No, you bought the gear for each that you thought would prove your point. You did the builds you did as they would prove your point. You threw away the one big advantage a CB guys gets over a LB guy... which strangely proved your point.What advantage did I threw away? The crossbow man has more HP, more skills and better Will save... And he is the only Ranger who can cast Instant Enemy. And I mentioned all of these advantages in the crossbow build thread.
Whether or not CON & WIS are RP stats or not is besides the point. The whole build comparo was not showing which is the better ranger over-all, which has the best skills, best HP, etc, you made the builds to COMPARE DPR and only DPR. Thus putting extra points in other stats makes the build bogus. It loses the CB guy his one advantage.You see... None of my characters (and by that I mean, no character I ever built, not just the ones in that thread) are there to win the DPR Olympics. They're there to do their jobs and survive a real campaign. Making a completely one dimensional characters doesn't prove anything, IMHO.
Besides, it's not like I made Archie ultra DPR-focused and then made Ross suck at it. I gave both of them the same degree of focus on both DPR and survivability. Both of them carry defensive items, both of them carry backup weapons and both of them invested a bit in Con and Wis.The question is not "Can crossbows compete in the DPR Olympics?", it's "Can crossbows compete in a real campaign?".
Yeah, yeah yeah. But in your postings here of how cruddy a CB was (It's always nice to see how crossbow Rangers (with a +3 crossbow and spending lots of gold on alchemical bolts) deal less damage than:”), you never mentioned HP, more skills and better Will , you mentioned one thing and one thing only= DPR. And, you deliberately build the CB guy to be nerfed in that department.
Nor I am asking for completely one dimensional characters . Note I have decent stats outside those that contribute towards DPR, and even one “non archery feat” thrown in. But we’re not comparing other things. Here’s what we’re refuting and comparing: ”It's always nice to see how crossbow Rangers (with a +3 crossbow and spending lots of gold on alchemical bolts) deal less damage than:
1- A Str-drained Ranger with a longbow.
2- A switch-hitter Ranger who only uses bows as a back-up weapons.
3- A Bard with a shortbow.” And “A Crossbow Ranger still deals less damage than a archer Ranger who had his Str score reduced by -4, a switch-hitter Ranger who only uses longbows as secondary weapon, and even a freaking Bard with a bow! “ and “I devote all my resources and I'm still can't be nearly as good as half-decent archer." Etc.
You asked me why your builds were “dubious” and I replied- you built them to prove how cruddy a CB user is. That’s been your point. Can a CB user still have good Perception? Or AC or HP?Sure, we’re not debating that.
So I gave you three honest builds. In these builds, they should all do fine with non-DPR issues. So, how about the DPR?
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Again though, you stop them at level 5 rangers. One level before Manyshot comes into play, because your deliberately trying to make it look like CB and Archery are very very equal. I find that rather dubious.
You also tend to claim that his builds are not honest. Because they are slightly dedicated archery and fully dedicated xbow builds, and don't worry about the useless skills (see how to make martials better) or con, or will saves or a few other things like that.
Dex 14... Cha 19... Str 12... Are you honestly telling me that what you expect from an archer? How does this guy even hit anything??? What is the point of using a freaking bow if you focus only on your save DCs? ALL HIS SPELLS ARE BUFFS AND UTILITY!! SAVE DC MEANS NOTHING TO HIM!
Yes, of course. No Bard would ever want extra spells, or better social skills or a higher perform (which makes many bardic abilities better). A Bard would never cast Sleep or Hypnotism or Grease or Lesser Confusion, or Calm Emotions or Daze Monster or Hold Person or Scare or Sound Burst or Suggestion or Touch of Gracelessness or just about the best bard spell out there at this low level= Cacophonous Call. Naw, that'd be silly.
Bards are spellcasters with a set of special abilities called Bardic Performance. Building a bard to be only a dedicated archer is silly.
And yes, My Bard has those stats and my Paladin has a STR of 14 and a CHA of 18.
You’re still dodging the main point. You designed the CB user to be sub-optimized on purpose to prove a point. I offered you a set of alternate builds. But you seem scared to compare DPR now, why is that?
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Dex 14... Cha 19... Str 12... Are you honestly telling me that what you expect from an archer? How does this guy even hit anything??? What is the point of using a freaking bow if you focus only on your save DCs? ALL HIS SPELLS ARE BUFFS AND UTILITY!! SAVE DC MEANS NOTHING TO HIM!
Yes, of course. No Bard would ever want extra spells, or better social skills or a higher perform (which makes many bardic abilities better). A Bard would never cast Sleep or Hypnotism or Grease or Lesser Confusion, or Calm Emotions or Daze Monster or Hold Person or Scare or Sound Burst or Suggestion or Touch of Gracelessness or just about the best bard spell out there at this low level= Cacophonous Call. Naw, that'd be silly.
Bards are spellcasters with a set of special abilities called Bardic Performance. Building a bard to be only a dedicated archer is silly.
And yes, My Bard has those stats and my Paladin has a STR of 14 and a CHA of 18.
You’re still dodging the main point. You designed the CB user to be sub-optimized on purpose to prove a point. I offered you a set of alternate builds. But you seem scared to compare DPR now, why is that?
Not really if he is taking even the slightest focus in archery. Lemmy has said multiple times, over and over and over again, that the bard is a buffer type. It has a bit more focus towards.. well.. ARCHERY.
Cause quite frankly, If /I/ was making a bard who worried the slightest about those spells, and his performance and the like, do you really honestly think I'm going to put any sort of dedication into archery?
HECK NO!
Screw the archery feats with my spell caster bard. Screw arcane strike even. I'd be taking spell focus, and metamagics and all that.
But Lemmy's bard is an archer. He's gonna use things like Oh, I dunno.. Heroism? One round of performance or one spell isn't gonna make my Archery bard suddenly more amazing. No. things that enhance my archery just a bit more, that is what my archer bard wants.
Again though, you stop them at level 5 rangers. One level before Manyshot comes into play, because your deliberately trying to make it look like CB and Archery are very very equal. I find that rather dubious.
You also tend to claim that his builds are not honest. Because they are slightly dedicated archery and fully dedicated xbow builds, and don't worry about the useless skills (see how to make martials better) or con, or will saves or a few other things like that.
Most games are played at that level. He picked level 10. I picked level 5. Level 5 is more common. Sure, many things change at different levels. I had also picked lvl 1, too.
But no, you have it backwards. They are *fully* dedicated archery and *slightly* dedicated CB builds.
Skills and saves and HP are all critical. But those things should be the same, and I even dedicated some stat points and a feat to those. What is different and what Lemmy kept harping on over & over & over is the DPR.
If the skills are the same, and the Hp is the same and the AC is about the same (The CB guy might have a little edge) then the difference is the DPR. We're not comparing a fighter to a ranger and which is better at what. We're comaping two all but one thing identical ranger bulds (and a toss in bard, as he did) where the difference is choice of weapon, and the associate stats to go with that.
There's no point in my stating out the skills or HP- as they are almost identical.
Here's what we're refuting:
"It's always nice to see how crossbow Rangers (with a +3 crossbow and spending lots of gold on alchemical bolts) deal less damage than:
1- A Str-drained Ranger with a longbow.
2- A switch-hitter Ranger who only uses bows as a back-up weapons.
3- A Bard with a shortbow.”
And
“A Crossbow Ranger still deals less damage than a archer Ranger who had his Str score reduced by -4, a switch-hitter Ranger who only uses longbows as secondary weapon, and even a freaking Bard with a bow! “
and
“I devote all my resources and I'm still can't be nearly as good as half-decent archer." Etc.
Yeah, yeah yeah. But in your postings here of how cruddy a CB was (It's always nice to see how crossbow Rangers (with a +3 crossbow and spending lots of gold on alchemical bolts) deal less damage than:”), you never mentioned HP, more skills and better Will , you mentioned one thing and one thing only= DPR.
Because, believe it or not, the only thing that weapons affect is damage. That doesn't mean those builds should be one-dimensional. Their attributes are different because there's no reason for them to be the same! Ross has no use for Str, but Con ans Wisdom are still useful, so is Int. Archie and the others focus on Dex and Str first because that's what every archer build ever would do!
And, you deliberately build the CB guy to be nerfed in that department.
If by "nerfed him in that department" you mean "bought a better weapon than all archer builds and gave him special ammo", I suppose you're right.
My archers have cheaper weapons and cheaper ammo, if anything, Ross focus more on DPR than any other build of mine. What exactly would you have me do with the crossbow man? Buy a +4 weapon? A belt of Dex +4 instead of Dex/Con +2? Those are pretty expensive for a 10th level character... How long would he need to wait before he finally got to boost his Con if his belt raised his Dex by +4? Or should I use custom made items such as a Belt of Dex +4/Con +2?Nor I am asking for completely one dimensional characters . Note I have decent stats outside...
You want my character to focus on DPR and nothing but DPR, except for my BUFF/UTILITY Bard, who you say must increase his Cha as if he were a Sorcerer.
An extra 1st level spell and slightly higher skill checks don't make enough of a difference to compensate for the low Dex/Str scores that you propose. 2 extra rounds of performance? With Dex 14, that simply means he'd miss his attacks 12 seconds longer than usual. If my Bard had Dex 14 and Cha 19, I'd not even bother with archery feats, since I'd not be able to hit the broad side of a mountain.If you honestly think my Bard build is excessively focused on DPR, you are definitely more biased than any other poster in this thread.
And yes, My Bard has those stats and my Paladin has a STR of 14 and a CHA of 18.
That's a terrible set of attributes for a martial character. Does the party bring your Paladin along for the ride just out of curiosity to see if he can survive? Because most parties would expect him to, you know, hit stuff and deal damage. And not only your daily targets of Smite Evil either...
You’re still dodging the main point. You designed the CB user to be sub-optimized on purpose to prove a point. I offered you a set of alternate builds. But you seem scared to compare DPR now, why is that?
I didn't design it to be sub-optimized. I designed it to be as effective a character as he could be without spending all his gold buying bigger weapons and higher Dex.
You're the one suggesting an archer with medium BAB should have Dex 14! If that is not designing a character to sub-optimized on purpose, I don't know what is...
Most games are played at that level. He picked level 10. I picked level 5. Level 5 is more common. Sure, many things change at different levels. I had also picked lvl 1, too.
I didn't pick a level, the OP did. I simply offered 2 builds. And it's not unusual to compare builds at 10th level... Again, check my builds in the my build thread and also on the thread about replacing rogues.
But no, you have it backwards. They are *fully* dedicated archery and *slightly* dedicated CB builds.
Wait... So the Crossbow Ranger spends ALL his feats on ranged combat, focus on Dex over all other attributes, has the most expensive weapon he can buy and uses the most expensive ammo... And he's "slightly dedicated to crossbows"???
WTF is a fully dedicated character? One that doesn't carry Cloaks of Resistance, armor or Headbands of Wisdom and instead only buy belts of Dex and more expensive weapons?
Because such a build won't live long enough to be dedicated to anything...
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STR:07
DEX:14
CON:12
INT:14
WIS+17 (all bumps)
CHA:14
Traits: Birthmark, World Traveler (+1 Kn:Local & class)
01 pala1 [Divine Hunter][Precise Shot], Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload
02 cler1 [Crusader:(Abadar|Travel)][move+10][WF:light crossbow], 1st
03 cler2 Rapid Shot
04 cler3 WIS>18, 2nd
05 figh1 [Cad], Channel Smite, Guided Hand
06 cler4
07 cler5 [Shield Focus], Improved Initiative, 3rd
08 cler6 (BAB6)
09 cler7 4th, Manyshot
10 cler8
11 cler9 Quicken Spell, 5th
12 cler0 [Weapon Specialization:light crossbow]
...you can fly, shoot, talk, make your saves, cake-walk undead, smite occasionally, sense motive and cast divine spells. What's not to love?
...you can fly, shoot, talk, make your saves, cake-walk undead, smite occasionally, sense motive and cast divine spells. What's not to love?
I'd say his damage is probably too low, his spell casting is 2 levels late and his feat selection includes a rather useless feat (Manyshot doesn't work with Crossbows)... Still a decent support healer/buffer, I suppose.
Personally, I'd remove the Paladin level (Your Smite Evil will be pretty weak and Clerics already have awesome saves, so you're basically sacrificing a caster level for Detect Evil), focus on melee and buy a nice weapon with the Guided property (this way you save 2 feats)... Also, bribing the GM so that he ignores encumbrance rules is really important if you plan to use armor and/or carry backup weapons...
...you can fly, shoot, talk, make your saves, cake-walk undead, smite occasionally, sense motive and cast divine spells. What's not to love?
No precise shot & improved precise shot means +8 on many shots, almost certainly +4 on about 90%. That's an action better spent being a cleric.
No it's still around and in ultimate equipment. The problem is the penalty is -4 if you are proficient.My fix would be one that's actually PFS-legal: the minotaur double crossbow. It's from Classic Monsters Revisited, and it's pretty great. It's an exotic weapon that does 1d8 damage, but fires two bolts, each at a -2 to hit. Each bolt gets modified by everything but precision damage. The downside is that each bolt takes a standard action to reload. Crossbow Mastery, however, makes it one free action.Actually I think that is no longer legal...
I meant the Free Action...
@DrDeth: I find Level 10 is more common than people think. Most "Short" Campaigns I have seen go to that level and that is when you are at end game and really need to be at peak effectiveness.
Yeah, yeah yeah. But in your postings here of how cruddy a CB was (It's always nice to see how crossbow Rangers (with a +3 crossbow and spending lots of gold on alchemical bolts) deal less damage than:”), you never mentioned HP, more skills and better Will , you mentioned one thing and one thing only= DPR.Because, believe it or not, the only thing that weapons affect is damage. That doesn't mean those builds should be one-dimensional. Their attributes are different because there's no reason for them to be the same! Ross has no use for Str, but Con ans Wisdom are still useful, so is Int. Archie and the others focus on Dex and Str first because that's what every archer build ever would do!
You’re still dodging the comparo. My builds aren’t one dimensional. Just that since all your comments focused on DPR Here’s what we’re refuting and comparing: ”It's always nice to see how crossbow Rangers (with a +3 crossbow and spending lots of gold on alchemical bolts) deal less damage than:
1- A Str-drained Ranger with a longbow.2- A switch-hitter Ranger who only uses bows as a back-up weapons.
3- A Bard with a shortbow.” And “A Crossbow Ranger still deals less damage than a archer Ranger who had his Str score reduced by -4, a switch-hitter Ranger who only uses longbows as secondary weapon, and even a freaking Bard with a bow! “ and “I devote all my resources and I'm still can't be nearly as good as half-decent archer." Etc.
You continue to dodge the comparo. Why is that?
But please- you nerfed the CB guys stats, and bought the LB guys better stat boosting items. This more than made up for the +1. And, my compare has EXACTLY the same magic items for both. But you’re still dodging it. “Archie and the others focus on Dex and Str first because that's what every archer build ever would do! “ yeah, so why isn’t Rosses Dex even higher as he doesn’t need str? Why? Cause you deliberately build him poorly to prove a point.
I notice you’re still dodging the comparo. Hmm, why is that?
Look, do the comparo. If you find it shortchanges the bard, then knock the bard’s CHA down by -2 and boost his Dx by that much. It won’t make much difference.
You’re dodging the comparison as you know your builds were biased and thus bogus. You do the DPR comparison, then try to wiggle out of it. But however, I know you already ran the numbers, and they showed your DPR numbers were bogus. Thus, rather than posting them, you'll just try and justify your biased builds and dodge my request.
@DrDeth: I find Level 10 is more common than people think. Most "Short" Campaigns I have seen go to that level and that is when you are at end game and really need to be at peak effectiveness.
Level 10 is certainly not bogus, like say 20. But he picked 10 as it advances his point.
But you have to admit 5 is pretty common.
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1.)There is no crossbow equivalent of Arcane Archer. I'd like to see a crossbowman spend 76 gold to have the equivalent of 20 +1 Shocking Burst Distance arrows of Fireball. Please show me how a fully dedicated crossbowman can do that.
2.)The crossbowmen may have had a 10 str. because he needed to carry his gear, crossbows are heavier than longbows, and Rangers wear medium armor and have other gear that they don't want encumbering them.
I accepted a str of 10. I didn't dump any stat.
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A crossbow is a Simple Weapon, and therefore available to more classes than the Martial Longbow. Being a Simple Weapon vs. a Martial, it SHOULD be worse than the Martial Equivalent at similar levels of investment.
The advantage of the crossbow (why it revolutionised warfare) has always been that it can be used by any old commoner... Which is reflected by the rules.
I think the problem is that people are expecting more of a Simple weapon than is necessary for it to fill the role of the crossbow within the rules.
No number of feats will make a dagger a kukri, why should the crossbow be different?
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But please- you nerfed the CB guys stats, and bought the LB guys better stat boosting items. This more than made up for the +1.
Considering his weapon, belt and ammo, Ross spent 10000gp + 18000gp + 5gp on his DPR. That's 28000gp, and that's before accounting for alchemical ammo. With a Belt of Dex+4, this cost would rise to 34000gp, meaning Ross would have to give up another 6000gp worth of survivability. What would that be? His headband of Wisdom? His Cloak of Resistance? His Mithral Breastplate?
Archie, OTOH, spent 16000gp + 9000gp, that's 25000gp, which as we all know, is less than 28000gp (+ ammo).
Archie spent more on his belt because he has a cheaper weapon. Ross spent more on his weapon because he bought a cheaper belt (an extra +1 on attack and damage is obviously better than a +1 to attack only).
And, my compare has EXACTLY the same magic items for both. But you’re still dodging it. “Archie and the others focus on Dex and Str first because that's what every archer build ever would do! “ yeah, so why isn’t Rosses Dex even higher as he doesn’t need str? Why? Cause you deliberately build him poorly to prove a point.
No I did it because pusshing beyond a 16 in point-buy is extremely expensive, and Ross would have much lower Con and Wis, which would nullify his advantage in survivability for little benefit in DPR.
Starting with Dex 18 already ensures he'll hit his target most of the time, pushing for higher than that is a waste of attribute points. Go ahead and check any other build I've ever posted in this forum, see if any of them starts with a 20 or even a 19 in their primary stat. Unless they're an arcane full casters, NONE of my builds start have over 18 on their primary stat, it simply costs too much.
And if Ross decided to dump Str, he wouldn't even be able to carry his weapons and armor.
You’re dodging the comparison as you know your builds were biased and thus bogus. You do the DPR comparison, then try to wiggle out of it. But however, I know you already ran the numbers, and they showed your DPR numbers were bogus. Thus, rather than posting them, you'll just try and justify your biased builds and dodge my request.
You want me to compare to a archer with Dex 14 and Str 12. I find your suggestion for character attributes to be silly. I'm not dodging, I just think your proposed build is purposely terrible and unworthy of any serious comparison.
It's kinda funny, because so far, at least 3 other posters agreed with my choice of attributes and that same choice is present in all other builds I have ever posted in this forum...
But somehow, I'm the one who is biased, not you and your archer builds with Dex 14 and Str 12...
A crossbow is a Simple Weapon, and therefore available to more classes than the Martial Longbow. Being a Simple Weapon vs. a Martial, it SHOULD be worse than the Martial Equivalent at similar levels of investment.
The advantage of the crossbow (why it revolutionised warfare) has always been that it can be used by any old commoner... Which is reflected by the rules.
I think the problem is that people are expecting more of a Simple weapon than is necessary for it to fill the role of the crossbow within the rules.
No number of feats will make a dagger a kukri, why should the crossbow be different?
I think I answered this before, but let me try again...
- The difference is 1 feat. One. And yet, a crossbowman can invest 2~3 feats more, and still be overshadowed by an Archer.
- I don't mind crossbows not being as good as longbows. The problem is that they are not just slightly inferior, they are extremely inferior. They simply can't compete at all!
- By that logic, exotic weapons should be superior to martial weapons as well, but even exotic crossbows are inferior to bows. The fact that they require a feat makes them even worse than you average simple crossbow.
@DrDeth: I find Level 10 is more common than people think. Most "Short" Campaigns I have seen go to that level and that is when you are at end game and really need to be at peak effectiveness.Level 10 is certainly not bogus, like say 20. But he picked 10 as it advances his point.
But you have to admit 5 is pretty common.
I didn't pick the level. The OP did.
And all other build threads I've seen recently show characters at 10th level... Including the current "Can the Rogue be Replaced?" thread and both build threads that I participated in (one of which I started myself, where all my builds are displayed at levels 1, 3, 6 and 10).
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A crossbow is a Simple Weapon, and therefore available to more classes than the Martial Longbow. Being a Simple Weapon vs. a Martial, it SHOULD be worse than the Martial Equivalent at similar levels of investment.
The advantage of the crossbow (why it revolutionised warfare) has always been that it can be used by any old commoner... Which is reflected by the rules.
I think the problem is that people are expecting more of a Simple weapon than is necessary for it to fill the role of the crossbow within the rules.
No number of feats will make a dagger a kukri, why should the crossbow be different?
Firearms are simple weapons if they become common enough. So.. by this logic, firearms should be weaker than bows. But fire arms are also exotic if they're still rare. So, then they should be stronger than bows. Or if somewhere in the middle they become martial, so they should be equal with bows.
Then a Handcrossbow is an exotic weapon, as is repeating crossbows. So those three should be way better than a martial equivalent.
A Great Axe and A Great club are both martial 2h weapons, yet one is vastly better than the other. Though a Great Axe and Earth Breaker are on fairly equal grounds.
A Dagger is a simple weapon, But a war razor is weaker yet being martial. A Butterfly knife is a little better than a war razor, but still weaker than a dagger, despite being an exotic weapon
Fighters are prof with all simple weapons, and martial weapons. Which means they are prof with flails (Do note that the ropey end of a flail is harder to use than a sword) Bows, swords, spears, axes, hammers.. evening farming and mineing equipment. Oh and human fighters are prof with ratling and kobold tail spikes.
For some reason, a hand crossbow is MUCH more difficult to use than a Longbow, requiring a specialized feat to do so that requires a +1 bab. This for some reason reduces your ability to hit with it, a pretty significant amount despite the previous incarnations of crossbow being rather similar, while a Compound Long bow and a normal Longbow are somehow so exactly the same, that it doesn't matter if you have weapon focus Longbow or C.Longbow, you can use all your feats for the same weapons.
Magic also revolutionized warefar as it could be used by any old commoner, or not. Oh thats right. Magic doesn't exist in the real world and the rules refle.. okay they don't.
Lets look at heroes that use crossbows shall we? Cause this game isn't Peasents and Phantoms. We are not playing commoners. We are playing heroes, the adventures, the Pathfinders if you would.
Bogoff Marcus weilds a wrist crossbow armed with silver tipped crossbow bolts. He's capable of launching out a massive rain of these bolts devastating a large group of lesser vampires in the Anime Vampire Hunter D bloodlust.
Van Hellsing uses a special steampowered rapid-reload crossbow that can fire an infinite amount of bolts. He does so much like a person would fire a submachine gun.
Hei from Darker than black. This would be our equivalent of a light crossbow. Notice the position he is in, up in a tree. Imagine trying to fire a long bow from there. The rules do not reflect how difficult of a situation this would be for a longbow vs a crossbow. Notice as well how he's lining up a shot with the crossbow, much like a rifle. Again, rules do not reflect this. Ideally, imo at least, Crossbow type weapons should have the ability to extend the range of sneak attack and other precision based attacks that stop at the 30foot mark. Like Hand gives you 40, light gives 50, and heavy gets you 60.
Gutz from berserk, uses a repeating crossbow with extreme effectiveness.
Link uses a crossbow, otherwise this would be Link's Longbow training.
Gordon Freeman How quickly we forget about this one.
I don't care to run DPR math just to support Lemmy because, no offense Lemmy, but I don't like doing theorycraft math just to prove an obviously proven point.
WHAT???!!! HOW DARE YOU NOT LIKE THEORYCRAFT MATH JUST TO PROVE OBVIOUSLY PROVEN POINTS? YOU BRING SHAME TO MANKIND!
:P
JK, obviously...
No offense taken, man. You didn't even say anything offensive. I'm more than satisfied with simply having an unbiased player in the discussion. ^^
3.5 had some nice crossbow feats. I'd like to bring back my dwarf sniper someday. Don't see it happening tho.
I would let them in to my campaigns...
@Abrisene
I have no problem with the suggestion of making new builds using the elite array (if you remember me from other threads, you may have noticed that I really like building characters), but I can't promise I'll do it today because I'm tired of building the same character over and over again... And tomorrow will be a particularly busy day for me, but I'll try and do it this Saturday...
Also, I think the elite arrays hurts crossbowmen even more. They end up with a unnecessarily high Str score and no real advantage in other areas either...
@CWheezy
Haha, thanks for the support, sir (or lady, I can't know... No offense). Sadly, I don't have such a magnificent beard... But if I ever grow one, you'll be the first to know! Well... Other than me, of course... And every one who sees me everyday... But you'll be the first forum member to know! Except for the ones who play with me IRL... Okay, you'll definitely be the 3rd forum member to know!
BTW, The damage formula used in the DPR olympics is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
I use an Excel spreadsheet I made myself.
I only have to enter the AC and attack bonus instead of calculating chances to hit (then it tells me what would be required roll to hit the target AC), and it includes things such as bonus to confirm critical hits (such as the one provided by Critical Focus), so it's easier and faster than calculating (%) of chance to hit every time. It's a bit confusing, though... I'm trying to make it easier to understand so I can share it with other forum members.
My choice of how to fix the crossbow:
Any crossbow: Hit +2 (Simple point and click interface), Reload = Free Action.
Heavy: Character may not move more than a 5 foot step if reloading. (Use of stirrup and crank)
Light: Character may not move more than at half speed if reloading. (Use of stirrup and hand pull)
Hand: No impediment, moved so be a Simple Weapon.
Repeating: Loading a new clip be the same as drawing a weapon (Move Action), and affected by Quick Draw. To refill a clip, instead of loading it, to be a Full-Round Action that Provokes.
Add some penetration to this, maybe some Strength as Composite bow, and we may have a solution.
There is a post about increased Sneak Attack range, that might be an idea as well. I would just go for half of the first range increment. It does bring up a question of "Why crossbows and not firearms?", though. Of course, shooting a gun is not nearly as sneaky. :)
Regarding the guy shooting a crossbow from a tree, what makes that funny is that Elves stereotypically shoot their bows from trees. But you are right, a crossbow is a far better choice for doing that.
My choice of how to fix the crossbow:
Any crossbow: Hit +2 (Simple point and click interface), Reload = Free Action.
Heavy: Character may not move more than a 5 foot step if reloading. (Use of stirrup and crank)
Light: Character may not move more than at half speed if reloading. (Use of stirrup and hand pull)
Hand: No impediment, moved so be a Simple Weapon.
Repeating: Loading a new clip be the same as drawing a weapon (Move Action), and affected by Quick Draw. To refill a clip, instead of loading it, to be a Full-Round Action that Provokes.
Those are nice ideas, but I think the solution is simpler... Allow crossbows to add Str to their damage.
Let's think... Why do longbows add Str to damage? You're obviously not bludgeoning people to death with your bow, so it must be related to your arrows.
But how does your Str makes your arrows hit any harder? Simple, it's the tension that your muscles put on your bow's string. Then you release it, and this tension becomes kinetic energy, shooting the arrow far away!
But the same thing happens in crossbows! The only difference is that you're putting your energy into the lever and the lever is the causing the tension in the crossbow's string! The only difference is that you're doing it indirectly.
Oh, but there is more! Levers make it easier for you to move stuff. They maximize your Str! So, in fact, Crossbows should have MORE penetrating power than bows!
And IRL, they did!
If the rules were meant to be realistic, crossbows would deal more damage than bows, but have much lower fire rate.
Unfortunately, all they got was the lower fire rate without getting anything to compensate for it.
The real reason for longbows to be so superior to all other ranged weapons is, as another forum member put it (can't remember who right now, sorry), because western fantasy worships longbows about as much as eastern fantasy worships katanas...
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A crossbow is a Simple Weapon, and therefore available to more classes than the Martial Longbow. Being a Simple Weapon vs. a Martial, it SHOULD be worse than the Martial Equivalent at similar levels of investment.
The advantage of the crossbow (why it revolutionised warfare) has always been that it can be used by any old commoner... Which is reflected by the rules.
I think the problem is that people are expecting more of a Simple weapon than is necessary for it to fill the role of the crossbow within the rules.
No number of feats will make a dagger a kukri, why should the crossbow be different?
Actually..
Dagger vs Kukri
Daggers are a light simple weapon, with a 10 foot range increment, +2 to slight of hand checks to conceal them on your body, do 1d4 points of damage and have a 19-20/x2 critical
A Kukri is a light martial weapon, cannot be thrown, does not get SoH bonuses, deals the same amount of damage, but has a slightly increased crit range and lacks the ability to do P damage
Thats the very first start of it.. Then we have the knife master who can with a dagger have 1d8 points of sneak attack damage, and +1/2 his level to conceal them on his person
The Kukri doesn't have that. The only thing a Kukri really has going for it is being one of the few weapons with an 18-20 crit.
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A crossbow is a Simple Weapon, and therefore available to more classes than the Martial Longbow. Being a Simple Weapon vs. a Martial, it SHOULD be worse than the Martial Equivalent at similar levels of investment.
The advantage of the crossbow (why it revolutionised warfare) has always been that it can be used by any old commoner... Which is reflected by the rules.
More importantly, it could be used by any old WEAK commoner; and they were CHEAP.
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My choice of how to fix the crossbow:
Any crossbow: Hit +2 (Simple point and click interface), Reload = Free Action.
Heavy: Character may not move more than a 5 foot step if reloading. (Use of stirrup and crank)
Light: Character may not move more than at half speed if reloading. (Use of stirrup and hand pull)
Hand: No impediment, moved so be a Simple Weapon.
Repeating: Loading a new clip be the same as drawing a weapon (Move Action), and affected by Quick Draw. To refill a clip, instead of loading it, to be a Full-Round Action that Provokes.
Those are nice ideas, but I thin the solution is simpler... Allow crossbows to add Str to their damage.
Let's think... Why do longbows add Str to damage? You're obviously not bludgeoning people to death with your bow, so it must be related to your arrows.
But how does your Str makes your arrows hit any harder? Simple, it's the tension that your muscles put on your bow's string. Then you release it, and this tension becomes kinetic energy, shooting the arrow far away!But the same thing happens in crossbows! The only difference is that you're putting your energy into the lever and the lever is the causing the tension in the crossbow's string! The only difference is that you're doing it indirectly.
Oh, but there is more! Levers make it easier for you to move stuff. They maximize your Str! So, in fact, Crossbows should have MORE penetrating power than bows!
And IRL, they did! If the rules are meant to be realistic, crossbows would deal more damage than bows, but have much lower fire rate.
Unfortunately, all they got was the lower fire rate without getting anything to compensate for it.
The real reason for longbows to be so superior to all other ranged weapons is, as another forum member put it (can't remember who right now, sorry), because western fantasy worships longbows about as much as eastern fantasy worships katanas...
To max out strength, what if crossbows got 1.5 STR. modifier. The suggestion on crossbow reloading are great solutions, Abrisene. What if also, you could get some bonus to hit only if your str+dex=x. Like you could get manyshot if you had at least a 12 strength and dex (to prevent cheese builds with ridiculous dex or ridiculous strength), and the modifiers added together equaled 7.
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More importantly, it could be used by any old WEAK commoner; and they were CHEAP.A crossbow is a Simple Weapon, and therefore available to more classes than the Martial Longbow. Being a Simple Weapon vs. a Martial, it SHOULD be worse than the Martial Equivalent at similar levels of investment.
The advantage of the crossbow (why it revolutionised warfare) has always been that it can be used by any old commoner... Which is reflected by the rules.
Though a Hand gonne (early firearm) replaced crossbows later on.
Notice that firearms are exotic/martial weapon until revolvers are available for everyone?
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To max out strength, what if crossbows got 1.5 STR. modifier. The suggestion on crossbow reloading are great solutions, Abrisene. What if also, you could get some bonus to hit only if your str+dex=x. Like you could get manyshot if you had at least a 12 strength and dex (to prevent cheese builds with ridiculous dex or ridiculous strength), and the modifiers added together equaled 7.
I thought about the 1.5x Str modifier... But that'd mean a single feat (Rapid Reload) puts Light crossbows ahead of longbows, which is a bit weird, IMO...
So, to balance that, I thought of 2 ideas:
1 - The only crossbows that should be able to add 1.5x Str modifier should be the ones that require at least a standard action to reload: That means the crossbowman have to invest 2 feats (Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery) to deal more damage than an archer... Higher investment = higher damage... It makes sense from a game balance perspective.
Light crossbows would just add your usual Str modifier and Hand crossbows could be limited to half Str only, so TWF with them wouldn't make them too good (but to be fair, if you decide to go for two huge feat chains, such as ranged combat and TWF, you deserve to deal more damage! Besides, bows still have the extra damage from Manyshot)
2- Create a feat (or weapon enhancement) that allows archers to add 1.5x their Str modifier to bows as well: This seems a bit silly, since archery is already a powerful combat style, but nothing too far fetched, IMO.
Honestly, the only combat feat that I think makes archery too powerful is Clustered Shots, all others are okay. (Though I'd fuse Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot into a single feat... Or simply remove PBS).
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I thought about the 1.5x Str modifier... But that'd mean a single feat (Rapid Reload) puts Light crossbows ahead of longbows, which is a bit weird, IMO...
So, to balance that, I thought of 2 ideas:
1 - The only crossbows that should be able to add 1.5x Str modifier should be the ones that require at least a standard action to reload: That means the crossbowman have to invest 2 feats (Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery) to deal more damage than an archer... Higher investment = higher damage... It makes sense from a game balance perspective.
Light crossbows would just add your usual Str modifier and Hand crossbows could be limited to half Str only, so TWF with them wouldn't make them too good (but to be fair, if you decide to go for two huge feat chains, such as ranged combat and TWF, you deserve to deal more damage! Besides, bows still have the extra damage from Manyshot)2- Create a feat (or weapon enhancement) that allows archers to add 1.5x their Str modifier to bows as well: This seems a bit silly, since archery is already a powerful combat style, but nothing too far fetched, IMO.
Honestly, the only combat feat that I think makes archery too powerful is Clustered Shot, the others are okay. (Though I'd fuse Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot into a single feat... Or simply remove PBS).
Fair enough.Both solutions seem balanced enough they could be in the same game.
It seems to me that part of the problem being faced here is that Lemmy is reposting information from another thread, which had it's own rough guidelines. While I endorse Lemmy's findings, perhaps a baseline should be agreed upon.
I propose:
1 - Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
2 - Character Level 10
3 - No Traits
4 - Wealth by Level
5 - Target AC of 24
These were the agreed rules of the DPR Olympics, excluding the lack of Traits. [LINK]
While I understand this is not a strict DPR discussion, these seem good as a baseline.
Like I said, I would like to see level 5, not 10.
Hey, guys! Look at what I found!
A ranged Alchemist build that I made before the crossbow build thread even existed!
Surely he has high Int and lowish Dex and Str, right?
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Huh... I guess not... Maybe I'm not very good at building ranged half-caster builds.
Anyway, let's see what is his weapon of choice, then... It must be quite different from Barry's...
Ranged: ... +2 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +17/+12 (1d8+6/19-20/x3)
That's odd... Well, this isn't over yet! Surely his belt just adds +2 Str and +2 Dex!
Other Gear: +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Composite longbow (Str +2), +2 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), Silversheen Cestus, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Handy haversack (2 @ 44 lbs), Headband of vast intelligence +2 (Fly), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (empty), Alchemist's kit, Masterwork tool (Disable Device), Masterwork tool (Knowledge [arcana]), Masterwork tool (Knowledge [nature]), Masterwork tool (Stealth), Portable alchemist's lab, 375 GP
Man, I suck at character building! My archer's Dex is too high!
Either that or I'm such a shameless cheater that I actually went back in time just to create this guys before the crossbow build thread even existed just to skew numbers in my favor.
I apologize for my time-warping cheating.
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But hey! At least his DPR is actually lower than Ross':
Alchemist's DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 27.46
Ross' DPR using Heavy Crossbow + Acid Bolts + Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 34.7
Good job, Ross! You can out-DPR an unbuffed alchemist! Your GM must be so proud!
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...I love you, Build thread 3 - Swinging Swords and Kickin Ass!.