Retraining due to failure to own books


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Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Phillip Willis wrote:
Quote:
But we aren't talking about NEW players tho. We are talking about established players with a library of hundreds of dollars. To say that you can't use what you paid for as the official stance just does not sit well with me. Yes, that is the official rule...that does not mean we can't have a discussion about if there isn't a better way to do it NOW...6 years after said rule was written. Rules can change. The campaign heads change the rules ALL the time. Redward's GM signs off seems like a great idea to me and at the least warrants further discussion no? You don't even need fancy sheets. You can have a GM just sign, date and PFS number the photocopy after they vouch for the real book.

Sure. We can have a discussion. Having played this for some time now, I've given this a lot of thought. Paizo doesn't want people using illegal copies at their official, organized game events. Understandable. One cannot validate a photocopy as legal because it has no water mark. It's really that simple. And because its simple, I'm not sure where a lot of wiggle room exists.

There is PLENTY of wiggle room that I see as we are discussing this further. Now if that is acceptable or not to the campaign heads is a different matter...and they are purview to thing we are not. But I do like the discussion aspect...even if I really don't have much in the way of good ideas ATM :P .

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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That's awesome support, Mr. Fox. I thank you and commend you for your efforts in PFS. I've also been looking for a VC in Philadelphia for almost 2 years. You should apply. If chosen, you would receive all PDFs free and your biggest problem is solved. Email me if interested.

4/5

Michael Brock wrote:
That's awesome support, Mr. Fox. I thank you and commend you for your efforts in PFS. I've also been looking for a VC in Philadelphia for almost 2 years. You should apply. If chosen, you would receive all PDFs free and your biggest problem is solved. Email me if interested.

I don't drive which would make it too hard to perform the required duties of a Venture Captain, plus traveling to Gen Con or Paizo Con is a bit out of my means when it comes to time off. But thank you for the offer. I'm surprised no one in Philly has tried to become the VC yet though.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Jeffrey Fox wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
That's awesome support, Mr. Fox. I thank you and commend you for your efforts in PFS. I've also been looking for a VC in Philadelphia for almost 2 years. You should apply. If chosen, you would receive all PDFs free and your biggest problem is solved. Email me if interested.
I don't drive which would make it too hard to perform the required duties of a Venture Captain, plus traveling to Gen Con or Paizo Con is a bit out of my means when it comes to time off. But thank you for the offer. I'm surprised no one in Philly has tried to become the VC yet though.

There have been a couple of applications, and while they had their own strengths, there was always something that was a disqualifier.

I've sent you an email.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Frankfort

Michael Brock wrote:
Hero Lab, or any other form of electronic character builder, is not a legal source to fulfill any of the above requirements. Electronic character builders are tools to assist participants in a more streamlined and efficient way to build a character.

Does Paizo get money when we buy a license of any or all of these in hero lab?

"Core Packages

The Advanced Player's Guide contains the new classes, alternate racial traits, archetypes, feats, spells, and more from the Advanced Player's Guide. ($9.99)
The Advanced Race Guide contains the new alternate racial traits, favored class bonuses, archetypes, feats, spells, equipment, and more from the Advanced Race Guide. ($9.99)
New! Ultimate Campaign includes material from the Ultimate Campaign supplement, except Kingdoms, and material from the Downtime chapter (both of which will be released later as a free update to this package). ($9.99)
Ultimate Combat includes new classes, archetypes, feats, spells, equipment, variant rules and more from the Ultimate Combat supplement. ($9.99)
Ultimate Equipment incorporates the weapons, armor, gear, and magic items from the Ultimate Equipment supplement. ($9.99)
Ultimate Magic contains the new Magus class, archetypes, feats and spells from the Ultimate Magic supplement. ($9.99)
Discount Bundles

If you're looking to purchase several packages at once, these discounted package bundles could save you some money! We always announce new discount bundles in our monthly newsletter.

The Bestiary Bundle combines the "Bestiary 1", "Bestiary 2", and "Bestiary 3" packages into one bundle for a discounted cost. Get all three for 15% off! ($29.99)
The Player Companion Bundle combines the "Adventurer's Armory", "Player Companion Races #1", "Player Companion Races #2", "Player Companion Regions #1", and "Player Companion Regions #2" packages into one bundle for a discounted cost. Get 5 for the price of 4! ($19.99)
The Campaign Setting Bundle combines the "Campaign Setting #1-5" packages into one bundle for a discounted cost. Get 5 for the price of 4! ($19.99)
New! The Classic Bundle combines all the books from the "Player Companion Bundle" and "Campaign Setting Bundle" at a further discount. That's content from over 35 books at a 40% discount compared to buying each package separately! ($29.99)"

Paizo Employee 3/5 5/5

I had the same issue as Jeffrey. Since starting PFS locally a year ago, I've spent hundreds on scenarios and modules. At first I figured I couldn't ask players to chip in since it was promoted as free to play. Plus I initially had help from our "area" (50+ miles away) VC & VLs who weren't charging & figured that was SOP - at the time I didn't know they got the scenarios for free, which I only discovered when I asked them about ideas to offset the costs. At this point it would be awkward trying to charge a fee at my table when others are running for free.

I would like to see the brainstorming continue on finding a way to allow copies or PRD use for those with physical books &/or supporting stores with PDF purchases. Perhaps a referral type system when buying pdf's that could result in stores receiving credits or other benefits.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Phillip Willis wrote:
Interestingly enough, we GMs have had this book carrying burden for some time. Save for those few with easy access to a copier, GMs generally have to carry about 5 or so books to run things smoothly...sometimes more. Add to that figures, mats, dice, markers, etc., and it looks like we're moving into an apartment. Some...

This! I'm sorry, but as a GM, I have very little sympathy for players who utilize every possible mechanic from every possible book and then complain about having to provide said books at the table. As a GM, I need to have all the books as well, if for no other reason than to be familiar with the contents, not to mention for my PC's, plus the scenario, maps, miniatures, visual aids/accessories, 3D terrain, etc. Can I get by without all the bells and whistles? Sure, but then I run a more "vanilla" game. The same can apply to players. You can play a fancy "rocky road" character, but then you need to provide the materials by rule. It is your CHOICE to play a complicated character with multiple book support.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

I am in total agreement with Mr Jonquet above, If people are going to utilize every possible mechanic they can get their hands on, then their hands damn well better be carrying their mountain of books (or tablet/laptop ladled with mountain of pdfs)

As a GM I only take what I find is necessary. In fact the only Pathfinder book I own in hard copy is the Core rulebook. Everything else is in PDF on my gaming tablet.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Michael Brock wrote:
However, if all 6 players chipped their $0.67 to play all 26 scenarios and take the burden off the GM, each player would have spent $17.29 for 11 months of gaming. That's $1.57 per month. I would even guess you may be able to collect that much just by picking up loose change found in parking lots. Yesterday alone, I found 17 pennies, and a nickel in four different parking lots we were at while out and about. If people are complaining about that cost point, I'm not really sure what to add at this point.

Disregarding the topic for a moment, the above quite was one of the funniest and most enetrtaining things I have read in a while. Sometimes complaining people just need a reality check, and I think Mike just nailed it with that one :)

Bravo!

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Complainers gonna complain ...

We've just switched our weekend Adventure Path from playing at one store to playing at a different one, because several of the players wouldn't countenance a proposed table fee (even though the store owner was prepared to return the fee as store credit). I didn't have a problem with it; I spend more than that on fuel getting to the store, and about the same amount again in Starbucks on my way there. But some people think the store should let them use table space for free, even if they never buy anything from the store.

Back to the topic at hand: I've spent about the same as Jeffrey Fox on scenarios in the year to date. But, as a consequence of the very recently acquired title shown next to my name above, that's one expense I will no longer have (thanks, Paizo!). I'll be putting the saving to good use, though, picking up PDFs for those older additional resources that I only have in hard copy.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Phillip Willis wrote:
Interestingly enough, we GMs have had this book carrying burden for some time. Save for those few with easy access to a copier, GMs generally have to carry about 5 or so books to run things smoothly...sometimes more. Add to that figures, mats, dice, markers, etc., and it looks like we're moving into an apartment. Some...
This! I'm sorry, but as a GM, I have very little sympathy for players who utilize every possible mechanic from every possible book and then complain about having to provide said books at the table. As a GM, I need to have all the books as well, if for no other reason than to be familiar with the contents, not to mention for my PC's, plus the scenario, maps, miniatures, visual aids/accessories, 3D terrain, etc. Can I get by without all the bells and whistles? Sure, but then I run a more "vanilla" game. The same can apply to players. You can play a fancy "rocky road" character, but then you need to provide the materials by rule. It is your CHOICE to play a complicated character with multiple book support.

So once again, your "solution" is don't use material you PAID MONEY FOR. Which leads to...umm why I am paying money to buy paizo books then? Remember that paizo needs to sell books to stay in business. So...basically what your telling me is I should not buy PF books anymore. Great...what a wonderful solution you have crafted there. I am sure a community can thrive under such great advice.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Matthew Pittard wrote:

I am in total agreement with Mr Jonquet above, If people are going to utilize every possible mechanic they can get their hands on, then their hands damn well better be carrying their mountain of books (or tablet/laptop ladled with mountain of pdfs)

As a GM I only take what I find is necessary. In fact the only Pathfinder book I own in hard copy is the Core rulebook. Everything else is in PDF on my gaming tablet.

So you feel the need to punish somebody for their play style of wanting to heavens forbid use books they actually paid money for?!? Seriously? Sigh.

5/5

Cold Napalm wrote:
Matthew Pittard wrote:

I am in total agreement with Mr Jonquet above, If people are going to utilize every possible mechanic they can get their hands on, then their hands damn well better be carrying their mountain of books (or tablet/laptop ladled with mountain of pdfs)

As a GM I only take what I find is necessary. In fact the only Pathfinder book I own in hard copy is the Core rulebook. Everything else is in PDF on my gaming tablet.

So you feel the need to punish somebody for their play style of wanting to heavens forbid use books they actually paid money for?!? Seriously? Sigh.

No one is saying not to use the resources you paid for... what we're saying is that if you're going to use 15 books to create a character, then don't whine about having to haul all the books with you when the rules specifically state that you have to be able to provide the resource for the *shiney*

It's been this way since the beginning, this is not a new rule

The Exchange 2/5

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:

No one is saying not to use the resources you paid for... what we're saying is that if you're going to use 15 books to create a character, then don't whine about having to haul all the books with you when the rules specifically state that you have to be able to provide the resource for the *shiney*

It's been this way since the beginning, this is not a new rule

Let's step back from phrasing like 'whining' - it's not helpful.

Some people may have (possibly wilfully, doesn't matter) misunderstood the previous rule as allowing a photocopied page from a physical book. That has now been clarified away - it's either a physical book, a watermarked printout or a watermarked PDF on a tablet.

That might leave people with longstanding characters in the position of having to cart around large quantities of books, or buy (many) PDFs and print out a couple of pages of each, or stop playing that character. Let's not try and judge their ability to carry or buy stuff - we don't know their circumstances. Commenting on the amount of stuff we as GM's need/choose to carry is also not helpful.

Is there a way, short of tearing out the appropriate pages, that these people can travel to play PFS and present the necessary material to the GM in a manner that is compatible with the intent behind the current legislation? I'm personally not currently clear what that intent actually is, whether it is veracity of content or proof of purchase, so let's presume both.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Cold Napalm wrote:


So once again, your "solution" is don't use material you PAID MONEY FOR. Which leads to...umm why I am paying money to buy paizo books then? Remember that paizo needs to sell books to stay in business. So...basically what your telling me is I should not buy PF books anymore. Great...what a wonderful solution you have crafted there. I am sure a community can thrive under such great advice.

Nobody is saying "don't buy books". Nobody. Please read again, more carefully. (Also, you are coming off as sarcastic, which makes honest discussion more difficult. Since you 'like the discussion aspect', I'll recommend that you back that off a notch or two.)

Cold Napalm wrote:
So you feel the need to punish somebody for their play style of wanting to heavens forbid use books they actually paid money for?!? Seriously? Sigh.

You are either putting words in someone else's moth (which is rude) or else you are badly misunderstanding what people have written. Nobody has expressed "a need to punish" anybody. Nobody. All people are saying is that the Guide has always indicated what you need to bring.

You are demonstrating a consistent inability to understand what people are saying. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you've misread the Guide, as well.

4/5

Elvis Aron Manypockets wrote:
I had the same issue as Jeffrey. Since starting PFS locally a year ago, I've spent hundreds on scenarios and modules. At first I figured I couldn't ask players to chip in since it was promoted as free to play. Plus I initially had help from our "area" (50+ miles away) VC & VLs who weren't charging & figured that was SOP - at the time I didn't know they got the scenarios for free, which I only discovered when I asked them about ideas to offset the costs. At this point it would be awkward trying to charge a fee at my table when others are running for free.

For the record, Elvis, we started in Toronto with free play and taking care of things. As a VL, I was providing printed copies to my GMs to borrow and supporting play that way. The printing costs, however, quickly added up, so we changed models.

For the past six months or so, we've been soliciting donations from players. It's a voluntary thing, and we make it clear to everyone that the donations are to defray the cost of the scenarios and the printing for our GMs. Not everyone donates every week, but we usually get a few dollars a week, which at least works to spread around the costs so that you don't have to bear it all yourself. You'd be surprised how often people will give you a dollar or two if 1) it's optional, 2) they know where it's going, and 3) they understand that a dollar for five hours' entertainment is still a tiny fraction of the cost of entertainment at a movie theatre or other location.

If you want to discuss how to shift over to a donation model without making it a shock to the community, drop me an email or a PM; I'm happy to give you a little more information about how we set the tone.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
This! I'm sorry, but as a GM, I have very little sympathy for players who utilize every possible mechanic from every possible book and then complain about having to provide said books at the table. As a GM, I need to have all the books as well, if for no other reason than to be familiar with the contents, not to mention for my PC's, plus the scenario, maps, miniatures, visual aids/accessories, 3D terrain, etc. Can I get by without all the bells and whistles? Sure, but then I run a more "vanilla" game. The same can apply to players. You can play a fancy "rocky road" character, but then you need to provide the materials by rule. It is your CHOICE to play a complicated character with multiple book support.

Your point is valid, both in terms of all the items a GM has to provide, as well as providing source for any non-standard mechanics you use for characters.

The only point that I am trying to make, the only point of confusion I suffer, is this one thing: if a player is utilizing a single spell from the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition book for his character, why is it inappropriate for that player to photocopy that single page instead of bring a the entire 400+ page book with him?

I personally believe that if the only answer to that question is "because that is what the rule says a player needs to do", then we would do well to talk about this rule and see about adjusting it.

Does a player need to build a character utilizing a bunch of different resources? No. But most player's don't do it just to complicate things, it's simply there play style. And by the very same token of "no, you don't have too", do we have to require players to bring their whole book when all they will be utilizing from it is a single feat? No, I don't believe we do.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Cold Napalm wrote:
So you feel the need to punish somebody for their play style of wanting to heavens forbid use books they actually paid money for?!? Seriously? Sigh.

Cold, I think it is important to keep perspective here. No one nor any rule in place is preventing us from using the resources we purchased. Any player can employ any mechanics from as many books as they can manage to travel with.

The discussion we should be seeking is how to allow those of us with numerous hard copies to carry only the pieces of those books relevant to our characters like those who have PDFs, but without having to re-purchase our collection in PDF form.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5

Lormyr wrote:


Your point is valid, both in terms of all the items a GM has to provide, as well as providing source for any non-standard mechanics you use for characters.

The only point that I am trying to make, the only point of confusion I suffer, is this one thing: if a player is utilizing a single spell from the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition book for his character, why is it inappropriate for that player to photocopy that single page instead of bring a the entire 400+ page book with him?

I personally believe that if the only answer to that question is "because that is what the rule says a player needs to do", then we would do well to talk about this rule and see about adjusting it.

Does a player need to build a character utilizing a bunch of different resources? No. But most player's don't do it just to complicate things, it's simply there play style. And by the very same token of "no, you don't have too", do we have to require players to bring their whole book when all they will be utilizing from it is a single feat? No, I don't believe we do.

The rule is there to insure not only is the GM running the game provided with a copy of the spell/feat/rule that applies, but also that you have purchased that specific source. That purchase entitles you to use anything legal from that source. A photocopy doesn't prove you purchased anything, it just proves you have access to a copier. That could have a copy of a friend's book, something you downloaded somewhere illegally, etc.

A copy is fine, as long as that copy is of a watermarked PDF showing your information in the watermark. If you don't own the PDF and aren't willing to buy one, then you will need to bring the book. Mike summed it up pretty clearly.

This is the nice thing about subscriptions, as they provide a PDF along with the hard copy. But if you are a hard copy kind of person and you choose to use a lot of different sources, invest in a little wheeled caddy to bring your books with you and you won't have to lug around anything. I've seen a lot of players who use old milk cartons attached to a caddy, or rolling luggage, to carry a TON of stuff with them.

2/5

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Lormyr wrote:
The only point that I am trying to make, the only point of confusion I suffer, is this one thing: if a player is utilizing a single spell from the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition book for his character, why is it inappropriate for that player to photocopy that single page instead of bring a the entire 400+ page book with him?

I have a story or two about a player who would do things just like that. I'll put the same advice out there that I gave him.

First, I hope...REALLY hope you don't buy any book, must less a really expensive one like that one...for just one spell. I've seen people do that. Far be it from me to tell someone how to spend their money, but I will tell ya...if that one spell gets banned down the road, they get REALLY upset. Outside of some of the rules books like Ultimate Equipment, many of the other books serve other purposes. RotRL is a campaign book, eh? My advice is to only buy that book if you're going to use it as a campaign book, or for the flavoring it provides. That way, you won't be disappointed if your one spell gets banned.

Second, a player should build his characters around what he owns, or what he's willing to carry around, whichever is the most limiting factor. Just sticking to core, AGP and Ultimate Equipment covers a myriad of builds. Carrying around a 10lb behemoth (like RotRL) for one spell isn't a great idea no more than buying it for that one spell. Just sayin'.

Chad wrote:
The rule is there to insure not only is the GM running the game provided with a copy of the spell/feat/rule that applies, but also that you have purchased that specific source. That purchase entitles you to use anything legal from that source. A photocopy doesn't prove you purchased anything, it just proves you have access to a copier. That could have a copy of a friend's book, something you downloaded somewhere illegally, etc.

For the more LN types out there, "because the rules says so" is usually a good enough reason, lol. However, for those diggin' deeper, this reasoning may work as well. None of us non-staffers, even VO's, speak directly for Paizo, but what Chad says here makes a lot of logical sense to me. And in the 50+ legal PFS games I have played, I have had a number of players attempt to pass off bootleg PDF print outs (and well as on handheld devices) as backup for their characters. What's interesting, is I had people do that to me at a con..where I know they spent some money in travel, hotel, etc. They could have easily bought the PDFs with some of their left over money, or invested in a cart.

The reality is, if you're doing an organized play system, and you don't have some basic controls in place, there are people who will simply use bootleg stuff and cheat your company of money you should probably be earning off the event. I hear a lot of GMs say, "I trust my players!" That sounds great! But, the reality of life is that people love to cut corners and even cheat when presented with easy opportunities. This is why we lock our car doors. It's EASY to get past a car door lock if you put your mind to it (or just break the glass), but locking the door discourages that person enough to maybe choose another car to rob. Leaving it open makes it very tempting to those who may not normally take larger steps to theft.

I don't speak for Paizo, but I'm taking a shot in the dark and guessing that having these rules primarily helps the GMs (I know it does for me) by forcing the players to have official documentation about their build that the GM can rely on as being legal and accurate. However, I bet a secondary reasons is that it helps to dissuade those who would normally cut corners and not buy the books they make their character with normally.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Sound advice, Phillip.

I personally would not purchase a book just for one thing in it. I choose it because it is full of hidden gems or the world material is awesome. We are currently on the last chapter of RotRL: AE for one set of our high level characters in PFS. It was a fun campaign, and the finale should be fun.

To date, I have purchased somewhere around 18 hard copy books and 12 scenarios. I also inherited about half that again hard copies (after overlap) and a ton of scenarios from a a friend who passed 2 years ago. So while my contribution is not as large as some, I certainly support this company. It would be nice to show a proof of purchase of some sort to get the same source copy rights as those with watermark PDFs. I suppose attempting to sell them on ebay or some such in order to purchase the pdf equal would also work, but I really do prefer having the book in hand to flip through as opposed to screen scroll (i am computer stupid).

Well except Jesse's books, those won't get sold for anything.

5/5 *

Phillip Willis wrote:
Stuff about ROTRL for one spell

Amen, sir. If this spell is blood money, then I would be fearing for my money like 24/7. The spell has been screaming "ban me!" for quite some time, and I would not be surprised if we finally saw the ban-hammer fall on it.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Shazam. So is the blog up yet?

Lantern Lodge 3/5

CRobledo wrote:
Amen, sir. If this spell is blood money, then I would be fearing for my money like 24/7. The spell has been screaming "ban me!" for quite some time, and I would not be surprised if we finally saw the ban-hammer fall on it.

In addition to having run all but the last part of the adventure path, my wizard uses blood money, raiment of command, and sign of wrath spells from that book. It was put to good use.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

There have been multiple suggestions for how to carry lots of books around with you at a convention.

From rolling carts, luggage with handles and wheels, back-packs, watermarked PDFs on tablets, watermarked PDF printouts, etc.

Part of the problem is a sense of entitlement. The rule has been what Mike clarified for a long, long time. It may have been a bit clear about reproductions (Xerox copies) of physical books. But the need to have the source with you hasn’t changed for several years now.

If you want to use a book you purchased, you can. You just have to have it with you when you play that character.

I have walked around with 5 hardcover books (including the Core Rulebook) and 5 to 10 softcover books in my backpack. Its overfull, very heavy (especially after walking half a mile or more with it), but I managed, because I had to. I also had a rolling file box with a handle that I would keep all my scenarios, chronicles, and such in. I don’t use that anymore, but it was something I used once upon a time.

I understand people don’t have tons of money, and even $20 might be too much sometimes. But seriously, at what point do people take responsibility for themselves instead of expecting everyone to cater to their entitlement issues?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

Jiggy wrote:
Shazam. So is the blog up yet?

Sorry Jiggy, there's at least still 3 hours left until the blog will be up... ;D

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5

Phillip Willis wrote:
For the more LN types out there, "because the rules says so" is usually a good enough reason, lol. However, for...

Yea, I probably should have prefaced that comment with "I believe the rules are there..." as I don't speak for Paizo nor do I presume to know the minds of the campaign managers. It's always been one of those things that just "make sense" to me. Other organized play systems use the same rules, so this isn't something unique to PFS.

In the end, Paizo is a business, and while I think we are lucky to have a business ran by people who love gaming and are passionate about it, they also have to keep an eye on the bottom line. As others have pointed out, Paizo gives away a lot of material to support PFS in the form of prizes at large conventions, not to mention paying a full time staff to manage organized play. So I would think there is some consideration given to the return on investment there at some point. Your purchases in the form of resources to support your gaming are likely a big part of that.

The one thing that I personally think would help improve this whole discussion is a way for someone who has a hardback version of a resource to be able to acquire the PDF version to help eliminate the "broken back" syndrome at a convention. I do agree with people that say that it is harsh to have to buy both versions of a resource, which is why I personally endorse subscriptions for the main product lines. I know this can hurt FLGS establishments, so I tend to buy everything else I need there, such as dice, flip mats, minis, etc. I also encourage players to pick up things like Player Character Folios at stores, if not only for the free reroll, but to support the store.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Shazam. So is the blog up yet?
Sorry Jiggy, there's at least still 3 hours left until the blog will be up... ;D

*taps fingers on desk*

How about now?

Sovereign Court

I carry my tablet containing all my watermarked PDFs, but I can understand why people who own hardcovers and not PDFs might feel a bit cheated that they have to carry a tonne of books around to be able to build the same kinds of characters I can.

Can I suggest a possible solution of creating a certification process for photocopies? If a player shows a VC his original source book and photocopy, the VC can sign off the page as owned by a particular player (maybe a special rubber stamp?) so in future the player only needs to carry around his photocopy that's been stamped and signed by said VC. Is such a thing possible?

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Chad Newman wrote:
The one thing that I personally think would help improve this whole discussion is a way for someone who has a hardback version of a resource to be able to acquire the PDF version to help eliminate the "broken back" syndrome at a convention. I do agree with people that say that it is harsh to have to buy both versions of a resource, which is why I personally endorse subscriptions for the main product lines. I know this can hurt FLGS establishments, so I tend to buy everything else I need there, such as dice, flip mats, minis, etc. I also encourage players to pick up things like Player Character Folios at stores, if not only for the free reroll, but to support the store.

That is a pretty good summary. In fairness, it can be said that one does not *have* to purchase both for legality, as you can choose to carry the books. Yes that works, and fair enough. The part that burns my ass personally is the PDF page copy being legal, and my perfectly squarely purchased hardback not being PFS legit to copy.

I understand why that rule is in place, and I respect why the team made that decision. I just hope others can understand why those of us who have a hardback collection that was also legitimately purchased from either Paizo direct and/or gaming stores and also want the luxury of page copies without re-purchasing everything are a bit sore about this.

From Mike's clarification, I now understand that it was always intended to be this way. That was just not the understanding I collected from some of his past posts on the matter (see above thread for examples), so it appears I have been incorrect on that issue for my entire PFS career. My bad there, and I apologize if my misinformation improperly informed anyone. I am sure some are more sympathetic to these issues than others, but there it is.

The Exchange 2/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

But seriously, at what point do people take responsibility for themselves instead of expecting everyone to cater to their entitlement issues?

There are two issues here and most people are busy tilting at a notional scrounger-gamer who doesn't want to pay for the resources that he wants to use to build his character. I'm sure people like that exist and exasperate a number of other people.

Let's look instead at a notional 14-yr old kid who has to bike a number of miles to the game store to play and doesn't want to risk either his collection of books to a thunderstorm, or the well-being of his lumbar vertebra. What are the issues preventing a photocopy of an owned book from being acceptable proof-of-purchase and what can we do to work around them to the benefit of a (possibly small) segment of the PFS community, without tarring them with the same brush used for the aforementioned scrounger?

For example: printout of orders page from Paizo showing purchase; photocopy showing page has been signed by the player and includes PFS number; notarised chronicle sheet showing book was previously present and was signed by player and included PFS number.

5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
...the problem is a sense of entitlement.
Andrew Christian wrote:
But seriously, at what point do people take responsibility for themselves instead of expecting everyone to cater to their entitlement issues?

I don't always agree with this fish head, but when I do...

5/5

Phillip Willis wrote:
Carrying around a 10lb behemoth (like RotRL) for one spell isn't a great idea no more than buying it for that one spell.

Please stop referring to this book as weighing 10 lbs! It's only 10 pounds if you're carrying around the case, which if you're already have trouble carrying around your books, why would you? The book itself weighs 2 ounces more than the CRB.

5/5 *

Jiggy wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Shazam. So is the blog up yet?
Sorry Jiggy, there's at least still 3 hours left until the blog will be up... ;D

*taps fingers on desk*

How about now?

I think there was a post at Mr Brock's Facebook this weekend that it would be on Monday afternoon and not noon as originally planned.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5

The Diplomat wrote:

I carry my tablet containing all my watermarked PDFs, but I can understand why people who own hardcovers and not PDFs might feel a bit cheated that they have to carry a tonne of books around to be able to build the same kinds of characters I can.

Can I suggest a possible solution of creating a certification process for photocopies? If a player shows a VC his original source book and photocopy, the VC can sign off the page as owned by a particular player (maybe a special rubber stamp?) so in future the player only needs to carry around his photocopy that's been stamped and signed by said VC. Is such a thing possible?

As a GM I too carry an iPad with all of my sources as watermarked PDFs. As a subscriber and a VO I typically will have anything in print that I can search for a player if needed and don't have a problem doing that.

As far as a certification process, it could work. I'd definitely send it in to Paizo/PFS Management as a suggestion. While I don't want to carry around a rubber stamp and an ink pad I think having a VO sign off on the page in ink with their PFS number and region would be one way to certify ownership. What I'm not sure of is if it goes towards preventing piracy. Player A has a book, gets a copy, gets it certified. Player B then borrows Player A's book the next week, does the same thing. Maybe the book needs to have the player's PFS number in ink on the certified page prior to signature. I don't know, but its a possible start.

It can never hurt to make suggestions that work to the spirit of the ruling yet make a player's life easier. In the end, PFS is here for the player to have fun. That is what everyone truly wants I believe.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

My one concern with using digital files (watermarked PDFs) is security. Whether I have them in a flash drive or a laptop or whatever, if I'm just that unlucky and someone steals it at a Con or FLGS, where people actually know how valuable these things are, I'm pretty much hosed.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Zahariel wrote:
My one concern with using digital files (watermarked PDFs) is security. Whether I have them in a flash drive or a laptop or whatever, if I'm just that unlucky and someone steals it at a Con or FLGS, where people actually know how valuable these things are, I'm pretty much hosed.

That is a valid concern with anything at a con, unfortunately. They attract folks with sticky fingers.

You have two options to help with that though. The first is to back up any files you take with you. The second is once you purchase a digital PDF from Paizo, you can simply download it again.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5

Keep in mind the same thing could happen with books. I know I had a few swiped right from the table I was at a few years back. So theft is not restricted to electronics.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few posts. This is not the appropriate thread to discuss the DMCA or legal issues pertaining to our products.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Cold Napalm wrote:
So you feel the need to punish somebody for their play style of wanting to heavens forbid use books they actually paid money for?!? Seriously? Sigh.

There is no punishment in what is being asked, its just a requirement of the hobby. You pay hundreds of dollars for hard copies of books and use them for the characters, then you need to bring them to the game to use them.

Lets compare this to another recreation I have learned a bit about over the past couple years thanks to my wife's family: Travelling Softball teams

My sister-in-law played on 'travel ball' teams all through highschool (and now plays for SIU). She brought to the game her uniform/ other change of clothes (whichever she wore first), her cleats, a bat or two or three, a ball glove or two, some softballs to practice with, and Im sure a half dozen other things were crammed in there as well like Icy Hot, water bottles, batting gloves, etc. All of these things add up in weaight and take up space, but you HAVE to bring them to play. You dont get to to leave them at home and then complain cause someone else wont lend you theirs. This stuff is expensive. All that is inside a bag which itself probably weighs 5lbs.

The point is that if you want to use the stuff you paid your good money for, you need to bring it with you.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Seth Gipson wrote:

There is no punishment in what is being asked, its just a requirement of the hobby. You pay hundreds of dollars for hard copies of books and use them for the characters, then you need to bring them to the game to use them.

Lets compare this to another recreation I have learned a bit about over the past couple years thanks to my wife's family: Travelling Softball teams

My sister-in-law played on 'travel ball' teams all through highschool (and now plays for SIU). She brought to the game her uniform/ other change of clothes (whichever she wore first), her cleats, a bat or two or three, a ball glove or two, some softballs to practice with, and Im sure a half dozen other things were crammed in there as well like Icy Hot, water bottles, batting gloves, etc. All of these things add up in weaight and take up space, but you HAVE to bring them to play. You dont get to to leave them at home and then complain cause someone else wont lend you theirs. This stuff is expensive. All that is inside a bag which itself probably weighs 5lbs.

The point is that if you want to use the stuff you paid your good money for, you need to bring it with you.

I agree that there is no punishment, but I also believe that the playing field as far as printed pages is not quite even either.

While I understand the moral of your softball story, and believe the point is valid, it is also somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison. One cannot play softball without a glove, ball, and bat. One can play pathfinder with dice, paper, writing utensil, and some combination of knowledge of the game rules, the books of game rules, and/or relevant pages of those books that apply to your character.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Lormyr wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:

There is no punishment in what is being asked, its just a requirement of the hobby. You pay hundreds of dollars for hard copies of books and use them for the characters, then you need to bring them to the game to use them.

Lets compare this to another recreation I have learned a bit about over the past couple years thanks to my wife's family: Travelling Softball teams

My sister-in-law played on 'travel ball' teams all through highschool (and now plays for SIU). She brought to the game her uniform/ other change of clothes (whichever she wore first), her cleats, a bat or two or three, a ball glove or two, some softballs to practice with, and Im sure a half dozen other things were crammed in there as well like Icy Hot, water bottles, batting gloves, etc. All of these things add up in weaight and take up space, but you HAVE to bring them to play. You dont get to to leave them at home and then complain cause someone else wont lend you theirs. This stuff is expensive. All that is inside a bag which itself probably weighs 5lbs.

The point is that if you want to use the stuff you paid your good money for, you need to bring it with you.

I agree that there is no punishment, but I also believe that the playing field as far as printed pages is not quite even either.

While I understand the moral of your softball story, and believe the point is valid, it is also somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison. One cannot play softball without a glove, ball, and bat. One can play pathfinder with dice, paper, writing utensil, and some combination of knowledge of the game rules, the books of game rules, and/or relevant pages of those books that apply to your character.

You are correct, one cannot play Pathfinder without those things. But one cannot play Pathfinder Society without proof that they own the books. If those books are hard copies and not pdfs, then you'll have to bring them with you.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I've personally lugged many pounds of books around at game conventions with me.

I have no sympathy for the "But I gotta carry lots of books" complaint.

None.

I've done it.

If I've done it, so can others.

If you don't want to, or can't afford to also buy the PDFs, or you want to support your FLGS (commendable), that's fine.

But there are consequences for all choices.

In this case, the consequence is the need to carry around lots of books (possibly upwards of 30 or 40 lbs).

I just don't get the argument that this is somehow hindering your fun, or that now you can't use those sources because its "heavy".

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I will invent the giant helium-filed goblin-shaped balloon! Weighing approximately -30 pounds at sea level, it will enable a player to carry many more books without suffering back problems. It's GEEEENIUS!

Now, by my measurements, about fifteen of these balloons will be able to fit into the Sagamore Ballroom ...

The Exchange 2/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

I have no sympathy for the "But I gotta carry lots of books" complaint.

None.

I've done it.

If I've done it, so can others.

Congratulations on your robust good-health.

Actually, not everyone can do what you can do.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Quote:
Let's look instead at a notional 14-yr old kid who has to bike a number of miles to the game store to play and doesn't want to risk either his collection of books to a thunderstorm, or the well-being of his lumbar vertebra. What are the issues preventing a photocopy of an owned book from being acceptable proof-of-purchase and what can we do to work around them to the benefit of a (possibly small) segment of the PFS community, without tarring them with the same brush used for the aforementioned scrounger?

What if you wrote in the book "this book is property of _______" and THEN photocopied it?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Seth Gibson wrote:
You pay hundreds of dollars for hard copies of books and use them for the characters, then you need to bring them to the game to use them.

I thought half the point of this hobby was to AVOID sports injuries...

Grand Lodge 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

I will invent the giant helium-filed goblin-shaped balloon! Weighing approximately -30 pounds at sea level, it will enable a player to carry many more books without suffering back problems. It's GEEEENIUS!

Now, by my measurements, about fifteen of these balloons will be able to fit into the Sagamore Ballroom ...

GIMME!

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Seth Gipson wrote:
You are correct, one cannot play Pathfinder without those things. But one cannot play Pathfinder Society without proof that they own the books. If those books are hard copies and not pdfs, then you'll have to bring them with you.

Understood. With that understanding, let's discuss ways in which those who own hardbacks can provide proof of such in a manner satisfactory to allow photocopies from them. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with wanting to see proof of ownership. I would just like to see the same page printing/photocopying available to hardback owners as well as a courtesy of convenience.

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