lets you know what sort of 'good aura' we are talking about. Not limiting it to only those two things.


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Karuth wrote:


To answer your questions.
He can have the feat chain by level 11. When he takes 2 levels of fighter directly after getting dimension door at level 9 he gets 4 feats (2 fighter feats + one feat at level 9 and 11)
But yes. It's a high level encounter.

The Dimensional feats are not combat feats.

Summoners can get it done at 11th but pretty much anything else is min 13th.


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ryric wrote:


As to the encounter itself, it really depends on a lot of unknown factors. This is a pretty high level encounter - the NPC can't start taking the Dimensional feat chain until 9th level, so he's what? 13th? when he gets Dimensional Dervish?

Actually a Synthesist can start at 6th (well yes 7th).


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With only 3 PCs it seems a bit much.
However.. having been up against NPCs I (and most of the group) could only hit on a 20 and survived, there is a way.

Take the biggest hitting PC. Everyone Aid Anothers him. Even with the -1 a GS Paladin should be hitting for somewhere around 2d6+6 or dropping one with each hit. A d8 PC should have around 11 hp with the negative level. Taking 4 hits from the gobbos to drop him.

Assuming 4 PCs the Paladin should be attacking at around:
BAB 2 - 1 Neg Level + 4 Str + 2 Flank + 6 Aid another + 1 MW weapon = 14
Still tough but doable.

Figure the players have AC's in the 17-20 range the Goblins attacking at +4 are going to hit a good deal less than the Paladin.

It a teamwork encounter. Maybe not the thing to throw at them the first time out but a well coordinated group could take them.


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A group friendly build I put together.

Synth/Preacher


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Heighten spell + Focus + Greater Focus
18 Int + 2 Race + 5 level + 6 Headband + 5 book

DC = 10 + 13 Int + 9 Lvl of any spell heightened + 2 Focus = 34

I know there are ways to increase the DC/Int beyond that.


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Synthesist. :)


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Diego Rossi wrote:


The Magus get the benefits from Haste. When he is full attacking, like every other character.

People, your maguses (and mine too) has lost some power? Live with it. We were wrong.

So.. never. Got it.

I'm not even playing a magus. Nor am I saying that the ruling is wrong. Just that one of the staple spells to enhance melee damage is not doing so in this case.

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