A flying Magus with reach could still be a melee combatant... so a Magus with a whip, Enlarge Person, or Lunge.
I've never understood this whole "flying trumps all" idea. How high are the roofs in your dungeons and caves?
Its not so much that flying trumps all, as it is that having it while fighting something doesn't can allow you to dominate. That said, not every game takes place in caves/hallways that are 10 feet high.
So, there's plenty of time when someone who can tank, but can't fly will be essential to the party.I've never understood this whole "flying trumps all" idea. How high are the roofs in your dungeons and caves?Its not so much that flying trumps all, as it is that having it while fighting something doesn't can allow you to dominate. That said, not every game takes place in caves/hallways that are 10 feet high.
Yeah, but if your tank is a ranger/fighter/barbarian its going to suck when they have to tank against something that can fly right over them and devour their squishies. Flight is one of those things the game sort of wants you to have but doesn't just give you.
Yeah, but if your tank is a ranger/fighter/barbarian its going to suck when they have to tank against something that can fly right over them and devour their squishies. Flight is one of those things the game sort of wants you to have but doesn't just give you.So, there's plenty of time when someone who can tank, but can't fly will be essential to the party.I've never understood this whole "flying trumps all" idea. How high are the roofs in your dungeons and caves?Its not so much that flying trumps all, as it is that having it while fighting something doesn't can allow you to dominate. That said, not every game takes place in caves/hallways that are 10 feet high.
Stopping things from flying isn't the Fighter's traditional job. That's for the casters.
If we're going to judge them let's try to judge them when they are playing their proper part in the party.
Stopping things from flying isn't the Fighter's traditional job. That's for the casters.
If we're going to judge them let's try to judge them when they are playing their proper part in the party.
So its the casters job to buff and stop flying foes and its the fighters job to... stand there? That's a huge part of the lack of respect. They should be able to do something, especially against something like flying which your bound to run into now and then.
Well I don't know about you guys but Barbarians make for some very NASTY martials (especially the CAGM barb). The ability to cleave SPELLS makes them the bane of many a creature. Now granted, a pure fighter is a horrible idea (the inability to do much of anything kinda sucks)
So its the casters job to buff and stop flying foes and its the fighters job to... stand there? That's a huge part of the lack of respect. They should be able to do something, especially against something like flying which your bound to run into now and then.Stopping things from flying isn't the Fighter's traditional job. That's for the casters.
If we're going to judge them let's try to judge them when they are playing their proper part in the party.
Well, hopefully the fighter is taking on the foes that aren't flying.
Sure, there may be a few encounters where all the opponents are flying. But it's been just as common in campaigns I've played to also have encounters that take place entirely within an anti-magic zone.
There are times when one or the other class will exclusively shine. But in the more normal circumstances where some enemies are flying and some aren't (or where some are resistant to magic and some aren't) each will play the proper part well.
I also wonder what happens when enemies succeed on saves/attacks? Because that doesn't seem to be mentioned here much. I think there is a strategy component missing here. something doesn't seem right.A lot of spells still do things on a passed save. Web, for example, still creates a zone of difficult terrain that tries to grapple anybody that moves through it, plus it provides cover for anybody outside of the web. Stinking cloud still obscures all vision of anybody in the cloud (and they have to keep saving if they stay in the cloud). Cloudkill still does Con damage on a passed save and can kill weaker creatures outright. None of these spells are blocked by SR either. For single-target encounters, Enervation doesn't even require a save, and reduces the likelihood that they enemy will save in the future (still vulnerable to SR, however). So there is a strategy component, but having enemies pass saves isn't the end of the world and it's not difficult to have tactics that are valid even in the presence of a passed save.
a lot of spells do things in a failed save. However, they don't do much and sometimes call for ability checks that can still be made, especially by the fighter. I had a fighter grab a wizard and hold him in his own cloudkill once. That was funny.
But Mr.Sin?!?! You and others have told me repeatedly that your caster doesn't need me...so he shouldn't be a "squishy"...he should just take off his conical hat and tank better than a martial.
I hope your joking because I personally haven't suggested that a wizard should tank. I might say a cleric or oracle can fill the job pretty well, but I have not said a wizard should try his best to tank because arbitrary.
I was however pointing out that martials could use more options to help them in situations. I guess you could argue against me and say fighters should be lack options at fighting?
Well I don't know about you guys but Barbarians make for some very NASTY martials (especially the CAGM barb). The ability to cleave SPELLS makes them the bane of many a creature. Now granted, a pure fighter is a horrible idea (the inability to do much of anything kinda sucks)
I think barbarians can be downright terrifying on the battlefield. I think they could use more options than what they have, but I think they are far closer to where you should be than a fighter. Barbarians always gave me the feel of a juggernaut on the field and like I had at least a few options(and they have uses out of combat), but fighters are in poor condition out of combat and inside they don't have tools to handle many situations that quickly become the norm. Yes, they can hit hard. But the game is about more than hitting hard.
Druids, summons and eidelon can all hold the line...but not better than a martial can. And most of your favored options have some out of combat versatility that is hard to match with a martial, but a good player can build in same versatility to his martial as well.
Well combat is about more than just standing there, and eidolons/summons are far more expendable than a fighter. However you need more than that in combat situations. What feat can a fighter take that makes him fly? How about ignore difficult terrain? Concealment? Darkness? He may have to overcome these obstacles, and the only argument I really see against it is the idea that its the casters job to buff him or dispel rather than giving the martial a tool to do it himself. I know there are feats that actually do help, but many of them have limitations.
Why is it assumed that the fighter can't fly? By a high enough level he most certainly will be flying, either by item or spell. He will also have ranged weapons.
And as for Invisibility, there is a reason that it is a 2nd level spell. It's because everybody can see invisible or deal with invisible creatures eventually. Blind-Fight is good, so is a bag of flour, but a potion of See Invisible is better and only cost 300gp. You can make that back from the stuff you loot off the caster's bloody corpse.
And again, team game... Our wizard (or whatever) will eventually have See Invisible up all day and have a Glitter Dust available.
Oh and lantern archons? Really? Those little things with AC15 and 13 HP? Casts buffs on them if you want, they will be dead by the next round.
And I have to mention the 1st level "encounter ender": Color Spray. I laugh every time I see this. Yes, if you get all of your opponents in front of you in, no less than 15' away in exactly the right 9 squares and they all fail their save, yes, your golden. If even one makes a save, however, the wizard is going splat. The only times our wizards use Color Spray is when something has gone seriously wrong and the enemy has closed. Then it is used as a last resort, "Pray that it works so the fighter has time to come over here and kill this," maneuver.
I generally agree that Fighters need more nice things (more skill points, more unique abilities) and I agree that other classes can fill his role, but it is a valuable role and the Fighter fills that role well.
The bag of flour wouldn't work. In pathfinder the flour would become invisible when it touched someone with invisibility on.
And that's where we quibble about the details:)
Everyone agrees to the need for a Melee build, we just disagree about how to fill it!
Part of it is just experience. I've seen all the theory crafting that says casters dominate, and I truly understand the theoretical underpinnings and the math. I've simply never seen it in practice at the table. I've seen plenty of examples where a caster completely owned a given encounter, but not consistently through multiple events.
But have you tried? Have you ever tried a group, where the melee char is a wildshaping focused druid, or synth summoner, or Inquisitor, or battle oracle instead of a fighter/barbarian?
I've done, and the experience was more than succesful. Never missed the fighter. There was not any circumstance where his job (filling the front and doing reliable weapon damage) couldn't be done by the druid. But there were a lot of situations where having a druid in the melee spot as extra caster helped a lot.
The bag of flour wouldn't work. In pathfinder the flour would become invisible when it touched someone with invisibility on.
They leave footprints on the ground, or would move the flour dust in the air when they moved. I know neither is explicitly in the rules, but this is still a role playing game, I hope, and such things can be assumed. How well it works would be up to the evil GM and his arbitrary "fiat". Which we all know should be stomped out of the game as thoroughly as possible.
If you need, say a plumber, do you want the BEST plumber? Or do you want a mediocre plumber who's also a pilot and a soldier and a lawyer?
If I need a plumber to solve some problem in the pipes of a flying castle with several enemies, which happen to be in a foreign country with hash immigration laws, the second one is better. Repairing a pipe doesn't sound as an average adventurer's task. But repairing a pipe in a flying castle full of orcs in a foreign country does.
Adventuring bring a lot of different challenges. Combat is one of them. Fighters do fine in combat, but do poor in any other challenge (interaction, exploration, problem solving, enviromental protection, whatever). A Druid, for example, do fine in combat, but also do fine in several other spots.
That's the main problem with fighters, and that's why this thread comes once and again. Using a Justice League analogy, a fighter is Flash. He can run very very fast. A druid is Superman. He can run just as fast, and it's not even the fourth or fifth more important thing he can do.
If you need the martial, then let him do the job that no one else does better. Druids, summons and eidelon can all hold the line...but not better than a martial can.
A druid doesn't need to do the "tank" job "better" than a fighter. If he does it equally well, it's already a much better character.
See again the Flash vs Superman comparison. Superman does NOT run faster than Flash. But he doesn't need that to be much more powerful. He run just AS fast as Flash. But he is nigh invulneerable, ultra-strong, can fly, obliterate things with eye-beams, have super-senses, and can freeze a lake by blowing at it. Running faster than Flash would be overkill, wouldn't it?
Yet the flash does more with his speed than superman ever would.
Arm tornadoes and time travel to name a couple.
Also the flash has a faster foot speed the superman. Superman can fly faster.
Yet the flash does more with his speed than superman ever would.
Because Supes don't need it. Why would superman do a tornado by running in circles, when he can blow a hurricane?
Also the flash has a faster foot speed the superman. Superman can fly faster.
That last sentence is a good example for the fighter/caster eternal comparison.
Yes, flash run faster than superman. However, superman could fly, at 2 feet over the floor and do it faster than Flash. He could also fly to the moon, which Flash can't. So what's exactly the merit of Flash? He is doing something better than Superman, just because Superman doesn't even bother with that.
Let's take back to caster/martial comparison. The fighter can climb faster than the wizard, no one denies that. But while the fighter climbs, the wizard could fly to the top of the tree. So I don't really see any advantage in the fighter being a better climber, just like I don't really see any advantage in Flash being (slightly) faster runner.
And to be honest, Flash is already quite powerful, even if limited. In D&D comparison, it'll be a half-caster like an alchemist. To make a more valid caster/martial comparison, we should compare overly mundane characters such as Black Widow or Hawkeye with others with enhanced powers, like Iron Man, The Vision or Thor.
Because that means he's actually laughing while his friends are being stabbed?When did I ever say that? What I said was "If you're Magus is flying high over the enemy, then he's not doing a good job being a melee combatant.".
A requisite of being a melee combatant is being in melee combat. Sure he can be doing stuff from range, in fact that's ALL he can do from the sky. The only person who suggested he's "actually laughing" is you.
Yes, someone flying in the sky isn't being a melee combatant.
In cast you missed it, that is my point. Being a melee combatant is not a useful skill when you don't need it to overcome challenges! You keep thinking that you do.
Yet the flash does more with his speed than superman ever would.Because Supes don't need it. Why would superman do a tornado by running in circles, when he can blow a hurricane?
Also the flash has a faster foot speed the superman. Superman can fly faster.That last sentence is a good example for the fighter/caster eternal comparison.
Yes, flash run faster than superman. However, superman could fly, at 2 feet over the floor and do it faster than Flash. He could also fly to the moon, which Flash can't. So what's exactly the merit of Flash? He is doing something better than Superman, just because Superman doesn't even bother with that.
Let's take back to caster/martial comparison. The fighter can climb faster than the wizard, no one denies that. But while the fighter climbs, the wizard could fly to the top of the tree. So I don't really see any advantage in the fighter being a better climber, just like I don't really see any advantage in Flash being (slightly) faster runner.And to be honest, Flash is already quite powerful, even if limited. In D&D comparison, it'll be a half-caster like an alchemist. To make a more valid caster/martial comparison, we should compare overly mundane characters such as Black Widow or Hawkeye with others with enhanced powers, like Iron Man, The Vision or Thor.
And yet Flash is one of the founding members of the JL. He plays a valid role in the group. He is also immune to kryptonite (anti-magic field/SR).
Why is it assumed that the fighter can't fly? By a high enough level he most certainly will be flying, either by item or spell. He will also have ranged weapons.
And as for Invisibility, there is a reason that it is a 2nd level spell. It's because everybody can see invisible or deal with invisible creatures eventually. Blind-Fight is good, so is a bag of flour, but a potion of See Invisible is better and only cost 300gp. You can make that back from the stuff you loot off the caster's bloody corpse.
And again, team game... Our wizard (or whatever) will eventually have See Invisible up all day and have a Glitter Dust available.
Oh and lantern archons? Really? Those little things with AC15 and 13 HP? Casts buffs on them if you want, they will be dead by the next round.
It is assumed the fighter cannot fly because the fighter cannot fly. Not all day like a wizard or a magus anyway. Why would I waste a spell slot on him EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER?!
Yes, there are lots of ways to defeat invisibility. We're not talking hypotheticals though, we're talking actual published modules. NPCs don't carry around lots of pots of See Invis or bags of flower, and monsters definitely don't. They'd also have to know you're there to be able to target your space.
Lanter archons. Really. How are you attacking them? They're flying. You're not some PC who can play "but I could have this" I'm talking about monsters in a designed dungeon, none of whom could fly or make ranged attacks, essentially making the archons invincible while they PEW PEWed everything.
You're not even thinking clearly with color spray. If someone makes the save the caster is splat? No, not if every other party member goes between me and them. And they all have color spray. Level 1 encounters are typically unable to make 4 DC 16/17 will saves in a row. Play 4 casters. Probably 2 spell slots total used for the encounter. Cinch.
A 12th Level Druid will out damage (though not out-hit) a Fighter all day long, in addition to having a higher Armor Class, Pounce (Eat your heart out Fighter, no amount of Feats will get you this), full spellcasting, and an Animal Companion. The difference in hit is small and the Druid will be making more attacks than the Fighter thanks to pounce anyway. If you don't believe that this is imbalanced than I am uncertain what metric you are using.I have seen commentaries like this one several times. I would like to see if this is true.
Anybody interested please post a 12th level DPR focused druid and I wil builda 12th level fighter to compare.
(the build hterad coudl be agood place to do a comparision)
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2piog&page=last?Build-Thread-3-Swinging-Swo rds-and-Kickin-Ass
We discussed this in another thread. You can find the 12th Level Fighter and the 12th Level Druid here. (Bonus Oracle build also.)
I guess the question comes down to if you can build a Fighter better than Marthkus.
Which someone did in that thread and dwarfed the DPR I was outputting. My build was pretty vanilla.
Yes, someone flying in the sky isn't being a melee combatant.
In cast you missed it, that is my point. Being a melee combatant is not a useful skill when you don't need it to overcome challenges! You keep thinking that you do.
Let's back up a step. In a more traditional party, what do you think is the "purpose" of melee combat?
It is assumed the fighter cannot fly because the fighter cannot fly. Not all day like a wizard or a magus anyway. Why would I waste a spell slot on him EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER?!
So what you are saying is that the wizard is casting fly on himself every single encounter? I thought he was just flying all day? Your argument is starting to fall apart here. Winged Boots, Winged Shield and Celestial Armor exist for a reason. They are limited to how many times they can be used, but so is the wizard. I don't know what kinds of games your playing, but most (all?) APs assume you will be on the ground the majority of the time.
Yes, there are lots of ways to defeat invisibility. We're not talking hypotheticals though, we're talking actual published modules. NPCs don't carry around lots of pots of See Invis or bags of flower, and monsters definitely don't. They'd also have to know you're there to be able to target your space.
I was talking about what a fighter does to counter invisibility. If we are talking about monsters then you have to add things like scent, blindsense and blindsight. Trying to walk invisibly through a dungeon has never worked out that well for any group I have ever played in. If you never fight anything that can detect invisibility then of course it will seem over powered.
Lanter archons. Really. How are you attacking them? They're flying. You're not some PC who can play "but I could have this" I'm talking about monsters in a designed dungeon, none of whom could fly or make ranged attacks, essentially making the archons invincible while they PEW PEWed everything.
And again, you are going through an entire dungeon at 10th level and nothing in there can fly or make a ranged attack? And you get through the whole dungeon in under a minute (one casting of Summon Monster). I have never seen such a thing, and I doubt many others here have either. What you are talking about is a poorly designed dungeon. It would be the same as saying wizards are useless because the entire dungeon is in an anti-magic field.
You're not even thinking clearly with color spray. If someone makes the save the caster is splat? No, not if every other party member goes between me and them. And they all have color spray. Level 1 encounters are typically unable to make 4 DC 16/17 will saves in a row. Play 4 casters. Probably 2 spell slots total used for the encounter. Cinch.
So every PC is a caster, and every PC goes before the enemy every single time. Got it. Sure, four Color Sprays will pretty much guarantee that those hit will fail at least one of them, but I don't buy that the bad guys will never get to go first. I also don't buy that you will be able to hit them all with all four Color Sprays, or even two or three if the terrain is difficult or the bad guys come in waves. Plus all they have to do is close their eyes to be immune. Do your opponents ever close their eyes?
So I guess if your DM always throws softballs your way and doesn't play the bad guys intelligently, then yes, casters are unbeatable.
Mind you I am not even saying that casters aren't better than martials in many respects. I agree that they are. I just don't see the problem being as big as some here make it out to be.
So what you are saying is that the wizard is casting fly on himself every single encounter?
No, that isn't what he was saying at all. It does however suck that the fighter has to depend on others or waste resources outside of his class to fight things that come up all the time.
So I guess if your DM always throws softballs
That's insulting...
Mind you I am not even saying that casters aren't better than martials in many respects. I agree that they are. I just don't see the problem being as big as some here make it out to be.
So how big is it? Is it something that should be fixed?
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If you need, say a plumber, do you want the BEST plumber? Or do you want a mediocre plumber who's also a pilot and a soldier and a lawyer?If you need someone that can handle plumbing, someone that can fly a plane, someone that can fight, and someone to speak in court, would you rather have a plumber, a pilot, a soldier, and a lawyer, or four plumber-pilot-soldier-lawyers?
Wonderful.
By your logic, my fighter can replace the party wizard and the party rogue.
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So what you are saying is that the wizard is casting fly on himself every single encounter?No, that isn't what he was saying at all. It does however suck that the fighter has to depend on others or waste resources outside of his class to fight things that come up all the time.
So I guess if your DM always throws softballsThat's insulting...
Mind you I am not even saying that casters aren't better than martials in many respects. I agree that they are. I just don't see the problem being as big as some here make it out to be.So how big is it? Is it something that should be fixed?
In my experience, the problem is usually the player, not the class.
Players build min/maxed DPR machines then start complaining about all the things they cannot do.
Build a well balanced character, of any class, and the problem goes away.
Build a well balanced character, of any class, and the problem goes away.
I would agree if I felt that all classes were perfectly balanced and competent on their own.
wait, a fighter can fight a flying foe... like any foe at range, with a bow and arrows
because every fighter is an archer right?
I'll give you Rogue gladly Arthanthos (though that is like saying you can outrun a Dwarf), but Wizard... ya no. In this metaphor your Fighter is no Lawyer, he may be able to know the Statutes and Codes and even be able to speak eloquently on them. Maybe he's even represented himself pro se (though then he would have a fool for client). But he lacks the specialized skill to be able to research all the cases that are binding or persuasive on his point to the judge and thus lacks the same ability a lawyer has. You certainly would not consider such a person a lawyer, nor would you (I hope) pay such a person to act as one. Your character is more informed about the Law, than actually being a lawyer.
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Build a well balanced character, of any class, and the problem goes away.I would agree if I felt that all classes were perfectly balanced and competent on their own.
There is no such thing as perfect balance. It does not exist.
All classes are competent on their own. The only difference is the specific solution they bring to the problem.
wait, a fighter can fight a flying foe... like any foe at range, with a bow and arrows
It's not that I don't believe you, but well I don't believe you.
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I'll give you Rogue gladly Arthanthos (though that is like saying you can outrun a Dwarf), but Wizard... ya no.
I was using mplindustries standard of "good enough".
My fighter would never try to replace a real wizard, even if she does carry enough scrolls to open her own magic shop. Conversely, my Conjurer would never try to replace a real fighter, even if he does walk around with a half dozen permanently summoned elementals.
So what you are saying is that the wizard is casting fly on himself every single encounter?No, that isn't what he was saying at all. It does however suck that the fighter has to depend on others or waste resources outside of his class to fight things that come up all the time.
So I guess if your DM always throws softballsThat's insulting...
Mind you I am not even saying that casters aren't better than martials in many respects. I agree that they are. I just don't see the problem being as big as some here make it out to be.So how big is it? Is it something that should be fixed?
He was saying that a wizard would be flying all day, but doesn't specify how. If it is just one spell then it would be just one spell to cast on the fighter (or whoever) as well. If he has to cast it for every single encounter for the fighter then he would have to be casting it for himself for every encounter as well. The problem is he is saying that it is trivial to get himself to fly all day then turning around and claiming it is a huge burden to cast it on the fighter. It is disingenuous.
As for spending resources to fly. The fighter spends money on Winged Boots, the wizard spends money on his spellbook. Sorcerers just fly for free. That's the way it goes.
I wasn't trying to be insulting with the softball comment. But an entire dungeon (or series of encounters) filled with ground bound creatures that have no ability to detect invisibility is softball. We are talking about a level where the caster can summon 1d4+1 lantern archons with one spell. There is no getting around that. It is absolutely a problem with the campaign design and not a problem with wizards or fighters or anything else.
So how big is the problem? Well fighters aren't worthless, they are still valuable members of a party. Druids are probably overpowered, along with the (non-core I will point out) oracle, summoner and others. The fix would be to increase the abilities of the fighter, rogue and others that are falling behind.
There will never be a way to get a mundane fighter to fly or a mundane rogue to turn invisible. As long as people want to play mundane characters in Pathfinder then these are the limitations that the game designers will have to work with.
Use of magic items are required, no matter how mundane your character is. This is what allows a non-magical character to compete with magical ones. Maybe mundane characters can have abilities that allow them to get more use out of magical items than others?
All classes are competent on their own. The only difference is the specific solution they bring to the problem.
Well that's a blatant lie.
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Fighters get very few and they are mostly feats which have very limited effect.
You are incorrect.
Fighters have as many build options as the player chooses, and they can be campaign altering.
Celebrian has a great deal of versatility, in and out of combat.
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All classes are competent on their own. The only difference is the specific solution they bring to the problem.Well that's a blatant lie.
Only if you lack system mastery.
If you cannot figure out how to build a competent character of any class, post a topic in the advice section.
I'm sure somebody will help you.