80 DPR is still higher than the 79 of your druid. Higher average damage means little, once you throw in chance to hit, the fighter sores ahead
I haven't checked the maths, but I'll take your example. If the fighter does 80 DPR, and the druid does 79, then de druid is heads and shoulders above the fighter. He does close to exactly the same damage and we still have to consider the pet damage, can summon, cast spells, heal the party, self buff, buff others, have better overall class skills, and better saves.
Once again, Flash can run *slightly* faster than Superman. It doesn't mean they are balanced.
And yes, Flash is a valid member of the justice league. So is aquaman. But they aren't equally powerful, or balanced. Aquaman or Hawkman isn't in the same league than Green Lantern, Wonder Woman or Superman if we are talking about their power. Could you preffer Aquaman character? No doubt. Just like some people preffer fighter's role. But they aren't in the same league than druids.
We were also at level 12 where the druids wildshape has already peaked in effectiveness. That gap in effectiveness only spread from there.
Also that was the most martial opt druid possible. Most people playing a druid are not going to optimize that much just to hit things harder, they would rather cast spells at that point.
The player who enjoys hitting things really hard is probably not the same kind of player that wants to mess with druid paperwork. Likewise the guy who wants to play the druid, probably wants to be casting spells.
*All the JL members are in the same league, or else it wouldn't be called the Justice League
The important thing everyone seems to be losing sight of, is that DC sucks.
*All the JL members are in the same league, or else it wouldn't be called the Justice League
...Plastic man
What about OP Plastic man?
*All the JL members are in the same league, or else it wouldn't be called the Justice League
Sorry, no. Green Lantern and Superman aren't in the same level than say, Green Arrow, Huntress or Congorilla.
What about OP Plastic man?
His powers include shape shifting, immortality, and regeneration. The justice league is made of many people. Seriously, the wonder twins were in the same room as super man. There's even this one guy without any super powers at all. Not sure how well that does as a DnD parallel...
And yet they are all in the same league.
Batman has no powers and he hangs right up their with Superman.
Batman has no powers and he hangs right up their with Superman.
Batman plays with a 50+ point buy, is all 9 alignments at once, and breaks WBL though.
Batman has no powers and he hangs right up their with Superman.
Because he is powerful. Batman is how fighters *should be*, not how fighters *are*.
And yes, Green Arrow and Green Lantern are both JLA. Just like Druids and fighters are both pathfinder adventurers. I know a guy whose favourite character in DC universe is Green arrow. That doesn't has anything to do with the characters being equally powerful.
And if I were the President of USA or the UN, and some alien invasion were to destroy the earth, I'd rather have Superman, Green Lantern, Batman and Martian Manhunter than Green Arrow, Congorilla, Huntress and Zatana on my side. Even if all of them are, technically, "same CR adventurers", like monks and Synthesist summoners are.
Batman is LG.
Batman is LG.
Well that's just an argument waiting to happen...
Batman is LG.Well that's just an argument waiting to happen...
Oh no, No, no, no, no, no. NO.
Oh no, No, no, no, no, no. NO.Batman is LG.Well that's just an argument waiting to happen...
Well I am glad we all agree that Batman is LG. Shows we all have some common ground.
Well I am glad we all agree that Batman is LG. Shows we all have some common ground.Oh no, No, no, no, no, no. NO.Batman is LG.Well that's just an argument waiting to happen...
Funny story, but there was once a PFS group my friend was in that argued he was evil because he let bad guys live.
Anyways... so martials? I don't even know if batman counts as one.
Anyways... so martials? I don't even know if batman counts as one.
"Batman" was 3.X name of the wizard build we now know as "god wizard"
Batman is a ninja. DUH!
Batman is a ninja. DUH!
With sap master and improved feint.
There are no doors. The forum is a series of tubes.
Batman is a ninja. DUH!With sap master and improved feint.
Is there any other way?
If you need, say a plumber, do you want the BEST plumber? Or do you want a mediocre plumber who's also a pilot and a soldier and a lawyer?If you need someone that can handle plumbing, someone that can fly a plane, someone that can fight, and someone to speak in court, would you rather have a plumber, a pilot, a soldier, and a lawyer, or four plumber-pilot-soldier-lawyers?Wonderful.
By your logic, my fighter can replace the party wizard and the party rogue.
I don't understand this comment at all. In the context of my analogy, the Fighter would be the Soldier, probably. He is great at fighting, but is literally incapable of plumbing, piloting, or lawyering. He can take skills, but he's in the same boat as a Rogue there (i.e. that the majority of skills are extremely weak). The best he could hope for is literally throwing money at the problem (with scrolls and stuff), but the thing is, hiring a melee guy to walk around with you is cheaper than buying items to cover the caster stuff.
There is no such thing as perfect balance. It does not exist.
While I don't agree with you, even if it were true, it doesn't mean that it isn't valuable to try to achieve perfect balance. Every step close to perfect balance is better than the one before, so it's still worth trying even if you can't get all the way there.
All classes are competent on their own. The only difference is the specific solution they bring to the problem.
No, most classes are actually not competent on their own. Martials require magic in the mid to late game. Your solution, for example, was not mundane, it was to use magic items.
If you're using your WBL to close the gap between your martial and the spellcasters, what happens when the spellcasters spend their WBL? It's even worse when you consider that the spellcaster can almost double their WBL by just crafting most of their stuff.
So how about it? How do you fix fighters? Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a mundane class.
1) E6
or2) While it would be much more work, I find it preferable: combine Fighter and Rogue together and nerf spellcasting a bit.
Honestly, though, my solution is "play a better RPG when I'm with a group willing to do so." Hell, Pathfinder isn't even my favorite version of D&D. No, my real problem is that a great deal of people don't know anything about RPGs that aren't D&D/Pathfinder, and are generally unwilling to try something different.
My suggestion is magic items and extraordinary abilities. I know that there are some that would even like for character's to be viable without any magic at all (item or otherwise), but I think at that point they are just playing the wrong game. Pathfinder is about magic.
The problem is the disconnect between what high level 3rd edition D&D play is like and literally everything else ever. The only media like high level 3rd edition D&D is media specifically written to look like high level 3rd edition D&D.
Show me any myth, piece of literature, or even TV show/movie that looks like D&D (that wasn't made specifically to look like it), I dare you. It just doesn't exist. You can't dismiss people's desires--they're perfectly reasonable (albeit, unrealistic in 3rd edition).
80 DPR is still higher than the 79 of your druid. Higher average damage means little, once you throw in chance to hit, the fighter sores ahead.
DPR is "damage per round," which includes hit chance as a consideration. Simply, DPR is your chance to hit multiplied by your average damage (though crits do complicate the real math a bit more). It's 80 to 79 taking everything into account. In other words, the Fighter trades full spellcasting, 2 skill points, and an animal companion for 1 DPR. Hooray?
Some other 5th edition inspired feats, "translated" to PF mechanics, could be:
Shield master:
You can use your shield as a melee weapon doing 1d6, without losing the AC bonus
You can add your shield bonus vs Touch Attacks and Ref saves.
or
Mobile:
Your speed increase +10 feet
You don't provoke AOO for movement from a creature you attack.
Let's compare Shield master with PF shield bash, or Mobile with pathfinder Spring attack. And remember, those feats have no pre-req.
So how about it? How do you fix fighters? Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a mundane class.1) E6
or
2) While it would be much more work, I find it preferable: combine Fighter and Rogue together and nerf spellcasting a bit.Honestly, though, my solution is "play a better RPG when I'm with a group willing to do so." Hell, Pathfinder isn't even my favorite version of D&D. No, my real problem is that a great deal of people don't know anything about RPGs that aren't D&D/Pathfinder, and are generally unwilling to try something different.
So the real answer is you don't really like this game at all. Well that is not very helpful. Some of us like the way the game is now.
If those of us who like the game suggest a fix it is to make the game a little better, not to change the game into something entirely different. I don't want to play an E6 game. I want a separate Rogue and Fighter class. I want the same play style that D&D has represented for almost 40 years.
Is it the best? There is no "best". There are different games for different styles. If you don't like this style that is perfectly valid, but don't ruin it for the rest of us.
Yes use the mechanics of dead systems that died for a reason to justify your point.
Pathfinder shows that if those editions were better they would still be alive and going after their parent company abandoned them.
Please note that 1e didn't fail. The company that printed it made some dumb business decisions. There are still people who play 1E and enjoy it. 3E would not exist if not for those product-starved 1e players who wanted something, ANYTHING, to get their D&D fix.
WOTC decided to buy the game and make something new out of it. It is far more complex and wizard-friendly then the old game. Also, they started to put out good product that people wanted to buy, instead of boxed set after boxed set.
I've sold or given away most of my 3.5 stuff. I still have my 1e stuff (yes, yes, I know...). I always like seeing conversions of the old to the new, but it IS a lot more complex.
========
The only analogue to the fighter today is anime comics and video games.
Bleach is a good example of what a leveling character does. From chopping up monsters, to being able to stand on air, bat aside spells, hew mountains, etc. All over time. It naturally assumes that people get more powerful as they level.
Fighters in video games sometimes get the appropriate treatment. The barbarian in Diablo gets to jump longer distances, run faster, turn into a human whirlwind, resist magic and so forth.
3.5E does not have the concept of Training To Awesomeness that pretty much every sword-waving anime takes as rote. There, it's assumed that being able to wield a sword is as or more devastating then being able to cast, that a focus on being able to create carnage makes you far better at carnage then someone who wiggles their fingers.
Until Fighters can Learn Stuff that compares with Wiggling Fingers, Fighters will always be second rate. Until Rogues can become slippery enough to escape the rules of reality, Rogues will be third rate.
Meh!
==Aelryinth
Pathfinder showed that 3e did not fail because a 4e existed.
1e failed because 2e was better.
No, 2e came along because the same company decided to issue a 2nd edition of its game to make more money. They stopped making 1E in order to make 2E...that's not a fail.
==Aelryinth
And PF will have a 2E someday, too. Probably after 5E comes out and they see what's nice about that game and bootleg some changes into PF.
Improved Feats hopefully will be one of those things. Feats should rock. Feats in the hands of a Fighter should ROCK OUT.
==Aelryinth
So the real answer is you don't really like this game at all. Well that is not very helpful. Some of us like the way the game is now.
If those of us who like the game suggest a fix it is to make the game a little better, not to change the game into something entirely different. I don't want to play an E6 game. I want a separate Rogue and Fighter class. I want the same play style that D&D has represented for almost 40 years.
Is it the best? There is no "best". There are different games for different styles. If you don't like this style that is perfectly valid, but don't ruin it for the rest of us.
Well, as others pointed out, if I had to pick any version of D&D to play, I'd go for AD&D, with all the option books, especially Skills and Powers (best supplement for any RPG ever!).
That feels like D&D to me. 3rd edition (and Pathfinder in turn) never did, because spellcasters and magic items changed the experience drastically.
Yes use the mechanics of dead systems that died for a reason to justify your point.
Pathfinder shows that if those editions were better they would still be alive and going after their parent company abandoned them.
Failing to make more money and failing as a game are very different. New editions are not released because previous editions are bad--new editions are released because new editions can make more money. Heck, look at White Wolf. They tried a new edition of World of Darkness (one I actually think is better) and are now just going right back to the "Classic" World of Darkness.
In a sense, that's what happened with DnD. 3e is more similar to 1e than 2e IMHO.
Not seeing it. 2e WAS 1e, with druids changed a bit, an anemic skill system added, and some monster names sanitized. So 2e was really more like 1.5e, all things considered.
3.0 was a sea change that brought in a standard d20 mechanic (yay), feats (for the better), added a lot of "meat" to the class features (another big plus), and nerfed martials into the ground while massively buffing casters (both incredible minuses).
If you choose to play with a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard, and they all take their classic roles, then 3.x and Pathfinder are absolutely (IMO) able to recreate the feel of AD&D. Just because you can break the system and make casters supreme doesn't mean you should.