Retraining due to failure to own books


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

CigarSmoker wrote:

In response to OP:

I think you're going to lose loads of players. If you require every player at your table to own every book they use then you're probably going to lose 50-70% of the people playing society at your store.

People don't have the disposable income. Hell I know of a number of people selling their blood just to eat every week.

Think about that:
SELLING THEIR BLOOD JUST TO EAT.

No one doing that is going to waste money on a book when a basic need isn't met.

Maybe you should run some of the games as non-society *GASP* and let people play whatever they want. I'm thinking you might have more fun, even if you don't sell as many books.

Unless you're just all about the selling books. Then I guess keep doing what you're doing.

If a person doesn't have the basic needs (e.g., food), and are in such a state that they must sell blood or plasma just to eat, I doubt that playing Pathfinder is or should be a priority for him or her.

People are free to play non-Society games all they want, with whatever rules and options they want to include. Since this is about Pathfinder Society, your point here isn't germane. If players want to play in PFS, they must abide by the campaign rules. And if they don't want to buy every book, they can certainly make viable characters using only the Core Rulebook, which every player is assumed to own.


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Just regularly play with people that own the books.

PFS FAQ wrote:
If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement.

This is a rule I have seen 5 stars GMs break against players.

PFS FAQ .

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

BigNorseWolf wrote:

A full audit of every character at the table just isn't feasible. If you see enough books to make a fort or a kindle that takes three wireless drive to hold all the PDFs and scenarios just call it close enough to state work and go with it.

Maybe not, but if I'm shooting tangleshot arrows, throwing stunstones, or using my elixir of spirit sight to fight the ghost, I'm going to have my alchemy manual* and Serpent's Skull adventure path on the tablet. I expect anyone who uses weird stuff to do the same, and I have called ownership issues before. **

*

Spoiler:
I normally carry the dead tree alchemy manual, as it is so heavily used in my utility belt characters.

**

Spoiler:
in that case he was using the prd on his phone to check it, he showed me the "my downloads" page to show he had the PDF.

Dark Archive 5/5

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I started this thread over a year ago, so it's funny to see it pop back up now. I did work with a number of players to help them ease into character legality, buying a source at a time, and I'm happy to announce the transition went relatively smoothly. On the "encouraging physical sales" front, I also bought lockers for the store that people can rent to store their books and minis.

I sort of resent the "unless you're just all about selling books" comment. I try hard to support games I believe in, often at little return for the store, but at the end of the day I'm paying rent on my gaming space and I just can't shell out that sort of money to support players who aren't willing to support me.

I run PFS because episodic, structured campaigns are the only way a store can truly offer RPG events with open enrollment, but I have always been fine with people organizing their own games at my store. And I give people plenty of options for things to buy. I've been to stores that sell only the hardcover rulebooks but wonder why PFS isn't generating sales. I carry all the paperback books, a full complement of dice, all the flip-mats and map packs, other game mats, the fiction line, dice bags, tons and tons of minis (both new and used), and gaming aids like the Litko products and Pathfinder cards.

I run my store to support gamers. I don't appreciate the implication that wanting them to support me in return is somehow money-grubbing or wrong.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

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Benn Roe wrote:
I run my store to support gamers. I don't appreciate the implication that wanting them to support me in return is somehow money-grubbing or wrong.

Store owners are your primary partners in Organized Play. Yes, I know lots of groups play privately, but the stores are often where new people first find out about PFS. Stores give a very visible presence to PFS, and for someone new, it allows them to "peek in" at no risk or exposure before playing.

Store owners spend money to operate a business. From overhead to merchandise, it costs them money. It's not at all unreasonable to expect that people who use their space will help contribute to it - by purchasing gaming supplies, books, etc.

We are fortunate in our area to have some great partners in store owners - they give us lots of space and, generally, flexibility (days, number of tables, etc.) for use for PFS play. Enforcing the PFS requirement to own those books is not only consistent in support PFS itself, but it also helps to support our store owners who support us.

And, if a player says, "I can't afford that book!" then I tell them to either buy the .pdf or to stick with the Core Rulebook.

I support our store owner partners. Without them, we not only have fewer places to play, we have less visibility for attracting and recruiting new players.


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It is silly to call a store owner "money-grubbing" . You spend your time and invest a great deal. This is your job and livlihood.

That is like going to a gamers place of work and calling them money grubbing because they will nto give you services for free.

1/5

The PDFs of hardbacks are $10. $10! I don't see what else Paizo could do to lower the cost of ownership aside from giving them away. There is really no excuse for NOT buying them if you choose to use the material.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

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Mark Stratton wrote:
CigarSmoker wrote:

In response to OP:

I think you're going to lose loads of players. If you require every player at your table to own every book they use then you're probably going to lose 50-70% of the people playing society at your store.

People don't have the disposable income. Hell I know of a number of people selling their blood just to eat every week.

Think about that:
SELLING THEIR BLOOD JUST TO EAT.

No one doing that is going to waste money on a book when a basic need isn't met.

Maybe you should run some of the games as non-society *GASP* and let people play whatever they want. I'm thinking you might have more fun, even if you don't sell as many books.

Unless you're just all about the selling books. Then I guess keep doing what you're doing.

If a person doesn't have the basic needs (e.g., food), and are in such a state that they must sell blood or plasma just to eat, I doubt that playing Pathfinder is or should be a priority for him or her.

People are free to play non-Society games all they want, with whatever rules and options they want to include. Since this is about Pathfinder Society, your point here isn't germane. If players want to play in PFS, they must abide by the campaign rules. And if they don't want to buy every book, they can certainly make viable characters using only the Core Rulebook, which every player is assumed to own.

I really, *really* try to avoid getting involved in posts like this...

But Mark, dude, please take a step back and seriously re-read what you just wrote. That's the rhetoric of someone I wouldn't want playing the same game that I am, to be frank. If someone is struggling for basic needs, what do you think their social life is like? Maybe playing Pathfinder is their (possibly only) escape from a world where they need to sell their plasma to live. If they want to play in PFS for the social interaction with more than just a home-game sized crowd, that's awesome for them.

Around here, you know how we tackle book/resource ownership? We make sure to (repeatedly) inform new players and remind regular players that they need to own the additional resources they use in PFS play (and that hero lab doesn't count). Do we pull them aside and audit them? How is that anything remotely close to the "fun" we're supposed to be promoting in PFS, whether as "just" a gaming organization or as an outreach campaign for Paizo products (we're somewhere in the middle, IMHO). No - we tell our GMs to ask for the additional resource if they ever hear an item/feat/etc that they don't recognize, and then the burden is on the player to show-not-tell.

Call it the honor system, call it what you will, but if someone walks in the door to one of our events and is in a bad place, we don't tell them "well, to play in our campaign, you need to be better off financially, or just stick to the basics until you can afford better." We smile, shake their hand, welcome them to the lodge, and start geeking-out and gaming with them.

Throwing the book (figuratively) at someone is supposed to be reserved for someone who breaks the rules, not new arrivals who might be turned off or driven away (followed by bad-mouthing, possibly) from PFS.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

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...Hell, if someone like that comes and wants to play, and is brave enough to tell us what they're dealing with, I'll buy them a few .pdfs. If your reaction to someone like this coming to PFS is "well, they shouldn't play anything non-core until they can afford to", you're obviously in a secure enough of a place that you can pay it forward a little, can't you?

/rant

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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I have been known to gift people PDFs when they mention being unable to purchase the item themselves.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

For the record, Mike, I don't audit a character unless the player gives me a reason to. I typically take the approach that, "the players are complying with the rules unless they do or say something to indicate to me they may not be." I would never tell GMs at my stores that they should just audit away - my approach is similar to yours.

And nothing in your post refutes one of the points I made: if someone doesn't have the money to buy the books, and still wants to play PFS, they can - they can limit themselves to the CRB, right? If a player says, "I don't have the money for all that stuff, what can I do?" I would happily say, "well, the CRB is an option for now, because, under the PFS rules, X, Y, Z would be required, which you don't have." Who knows? Maybe down the road they could get one of the other books, or someone would give them a copy? The basic fact remains that, no matter how badly one needs social interaction, food comes first (I'll refer to you and others to Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, if necessary.) I didn't say they shouldn't play PFS, or that they couldn't - I said that "...I doubt that Pathfinder is or should be a priority for them." Now, you can certainly read that however you choose, I suppose, but the statement speaks for itself.

If you don't want to play at a table with me, that's certainly your choice - I am certain you aren't first, and I doubt you'll be the last - but it's clear to me that you have either skipped reading parts of my post, or just chose to ignore what I wrote. Either way, that choice remains yours. Perhaps, as a bit of friendly advice, you should "...take a step back and seriously re-read what [I]...wrote."

I would also suggest, Mike, that since you and I have never met, I don't think, I highly doubt that you have the first inkling of what I do for people who struggle to put food on the table, or a roof over their heads. So, as politely as I can request, please, don't impugn my character. You don't know me, or the first thing about me.


Finlanderboy wrote:

Just regularly play with people that own the books.

PFS FAQ wrote:
If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement.

This is a rule I have seen 5 stars GMs break against players.

PFS FAQ .

Do they honestly expect people to haul libraries worth of physical books to conventions? Or maybe they expect them to pay a second time for the digital format of all of their physical books? I imagine air fair is going to get pretty expensive with hundreds of pounds of books.

I have to admit that it puzzles me why Paizo intentionally gives people so many reasons not to play. I would think that the more people you could draw in the, the greater the chance you would sell more product and the greater the profit you would generate. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt it.

Telling people they can't photocopy a few pages out of a book they bought because someone might use it to cheat the system. Paizo is essentially stating that they believe everyone to be dishonest. What bothers me even more is that I see them attempting to extract double payment on their IP (physical book + PDF) as a shady practice. Maybe that's why they assume everyone is trying to rip them off.

That's exactly the kind of company I want to support... (that was sarcasm, which doesn't always translate well in text).

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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trik wrote:
Do they honestly expect people to haul libraries worth of physical books to conventions? Or maybe they expect them to pay a second time for the digital format of all of their physical books? I imagine air fair is going to get pretty expensive with hundreds of pounds of books.

Yes, that is the policy. Players have to make the choice that works for them. Either take up weight lifting to carry their hardcovers, or invest in the digital versions of their Paizo products, or just use the core rulebook.

trik wrote:
That's exactly the kind of company I want to support... (that was sarcasm, which doesn't always translate well in text).

Then don't. No one is forcing you to buy their product.


trik wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:

Just regularly play with people that own the books.

PFS FAQ wrote:
If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement.

This is a rule I have seen 5 stars GMs break against players.

PFS FAQ .

Do they honestly expect people to haul libraries worth of physical books to conventions? Or maybe they expect them to pay a second time for the digital format of all of their physical books? I imagine air fair is going to get pretty expensive with hundreds of pounds of books.

I have to admit that it puzzles me why Paizo intentionally gives people so many reasons not to play. I would think that the more people you could draw in the, the greater the chance you would sell more product and the greater the profit you would generate. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt it.

Telling people they can't photocopy a few pages out of a book they bought because someone might use it to cheat the system. Paizo is essentially stating that they believe everyone to be dishonest. That's exactly the kind of company I want to support... (that was sarcasm, which doesn't always translate well in text).

I have almost every hardcover book and tons of splat books.

I bring them and my minis to everygame and convention. I try to attend a convention every other month.

It is not that difficult. If you have the pdfs they fit on any electronic device.

Plus if you have friends you play with split the books to bring among them.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

In practice this tends to be much more sensibly done than on paper.

"Why is there a donkey parked out front?"

"Couldn't get the mule up the steps with all my books so i made two trips."

1/5

I buy the hardbacks in PDF, then just print the bits I use and throw them into my character binder. The only hardbacks I carry with me to PFS are the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and the APG, and my @!#$@# bag already weights 40lbs with said binder, dice, maps, minis/tokens, dry erase pens, pencils, paper, condition cards, etc., etc., etc. Any more and I'd need to buy a rolling suitcase just for PFS.

4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
CigarSmoker wrote:

In response to OP:

I think you're going to lose loads of players. If you require every player at your table to own every book they use then you're probably going to lose 50-70% of the people playing society at your store.

The store in the OP lost one player due to not wanting to buy books, and that player not being willing to play core rulebook characters. That comes out to roughly 0% to 1% of the total players that have played at that store since this post was made.

I can only assume that you don't have much experience with PFS to have numbers that far off from the actual results.

I also have to say that the negative connotations of your post about what Benn is running PFS for is so far from the truth that it really is offensive. He does so much for PFS and gamers in Philadelphia, many of which buy pdf's and not books from him, and gives them a place to play that is friendly, comfortable, and filled with positive experiences.

I couldn't ask for a better store owner/coordinator.

Grand Lodge

I am responding to a discussion I saw re. people not having the books and not being legal then to play certain characters, etc. etc.

I have had two full sets of books stolen from me- several thousands of dollars worth of collection- twice I have lost everything. I have been without a job now for nearly a year; so my gaming once a week at my local store is my only real available, CHEAP, social 'outlet' that is where I meet and interact with other geeks. Oh, I mean great people with the same interests as me. :)

I took some money I earned from working for a day for a guy who plays in our groups here in town, and I bought a PDF so I would own a book, to try to start up getting them, to be 'legal'. And I always feel BAD when I leave the store that sells soda, to go use my food stamp card to buy something to drink instead of 'supporting the store'. But I simply cannot blow money like a lot of people can who come to play-- Does that make me less than them? Do I have to stop coming out?

Maybe the stores could offer 'lay-away' plans worked out with GM's who run at those stores all the time, and the players who WANT to get a good book, to be legal, but cannot plop down $30-40 bucks in a day just to play a game. Face it, the core is BORING. You don't get squat, and lots of times you die if you aren't BUFFED outt'a some other, weird book. Maybe the store would let the player put money down when/as they can, and if the player is/has a plan going, then they can in the meantime 'use that resource', until the book is finally paid off and really in their possession for real.

Just because my life sucks, and I'm poor as crap, don't punish me by not letting me participate in the really fun things about PFS 'just because I don't have the money you do' to blow on all these cool supplements... Coming out to play and telling friends about what I do is word-of-mouth advertising for PFS in general and Paizo as the main supplier... that's the best I can do right now. Thanks for reading this.
ch

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Cary's Anok wrote:
But I simply cannot blow money like a lot of people can who come to play-- Does that make me less than them? Do I have to stop coming out?

Absolutely not. Store owners and event coordinators are not soulless machines, uncaring of your individual situation. I have donated my previous printings to people who have lost their collections to fire or theft. I have gifted PDFs to people who cannot purchase them with their own funds. I have allowed players to share books, as long as there is a book at the table.

That still doesn't change what the rules of the campaign are, and if you purposefully choose not to follow them, we have to ask you to leave.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cary's Anok wrote:
But I simply cannot blow money like a lot of people can who come to play-- Does that make me less than them? Do I have to stop coming out?

Absolutely not. Store owners and event coordinators are not soulless machines, uncaring of your individual situation. I have donated my previous printing books to people who have lost their collections to fire or theft. I have gifted PDFs to people who cannot purchase them with their own funds. I have allowed players to share books, as long as there is a book at the table.

That still doesn't change what the rules of the campaign are, and if you purposefully choose not to follow them, we have to ask you to leave.

And here is why I [underlined] don't really care to get into post discussions like this, either.... ... Wow- what a sh***ty way to put your opinion. .... My post said nothing about 'purposefully choos[ing] 'not to follow' [them]". I said I cannot afford to buy all the supplements. My social interaction with people on this planet is not going to be determined, however, by 'what I can buy'. I still enjoy the group. But if you ran or were in MY group, I probably wouldn't like you: how 'bout you phrase that "If you can't buy the books or pdf's even, then your character would not be legal for play and [italics] you probably wouldn't get to play it [end italics] ... if the GM follows the rules. Instead- you write "We have to ask you to leave". Sure hope you're a store owner- 'cause that's the only person who's going to 'kick me out' of somewhere, legally. You can't kick me out of a group just because I don't have books to play a character from- you CAN tell me that it "is not legal" and '[sic] I have to play a pre-gen or stick with core'. Your comment sounded pretty elitist, dude- I said nothing about WILLFULLY not following guidelines, did I? I wonder... how many people HAVE left your groups you've been in....? The common denominator would be...? oh- that would be YOU. Sorry- that's an assumption, but your last phrase says it all, far as I'm concerned. Where do you play- so I know where 'I'm not welcome'..?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Cary's Anok wrote:
And here is why I [underlined] don't really care to get into post discussions like this, either.... ... Wow- what a sh***ty way to put your opinion. .... My post said nothing about 'purposefully choos[ing] 'not to follow' [them]".

If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, kick it to the curb.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cary's Anok wrote:
And here is why I [underlined] don't really care to get into post discussions like this, either.... ... Wow- what a sh***ty way to put your opinion. .... My post said nothing about 'purposefully choos[ing] 'not to follow' [them]".
If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, kick it to the curb.

"kick. kick. " ow! "kick".

(When i get the money, I'll buy shoes, first).

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Cary's Anok wrote:
how 'bout you phrase that "If you can't buy the books or pdf's even, then your character would not be legal for play and [italics] you probably wouldn't get to play it [end italics]

Then you would be following the rules of the campaign, and there would be no problems.

The shoe would not fit.

Cary's Anok wrote:
You can't kick me out of a group just because I don't have books to play a character from

As event coordinator, if you refuse to play a legal character, I absolutely can kick you out of a PFS game.


Cary's Anok wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cary's Anok wrote:
But I simply cannot blow money like a lot of people can who come to play-- Does that make me less than them? Do I have to stop coming out?

Absolutely not. Store owners and event coordinators are not soulless machines, uncaring of your individual situation. I have donated my previous printing books to people who have lost their collections to fire or theft. I have gifted PDFs to people who cannot purchase them with their own funds. I have allowed players to share books, as long as there is a book at the table.

That still doesn't change what the rules of the campaign are, and if you purposefully choose not to follow them, we have to ask you to leave.

And here is why I [underlined] don't really care to get into post discussions like this, either.... ... Wow- what a sh***ty way to put your opinion. .... My post said nothing about 'purposefully choos[ing] 'not to follow' [them]". I said I cannot afford to buy all the supplements. My social interaction with people on this planet is not going to be determined, however, by 'what I can buy'. I still enjoy the group. But if you ran or were in MY group, I probably wouldn't like you: how 'bout you phrase that "If you can't buy the books or pdf's even, then your character would not be legal for play and [italics] you probably wouldn't get to play it [end italics] ... if the GM follows the rules. Instead- you write "We have to ask you to leave". Sure hope you're a store owner- 'cause that's the only person who's going to 'kick me out' of somewhere, legally. You can't kick me out of a group just because I don't have books to play a character from- you CAN tell me that it "is not legal" and '[sic] I have to play a pre-gen or stick with core'. Your comment sounded pretty elitist, dude- I said nothing about WILLFULLY not following guidelines, did I? I wonder... how many people HAVE left your groups you've been in....? The common denominator would be...? oh- that would be YOU. Sorry- that's an assumption,...

The quotation was not spcifically pointed at you. Just people that "purposefully choose not to follow".

The answers on here are nto always geared towards one person, but the community as a whole.

If a player purposely cheats and makes thigns difficult , then yes an organizer would want you gone from teh environment.

TOZ did not say "you purposely" he said if you. and by you he meant it a plural form for everyone that plans to break those rules.

You are over reacting to a broad statement to people that he replied for clarity.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Cary's Anok wrote:

"kick. kick. " ow! "kick".

(When i get the money, I'll buy shoes, first).

I don't think you understand the metaphor.

If it doesn't apply to you, then I'm not talking about you.

Edit: Finlanderboy is correct.

5/5

Just have to say that for me personally, Core-only is just fine. I've been playing 3rd since 2000, and Pathfinder since the Alpha, and I'm still very entertained with characters that are straight out of the core rulebook, and the majority of what I play is precisely that, despite owning almost every possible resource. But maybe I'm boring.

5/5

Majuba wrote:
Just have to say that for me personally, Core-only is just fine.

I haven't been Core-only since I bought HeroLab. Too many shiny distractions. :(

Majuba wrote:
But maybe I'm boring.

I'd say 'disciplined' instead.


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This discussion brings up a question... where does the perception that one needs non-Core material to participate come from? When did Additional Resources turn into Required Resources?

-Matt

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

When people decided that Core resources weren't enough to make sure their characters survived the harder scenarios.

There is a definite creep in power from certain options, that make it easier to survive. I don't know that you CAN'T survive with just core-only options. But things like First Aid Gloves and the Snowball spell certainly change the balance point of the game.

Grand Lodge

Cary's Anok wrote:
Maybe the stores could offer 'lay-away' plans worked out with GM's who run at those stores all the time, and the players who WANT to get a good book, to be legal, but cannot plop down $30-40 bucks in a day just to play a game.

This is a good suggestion, but not one that is necessarily right for this conversation. That's something more of a store-by-store basis, and something youd need to discuss with them specifically. Paizo cant force the retailer to offer layaway, though Id imagine some stores would do it.

Grand Lodge

TOZ wrote:
Cary's Anok wrote:

"kick. kick. " ow! "kick".

(When i get the money, I'll buy shoes, first).

I don't think you understand the metaphor.

If it doesn't apply to you, then I'm not talking about you.

Edit: Finlanderboy is correct.

I live in America; English is my first language. The metaphor came after the orginal replying comment. The comment was a reply to MY post; I would assume that the posted reply was relevant to/addressed my first posting/inquiry. Therefore, posting 'a non-fitting shoe' reply was not responding to ME, MY post. Thank you for trying to soothe it a bit, but when I posted an idea, and a reaffirmation of MY situation and get a response back of/re. people 'willfully' doing something- which is not what I posted- then yes, I will take that comment personally to have meant that person is such that he/she/it would turn to someone and say 'we're going to kick you out'. That was poorly phrased and did not address either the personal situation as posited- not being able to afford them- nor did it address the suggestion of a layaway with a store that a GM would allow usage of the reference even tho' the book has not been ... redeemed is a pawn shop- what would it be if the book isn't 'bought' yet/in possession...? But maybe a GM would work with a store/have an arrangement, so that resource would count... ... was my input. That guy who responded just said 'we will ask you to leave'. Very poorly put, when my post said nothing about willfullness. Yes, semantics sometimes ARE important.

1/5

Cary:

Do you have the Core Rule book? If so, you can play PFS as much as you want, you just choose to avoid supplementary material. I won't argue that you won't be behind the power curve -- which I personally dislike -- but you would in no way be excluded.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

I'm sorry Cary, I'm having trouble parsing your responses. Hence why I have been taking individual sentences and responding to them, and them alone.

Also, on an unrelated note I was amazed at the number of PFS characters you have registered. I would have trouble keeping track of them all, and commend you for that.

Grand Lodge

Seth Gipson wrote:
Cary's Anok wrote:
Maybe the stores could offer 'lay-away' plans worked out with GM's who run at those stores all the time, and the players who WANT to get a good book, to be legal, but cannot plop down $30-40 bucks in a day just to play a game.
This is a good suggestion, but not one that is necessarily right for this conversation. That's something more of a store-by-store basis, and something youd need to discuss with them specifically. Paizo cant force the retailer to offer layaway, though Id imagine some stores would do it.

Yeah, I know it'd be store-to-/by store.... and dependent on how your GM is. [Prob. that other guy would just ask you to leave....]--- But it's a good idea to put out there for people to think about. This thread I found was initially titled 're-training due to not having books' and most of the postings veered to a debate about people not having them, with one faction of 'people can't afford them/selling blood to eat' vs. the 'too bad, people shouldn't be playing games if things are that bad/we'll just ask you to leave', it seems. My suggestion is something I've never seen put out before, where a player could be buying the book, but on layaway so to speak--- but re.this site--- where a GM/Venture Captain of the area would allow that process to help those of us who WANT to play, [and want the shinies], but really are having a bad economic trend at the moment..... Thanks for the reply, Seth!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

PFS is like any other collectable-based game. If you couldn't afford the latest $250 trading card for your trading card game of choice, were you banned from the tournament? No. You played with common cards, or traded with a friend, or came up with a cool deck using what you could afford. Nobody's looking down on you just because you don't own the Advanced Class Guide or People of the Stars.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Cary's Anok wrote:
That guy who responded just said 'we will ask you to leave'. Very poorly put, when my post said nothing about willfullness. Yes, semantics sometimes ARE important.

I should point out to you, that I am that guy.

Alias-switching is kind of a running gag with me.

Grand Lodge

bugleyman wrote:

Cary:

Do you have the Core Rule book? If so, you can play PFS as much as you want, you just choose to avoid supplementary material. I won't argue that you won't be behind the power curve -- which I personally dislike -- but you would in no way be excluded.

No. But the Core is assumed in PFS. I do have the free PDF downloads of the new Guide to Organized Play (6.0), and the Character Trais Web Enhancement; the PDF I bought was Dragon Empire's Primer as it has a lot of traits, also. Yeah- that was just a dig, there- there are so many players in our group that have all these crazy things going on... 1d10+26 to hit, e.g.- that a lot of the GM's are ... not really changing things around- but, when you're with a party of that and you are only 'Core' stats or abilities, you can get eaten up pretty quick, because the scenario is then not played as .... friendly? With the GM responding to the killers in the party with the scenario strategies possible- meaning, choosing the most lethal right off the bat, etc.

Anyway, in response to:

"Also, on an unrelated note I was amazed at the number of PFS characters you have registered. I would have trouble keeping track of them all, and commend you for that."---

ha. yeah- and most are 'illegal'. People at the table usually have what I need but there is one GM who has flatly refused unless I have it... so those last 6 or so are now all "PFS Legal" ones using just Core Assumption and what I have personally. I have been playing D&D since 1976; I spent 10 years or so just doing character and NPC generation for a world when I didn't have a group to run; So, finding PFS, I played with all the variations of stuff available- I especially use traits with Class to build character 'story', but I am still amazed at what obscure things groupmembers are pulling out of these books--- like a 32 AC at level 8, e.g.---- which is why I feel it's slanted, somewhat, if you can't 'participate' in all the neat gadget-y characters... But me personally, I am trying to get up a core of Core, and am weaning to them, only, in future- to be legal EVERYwhere. Thanks everyone for input.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Benn Roe wrote:

I started this thread over a year ago, so it's funny to see it pop back up now. I did work with a number of players to help them ease into character legality, buying a source at a time, and I'm happy to announce the transition went relatively smoothly. On the "encouraging physical sales" front, I also bought lockers for the store that people can rent to store their books and minis.

I sort of resent the "unless you're just all about selling books" comment. I try hard to support games I believe in, often at little return for the store, but at the end of the day I'm paying rent on my gaming space and I just can't shell out that sort of money to support players who aren't willing to support me.

I run PFS because episodic, structured campaigns are the only way a store can truly offer RPG events with open enrollment, but I have always been fine with people organizing their own games at my store. And I give people plenty of options for things to buy. I've been to stores that sell only the hardcover rulebooks but wonder why PFS isn't generating sales. I carry all the paperback books, a full complement of dice, all the flip-mats and map packs, other game mats, the fiction line, dice bags, tons and tons of minis (both new and used), and gaming aids like the Litko products and Pathfinder cards.

I run my store to support gamers. I don't appreciate the implication that wanting them to support me in return is somehow money-grubbing or wrong.

As someone supported his gaming store (well it closed because of sale unrelated issues) I find it inconceivable not to support a store that offers this kind of service (and even then there were plenty, mostly mtg players, but even most of them bought the occasional sleves and singles)

Having the whole contingent of pathfinder products on sales is definitely a winner in my book, especially flip mats and map packs seem like an ideal product (I might not decide that I need a particular map, until I see it in the store).

1/5

Cary's Anok wrote:

No. But the Core is assumed in PFS. I do have the free PDF downloads of the new Guide to Organized Play (6.0), and the Character Trais Web Enhancement; the PDF I bought was Dragon Empire's Primer as it has a lot of traits, also. Yeah- that was just a dig, there- there are so many players in our group that have all these crazy things going on... 1d10+26 to hit, e.g.- that a lot of the GM's are ... not really changing things around- but, when you're with a party of that and you are only 'Core' stats or abilities, you can get eaten up pretty quick, because the scenario is then not played as .... friendly? With the GM responding to the killers in the party with the scenario strategies possible- meaning, choosing the most lethal right off the bat, etc.

Anyway, in response to:

"Also, on an unrelated note I was amazed at the number of PFS characters you have registered. I would have trouble keeping track of them all, and commend you for that."---

ha. yeah- and most are 'illegal'. People at the table usually have what I need but there is one GM who has flatly refused unless I have it... so those last 6 or so are now all "PFS Legal" ones using just Core Assumption and what I have personally. I have been playing D&D since 1976; I spent 10 years or so just doing character and NPC generation for a world when I didn't have a group to run; So, finding PFS, I played with all the variations of stuff available- I especially use traits with Class to build character 'story', but I am still amazed at what obscure things groupmembers are pulling out of these books--- like a 32 AC at level 8, e.g.---- which is why I feel it's slanted, somewhat, if you can't 'participate' in all the neat gadget-y characters... But me personally, I am...

The core *is* assumed. As in, you're assumed to already own it. Thankfully, you now own a copy in PDF, and can play PFS for as long as you want...just avoid taking non-core options from resources that you don't own. For a perfectly viable PFS character that is core-only, I'd suggest a power-attacking barbarian. ;)

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

You don't actually need to have the core rulebook to play

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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Mike Bramnik wrote:

...Hell, if someone like that comes and wants to play, and is brave enough to tell us what they're dealing with, I'll buy them a few .pdfs. If your reaction to someone like this coming to PFS is "well, they shouldn't play anything non-core until they can afford to", you're obviously in a secure enough of a place that you can pay it forward a little, can't you?

/rant

From where I am sitting there are two sides to the issue:

-Players who do have the money, but are unwilling to support the hobby. If someone comes to a game with expensive desinger clothing, and drinks two cans of a brand energy drink, and eats snack to excess, chances are that he deserves a bit of a stern talk (particularly if he often has to borrow books from other players on the table).
The pdf of a CRB cost less than 3 packs of MTG cards, and frankly even 50-60 $ are an insignificant amount of money when it comes to that particular game and many others.
Now I don't mind if a player like this, is unwilling to spend money right away, but there comes a point where it becomes unreasonable.

-Players with financial struggles. They exist, frankly I never noticed it before, but I like to think that we are a charitable bunch. I don't mind sharing dice or books if someone has a really hard time.
To paraphrase Yahtzee in his Sim City review: "Poor people, why would they want to play a god game?"

Especially when your real life is hard, it is nice to find a way to escape that situation, if only for a little bit.
We are in the very fortunate situation, that hour hobby doesn't require much more than a pen, a bit of paper, and when it comes down to it 3 dice (d20, d12 and d8 those can simulate all the others). Of course these days we have all those wonderful ways to make it better, but I think we should not forget to leverage this strength of the medium.

---

Now when it comes to both groups, I think it is worth mentioning the idea or piracy that I subscribe to:
The first Idea is that piracy is a service problem, about ten years ago you couldn't get legal pdfs, so they were pirated by those who wanted them, no two ways about it. Now pathfinder, makes the CRB and those rules heavy books UC, UM... very affordable, and offers the material online, for free. I think we are golden on that front.

The other idea is to not see the pirat as an enemy, but as a potential customer. Sure plenty of young and or poor people won't be able to purchase your products right now, but they might be able to purchase product in the future.
I suspect, this is one reason, why the CRB sales are reportedly still rising, and it is worth mentioning that many gamers tend to go for the premium option, if it is offered (sure I could always use the SRD, but that leather bound CRB looks amazing).

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

trik wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:

Just regularly play with people that own the books.

PFS FAQ wrote:
If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement.

This is a rule I have seen 5 stars GMs break against players.

PFS FAQ .

Do they honestly expect people to haul libraries worth of physical books to conventions? Or maybe they expect them to pay a second time for the digital format of all of their physical books? I imagine air fair is going to get pretty expensive with hundreds of pounds of books.

I have to admit that it puzzles me why Paizo intentionally gives people so many reasons not to play. I would think that the more people you could draw in the, the greater the chance you would sell more product and the greater the profit you would generate. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt it.

Telling people they can't photocopy a few pages out of a book they bought because someone might use it to cheat the system. Paizo is essentially stating that they believe everyone to be dishonest. What bothers me even more is that I see them attempting to extract double payment on their IP (physical book + PDF) as a shady practice. Maybe that's why they assume everyone is trying to rip them off.

That's exactly the kind of company I want to support... (that was sarcasm, which doesn't always translate well in text).

I feel your pain, as an european subscriptions are very expensive, and if have bought pdfs and print products separately before (it might even be cheaper than buying from paizo, especially when it comes to hardcovers).

At this point, I have yet to find a workable solution that works for everybody. Printing download codes into the books, sounds nice, but it has its own downsides.

I think, that his problem will be solved by technology in a couple of years.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You don't actually need to have the core rulebook to play

You don't have to have it with you at the table, but you are expected to own a copy

And, in case there was still any room for doubt, this post, endorsed by Mike Brock in the immediately following post, should make it pretty clear that you have to own any books you use.

Grand Lodge

I'm a little slow on the uptake, sometimes-

Thank you, sir! (or ma'am)

ch

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a post and reply. Please use your best judgment when divulging personal details on our forums. Also, just a kind reminder to be cool to each other, thanks!

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Captain, Colorado—Colorado Springs

In my own case, I make a point of buying a copy of the .pdf version of the books when I buy the actual book. I love reading the book, and I find it much easier to bring a copy of the .pdf on my tablet with me to events than haul around a small library. (Luckily, I'm in a financial position where I can do this...)

When I GM and I hear one of my players using a spell/feat/ability/etc. that I am unfamiliar with, I will ask them to see the reference and if they can't produce it, I will remind them that they need to bring it with them to society events. Then I will take their word for it and ask them to bring it next time. (Which they do...)

I am the Store Coordinator for our events, so I also deal with all of the new players that come to our events. For new players, when I hand them a copy of their PFS card, I also give them a letter for newcomers which tells them to go to the Paizo web site to register their number and that they need a copy of the Core Rule Book to keep playing in society play.

I've never had to turn a player away because they didn't own a book, I simply give them a gentle reminder that it is a requirement in Society play and that there are some people out there that strictly enforce it. Most people will go ahead and take care of it given time.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Cary's Anok wrote:

I'm a little slow on the uptake, sometimes-

Thank you, sir! (or ma'am)

ch

This might sound terrible, and I apologize in advance, but maybe you could ask other players in your region, if they still need their physical books. Some might be persuades to part with them for a very low cost, or for free (especially if you explain your situation).

When I still purchased anything other than the adventure path (can't justify the shipping cost for physical products at the moment, as I hardly touch the books), I usually used the dead tree version for the first read ... and then it stands with the other books.

Gamers are a pretty sociable bunch, it my leave a bad taste in your mouth, but you could be surprised.

And actually I get the general feeling of unease when you have a sub par character, not having access to some items could be quite a difference in certain scenarios (my run of bonekeep 3 started with the other players scaring a heroes feast with antipalgue/antitoxin and using alchemical grease..).

And to defend TOZ a bit, sometimes you really have to enforce the rules. I realize that it should be a decision of the GM/organizer on how hard he wants to enforce the rules, since he has to deal with the fallout - and remember, a GM doesn't have to own any books. Even if you could not support the game in another way, offering to GM could be just the way to support PFS.

If you do not enforce a rule, it is basically useless, and I suspect, that a player is more likely to get checked if he uses material from 27 sources, or uses some rather cheesy combinations (like Wayang Spellhunter (sp?) and the other trait that lowers metamagic increases). You can create plenty of interesting characters with CRB APG UM and ACG.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

CA, this also may, at present, be a bit past your means (based on what you posted earlier), but do you have a Half-Price Books near you? I find all kinds of gaming books, including Pathfinder, there. If you're looking for a specific book, you might be able to make do with that. The cost won't be as low as a .pdf, but you might find it reasonable just the same.

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