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Let's look instead at a notional 14-yr old kid who has to bike a number of miles to the game store to play and doesn't want to risk either his collection of books to a thunderstorm, or the well-being of his lumbar vertebra. What are the issues preventing a photocopy of an owned book from being acceptable proof-of-purchase and what can we do to work around them to the benefit of a (possibly small) segment of the PFS community, without tarring them with the same brush used for the aforementioned scrounger?What if you wrote in the book "this book is property of _______" and THEN photocopied it?
I personally would have no problem with that at all, and it seems a very reasonable medium. It's already on the inside cover anyhow.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Because if you print a page from a PDF in your downloads, it contains your watermark at either the top or bottom of the page. If you photocopy a page from a hardback rulebook, it does not show this watermark. There is no double standard and no backpedalling.
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I have no sympathy for the "But I gotta carry lots of books" complaint.
None.
I've done it.
If I've done it, so can others.
Congratulations on your robust good-health.
Actually, not everyone can do what you can do.
I wouldn't say robust. I've had my fair share of neck, shoulder and back issues. I also have a bum right knee. I had an ACL replacement surgery in 2001 and had a large portion of my meniscus removed.
So the time period where I was carrying the most books, my knee wobbled quite a bit under the weight of the books I carried. Especially when I tried to walk quickly.
Yet I managed.
Those who have other issues that can't handle carrying 40lbs of books, can get the rolling carts or rolling luggage to help out.
They aren't that expensive. $20 to $40 for a cheap version. Will probably only last you one convention, but still fairly cheap.
As for a 14 year old who only has a bike, how are they affording all those books anyways?
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I think that's been a question since copiers came out decades ago, Lormyr, and I don't believe there IS a good answer, or someone would have invented it by now. Heck, digital distribution systems are having a REALLY hard time allowing people to 'lend' part of their library electronically (Such as being able to 'lend' your friend a kindle book).
Look at the xbox One fallout... MS wanted to give people electric libraries, instead of physical ones, which would allow them to virtually lend their games to others within a set of rules (Designed to fight piracy). People had a canary, and they feel back to the good ol' physical model.
If you physically have it in your hands, you can play the xbox one game, now. If you do not have it in your hands, you do not own it.
And if you buy a physical edition, you do not get a digital license. It's one, or the other. If you buy the disc, you need to carry the disc, take care of the disc, etc...or you have no game. If you buy the digital version, you cannot really lend it out, but if you lose it, you can download it again.
It's very, very similar with reading books. You can buy the physical one, and lend it out, give it away, etc...but then you have a lot more to lug around...or you buy the digital version and you're restricted in that way.
This is the best the game and book industries has been able to do. The book industry isn't much different. And, by extension, Paizo is close to that. If you buy or otherwise obtain the physical book, possession is 99/100ths of the law. If you buy the electronic edition, you won't ever be able to legally give it away (outside of violating some terms of agreement and/or giving away your password), but you get the benefits of that medium including lower prices, easier to carry around/print out for PFS, etc.
I think asking Paizo to somehow to do more than that is asking a lot. If there was an easy solution to these types of challenges, I think someone would have came up with idea already...and may be rich off of it. You cannot prove ownership from a photocopy, really. Even if the receipt info was inbedded on the page, how could you prove that you didn't give it away and others made copies of the same?
Mike,
What about the suggestions that have been bandied about in this thread to see if both groups can be accommodated?
That is, to have a chronicle sheet that a VC or VL signs off on (or game day coordinator if no venture staff available in the area), certifying that they have seen the hardcopy books, with the individual's name and PFS number written inside the front cover. With this certificate, photocopies could be used for that player/PFS number owner.
Would that be something that you would or could consider/give some thought to?
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this thread is skirting the edge of 'let them eat cake' in overall tone
please keep in mind that while I am trying to set a good example for brand-spanking-new players both when I GM and play in PFS, those of you with stars/titles are (whether you like it or not) setting an example for me
I am doing my best to make sure I set an example by both following the rules and clearly outlining them for new players, while not discouraging new players in the process
in addition, that involves trying to make sure that I strike a fine balance in making sure that my local gaming stores do not feel put upon by a potential group of people taking up their space, that do not buy anything
there are a lot of good people in my area trying to do the same, many of them to a much further extent than my own efforts
if I had actual feelings I could see being pretty put off by a number of the posts in here
to those discussing the issues that have arrisen due to the rules, both current and potential problems, kudos
I like this hobby (especially organized play) and want to see it grow, bottom line
ugh too many words
that was kind of a brain dump but this thread has been on my mind quite a bit
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Here's one thing that I think is a potential issue, which is caused by the the ease of transporting PDFs.
If buying PDFs from Paizo.com becomes the preferred method of buying books, then the FLGSs will lose out. This is also the case with buying hard-copy from paizo.com, or places like Amazon or other online stores.
I can see two ways of handling this.
1) Give local stores the ability to sell the PDFs. This could happen in many ways... from a simple "click through" link, or to having a one-time use code (under a scratch off) that can be used to redeem the book. This would give the local stores at least something for the purchase of the book.
2) Create a voucher system for books owned. Bring your hard copy in to a store, where they will get stamped, and a voucher given out with a one-time redemption code for a PDF. Ideally this will be free (the PDF version for free as part of the purchase of the hard-copy from the FLGS), but perhaps will cost $1 (or so) if you didn't buy the book from that FLGS. The stamp would be there so that the book cannot be redeemed twice.
I'd be fine with either version, honestly. I've already bought most of the books I own (CRB, APG, UC, UM, UE) in PDF as well as "dead tree", just because I recently got an iPad. I really like "dead tree" media, so would like both... however, I bought all three bestiaries as PDF only (bought because I have been GMing more often, lately).
That all being said, for the first 6 months I have been playing PFS, prior to buying the iPad, I hauled the following books around: CRB, APG, UM, UC, UE, UR, ISWG, PSFG. These weighed a LOT, and were enough to wear out two separate bags I was using (started splitting them up, even! I brought them, because I knew I needed to!
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The reality is, PDF books as been eating away at Game Store sales in this hobby for some time. And I wish I could find it, but there was a REALLY good post from one of the staff members explaining the challenges with doing a lot of what's being suggested here. Long story short, it has been discussed a number of times, and there are very strong challenges to implementing ideas such as the voucher system and the such. Very long story short is that this is a direction that no one company, not even Paizo, can simply turn on and off without some very drastic consequences.
Ultimately, it's what we demand as consumers.
Those who are concerned about supporting FLGS and/or insuring that the FLGS gets a needed monetary return on the group being there and such... there are a lot of ideas we can do and implement that doesn't require changing the current, 21st century book business model. Some of those have already been pointed out, so I won't rehash.
After Gen Con maybe. There is too much on the plates of everyone here at Paizo to add something to that plate a week before most of the company flies out to Indianapolis.
Would that be something that you would or could consider/give some thought to?
Great. Thanks.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Here's one thing that I think is a potential issue, which is caused by the the ease of transporting PDFs.
If buying PDFs from Paizo.com becomes the preferred method of buying books, then the FLGSs will lose out. This is also the case with buying hard-copy from paizo.com, or places like Amazon or other online stores.
I can see two ways of handling this.
1) Give local stores the ability to sell the PDFs. This could happen in many ways... from a simple "click through" link, or to having a one-time use code (under a scratch off) that can be used to redeem the book. This would give the local stores at least something for the purchase of the book.
2) Create a voucher system for books owned. Bring your hard copy in to a store, where they will get stamped, and a voucher given out with a one-time redemption code for a PDF. Ideally this will be free (the PDF version for free as part of the purchase of the hard-copy from the FLGS), but perhaps will cost $1 (or so) if you didn't buy the book from that FLGS. The stamp would be there so that the book cannot be redeemed twice.
I'd be fine with either version, honestly. I've already bought most of the books I own (CRB, APG, UC, UM, UE) in PDF as well as "dead tree", just because I recently got an iPad. I really like "dead tree" media, so would like both... however, I bought all three bestiaries as PDF only (bought because I have been GMing more often, lately).
You know, I have never had this problem. At this point, sales of Paizo books are second in revenue only to sales of Magic: The Gathering in my store. And whenever anyone is looking any hard cover book over and debating whether they want them or not, I have a sure-fire way of getting the sale every time:
Me (or my staff): If you want to pick up that book I can offer you the PDF for free.
Customer: Oh? How?
Me: I'll give you $10 off the price of the book. When we're done, I'll help you set up a Paizo account if you don't already have one, where you can get the PDF for $10. At the same time I'll show you all the other fun stuff you can find on their site, like the messageboard advice threads for that Adventure Path you were looking at, or their online PRD.
It works every time, and I often get ancillary sales like the Condition Cards and Buff Deck or the Combat Pad. I also make sure to tell them about the Pathfinder Society tables we run regularly, and the Learn To Play Pathfinder night we have for newer gamers.
In short: I have zero issues with Paizo's website and their pricing. Quite the contrary, the website and existence of their PDFs sells a lot of books and accessories for me. I recommend stores become a bit more open minded about this. It could make them a lot of money.
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Wow!!! That's awesome to hear, Drogon. This gives me some much needed insight, as I have heard the concern not only from loyal players, but also from the occasional store manager as well. I will be certain to pass this perspective along.
While I know it may not be representative of gamers as a whole, I do know that some (not all) of the gamers at my table buy cards, mats, figures, etc from the store while they are there.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Great. Thanks.After Gen Con maybe. There is too much on the plates of everyone here at Paizo to add something to that plate a week before most of the company flies out to Indianapolis.
Would that be something that you would or could consider/give some thought to?
Agreed! That sounds neat.
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Agreed! That sounds neat.Great. Thanks.Would that be something that you would or could consider/give some thought to?After Gen Con maybe. There is too much on the plates of everyone here at Paizo to add something to that plate a week before most of the company flies out to Indianapolis.
Indeed. Thanks Mike - that's the most we can ask.
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You know, I have never had this problem. At this point, sales of Paizo books are second in revenue only to sales of Magic: The Gathering in my store. And whenever anyone is looking any hard cover book over and debating whether they want them or not, I have a sure-fire way of getting the sale every time:Me (or my staff): If you want to pick up that book I can offer you the PDF for free.
Customer: Oh? How?
Me: I'll give you $10 off the price of the book. When we're done, I'll help you set up a Paizo account if you don't already have one, where you can get the PDF...
Drogon, if only you were the rule and not the exception.
I do think you have a large advantage over a number of your peers in this aspect though, in that you are directly involved with the PFS scene at your store, so you are more in touch with the player base than Joe Average Game Store Owner.
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I'm with Lamontius - I've lurked on this thread for a while now debating on how to chime in.
I love Drogon's suggestion, and that's totally what I'd do if I were the owner of a store with a thriving foundation of Pathfinder players, and shelves with nice shiny products to draw customers passing into perusing.
One of the game stores we're trying to spread the hobby into is a game store dominated by other games. The Pathfinder shelf is a tiny one with maybe $200 of inventory on it. The store is massive, with tens of thousands of dollars each of other games (board games, Magic, War Machine, etc).
I pre-ordered a case of Skull & Shackles from this store to give them a "customer win" for hosting PFS, but ultimately the success of drawing dozens of prospective players in this new area will come because this store sees sales of physical materials and starts to feature them in a more prominent place for when customers are in "browsing" mode.
I already encourage players to purchase books, and character traits are a big driver of those - a fellow PFS player wants to roll up a new PC and grabs Quests & Campaigns, Pirates of the Inner Sea, etc for "access to the trait". Once a player like this has 6-7 of the Player Companions, hauling them around is a bit of a pain and I see no reason they shouldn't be able to simply have it be known by the volunteers within a given store that they "absolutely own those sources" and don't need to weigh themselves down another couple pounds just to cover their various PCs on a game day.
The "photocopy validation sheet" mentioned above that can be initialed by a GM is a great idea.
What makes it an even better idea? The player's actually can be motivated to get this initialed off and it can actually generate conversations about which sources folks own, and which they don't, and turn into recommendations (volunteers upselling!) for additional purchases.
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@Those wishing for Paizo to sell PDF's through retail, here's the best post I could find on the topic:
Vic Wertz explaining PDFs & Retailers
While a solution may be found in the future, I believe Paizo's stance hasn't changed in the past couple of years and I do not believe it will in the near future, either (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
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Trust me .. I understand the plight involved in this ... the way I deal with things is
1 - I make a notepad layout of the character up to 12th level so I know what I need and when I need it
2 - I look at the options I have selected ... and I determine how ABSOLUTELY necessary it is for my Concept in the Following Order
A) Race - your going to be your race from Day 1 so naturally its the required 1st step (E.G.if you own the ARG your Likely Set ... Blood of Angels / Fiends fit in here for alternate heritages)
B) Feat - Feat based purchases can be delayed until they are needed for the build (E.G. I will need to own the bestiary 3 and Animal Archive for my bard by the time she hits 9th for her familiar)
C) Equipment - Same with Feats (E.G. Bard Needs Lands of Linnorm Kings by 36 Fame and Tengu needs Shattered star 2 by the time he hits 8)
D) Trait - Traits from day 1 but traits get a lot of wiggle room unless you need something VERY Specific (E.G. Magus with Touch of fatigue to avoid Arcane Mark spellstrike Cheese)
E) Spells - Typically I don't find spells that are Absolutely Necessary to builds
A-C is where I run into most of my purchases from
you don't need EVERY Book ... you just need what your going to use ... and careful planning can cut down on what you have to buy / lug around etc
I don't think there is a gaming store anywhere that will Prevent you from perusing their books to decide if you Need it or not, in Drogons example above I am sure if a player came in to look at some books and he used his pitch .. if the player answered with "Im not sure if I need it yet" that would be an acceptable answer ... admittedly .. some stores may not have every book you want to look at
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That being said...I have no idea what a good solution would beWhat if when you purchase or select the item/feat/spell etc. in question, you have your GM sign off on the Chronicle sheet for "proof of source." From then on, you just bring a photocopy along with your chronicle sheets?
Take a picture of your book with you and today's newspaper.
Get the photocopy notarized.
Include a copy of your receipt.
Set up a webcam pointed at your bookshelf.
Hire a porter (5PP).
Sign an affidavit.
Muleback cords (1000gp).
Cut out the barcode (with ISBN #) and paste it inside a tiny scrapbook.
I'm just spitballing here.
I admit, I was going to tear into this post because you seem to be pushing for spending more money (get something notarized), but then I saw "buy a porter" and laughed. Well played.
Truth be told, I place some of the blame on Paizo for this. Right now anyone can go to the PRD and look up pretty much every hardcover source item for free. That means in home games, there's no need to provide proof of anything because they have it at their fingertips. Many players in PFS use it as well, and I will admit I look to it if I don't want to look in the hardcopy books that I have.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You know, I have never had this problem. At this point, sales of Paizo books are second in revenue only to sales of Magic: The Gathering in my store. And whenever anyone is looking any hard cover book over and debating whether they want them or not, I have a sure-fire way of getting the sale every time:Me (or my staff): If you want to pick up that book I can offer you the PDF for free.
Customer: Oh? How?
Me: I'll give you $10 off the price of the book. When we're done, I'll help you set up a Paizo account if you don't already have one, where you can get the PDF...
Drogon, if only you were the rule and not the exception.
I do think you have a large advantage over a number of your peers in this aspect though, in that you are directly involved with the PFS scene at your store, so you are more in touch with the player base than Joe Average Game Store Owner.
I will agree that I am more in touch with my player base than Joe Average Game Store Owner. But I am more in touch with ALL of them, not just PFS.
I run the following OrgPlay systems in my store: PFS, Shadowrun Missions, Magic (everything), Warmachine & Hordes, Warhammer 40K, Heroclix, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars LCG, and Living Arcanis. I am the point of contact for the coordinator, or the coordinator himself, for each of these systems, and I do my utmost to be sure that the coordinators' products are represented the way they think they should be represented. I also offer my coordinators 20% off any purchases of the product they coordinate for, creating a leader who cares about seeing his game in the store.
I have run OrgPlay at various points for all of the following, though they have disappeared for various reasons that may be obvious: Living Forgotten Realms, D&D Encounters, World of Warcraft CCG, Naruto CCG, Malifaux, and Battletech.
I have run non-OrgPlay for nearly everything else in my store (various board games, role playing games, miniatures games, and card games). As I'm typing this I currently have a dozen women in my store playing Mah-Jongg, and each of those women is over the age of 50.
All of these companies that make any of these games do *something* that someone, somewhere, will say is detrimental to their store's business. That is what sets me apart from Average Joe: the ability to realize how those companies make their money and know how to turn that to my advantage. And organized play is the single most powerful tool that any of those companies can provide me.
Tell your store owners to not short-shrift PFS, to take advantage of what Paizo offers them, and they will start making far more money than they thought they could on the PFRPG products.
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First, I hope...REALLY hope you don't buy any book, must less a really expensive one like that one...for just one spell. I've seen people do that. Far be it from me to tell someone how to spend their money, but I will tell ya...if that one spell gets banned down the road, they get REALLY upset. Outside of some of the rules books like Ultimate Equipment, many of the other books serve other purposes. RotRL is a campaign book, eh? My advice is to only buy that book if you're going to use it as a campaign book, or for the flavoring it provides. That way, you won't be disappointed if your one spell gets banned.Second, a player should build his characters around what he owns, or what he's willing to carry around, whichever is the most limiting factor. Just sticking to core, AGP and Ultimate Equipment covers a myriad of builds. Carrying around a 10lb behemoth (like RotRL) for one spell isn't a great idea no more than buying it for that one spell. Just sayin'.
1) I got the book because I ran it.
2) My problem is with the what your willing to carry bit because that is telling a player, yes you spent the money on the book...but if your not willing/unable to carry said book, you can't use it. When it was a few hard cover books and a dozen or so booklets, yeah reasonable. With the library you can own now? I think this is a not too reasonable stance and we should look at maybe accommodating those of us who still buy physical books.
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Truth be told, I place some of the blame on Paizo for this. Right now anyone can go to the PRD and look up pretty much every hardcover source item for free. That means in home games, there's no need to provide proof of anything because they have it at their fingertips. Many players in PFS use it as well, and I will admit I look to it if I don't want to look in the hardcopy books that I have.
It cuts the other way too. Sometimes I see a trait or something I want to use online, so I snag the book.
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I think that's been a question since copiers came out decades ago, Lormyr, and I don't believe there IS a good answer, or someone would have invented it by now.
Before I carry on, I'd like to point out that I speak only for myself and my views on this topic. I don't appreciate when others put words in my mouth, so I try not to do the same. (Saying so to state I do not agree with some of the tones being presented - not you specifically Phillip, I appreciate your pleasant exchange of ideas on the matter. Just a general statement.)
That said, I can agree with you bud. I know that this is not a simple situation, or it would not have arisen. My goals in speaking of this matter at this time are three.
1). Bring attention to an issue I consider to be an inequality of convenience between (italicized to limit misunderstanding or misreading) hardback owners and PDF owners.
2). For now, discuss the issue and see what people's thoughts are.
3). For now, present some ideas for ways in which to find a happy medium between allowing Paizo to maintain sales, affirm legal ownerships, and allow hardbackers to enjoy the level of printed/copied convenience that PDfer's do.
I neither expect nor demand any changes immediately. Clearly Gen Con has to take priority at this point. This issue is just one important to myself, so I intend to keep conversation about highlighted so that it can be reviewed by a broad audience for consideration.
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You know, I have never had this problem. At this point, sales of Paizo books are second in revenue only to sales of Magic: The Gathering in my store.
I am thrilled for you Drogon. I know it's hard for a lot of store owners to handle the pressure of digital product these days, so I am genuinely glad you are doing well in that regard. Unfortunately, my personal experience has been the opposite. I originally bought my hardbacks from stores because I believe in returning loyalty to those who help you out, even though I could have saved near 30% or more by ordering from Amazon.
If I would have known I would some day have been part of the awesome that is PFS, and correctly known of the additional resource requirements vs. my misunderstanding of photocopy legality from some leadership posts made (I will shoulder all blame for this), I would likely have had to choose PDFs over the books sadly.
And I honestly believe we can do better than this being the if/and/or choice it is shaping up to be.
Signing in your physical book your name and PFS # prior to photocopying is not the most terrible idea, nor is allowing a game day coordinator to witness once your ownership and then sign off on your character sheet.
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I have walked around with 5 hardcover books (including the Core Rulebook) and 5 to 10 softcover books in my backpack. Its overfull, very heavy (especially after walking half a mile or more with it), but I managed, because I had to. I also had a rolling file box with a handle that I would keep all my scenarios, chronicles, and such in. I don’t use that anymore, but it was something I used once upon a time.
Oh boo hoo. My current gaming backpack has 11 hard back, 4 AP booklets, and 1 softcover (and that is small since I usually have more AP booklets then that). And yes I am NOT gonna add more to that just so I can use some minor spell here or there from the various other APs I have run and are sitting at home. So basically your advice is once again, don't use something I paid for (yes I admit I did not pay for said spell specifically...I paid to run the AP with my friends and have fun...but I did PAY for the book).
Also the whole because I do it, everyone else can is BS. I carry WAY more books then anyone else I know in this area. Hell by your admission way more then YOU. I am not gonna say that because I can lug around this many books, everyone else can too. Hell there are plenty of people who can't even LIFT my gaming bag (and wheeling luggage or not, you have to lift it at SOME point...to get on the bus, into the trunk, etc etc...unless your suggesting packing and unpacking your bag before these points is still reasonable...because at that point, I'm gonna say no to that).
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" My problem is with the what your willing to carry bit because that is telling a player, yes you spent the money on the book...but if your not willing/unable to carry said book, you can't use it. When it was a few hard cover books and a dozen or so booklets, yeah reasonable. With the library you can own now? I think this is a not too reasonable stance and we should look at maybe accommodating those of us who still buy physical books."
1). Bring attention to an issue I consider to be an inequality of convenience between (italicized to limit misunderstanding or misreading) hardback owners and PDF owners.
Indeed. I do not believe anyone denies that. I think those that might have denied it saw that in the Xbox One deal that recently take place. Consumers want the ownership, and ability to share/lend/etc that comes with a physical medium, but the power of convenience that comes with an electronic medium. Right now, they are still two very different mediums with clearly defined contrasts in terms of what they bring to the table.
In a perfect world, where everything is fair, sure, they would be the same. But right now, we still have lots of limitations. And, as a result, everything isn't exactly where either the consumer or the developers would like it to be (see my post above about MS' own struggle). I do not say what I say because I think it's what SHOULD happen, its simply the reality of the limitations of the media we choose the buy, and the guidelines that the people who run PFSOP feel they need to have in place for this to be successful for them. Because, ultimately, if its not successful for them, we don't have a game to play. Conversely, if these limitations (which cannot easily be addressed at the moment) inconvenience and disenfranchise some people...its regrettable, maybe even unfair...but what can you do? At the risk of sounding trite, life isn't always fair.
For now, present some ideas for ways in which to find a happy medium between allowing Paizo to maintain sales, affirm legal ownerships, and allow hardbackers to enjoy the level of printed/copied convenience that PDfer's do.
If we do suggest something that the campaign management finds acceptable for their goals *and* makes more people happy, well, I'm all for that. As someone else said here, I want to see more people play, though I would add to that, I want to see more people play in ways that also helps Paizo to grow as a company because I want to see them release more awesome products well into the future.
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If you don't want to, or can't afford to also buy the PDFs, or you want to support your FLGS (commendable), that's fine.But there are consequences for all choices.
WHY?!? Why must there be a consequence to those things? You assuming that the fact that those actions have a penalty is OKAY. I am saying NO IT ISN'T. If you think that players who do things a certain way MUST have a penalty, then you are saying that playing a certain way MUST BE PUNISHED.
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I have walked around with 5 hardcover books (including the Core Rulebook) and 5 to 10 softcover books in my backpack. Its overfull, very heavy (especially after walking half a mile or more with it), but I managed, because I had to. I also had a rolling file box with a handle that I would keep all my scenarios, chronicles, and such in. I don’t use that anymore, but it was something I used once upon a time.
Oh boo hoo. My current gaming backpack has 11 hard back, 4 AP booklets, and 1 softcover (and that is small since I usually have more AP booklets then that). And yes I am NOT gonna add more to that just so I can use some minor spell here or there from the various other APs I have run and are sitting at home. So basically your advice is once again, don't use something I paid for (yes I admit I did not pay for said spell specifically...I paid to run the AP with my friends and have fun...but I did PAY for the book).
Also the whole because I do it, everyone else can is BS. I carry WAY more books then anyone else I know in this area. Hell by your admission way more then YOU. I am not gonna say that because I can lug around this many books, everyone else can too. Hell there are plenty of people who can't even LIFT my gaming bag (and wheeling luggage or not, you have to lift it at SOME point...to get on the bus, into the trunk, etc etc...unless your suggesting packing and unpacking your bag before these points is still reasonable...because at that point, I'm gonna say no to that).
You are one of the people, based on your comment in both this thread, and other threads, that I feel has an entitlement issue.
If you want to use an ability, bring the book with you. Its that simple.
You should have seen all the crap I carted around with me at Gen Con 2011. I probably had over 100 pounds of stuff, of which about 50 I carried down to the gaming area every day.
I have no sympathy for you. The rules have been there for longer than you've been playing this game. Just because you have ignored it, and nobody's called you on it, doesn't mean the rule didn't exist.
You chose to make characters with all those sources. Nobody forced you to do so. The consequences of both your choice to build with that many sources and to not buy PDF's, is that you gotta find a way to tote many 10's of pounds of books. And it isn't hard to figure out how to do that, without breaking your back.
Between 2001 and 2004, I toted all my 3.0 and 3.5 stuff with me to conventions. That was a LOT more than 11 hardbacks.
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If we do suggest something that the campaign management finds acceptable for their goals *and* makes more people happy, well, I'm all for that. As someone else said here, I want to see more people play, though I would add to that, I want to see more people play in ways that also helps Paizo to grow as a company because I want to see them release more awesome products well into the future.
On this point, we could not agree more, sir. *If* the only workable choice is between "use PDFs for PFS so Paizo can stay in business" or "use your photocopies, but know that doing so damages us greatly", I would choose option #1 with a quickness. I too love this game, admire the company, and want to see both prosper and grow.
I happen firmly believe we can do better than those *if's*, however. Digital piracy can't be stopped at this time, and will continue to happen despite precautions taken by Paizo, PFS management, or others well beyond this particular discussion. Some gamers are just freeloaders as well, and that too can be difficult to stop in general, though this solution does limit such capability in PFS. I have to believe that the majority of those who play and enjoy this game and being part of PFS will do their part to support it, however. It has additionally been my experience that GMs checking those additional resources is generally limited to when something is used during play that is either thought to be employed incorrectly, or the GM is simply unfamiliar with.
I know that since my group of friends became part of PFS in Oct 2012, the five of us alone have purchased a total of 38 scenarios between us. We get together every Sat and play from noon until someone can't go on, so our scenario, module, and AP turn over rate is substantially larger than most players.
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Digital piracy can't be stopped at this time, and will continue to happen despite precautions taken by Paizo, PFS management, or others well beyond this particular discussion.
I know that piracy overall has trumped any form of copy protection over and over. Heck, as soon as the government makes a new $20 bill, someone has found a way to replicate it! However, having some form or copy protection generally does a good job of discouraging widespread abuse. My car lock analogy above applies here. I have had cheaters/pirates at my table before. And these steps, as simple (and ineffective against hard care thieves) as they are, have worked to discourage those individuals from playing and/or forces them to buy the products (for those who wish to stay in).
I have had very frank conversations with several of my players who tell me they use illegal PDFs, but plan to buy legit ones before they come to one of our area cons (mostly because I have a reputation for checking sources). These events are big enough deal, and these protections enough of deterrent, to get some of these guys to pay for products they would not otherwise pay for.
I know that the positive, honest customers usually outweigh these more shady examples. And, in some industries, companies are finding out that removing any and all rights management restrictions is a better business model for them and their bottom line (we've seen the music industry largely move in that direction).
However, Paizo is the only one with the hard core data...so only they can ultimately know what's best for them. I'm just guessing that they're sticking to this because ultimately, in this industry (pen and paper RPGs), this approach works best for their bottom line at the moment.
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It isn't a punishment. It is a core rule of the Pathfinder Society.
I'm not sure why that isn't obvious. No one is saying you can't play with your books, but the post Mike made was pretty clear. Either bring them, or don't use the character that utilizes them.
Once again, it is a rule. It has been a rule. This is nothing new.
Now, maybe after GenCon the matter can be evaluated to find out just what options would be considered acceptable for a "copy", but they are not going to be able to answer that question now. So rather than fire up the torches and start a riot why don't you give the issue some time to sort out.
In the meantime, if you are coming to GenCon, remember to bring your books.
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I know that piracy overall has trumped any form of copy protection over and over. Heck, as soon as the government makes a new $20 bill, someone has found a way to replicate it! However, having some form or copy protection generally does a good job of discouraging widespread abuse.
No argument there. They can, and should, take reasonable precautions to protect their product and livelihood. I am not even saying these precautions are unreasonable. I simply desire to voice my individual concerns and frustration, and humbly request further consideration be taken regarding potential manners in which photocopies for hardback owners might be handled to be considered acceptable material.
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It isn't a punishment. It is a core rule of the Pathfinder Society.
I'm not sure why that isn't obvious. No one is saying you can't play with your books, but the post Mike made was pretty clear. Either bring them, or don't use the character that utilizes them.
Once again, it is a rule. It has been a rule. This is nothing new.
Now, maybe after GenCon the matter can be evaluated to find out just what options would be considered acceptable for a "copy", but they are not going to be able to answer that question now. So rather than fire up the torches and start a riot why don't you give the issue some time to sort out.
In the meantime, if you are coming to GenCon, remember to bring your books.
Yes I realize that it is a rule and that is an old rule. Just because it is a rule doesn't mean it isn't a punishment however. Rules are not inherently fair and impartial. To say that it's fair because it is a rule isn't true. And yes I realize that Mike and crew will look further into this after gen con (because really, to expect so before that is kinda unreasonable)...however, that doesn't mean we can't have further input on the matter.
I don't suppose that we could agree to step away from the discussion until Mike has had a chance to decide if he wants to explore other options for photocopies, after GenCon?
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Noone has seemed to have a problem with this (indeed, noone's asked to see them).
There is a certain measure of trust that's already required between the GM and the players. I don't why it can't be extended to this.
Certainly, a bit of understanding is extended here. When I play with certain players, I generally don't scrutinize their sheets as much as newer players to my table, especially if I have done so recently. If one of these regulars asked me if they *had* to bring the books every week into the store, or if they could leave them in the trunk, I would say the trunk is fine, as long as they had some way to show me things quickly that I had a question on. (I would hesitate to tell them not to bring them at all since if, for some reason I cannot be there, another sub GM may ask for them).
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I've taken to bringing photocopies of the additional resources I'm using, putting them into my character binders, and saying "Here are my additional resources, if you want to see the real book, they're in my car."
That's perfectly acceptable as you do have access to them and if someone asked you for the actual book you could present it.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Ok folks. I have removed several posts. Dial down the vitriol and get back to a civil conversation.2nd Time asking if you missed it first time please see my last post.
Does Paizo make money off any of the licensees I buy on Herolab?
Last post lists in detail exact dollar amounts, each minimum $9.99.
I have no idea. That doesn't fall under my job. If you want the answer to that question, ask in a different message board besides PFS.
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Ok folks. I have removed several posts. Dial down the vitriol and get back to a civil conversation.2nd Time asking if you missed it first time please see my last post.
Does Paizo make money off any of the licensees I buy on Herolab?
Last post lists in detail exact dollar amounts, each minimum $9.99.
Maybe it was missed, maybe not, but most privately held companies don't post information like that on a public forum. It's none of our business.
And, frankly, whether they make money off it or not, it has nothing to do with not allowing you to use HeroLab as a source. Someone else already mentioned above that just because HeroLab says something doesn't make it right, you have to go back to the original source to confirm something works the way you think it does.
I have put quite a bit of money in HeroLab in order to build the characters I want to play. That doesn't change the fact that I also print out watermarked pages for all my characters for things that aren't in core and/or bring the books. Heck, sometimes I need them for my OWN reference let alone the GM requiring it.
Nothing requires you to purchase HeroLab for PFS play, if you chose to do so, that's an expense you chose to bear on your own for convenience's sake. The rule has always been what was stated, there was just some misunderstanding about photocopies; HeroLab was never an official source.
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A Revelation and a solution.
I am shocked at the almost macroed responses by a handful the 5 stars and VO's in this thread who have nothing to offer other than brushoffs to every customer of Paizo who has come in here and asked for conversation on finding a solution that will allow for continued enjoyment of PFS. While you may not have issues with how this is going to work, it is obvious many people do, and it would be foolish for Paizo to continue to allow its "representatives" to maintain this sort of callous and pompous attitude.
My solution was to email in to customer service today and simply cancel most of my subscriptions. I will buy a hand full of pdf's as I need them which will result in probably 30% of the sales that Paizo would have made, and with the savings I will simply buy boardgames from my FLGS and tell them that I am doing it as a tanks for letting us use their space.