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Yet despite this, Mike has said they've heard your feedback and are reviewing various language within the guide to accommodate said feedback. RAGE!Here Kyle, have some bacon.
:)
I'd prefer bourbon at this point. Anyone saying "following the rules will take too much time" needs to actually see how long it takes in practice before complaining about it. Do I want to spend a significant portion of a slot doing inventory control? Nope, but I consider myself a reasonable person and am willing to see how it works before providing constructive feedback. Then I can say, "hey Mike, this is eating about 15 minutes a slot, I think that's too much."
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For the record, Kyle is one of the people who are constantly pushing me for change and improvement with the "system" through emails, PMs, Facebook correspondence, text messages, phone calls, carrier pigeons, and message spells. Just saying....
Don't forget the constant greater scrying spells while you're in the bathroom. Too much?
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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For the record, Kyle is one of the people who are constantly pushing me for change and improvement with the "system" through emails, PMs, Facebook correspondence, text messages, phone calls, carrier pigeons, and message spells. Just saying....Don't forget the constant greater scrying spells while you're in the bathroom. Too much?
Redmond Police are waiting to serve you a restraining order the next time you come to PaizoCon.
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I'd prefer bourbon at this point.Bacon... bourbon... no need to choose.
Oh I know. I've been watching that thread very closely. I plan on hijacking the shipment when it hits the Wisconsin border!
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oh cool it is fun times now
this making my stomach hurt less about worrying that I am a lazy GM and not properly educating my players
No one has called anyone a lazy GM. My statement earlier was to the effect that the system can't fix lazy GMs and shouldn't cater to lazy GMs. That's also not saying that the system can't be improved and made more efficient.
FWIW, I'm a freaking process engineer and review everything in my life for efficiency to the point it causes problems.
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He just sends me messages about how he's going to kill PCs with my Special.
Now that's the truth. That thing looks brutal at 14-15. And whomever is lucky enough to sit at my table, it's not my fault, I swear it's Thursty's fault. Just like it's Greg Vaughn's fault for Heresy of Man, Jason Bulmahn's fault for Rebel's Ransom and Mark Moreland's fault for The Sundered Path (he made me put those [redacted] in there, I swear!).
It’s always your fault when players die, Kyle. Even when they aren’t at your table.
Just accept it.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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They probably don't have time for that.The King County Sheriff's Office crosses borders. I already checked.Redmond Police are waiting to serve you a restraining order the next time you come to PaizoCon.Awesome! PaizoCon isn't in Redmond...
They do. I gave them bacon and bourbon and notated it on my ITS.
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Obviously just more anecdotal evidence but I have approximately 145 sessions played and 65 GMed, most of them have been in either the Bay Area (Where there are about 12 different venues), or within a 3 hour drive of Des Moines Iowa.
1: An old season 0 where a high stat was needed to bypass a door, the GM asked to see my character sheet.
2: I had alchemical bloodblock but for some reason had written it on my chronicle sheet and character sheet incorrectly. I was asked for the source and was unable to provide it and didn't use the item that adventure.
3: I used a reroll from a special, the GM wanted to cross it off themselves and so asked for the sheet.
4: I played an online game and the GM requested a scan of the character's most recent chronicle.
5: I was playing in a pbp and my stats didn't make sense so I was asked to provide appropriate documentation.
I suspect this is much more akin to the "normal" PFS experience than what Kyle Baird encounters.
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One of the things I do to help my time management is I prefill out chronicle sheets. I initial all the bits and sign and date the bottom etc. That way I can have more time for awesome adventure and the players have to sit around less at the end and wait while I try and remember to sign and initial all the right places.
As a GM I tend to ask for stuff a bit more often but still fairly rarely. I like to make sure boons get properly crossed off and generally initial them with a quick note about the adventure used.
I have initialed about a dozen equipment purchases when the players asked me to but otherwise have not.
One of the things I've had happen is a player will hand me an index card with a list of the items they purchased between sessions and ask me to okay them. I have taken a quick peak at these cards but never more than a cursory glance. Although I've never seen anything unusual enough on one that required more than a cursory glance.
If there's time I try and talk to 1 player about their sheet at a low level tables, especially if they are new and make sure they have some basic things right like a reasonable looking number of HP, stats that seem in the right ballpark and ask them what their traits are. I generally don't take their sheet or look at it myself, but instead ask some some questions, both about fluff and crunch.
I don't do this at all at higher level tables although I do make players introduce both themselves and their characters. (I find this is key in helping to determine player expectations and what level of challenge to provide)
I don't ask for sourcing for material very often because I spend way too much time looking at the rules and tend to know what's going on.
I did ask for a source at the Bonekeep table I ran, a player was rage cycling with something that didn't seem quite right to me, they happily pulled out the source and didn't object when I told them it didn't work. (There is another issue regarding players using unclear rules to their advantage instead of clarifying them with the GM, but that is for another day.)
Generally though, even if I look over stuff quickly nothing will seem off until the middle of combat when the players are in a tough spot and somebody does something weird. In the past trying to ask about it at this point has not gotten me anywhere. The most common answer I've received is "Hero Lab says so" which drives me absolutely nuts but I look over and see 5 other players who are engaged with the story/combat and at the edge of their seat waiting for their turn and trying to figure out how to not die.
Should I stop now, tell everybody else to take a 10 minute break while I make this player sort out their character? Because that's at least how long it will take and there's no guarantee they'll even be able to figure it out by then. If I don't let them take their turn in the way they want PCs will likely die. It's reasonably likely that what they are doing is fine, they just don't know how/why.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's a huge problem to start (or continue) a debate with. Less than 3% of the more than 50,000 PFS players post on these forums.using the information on the forums as data.
Actually that was the reason I posted it. You have a much larger dataset than I do, so I was qualifying that I was inferring from the dataset I have.
I would point out the VO's I've gamed with don't enforce it either, and about the only time I've made a point of getting the initial is when I get spells for Ksenia from dead wizards/witches/scrolls.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is moronic. Let's pick a specific phrase and use it to apply to the whole system! Yay, now I can win the internet!After all, clearly Kyle believes the system can't be wrong. :-(And when the hell did I say that?Right here.
You were abundantly clear that the system isn't the issue, it's the GM. Heck it's most GM's apparently, using the information on the forums as data.
Heck, any GM who doesn't/wouldn't take the time to double check every player's purchase before and after the game must be ' late, lazy, busy or harried '
Because the system can't be the problem, now, can it? You don't even allow for the possibility the system can be the problem.
I would never say you are moronic Kyle.
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In the world of internal controls, the number one deterrant to fraud (or cheating/mistakes) is the perception of detection. Talk of not being able to catch something in a 30-second scan of a sheet isn't the entire point, in my opinion. The mere act of doing audits and spot checks will begin to instill in the PFS community the sense that things are being taken much more seriously. In turn, this should cause many players to be a bit more circumspect about their record keeping, reducing errors. And, hopefully, this will discourage those who are tempted to cheat from actually doing so. In turn, this will allow the spot checks/audits to occur much quicker, as everything is now in order.
So, I think that instead of hammering the rule and bashing it right out of the gate; why don't we all try to implement what's been asked. Give it a go, see if you can make it work. A few spot checks here and there (and there's a great thread with tricks on how to perform a great check in under a minute). If, after trying to implement it things continue to fail, then the questions should be raised once more on how to make the entire process better. However, this doesn't mean try it once or twice. From the sound of things, this will require a major culture-change in the way many folks play; and given our natural urges to resist change, it won't happen overnight. I know I can get better! So try it for Season 5. See how it goes. And then report back on your findings. Isn't that the way the Decemvirate would want it?
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You write the items on the ITS, which notes which chronicle the items were purchased on. The GM checks that chronicle. If you're buying stuff at the end of the scenario, you write the items on the ITS, note the current chronicle number and then hand it to your GM. They look it over and sign your chronicle.
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I don't have time to sign off on purchases as a GM. I already consistently push the group until closing time due to my efforts to make the scenarios interesting. Does this mean I should quit GMing PFS and stick to homegames, Kyle?
-Matt
Yes, because you're clearly "lazy." As am I, because I often feel harried as a GM. I'm sure eliminating us from the GMing pool is best for PFS. Probably best to eliminate us from the planet as well, just to be sure. Best to check with Kyle, though.
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Here's how it's supposed to work IMO and understanding of everything:
Scenario finishes, the Pathfinders saved the day! Woo!
GM: Anyone have purchased they'd like to make before we conclude the slot?
Player A: I do. At this point there are things they know they want to buy (hence the "I do" part of this).
They write those things on their ITS and write the current/next chronicle number next to them (essentially your last chronicle # + 1)
Before the GM hands them a chronicle for saving the day, the player gives their ITS to the GM. The GM looks it over briefly, notes the total gold spent and could even write that on the chronicle for the player. They return the ITS and a signed Chronicle to the player.
Before scenario starts or after VC briefing:
GM: Anyone want to make any purchases before they head out? Some wolfsbane perhaps?
Player A: I do!
GM: Okay, whatcha buying?
Player A: Uh... wolfsbane?
GM: Cool, write that on your ITS please.
Scenario concludes, GM reviews ITS for any purchases made at beginning of or during scenario, perhaps write the total GP spent on the chronicle and returns ITS and signed chronicle to player.
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I have begun my sessions handing out the chronicle sheets and having everyone fill out the pertinent information (also so that way I can track who's which faction without constantly having to ask or write it down myself). Then I tell them to write down whatever purchases they want to make, give them their mission, and if it's a situation that allows for it, let them buy what they need for the mission. Then I take the sheets back.
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I do that when I GM.
Give me your level 5 credit baby. I will take approximately 30 seconds to look it over and easily identify if anything is out of whack. If the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.I'm just curious Kyle, is this something you do every session? You look over the list the players want to buy and then sign their chronicle sheet?
If you do so, you are the exception to the rule, not the norm. At least in the games I have played, and I've probably played in almost 20 scenarios.
I haven't, but am going to start.
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I don't have time to sign off on purchases as a GM. I already consistently push the group until closing time due to my efforts to make the scenarios interesting. Does this mean I should quit GMing PFS and stick to homegames, Kyle? -Matt
Being able to run a scenario and perform all of your responsibilities outlined in the guide to organized play is a requirement of GMs in Pathfinder Society. If you are unable to meet those requirements even with practice and preparation, then yes, you shouldn't GM in PFS.
That is NOT saying that GM is solely at fault. It is NOT saying that the system couldn't be improved. It is NOT saying that scenarios couldn't be made shorter.
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I don't have time to sign off on purchases as a GM. I already consistently push the group until closing time due to my efforts to make the scenarios interesting. Does this mean I should quit GMing PFS and stick to homegames, Kyle? -MattBeing able to run a scenario and perform all of your responsibilities outlined in the guide to organized play is a requirement of GMs in Pathfinder Society. If you are unable to meet those requirements even with practice and preparation, then yes, you shouldn't GM in PFS.
That is NOT saying that GM is solely at fault. It is NOT saying that the system couldn't be improved. It is NOT saying that scenarios couldn't be made shorter.
Don't worry Kyle, that post has been removed for violating....well, I"m not sure why.
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Thanks for all of the clarifications on how this system will work Kyle.
I still think that requiring a form for ITS rather than requiring the chronicle you purchased the item on generating a lot of paper for no good reason. Also I'm not looking forward to going through all my chronicles and assigning each item to its respective chronicle for all my characters. This also gets into an interesting question, what about consumables?
I purchased two scrolls of haste here, two more here. I note that as 4 scrolls of haste (2 this season, 2 this season)? I used one in this session, so its now 3, but what else do I write down? The session in which I used one?
This gets substantially more confusing for things like ammunition, which I only yesterday started writing down how much was used in a session (previously I'd just been buying ammo to replace, and keeping track on the character sheet).
Yes, Starting on Aug. 15, 2013, the use of the Inventory Tracking Sheet is mandatory for all Pathfinder Society Organized Play characters. It will allow a much faster optional character audit by GMs before a game session. It is optional if any purchases made before Aug. 15, 2013, are entered onto an Inventory Tracking Form. However, all future purchases of 25 GP or more from games played or GMed should be entered onto an Inventory Tracking Sheet.
If you have been using a different inventory tracking sheet before the release of Guide 5.0, you may have the GM at your next game sign off on it. Once that inventory sheet is filled, you should switch to the Inventory Tracking Sheet located in the back of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
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Thanks for all of the clarifications on how this system will work Kyle.
I still think that requiring a form for ITS rather than requiring the chronicle you purchased the item on generating a lot of paper for no good reason. Also I'm not looking forward to going through all my chronicles and assigning each item to its respective chronicle for all my characters. This also gets into an interesting question, what about consumables?
I purchased two scrolls of haste here, two more here. I note that as 4 scrolls of haste (2 this season, 2 this season)? I used one in this session, so its now 3, but what else do I write down? The session in which I used one?
This gets substantially more confusing for things like ammunition, which I only yesterday started writing down how much was used in a session (previously I'd just been buying ammo to replace, and keeping track on the character sheet).
The reason for a separate inventory sheet was to address the concern that many here on these very boards had in regards to spacing. Moving it to a separate sheet allows for extra detailed boons, unique magic items and a notes section for GMs and Players to record cool stuff.
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Don't worry Kyle, that post has been removed for violating....well, I"m not sure why.I don't have time to sign off on purchases as a GM. I already consistently push the group until closing time due to my efforts to make the scenarios interesting. Does this mean I should quit GMing PFS and stick to homegames, Kyle? -MattBeing able to run a scenario and perform all of your responsibilities outlined in the guide to organized play is a requirement of GMs in Pathfinder Society. If you are unable to meet those requirements even with practice and preparation, then yes, you shouldn't GM in PFS.
That is NOT saying that GM is solely at fault. It is NOT saying that the system couldn't be improved. It is NOT saying that scenarios couldn't be made shorter.
Are you sure Matt didn't remove it?
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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WHAT THE HELL is going on? All posts questioning Kyle are now being deleted with nary a mention?
You guys are losing it.
There are no posts removed here from what I can see. I believe Mattastrophic may have removed his original post himself. Take a deep breath.
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Your reply is still there..
Although I do like the idea of all posts disagreeing with me being deleted. PMG, can we make this happen?
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Your reply is still there..
I would *swear* it wasn't a minute ago, but apparently I was mistaken. I apologize for my reaction.
That said -- I've been here since day one of season zero, but I don't feel the need to pontificate on who should un-invite themselves from the campaign. For someone ostensibly concerned about tone...well, perhaps you should check your eye for planks, Mr. Baird.
Edit: And keep in mind, this is someone who SUPPORTS the idea of the tracking sheet. I just think "maybe you shouldn't GM for PFS" is an unbelievably arrogant thing to say.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My thinking is that everyone has time to sign off on purchases if the player is organized. If they come with it all filled out and ready to sign, then it takes 10 seconds to review and initial it. At a table of 6 that's no more than 5 minutes of your time.
*counts on fingers, then scratches head*
Interesting math there; kinda reminds me of how I've seen some GMs handle T20. ;)
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Jokes aside, +1 to Todd's comment above. If handling all this takes more than a few seconds per person at the table, the player could probably stand to keep better track of things.