As mentioned above, the climb speed means you can walk on walls and roofs just like we walk on concrete.
Climb speed is the same as fly speed or burrow speed. It is a mode of movement.
That raises a good question, can you walk on ceiling of a room with your climb speed? While I would initially assume yes due to it being a mode of movement, when i read the climb entry on page 259 it sounds like the answer is no:
"Climbing
If you have a climb speed, you can use move
actions to climb slopes, walls, and other steep
inclines, and you don’t need to attempt an Athletics
check to climb except in hazardous circumstances
(see the Athletics skill starting on page 136)."
It mentions slopes, walls, and other steep inclines, it does not mention ceilings.
Back on 136 it has ceilings listed as climbable with a climb check dc 30"
"An overhang or a ceiling with handholds only 30 "
"If you have a climb speed (see page 259), you receive a +8 bonus to Athletics checks to climb and don’t need to attempt Athletics checks to climb except in hazardous circumstances."
Directly below that statement is a chart that lists hazardous circumstances:
"Climbing in heavy gravity*
Icy or severely slippery walls*
Climbing in severe wind (31–50 mph)*
Climbing in hurricane-force wind (75–174 mph)*"
"* Hazardous circumstance; creatures with a climb speed must attempt a check in these conditions."
Those are the only one's listed. Nothing mentioning take ten.
As I read it yes, you don't need to make a climb check on slightly slipper (+2 to dc) space station wall (dc25) with strong winds (+2 to dc for total of dc29) as none of those are listed as "hazardous circumstance. However, you would need to make a climb check on space station walls in heavy gravity. Or space station walls with icy or severely slippery walls. Those are listed as hazardous circumstances and thus need climb checks even if you have a climb speed.
I'm not James or Mr. Compton but the rule is clear.
Page 469 of the Core Rulebook has a chart which lists which properties can be applied to ranged weapons.
The footnote 2 says "2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."
If you look in the chart it lists a 2 next the following magical properties which according to the footnote 2 you are allowed to apply to Bows, crossbows and slings: Bane, Flaming, Frost, Merciful, Shock, Thundering, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Flaming Burst, Holy, Icy Burst, and Unholy.
Seeking is on the list but specifically omitted along with several other properties. So you can not apply them to a bow, crossbow, or sling.
Seeking has specifically and purposefully been left off that list.
It has also been left of the list in Ultimate Equipment on page 139, and all revisions of the Core Rulebook. So this is not an error, it is a deliberate decision.
You can apply your divine bond to ranged weapons such as a javelin and it would work, but you can not apply it to a bow and have it transfer the seeking quality to it's ammunition because it is specifically and purposefully left off the list of weapon properties you can apply to ammunition in all the reprints of the Core book and all other expansion books printed.
it was also not a dc 30 to disable device to open the locked door either. The party which i played in, we scored every success and did not fight one combat. Basically you have to engage every player to do there part in the searching of the rooms. There are beneficial cards which add to the possibly of successes... there are spells which pc's can cast to improve the percentages of success as well.
I for one am happy that a cerebel scenario exists, and can't be solved by smashing everything to bits.
I did not have mend or make whole as an oracle prepared. I had guidance, enhanced diplomacy and used them to good effect, but not other spells that would have aided as I am a healing/life oracle with healing focus.
There was a dc 30 disable device to get from big library to back set of rooms. The cards won't help that. I said we found all the texts in the main rooms, the problem is the hidden rooms at the end which we reach when we are already out of time, and making them hidden so that we wouldn't even expect their existence. Even if we would have found them we would not have had time to search them.
I have always applauded the concept of this cerebral module. I have problems with it's execution which make it the worst module I've every played and have made several suggests for its improvement. And technically we probably would have gotten more or all the reward had we instead smashed everything to bits instead of trying to maintain the time/stealth. Would be interesting to see how many points we would have scored that way as a thought exercise. I don't have the module to do this.
To pass this module you have to do the exact opposite of what you are told to do several times. Break doors, open a bookcase your told not to and destroy the book swarm, and risk a fight/breaking the construct.
That's not correct. Breaking the door is not the only option. Even if it was, preparing mending would allow you to do so and then cover up your tracks. Fighting the book swarm is not required. There is no reason to fight the construct.
This scenario requires alternate methods to succeed. Obviously your party didn't have enough of those alternatives to succeed.
A DC 30 disable device at tier 1-3 is extreme requiring low level party to break the door... some might not even be able to make a dc 25 strength check even on a 20 and won't get into the back section even if they try. Pathfinder Society is about NOT min maxing as they point out several places in the literature. So these checks are extreme and another example of poor writing.
That a module is not robust enough to require just the right skills/classes is in of itself an example of how it is poorly written as I believe another person pointed out earlier in the thread.
I have offered some possible adjustments previously that would make the module more robust and get around these short comings.
Edit to add... the bookcase with the swarm has one of the required books for getting a prestige point, if I remember right.
I'm also not sure what you mean by forcing Perception checks, as there is no mention of guards getting Perception checks due to PC spellcasting.
There is a note that spellcasting that makes a loud noise reduces the remaining clock by 1d6 minutes, but that's it. Unless you really like shatter I don't know what the fuss is about either.
I played, not GMed so I don't know the answer to this. The GM made checks every time we cast any spell to see if the guards heard.
edit to add:
The fuss is several of us are giving feedback that this module needs some revision and we find it to be a bad module.
Some people obviously liked it. Some of us did not. I am trying to give constructive feedback as to exactly what we did not like and some suggestions as to possible fixes.
The single mistake that cost you was not talking to the lion. Your diplomacy check would have gotten him to tell you exactly what you needed to know to go find that secret door and access what you needed to complete the scenario.
Agreed. And that makes this module capricious. If you don't think like the designer of the module you will likely fail the module.
Our logic was to avoid breaking things (as we were told to do) so we avoided engaging the security system construct. We figured engaging it would cause a fight leading to breakage.
To pass this module you have to do the exact opposite of what you are told to do several times. Break doors, open a bookcase your told not to and destroy the book swarm, and risk a fight/breaking the construct.
I highly disapprove of this mod. We followed orders and as a result were penalized to the extreme.
We could have gotten nearly full points had we decided to destroy everything, hide the bodies, and taken all the time we needed to fully search. Which is the exact opposite of what we were told to do.
I agree after James clarified the results. A single mistake cost the party the mission.
Two mistakes explained in spoiler:
spoiler:
1. Not talking to the lion construct - we did not talk to it because we did not want to fight/break it as we were warned in the beginning of mod.
2. Not searching EVERY room for a secret door - this is just bad writing to force a party to search for a secret door in every room to actually get credit for a module. Capricious.
And we almost didn't break the door down in the main library to find the final area with more rooms because of warning in beginning.
But even if we HAD found the secret rooms we literally did not have enough time to complete the module and we really didn't waste much time. So we would have chosen to leave the rooms and get back to avoid triggering the guard fight.
Also I take issue with forcing perception checks every time the players cast a spell. That is ridiculous. Might as well force the guards to make a perception check every time the party says anything. This is ridiculous. We were lucky and never triggered the guards and never had to fight them.
So much of this module is just screw the party over. This is absolutely the worst module I've run into in Pathfinder Society. Which is sad considering it could have been a very good one if it didn't set out to screw the party so badly in the ways I've explained.
I'm the GM, and I did not make that mistake. Only one of five had the right skills to make the checks without doing them untrained or at the -2 to -5 penalties.
Sounds like the dice were the deciding factor. With my party of four getting the adjustment, and rolling well over 20 in most cases, they easily found the clues with time to spare. Almost all the rooms were treated as small for them, allowing them to manage roughly 8 minutes a room save for the large library with the construct.
pianopraze wrote:
We got all the optional cards from searching all the non secret rooms. Searching all these rooms you skill can loose the module if you don't have time or don't think to search for the secret rooms...
We were totally out of time. We figured if we got all the cards in the non secret rooms we could win (we didn't know there were secret rooms with the texts we needed to win).
Not talking to the NPCs certainly robbed you of a better time. Of course, failing the diplomacy checks like you appear to have failed the search checks would have resulted in much the same thing. Hopefully you were able to take advantage of the halved time on successive searches.
I disagree as to the dice being deciding. Putting secrets where/when it was and making it be the deciding factor for getting almost 0 reward on the module is a bad design flaw in my opinion.
My charismatic oracle smoozed through every diplomacy check with ease, but we avoided what we considered an alarm system that would attack us. Making that a key to a module is also bad design in my opinion. We were just happy not to be attacked and avoided breaking/attacking anything we didn't have too as we were told in the beginning.
Another suggestion for the module would be to have that item talk to party, so the party is forced to engage with it and can get the points. I'm sure many will avoid it as we did to avoid a potential fight/breakage.
-Allow many more skills for finding the clue cards.
Sounds like your GM made the mistake of not allowing unlisted skills to be used. If you had made a good argument for a skill you should have been able to use it at a penalty.
Quote:
-Rearrange so you can at least get one prestige without finding secret rooms or interacting with lion construct. We got all the clue cards in the main rooms but still failed to get any prestige and very very little gold.
You got all the clue cards and didn't realize you didn't have what you came to get?
Quote:
-Have two tier of skill checks for 1-3 and 3-5.
What checks? There are different checks for different tiers.
We had two of us with Knowledge history, and two using skills at -5, and one player who could use no useful skills and had a -2 to int and wis.
The rest is answered in spoiler below:
spoiler:
We got all the optional cards from searching all the non secret rooms. Searching all these rooms you skill can loose the module if you don't have time or don't think to search for the secret rooms...
We were totally out of time. We figured if we got all the cards in the non secret rooms we could win (we didn't know there were secret rooms with the texts we needed to win).
I played this and felt it was a good idea implemented horribly.
I play a 14 int barbarian/alchemist level 2 human charatcer. So I had plenty of skills, but not one that could help. Honestly I could have said I follow the PCs left the table and added the same amount of addition to the party's success. Well I guess my knowledge local I rolled poorly on could have helped us find the library sooner for fluff reasons.
Any scenario that forces a player to watch I think is not worthy of any gaming system. Espcially PFS that does not want you screening adventures before you play them. What makes it worse is that it is a level 1 to 5 so a new player starting that game and saying. Hey you can watch other players play the game, but you will be worthless.
The 2 hour realtime limit I found was garbage as it rushes you to search rooms and elimate roleplay.
The best GMs and Scenarios give every player atleast one moment to shine. In 5-11 Library of the Lion, that breaks that rule without any regards.
To me there is no difference between a scenraio holding one player from playing, or a jerk player from killing everything before anyone else gets a chance.
I agree. This was a good idea horribly implemented to the point it was the worst module I have ever played. Or to quote DMFrank "It sucked".
spoiler:
We did very well finding clues in the rooms even though only 2 of 5 players had skills listed but we were so pressed for time we did not perception check each room for secret doors at the end (come on really, putting a secret door at the end pc's can easily overlook and might not have time for that can lead to total module failure???) . Due to the random and capricious nature of the design we did not get the primary and barely got secondary win conditions and very little Gold Even though we found all of the secondary clue cards and three of the primary clue cards.
I could go on and on, but I can not emphasize enough how much I dislike this module due to it's capricious nature. I do think it was a good idea, and a non-combat mod is very welcome. Just the implementation and randomization can lead to zero prestige and almost no gold despite otherwise doing well.
We didn't have a rogue and almost didn't break down the door (the intro box text warns you not to break anything) in the main library to get to the last few rooms (even if we had a dc 30 is too high for a 1-3 tier rogue). We avoided talking to the alarm system, i mean lion construct, as we didn't want to get in a fight with a construct and cause more breakage. So this cost us what 5??? points... enough that we barely got any reward for this mod. We would have been better off to have ransacked the room, killed the construct, killed the guards and took all the time we needed to search - the exact opposite of what we were told to do and followed, which lead to low reward.
Very poorly written mod, even though I like the concept.
I suggest following alterations:
-Say something about break things if you have to, but just don't let them find out you did it in the intro box text instead of emphasizing don't break anything.
-Allow many more skills for finding the clue cards. 3/5 party members hated this section because they really couldn't contribute.
-Warn party to search for secret rooms somehow. Drop some hints that we need to search every room or else we might totally fail to get gold and prestige.
-Rearrange so you can at least get one prestige without finding secret rooms or interacting with lion construct. We got all the clue cards in the main rooms but barely got 1 prestige and very very little gold. Never played a module that could screw you so badly if you didn't think like the module designer.
-Have two tier of skill checks for 1-3 and 3-5. We were low tier and the dc's were just too high for many things.
Such as if my ally is inside building and I am outside building?
This is definitely something that will have table variance. I could easily see a GM saying you still need line of effect and sight to effect the scarred ally. In effect having the Scar hex only extend the range beyond 30 ft or whatever limited range you have on the hex you want to use.
It seems to me by the intent of the hex it allows you to affect the Scarred individual even if you can't normally see/effect them. This is why I'm ask for a FAQ as I can also see possible "table variance" by different GMs.
I think RAI it means you can affect without line of effect/sight but RAW it could be taken that you can not affect them unless you can see/effect them.
4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ran into situation. Witch with Scar hex on party member. Does Scar count for having line of sight/effect even when I don't have line of sight or effect? Such as if my ally is inside building and I am outside building?
Spoiler:
Scar (Su): This hex curses a single target touched with horrible scars of the witch's choosing, whether something as simple as a single letter on the target's forehead or blotchy, burnlike scars on his body. The target may make a Will save to resist this hex. These scars do not interfere with the target's senses or prevent it from using abilities, but may affect social interactions. The witch can user her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells. They persist through disguises and shapechanging. The witch can withdraw this hex from a target as a move action at any range. The number of supernatural scars the witch can maintain at once is equal to her Intelligence bonus; once she reaches this limit, she must remove the scar from a current victim in order to mark another. Effects that remove curses can remove the scar.
Does Paizo make money off any of the licensees I buy on Herolab?
I have no idea. That doesn't fall under my job. If you want the answer to that question, ask in a different message board besides PFS.
Thank you for the polite reply.
I must assume Paizo does make money, or they would sue HeroLabs. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So If I buy a legal Paizo license to each of the books in HeroLab and use them to create my character, you are saying my legal license is not valid for playing in Pathfinder Society?
Hero Lab, or any other form of electronic character builder, is not a legal source to fulfill any of the above requirements. Electronic character builders are tools to assist participants in a more streamlined and efficient way to build a character.
Does Paizo get money when we buy a license of any or all of these in hero lab?
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