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Are you sure Matt didn't remove it?
I did remove it. That line of discussion just seemed unnecessary after I posted. I don't need anyone's validation to know about my ability to GM. The smiles on my players' faces that emerge after six hours of expanding their knowledge of Golarion canon and interacting with NPCs is enough.
If screwing around with NPCs and doing my best to immerse my players means speed-moding the purchasing process, I'll pick immersion every time.
-Matt
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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At what point in this process do purchases get written on the Chronicle?
If I understand correctly, that's still necessary. And needs to happen before the Chronicle is signed.So the process would be more like: GM fills out his parts of the Chronicle, including gp and PP, gives it to the Player who copies new items from the ITS + any other charges + any < 25gp items onto the Chronicle and gives it back to the GM to check and sign.
Or am I missing something?
Step 7: Cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find
in the scenario and mark any special boons the players did or did not earn (U); additionally, if you’re running the lower subtier, always cross out all of the items listed for the higher subtier. Return the Chronicle sheet to the player.Step 8: Have the player note all items purchased or sold, including spellcasting services, in the notes section (V). If the character gained an ongoing condition like a curse or disease during the scenario, the player should note that here as well. See Dealing with Afflictions on page 36 for more information on noting conditions gained and cleared during a scenario or after its conclusion. Additionally, this is where the player must list any Prestige Awards his character gains by spending Prestige Points. Sometimes a player must have ou witness a roll to verify he successfully scribed a scroll into his spellbook or trained an animal companion to do a new trick. Write your initials next to any such entries in this sections to show that you witnessed the roll and that the PC was successful in the attempt. Any equipment purchased or sold should be tracked on the character’s current Inventory Tracking Sheet, denoting the Character Chronicle # (A) next to the item purchased, sold, or expended during the course of the scenario or after its conclusion.
Step 9: Have the player finish the calculations on the right- hand side of the Chronicle sheet (sections I, M–O and S–T).
Step 10: Review the completed Chronicle sheet and check the player’s math. Ensure that the character has access to any items bought and that the correct costs were paid. Verifying this information now helps prevent errors from going unnoticed on future Chronicle sheets. Once you’re satisfied with the information on the Chronicle sheet, fill in the gray box at the bottom of the sheet and sign (W). For “Event,” write in the name of the event you are playing at—if this is a home game or in-store game, just write “home game” or the name of the store. If it’s a convention, write the name of the show and the year. For “Event Code,” write in the event code associated with your event on paizo.com/pathfindersociety. This is only necessary if you registered your event.
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, all future purchases of 25 GP or more from games played or GMed should be entered onto an Inventory Tracking Sheet.
So things like alchem fire, smoked goggles, read magic scrolls, quivers of arrows, Medium tent and the like need not be listed
That actually makes starting characters much easier. With the exception of weapons, armor and some clothing most of the starting equipment will not need to go on inventory sheet.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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, all future purchases of 25 GP or more from games played or GMed should be entered onto an Inventory Tracking Sheet.So things like alchem fire, smoked goggles, read magic scrolls, quivers of arrows, Medium tent and the like need not be listed
That actually makes starting characters much easier. With the exception of weapons, armor and some clothing most of the starting equipment will not need to go on inventory sheet.
If it is 0-24 GPs, is does not need to be listed.
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I don't need anyone's validation to know about my ability to GM.Nor do I...which is why Kyle is out of line.
I wasn't aware that you're in charge of deciding that. If you can't or are unwilling to do all that is required of you as a PFS GM, don't GM in PFS. How is that so hard to wrap your head around?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Are you sure Matt didn't remove it?I did remove it. That line of discussion just seemed unnecessary after I posted. I don't need anyone's validation to know about my ability to GM. The smiles on my players' faces that emerge after six hours of expanding their knowledge of Golarion canon and interacting with NPCs is enough.
If screwing around with NPCs and doing my best to immerse my players means speed-moding the purchasing process, I'll pick immersion every time.
-Matt
I agree with you here, and with removing the post. I'll *try* to follow the rules going forward, if for no other reason than to see how much it fraks things up.
Players had fun? Good job.
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If you can't or are unwilling to do all that is required of you as a PFS GM, don't GM in PFS. How is that so hard to wrap your head around?
Veiled insults? Really? And you probably think you're being perfectly reasonable.
In any case, it isn't hard. But that isn't what you said. What you actually said was:
If your GM is too late, lazy, busy or harried to look over your inventory sheet for anything that looks obviously wrong, then it's a problem with your GM, not the system...if the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.
To which several GMs, myself included responded that we always felt busy, harried, and short on time, usually through no fault of our own. I understand that's a pretty common feeling for those of us with limited intellects who are doing their best to entertain five or six others at once.
But thanks for taking it on yourself to uninvite us from the campaign, Kyle!
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If you can't or are unwilling to do all that is required of you as a PFS GM, don't GM in PFS. How is that so hard to wrap your head around?Veiled insults? Really? And you probably think you're being perfectly reasonable.
In any case, it isn't hard. But that isn't what you said. What you actually said was:If your GM is too late, lazy, busy or harried to look over your inventory sheet for anything that looks obviously wrong, then it's a problem with your GM, not the system...if the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.To which several GMs, myself included responded that we always fell harried and short on time, usually through no fault of our own. But thanks for uninviting us from the campaign, Kyle!
Nothing veiled at all. PFS requires GMs to do certain things. If you don't think you're capable of doing them, don't GM for PFS. If you feel that you are harried through no fault of your own, you should probably ask yourself how other GMs in PFS don't feel that way. I know GMs who fall on both ends of the spectrum and I take the initiative to try to learn from them and improve my abilities as a PFS GM. That includes player immersion and storytelling as much as it includes performing audits or helping new characters build their first character. A PFS GM's job includes more than just running the scenario. If you don't like that, then PFS probably isn't for you.
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Nothing veiled at all. PFS requires GMs to do certain things. If you don't think you're capable of doing them, don't GM for PFS. If you feel that you are harried through no fault of your own, you should probably ask yourself how other GMs in PFS don't feel that way. I know GMs who fall on both ends of the spectrum and I take the initiative to try to learn from them and improve my abilities as a PFS GM. That includes player immersion and storytelling as much as it includes performing audits or helping new characters build their first character. A PFS GM's job includes more than just running the scenario. If you don't like that, then PFS probably isn't for you.
"How hard is it to wrap your head around?" is an fairly obvious dig on intelligence. I frankly can't believe you don't realize that.
You have succeeded at one thing, though: Getting me to un-invite myself from any table with you sitting at it. Have a nice day.
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"How hard is it to wrap your head around?" is an obvious dig on intelligence. I frankly can't believe you don't realize that.
If it's obvious, it's not veiled...
You have succeeded at one thing, though -- getting me to un-invite myself from any table with you sitting at it. Have a nice day.
For the record, I've played at and GM'd for many people who I've had various disagreements with on the internet. Can't say that I've ever come across any of them who weren't reasonable people in person and most were actually fun to hang out with for 5 hours.
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"How hard is it to wrap your head around?" is an obvious dig on intelligence. I frankly can't believe you don't realize that.If it's obvious, it's not veiled...
You have succeeded at one thing, though -- getting me to un-invite myself from any table with you sitting at it. Have a nice day.For the record, I've played at and GM'd for many people who I've had various disagreements with on the internet. Can't say that I've ever come across any of them who weren't reasonable people in person and most were actually fun to hang out with for 5 hours.
or 8 then 20 straight the next day with ridiculously little sleep followed by another 7 the next day with ridiculously little sleep?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'll note that:
1) I haven't been spending time a GM with player purchases on Chronicle sheets. That's not "the custom" in any of my experience, and I feel certain that asking players to go back and fix all their Chronicle sheets would be burdensome and resented. (You can call this anecdotal if you like, but it's over 280 tables, from one coast to the other.)
2) It's fair to say that asking GMs to enforce this rule is going to ask them to do something they never did before. I would counsel people to cut one another slack on the learning curve here. We all want to do what's right, and we all want players to have the maximum fun.
3) It's pretty easy to predict that the Thursday sessions at Gen Con are going to start with a kerfluffle. A lot of players will be taken aback, and it'll be up to the table GMs to help walk people through not only the new rules, but any new expectations for existing rules.
In particular, Session 3, Bonekeep, is time-sensitive. Adding 20 minutes to the front end of it runs the danger of making players anxious.
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I do that when I GM.
Give me your level 5 credit baby. I will take approximately 30 seconds to look it over and easily identify if anything is out of whack. If the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.I'm just curious Kyle, is this something you do every session? You look over the list the players want to buy and then sign their chronicle sheet?
If you do so, you are the exception to the rule, not the norm. At least in the games I have played, and I've probably played in almost 20 scenarios.
I strongly suspect you are the exception.
Yes, it's easy to write off all the feedback as "only 3% of people read the forums" and "all you're reporting is anecodtal data".
However, when multiple people are reporting the same anecdotes, it's worth paying attention.
I've met only one GM, ever, who waited until after sheets were fully filled out with purchases and the accounting on the right before signing them, and that was me. I eventually stopped doing it, because I realized that I was a chump for following the rules and going through a lot of effort that no other GM did, and that I was a jerk to my players for making them go through it when no other GM did. This has been my experience with PbP games, VTT games, and FtF games at PaizoCon. GMs fill out the grey sections and the top section (name, character name, PFS #), sign it, and hand out the sheets. I've seen this in multiple contexts, including with multiple-star GMs at PaizoCon.
I've seen lots of choronicle sheets where all the accounting at the right simply isn't done at all by the players.
People are not following the rules. I strongly suspect that this is the rule far more than the exception-- that the GMs who 'do it right' and review everything as described in the guide are the rare ones. Everything I've seen on the forums, on other fora, and in play indicates that this is the case. No, I don't have statistics, so if you want, you can put your head in the sand and assert that it's still possible, given what we know, that the people who aren't doing it right are the rare exception. But do you really believe that? I admit the evidence is inadequate, but all the evidence points the other way.
And I think this is a problem. If the rules aren't being followed, something should be done. Either the rules should be re-evaluated, because they're too cumbersome for practice, or something needs to be done to make people follow the rules.
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I'd prefer bourbon at this point.Yet despite this, Mike has said they've heard your feedback and are reviewing various language within the guide to accommodate said feedback. RAGE!Here Kyle, have some bacon.
:)
Good thing I am bring both in one bottle.
You like maple, too, right?
I really prefer bourbon flavored bacon (yum).
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About once every three months, I'll have a player sit at my table and ask for the Chronicle sheet so that she can record between-session purchases. I usually explain that I don't hand out the Chronicle for reading before the scenario.
One possible solution is to hand out the chronicle sheets in a folder that has sections of it cut away so players can write on it where they should and don't see what they shouldn't.
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Kyle
I have lots of blood (mostly from the fools, I mean players, who perish on my tables)
Eric - I am not a VL so not allowed to use VL green. I shall carry out some investigations into different inks z]and report back at a mutually convenient time.
Terry, You should base your colour of ink upon your mood - red for angry, blue for happy, green for calm, black for stressed and dissappearing ink when you are feeling playful:P
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I feel that this is beating the proverbial dead horse, but I feel the need to throw in my two copper.
Having the GM sign off on everything is great in theory, but will fall short in practice.
I've attended one Major con ever, two years (Dragon*Con), and both years there have been problem GMs. Yes, most of the GMs were fine, but my first year there was the GM that showed thirty minutes late and obviously never read the scenario before, and year 2 there was the one that never showed. Now, these DMs failed to follow even the most basic rules (show up, have a clue what you are doing), what makes us think that the seemingly extraneous "signing off all purchases" rule will be so easy to enforce?
Yes, the first thought to mind is "Well, kick out the crappy DMs!" but there is a problem there. The fact of the matter is that we have enough of a problem getting DMs to run in the first place. The reason the crappy DMs even get to run at these sizable cons is that we NEED them to. So if we are thanking the divines that they show up and have read the scenerio, are we REALLY going to push for them to sign every little document?
Ok, in this thread there have been some high tensions, and the "Lazy DM" slur may or may not have been thrown out there. We can assume that anyone taking the time to post isn't toooo lazy. However, we also have to realize that there ARE lazy DMs and that, like it or not, we still need them.
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.....Redundancies are annoying in a system with an already bewildering amount of paperwork for the new guy.
I have to agree with this. I spend enough time getting frustrated at work by the amount of redundant or duplicated paperwork I have to deal with. Having to do the same on my own time (as both player and GM) when I should be enjoying myself is a bit daft really.
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Yes, the first thought to mind is "Well, kick out the crappy DMs!" but there is a problem there. The fact of the matter is that we have enough of a problem getting DMs to run in the first place. The reason the crappy DMs even get to run at these sizable cons is that we NEED them to. So if we are thanking the divines that they show up and have read the scenerio, are we REALLY going to push for them to sign every little document?
The problem is more fundamental in that those crappy GMs go on to be good GMs, if and only if they are allowed and encouraged to continue being PFS GMs.
Which brings up another thought - there will be a lot of ITSs floating around that will not have been checked/initialled/signed/whatever by a GM, possibly because that GM didn't know they had to, or possibly because the fire-alarm went off at an inconvenient moment. Hopefully that won't cause issues when that sheet gets looked at by a LN GM.
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So, to clarify.
The way many people have been handling this is as follows:
GM signs chronicle, hands it out, players go home, make purchases, fill in, calculate gold, move on with life.
The way it was supposed to have been working is as follows:
GM hands out chronicle, players make purchases, GM checks math quickly & signs, everyone goes home, moves on with life.
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From Guide 5.0 going forward, it can work one of two ways:
GM hands out chronicle, players make purchases, GM checks math quickly & signs, everyone goes home, fills out ITS to match Chronicle purchases, goes on with life. This corresponds to the way it was supposed to be working, which is efficient if you already know what you want to buy.
Alternately:
Before play, players note to GM what they have purchased since last game--items are already listed on ITS. After game, GM hands out chronicle, players note purchases made after last game which are already on ITS, GM checks math quickly & signs, everyone goes home, decides on next purchases, notes them on ITS, moves on with life. This corresponds to the way it has been working for many, except now it's officially okay, and an efficient adaptation to make everyone happy. Despite the longer list of steps, it is essentially the same process.
Yes?
Which brings up another thought - there will be a lot of ITSs floating around that will not have been checked/initialled/signed/whatever by a GM, possibly because that GM didn't know they had to, or possibly because the fire-alarm went off at an inconvenient moment. Hopefully that won't cause issues when that sheet gets looked at by a LN GM.
The ITSs don't need to be signed by the GM anymore. As they link back to a chronicle sheet, which a GM signs, Mike has said that the update version of the guide will not require the GM to initial the ITSs.
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Wow talk about a mountain out of a molehill! Yes it is true that very few GMs were doing this in the past, but with the changes that have already been implemented it will not take much effort or time to do it right in the future.
One time saving solution: ask first if any players are doing purchases and hand them their chronicles first so they can start filling it out. By the time you are done filling out everyone else's chronicles they should be done. If not, ask them to figure out what they are buying and add it the next game session.
I suspect this will take virtually no time at all. And I hate paperwork!
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So, at the end of a long session, when everyone's dead-tired and packing up, we're supposed to sit back down and do all of our shopping under the GM's watchful eye, while the owner impatiently checks his watch for the twentieth time, waiting to lock up?
Yeah... not gonna happen, sorry. Equipment purchases (and all the accompanying inventory review, item research, decision-making, bookkeeping, etc.) happen between sessions, not during. I expect this to be the 'blue law' of Pathinder--the one that never gets enforced because it's obviously unreasonable and unworkable.
You can shop between sessions.
1) Play PFS.
2) Go Home.
3) Shop.
4) Fill out your ITS.
5) Show up to a game day.
6) Show your GM your new ITS.
7) GM peruses and signs off.
8) GM notes purchase on the Chronicle of the day.
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I will not claim to be the best GM in PFS or anything remotely close, but I do try hard to be. My goal it to run a game that is fun for all.
Sometimes I fail.
Sometimes my games run long. People run late or in a hurry to get back home to their families. I have forgotten to sign or initial sheets. I have written down incorrect gold. I have made bad rulings. Incorrectly stated rules. Used wrong stat blocks. Not prepped games as well as I should.
The list goes on and on.
My point is that I make mistakes. With each of these mistakes I try to learn and get better with what I do. Gming is a skill that requires constant improvement.
This is why Kyle is right in calling out some of the people here. A rule has been implemented. If you are unwilling to even try to comply with the new rule, then you are being unreasonable. No one is saying that mistakes will not be made or that the ITS will cure all ills. They are saying that the advantages far outweigh the cost in time it will take to use them.
It does mean that you may have to adjust your GM style to allow for the extra time. I suspect that the impact will be minimal, but time will tell.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You can shop between sessions.
1) Play PFS.
2) Go Home.
3) Shop.
4) Fill out your ITS.
5) Show up to a game day.
6) Show your GM your new ITS.
7) GM peruses and signs off.
8) GM notes purchase on the Chronicle of the day.
Andy, I'm disappointed! You forgot the obligatory "PROFIT!" step at the end!
;)
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I guess I'm just not sure what evil we're trying to combat here by having GMs initial beside purchases. Can somebody help me out here?
Agree. I don't see any reason for purchases to work any different than they have in the past. I don't forsee many people enforcing this rule that GMs must sign off on your purchases because that has been the rule already and I have not seen 1 person enforce it. When I played my first session I expected it because it is in the guide, but was told that nobody actually does it.
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The whole point of the ITS was to respond to the feedback received regarding the 'cramped' area for purchases on a chronicle, to help facilitate GM audits should they occur, and to open the chronicle up to have more room for cool boons, unique items and a GM/Players notes section to add even more flavor to the game.
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If I as GM sign off a inventory tracking sheet do I also need to sign off the chronicles it references?
If I as GM sign off on items on a chronicle sheet do I also need to sign off on the tracking sheet?
GMs don't sign the ITS; that was the original thought but it has been gone for days.
Edit: Well, a day, maybe. I dunno, this conversation is moving pretty fast.