I've recently started game-mastering a Pathfinder game, and in between learning exactly what's changed from 3.5 the hard way ("What do you mean, Manyshot just gives you another attack per round?"), things were going rather well...until...
Some of my players decided that having a really high AC was a great idea. Now, I know what some of you will say, that focusing on defense at the cost of offense isn't something I should be worried about, but my issue stems from the narrative- yes, I could have enemies ignore high AC characters, but there are really times when they shouldn't...plus, let's face it, there's only so many times I can beat the Rogue into paste before it gets old.
Now, I know several tricks to get around AC, but I can't use these all the time, if only because it gets old, and it isn't really much fun. I've had Dire Tigers grapple the Paladin, blasted the Monk with Stone Call and Ice Storm, and hit the Battle Oracle with rays and Shadows.
However, the characters that are starting to annoy me keep getting BETTER at doing so, and I'm starting to run out of tricks.
Last night, I had them "encounter" an enemy much too high level for them (a CR 11 Splinter Drake with the Giant template)- they heard it coming a mile away, and it was initially not interested in them- to the point that even when they attacked it, it just hit them with it's breath weapon and continued on it's merry way.
But of course, rather than avoid it, the Sorcerer thought hitting it with an acid fireball was the way to go. During the fight, several of the "high-AC" characters DID, in fact, get beat up, thanks to the high attack bonus of the drake, which was rather satisfying...but then the Rogue ended up in it's path of destruction and was obliterated, with no real chance of survival.
The character's first instinct was to abandon the party, and flee, but the player didn't feel comfortable with that notion, and decided to stick it out. His reward for being a team player? Dropped to -15 in two hits.
The party won, of course, which really leaves me confused. A few party members have managed to achieve defenses that require either very specialized foes, or enemies 5 CR above the APL to actually target- and even with the supposedly reduced offense, can still beat such enemies.
I've gone over the sheets, and it's not due to any mistakes or bookkeeping errors that I can see. Everything is legitimate, and they're only a little above WBL (mostly due to being able to challenge more powerful enemies before I thought they could).
I want to keep the game fun long enough for us to break out of the rut our games have been in for awhile, that is, namely, the minute you start getting to levels above 7, the odds of the game continuing start to drop quickly, but this problem is only going to exacerbate itself over time. In the next post, I'll go over each character in turn, and highlight the issues I'm having (and vent some frustration). I appreciate any advice in this matter.
Well, save for "these options are weak, LRN2GM" or "this mechanic is perfectly acceptable and is baseline". I'm aware that there are MUCH more problematic things in the game, and that these issues are avoidable- but the game I want to run does demand that not every enemy will have the perfect tactics to deal with the characters, which means I do, more often than not, have to attack a character's strong suit.
Despite what my first post may have you believe, some of the characters in my game are troublesome because they're NOT super-effective. I'll go over my party in order from "least frustrating" to most, and explain the issues I'm having with each one.
Case Study #1, "Insidious".
"Insidious" is a Tiefling Ninja. Fully aware that his choices weren't "optimal", his player opted to try and make his character cool and interesting.*
*Not really invoking the Stormwind debate here, I know a powerful character does not necessarily detract from being fun to play with- but the player DID make certain choices to support his concept, as opposed to make his character more effective in combat.
My players are fans of anime, and Insidious's player is no exception- having recently watched Black Butler, he decided to try and make a devil...ish...combat butler.
Insidious has decent Intelligence and Charisma, and very high Dexterity...but not much else. He ended up with a very low Constitution, despite the warnings of the group at large (an 8!?), which has been the cause of his (many) deaths- it's become something of a running gag of late, much to my dismay.
The player has been taking it very well, but it bothers me that the instant he stops prancing about the battlefield invisibly, he is typically turned into fine red mist.
Even with Sneak Attack, his damage rarely exceeds 20 points a turn, and he often has to spend an entire turn doing nothing but setting up his next turn.
My issues with him are as follows: low hit points. Low "death threshold". Mediocre damage that takes a lot of setup. Low AC (even with a 20 Dex, he has the lowest AC in the party). Bad luck- he NEVER makes saving throws.
He's a big part of my issue with using enemies that can appropriately challenge the other party members, because such enemies are basically a death sentence to him.
Case study #2: Marek THE UNREASONABLE.
Marek THE UNREASONABLE (it's a thing- you have to say the full name or he won't respond to you) is a Half-Orc Paladin. His stated goal is to be the party's "tank", but he has neither the highest AC, nor the best hit points.
Having traded away his Mercies for a dubious ability to buff AC's of adjacent allies (they don't need the buff, and nobody ever stays next to him anyways), he mostly defends by placing himself in the most likely position to be attacked.
This has led to him falling to negative hit points in about half of his battles. "Man, that Dire Tiger looks like it's going to charge...I'll stand 10' in front of the party!"
Marek's player has a lot of fun roleplaying, but it's obvious he's finding the battles to be tedious, at best. I've suggested a better Archetype (Sacred Shield sounds like a much better deal than Divine Defender), but he has this "build" in mind that he's planned out to very high levels, and is convinced will eventually pay off. In the interim, he has very weak offense, being a sword & board melee character, and he just keeps getting flattened (due to his own tactics).
I just don't know what to do- I feel bad every time he gets wthbbqpwned for doing something that is generally positive. It doesn't help that my group isn't very teamwork oriented, which I think is the biggest issue-
They don't flank. They rarely bother to cast buff spells on allies unless they can see the fight coming a mile away. The Oracle is dismissive of healing in combat, preferring to run up and melee things. They each made their character without any input from the other players, other than "so who is going to be the healer?". And in battle, they each choose their own target, rather than focus fire, and scatter to the far corners of the battlefield.
I've tried to cure them of this problem, but every time I up the ante, thinking to force them to pull together, they either "prove" their "tactics" are just fine by winning handily...or they start dropping like flies and I get complaints about the encounters being too tough.
Why there was this dragon fight...no, that's not relevant now. Moving on.
That has always been the problem with overspecialized characters, going back to 3.0. They end up leaving the non-specialized rest of the group in the dust in their field of expertise and you, as the GM, feel obligated to threaten them once in a while. Which results often in the non-specialized characters getting the brunt of your "threaten the specialist" monster, while the actual target gets off with light bruises.
The only way to deal with them is to not try to out-optimize them at their own game, but to rather attack them in the ways they are vulnerable. An example:
In my current Jade Regent campaign, I got one player who also has specialized in upping his armor class to nigh-unhittable numbers. His CMD and reflex save, however, are not exactly up to par, so it is very possible to hit him there, without unduly penalizing the rest of the party for not also maxing their armor class.
#3: Zarbon.
Zarbon is a Battle Oracle. Zarbon seems to think he is a front-line melee warrior, despite having lower hit points, less Feats, and a lower BAB. When the group heard that Zarbon's player was going to be an Oracle, they immediately filed him under "healer" and didn't think much about how to restore hit points to the party.
Zarbon had other ideas. He's convinced himself that "Oracle-zilla" is a thing, and mostly uses his spell slots to buff himself. This has the issue that he tends to spend multiple rounds in combat doing nothing to the enemies.
At low levels, he would defeat foes in one hit from his greatsword, but at level 6, his only multiattack is Cleave, enemies rarely mob him so he can use it (this annoys him) and they no longer have the sense to die in 1-2 turns (this also annoys him).
In addition, he has layered on armor, enhancement, natural armor, and even deflection (it was almost sad when the party found a Ring of Protection, and he demanded it because "I'm the healer, you need to keep me alive!") to having the highest base AC in the party.
Which is why enemies don't tend to mob him- there are bigger threats, and they feel they can pry him out of his tin can later. Which the player has stated, more than once, is "unfair" because I'm apparently actively conspiring against his fun.
I'm a firm believer that a player should be allowed to have a "cool thing", and I try not to take that away from him. But apparently what he wants is to be mobbed by ineffectual foes that he can mow down like wheat.
When enemies do attack him directly, they rarely hit. When they do, I'm rewarded with a cry of disbelief from his player (and occasionally comments like "why do I even WEAR armor?!". And when I use other tactics, like grapple, he just gripes about "stupid broken maneuvers".
Man, writing that, he sounds like a whining brat. I guess he can be, but a lot of the time, he's just annoyed that too much time is spent on rule-checking special maneuvers and resolving them, which is a valid concern. He just wants to swing his sword, why does it take 20 minutes before he can do just that?
Main issue is: enemies have no good reason and a lot of bad ones to directly confront his character, tactics that work well against his strengths basically ignore them, and slow down play.
It sounds like your team is fighting as specialized individuals. Rather than flinging a tougher encounter at them to force them to adapt, why not change them through example? Have them combat an NPC party of your own design who use the tactics you think the group should be using. Have their classes and builds designed to work together, have them use flanking and other tactics... if you're really confident that your tactics will prevail, make the NPC party lower-level than the PCs to rub it in their face, but that's up to you based on how irritating they've been. Alternatively, have them forced to work with or at least watch another NPC party do their thing. Perhaps have the PCs go into a dungeon which turns out to be a two-group race for the treasure, with windows or scrying pools or whatever so each side can see how the other is doing at certain points.
EDIT: Also; you've complained about 'rocket tag'. What level is this campaign at? At higher levels it can become inevitable; it might be time to start again, or hit the PCs with some GM-fiat de-levelling ray.
#4, Emmy, the Sorceress.
Of all my players, Emmy is the one with the most experience, and is probably the most effective overall. Emmy sits in the background, often out of the reach of any serious threat, laughs at monsters who wear this imaginary thing called "armor", and causes them to implode when they (all too often) fail to get anywhere near her save DC's.
Basically, she's a full spellcaster, and that's the main problem. I got nothing against spellcasting, I'm fully happy to have someone using magic effectively in my game. The problem is like Zarbon, but worse.
A LOT of enemies in Pathfinder seem designed to give a Wizard a bad day. Immunity, Resistance, Spell Resistance, Grapple, excessive reach, and ability to hit the heights of Sorcerer AC at will- I've had to carefully prune the monsters I use just so every fight doesn't have something guaranteed to counter her.
And every time she finds a way around one hurdle, a new one manifests. You see, Emmy's player normally uses melee-based characters, and isn't as used to the trials facing a spellcaster.
I really want to let her do her thing, but too often, her spells trivialize my encounters, and the only good options are not to let her do ANYTHING. It feels like playing rocket tag, and I know it's only going to get worse.
I'm not sure what to really do about it- I've been mainly mixing groups of enemies so that there's always someone she can use her spells on, so the melee guys can tackle anything with spell resistance, but when I do that, the player cheerfully tells the party after every battle that she was barely hurt when they're all crying for heals!
Magnuskn, GM, thanks for your comments. I'll reply to them once I've discussed my biggest headache.
But first, #5, Laromyn. Laromyn is an archer. Class isn't really relevant, save that he shoots arrows. Lots of arrows. From as far from melee as possible, as any sane archer would do.
This generally means I have to specially place a monster in any encounter to be able to leap out of nowhere to attack him (difficult, due to high Perception) or to use ranged attacks that can hit him (difficult due to party melee).
His effectiveness has sharply upticked of late as well- everyone used to laugh at how his arrows didn't seem to do much damage, but last night he revealed his new ability to fire 4 shots a round, and for effective damage (thanks to a quiver of 50 Shock arrows and bleed damage).
I was taken aback as well, because suddenly his character is a serious threat, and I'm not sure how to really combat him. I've had a Bearded Devil teleport adjacent to him, and I used limited visibility, but now he has a new bow that ignores concealment, so really, nothing short of parking a serious melee enemy in his grill seems to work (and I can't always pull that off, especially with Emmy's new tactic of punting enemies with force spheres...blasts...I really need to look up that spell. It's basically Improved Scorching Ray +Bull Rush +Trip).
Sure I could use Wind Wall or something, but that just says "ha ha, you brought a knife to a nuke fight!"
And now my biggest headache.
To my eternal surprise, it's a Monk?!
#6, Lalla.
Lalla is a Monk who dumped Strength. Apparently, her player thought that getting an Agile weapon or Amulet would happen almost immediately, which meant everyone had to endure 2 levels of her not doing much, her player griping about the weaknesses of the Monk class, and how this was somehow MY fault for not "properly equipping the party".
Once the cash was present, the party promptly shut her up by purchasing an Amulet of Mighty (Agile) Blows. Suddenly, she was kung fu kicking monsters for serious (at least, compared to the Paladin or the Rogue) damage, and things were good.
For a little while.
Now I'm finding myself annoyed with this character. She never fails a saving throw. Ever. Half damage on a miss? Evasion.
Armor Class? Pshaw, she's invested in Crane Style and has Deflect Arrows, so even if she IS hit, nope, sorry, didn't happen. She always fights defensively, it rarely seems to cause her to miss, and hitting her will in a level or two (as near as I can tell) will be improbable, as her modified AC will be higher than the Oracle's.
Now I know, an anecdotal case of a Monk being effective is dubious (and in many circles should be hailed as a miracle)...but I've gone from pleasantly surprised to downright irritated.
Touch AC? Yeah right, it's like 1 point lower than her regular AC. Not to mention her Archetype has a mechanic that I find irritating.
She's a Martial Artist, and she can do this thing for free every turn that lets her make a check to ignore an enemy's DR...OR give her a big AC boost. At first I thought "well that's neat", but what I didn't realize is how TRIVIAL the check is!
When facing a CR 11 enemy, 5 levels higher than she was, she got a +4 to AC for rolling an 11 on a d20. An 1l?
Again, yes, I'm perfectly aware that Monks aren't great. Martial Artists are far from the strongest Monks. And that, in the grand scheme of things, exploiting weakness is definitely not top tier.
That having been said, I really am up against an almost perfect defense- faced with a "normal" (CR 6-7), she can only be hit on a 20, and if she IS hit, she just goes "no, try again".
I've been trying to be calm, secure in the knowledge that things will level off, monsters will get stronger, and her damage won't...but that just means I'm going to have really long combats in my future.
And in the short run? A character who seems immune to many of the problems the others face. Her only real weakness is CMD, and even then, that's not even a given, due to how many things buff it.
The best tactic I've had is for enemies to try to avoid her like the plague, denying her a full attack, but again, that just makes the combats DRAG ON ENDLESSLY.
I feel like I've been confronted with a fiendish puzzle box, and my game will stop being fun if I don't find a way to solve it without resorting to a sledgehammer!
That has always been the problem with overspecialized characters, going back to 3.0. They end up leaving the non-specialized rest of the group in the dust in their field of expertise and you, as the GM, feel obligated to threaten them once in a while. Which results often in the non-specialized characters getting the brunt of your "threaten the specialist" monster, while the actual target gets off with light bruises.
The only way to deal with them is to not try to out-optimize them at their own game, but to rather attack them in the ways they are vulnerable. An example:
In my current Jade Regent campaign, I got one player who also has specialized in upping his armor class to nigh-unhittable numbers. His CMD and reflex save, however, are not exactly up to par, so it is very possible to hit him there, without unduly penalizing the rest of the party for not also maxing their armor class.
Which is what I've been trying to do. Obviously the Oracle doesn't have the greatest saves around- he's focused most of his attention on Strength and Charisma. On the other hand, currently, a lot of the save DC's monsters have aren't great at this level, so I generally have to use a LOT of saving throws, or much stronger enemies to make a dent. Worse, a lot of effects that happen on a failed save translate into "stop having fun now and go check facebook".
Not to mention I have two characters (the Paladin and the Monk) who don't seem to understand the concept of "high save DC's"...as in, I've yet to see them fail a save yet!
It sounds like your team is fighting as specialized individuals. Rather than flinging a tougher encounter at them to force them to adapt, why not change them through example? Have them combat an NPC party of your own design who use the tactics you think the group should be using. Have their classes and builds designed to work together, have them use flanking and other tactics... if you're really confident that your tactics will prevail, make the NPC party lower-level than the PCs to rub it in their face, but that's up to you based on how irritating they've been. Alternatively, have them forced to work with or at least watch another NPC party do their thing. Perhaps have the PCs go into a dungeon which turns out to be a two-group race for the treasure, with windows or scrying pools or whatever so each side can see how the other is doing at certain points.
EDIT: Also; you've complained about 'rocket tag'. What level is this campaign at? At higher levels it can become inevitable; it might be time to start again, or hit the PCs with some GM-fiat de-levelling ray.
I've used the first solution before in the past. Unfortunately, having the enemies work like a well-oiled machine is a much simpler task for the DM, because you can put any amount of planning into the effort as you like.
As a player, I've had a lot more difficulties with getting my fellow players to follow a plan, and the tactical situation can change radically from one turn to the next.
There are times when it's appropriate, of course, but I can't do this all the time, especially when the party deals with low intelligence foes who act on a much more instinctive level.
Also, it really does just exacerbate the issue "look guys, this thing you seem to suck at? My monsters are way better at it, which makes you suck more!"
^_^
On to your edit, well, the issue is that they are level SIX. I'm not sure why I'm running into these woes so early. I double checked party wealth first, and it's a little high, but not by much. The party's point-buy is higher, but that was mostly because I didn't want to see a pack of SAD characters, and actively encouraged things like Paladins and Monks, and I've taken this into account by increasing the CR of foes slightly.
That might be part of the problem, but it never cropped up like this when I DM'd in 3.5. There does seem to be a lot more "use stat X to buff Y" going on in PF than I recall, so maybe that's it. I mean, that stuff was in 3.5 too, but it was generally more obscure, like Fist of the Forest.
I plan on it, but I wanted to really figure out what all the actual problems are before I brought it to the table. I mean, saying to someone "ah yes, all the choices you made are legal. However, your AC is too high, so you have to make new ones" isn't really something I feel comfortable with.
I pride myself on being a fair DM, and letting my players using all legal options- in the past, I used to houserule just about everything, and jump on anything that seemed suspicious, but that made the game a lot less fun, since I was basically saying "play MY way, or not at all".
EDIT: heading out for now, BBL.
If the group over specializes in combat then it's time to throw other challenges at them.
Environmental hazards are deadly if ignored like walking blindly into a hot desert without the right provisions. Not all challenges are combat and can be just as deadly.
Example 1: Taking a long ship voyage across the sea and some event kills the crew leaving only the party to control the ship. Does anybody know how to work a ship? Does anybody know how to navigate open waters?
Example 2: Party has to run a proving grounds to show there worth to a tribe. These grounds must be run with no equipment other then mundane gear provided by the tribe. The proving grounds can have puzzles, traps, monsters, anti-magic fields, etc. Does not have to be lethal but can be if players are careless.
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Been there done all that (not with this particular group of classes but these issues you are running into are not hard to do with a whole slew of classes) What has worked well for me in the past is to vary up the encounters.
You want short corridors and small rooms for a little while. Then have a boat adventure. follow that up with a mountain climb oh and maybe an active volcano.
Also don't hesitate to split them up now and then (not to often or the others will be super bored) Maybe have one who has drawn some negative attention from someone important get targeted by an Assassin. They would never attack while the party is all grouped up, fully healed and loaded with spells. But they might make a visit at the inn...in the middle of the night, after a tough day of adventuring. Or perhaps they wait until the party has used a bunch of resources on a tough fight then drop in unexpectedly.
The key is to keep them on their toes, and to some degree yourself on your toes. Some will fail miserably. Some will be memorable, some will be ho-hum. Enjoy that ride.
I suspect that the group really isn't doing as much damage as they could at the level they are at. Have stuff with lots of hitpoints and DR. let them hit it and hit it and it just withstand. Or run up the monster AC's. You can't hit it either. Though be careful not to get into a nahnahnah nah nah fight.
Players have high AC?
Spells targeting their weak saves.
Low touch AC? Gunslingers!
The Monk? Is he good at anything other than defense? No, Ignore him! Then kill any squishies!
Make your players realize that overly specializing into defense without equally raising your offense is a terribly plan.
Also, see this thread here.
So you've got two superstars, one potential power house with weak tactics, and two mooks in the party. Challenging the stars means wiping the mooks.
I'd look to Joss Whedon for inspiration. He specializes in shows about one or two powerhouses surrounded by less/not powerful support. Up the roleplay; giving the support storylines of their own to pursue and enjoy. Make sure encounters have a mix of badasses for the A team, and mooks of their own so the B team can shine, too. Along the same lines, you could (gasp) split the party. Give time sensitive multiple objectives, so they can each have appropriate challenge levels.
I plan on it, but I wanted to really figure out what all the actual problems are before I brought it to the table. I mean, saying to someone "ah yes, all the choices you made are legal. However, your AC is too high, so you have to make new ones" isn't really something I feel comfortable with.
I pride myself on being a fair DM, and letting my players using all legal options- in the past, I used to houserule just about everything, and jump on anything that seemed suspicious, but that made the game a lot less fun, since I was basically saying "play MY way, or not at all".
EDIT: heading out for now, BBL.
So here is what I see from your group.
1. You have 6 players. Thats 2 more then the game expects. Sure the rules says 4-5, but thats crap, the 5th player makes a huge difference, and the 6th makes even more.
2. All of your guys fight. Another problem against the base assumption of the game. The base assumption for the game is the party is made up of a guy who fights really well, a guy who sort of fights and casts divine spells, a guy who sort of fights and is skill full, and a guy who has a magic missile in his back pocket but is mostly a big bag of tricks.
Every character in your party does HP damage. This is why your game is rocket tag. Against the fighter wizard rogue cleric base assumption your party is wildly unbalanced. Thats not to say they or you are 'doing it wrong' but what it does mean is you have to adapt.
3. What is your stat generation method? it sounds to me like (especially for the monk) you arent using 15 point buy. If you arent, then the players are more powerful then the game assumes they are.
4. Different levels of optimization. Your ninja is a flavor based character who is kind of effective but not really. Your monk is a kind of cheesy (i really dislike the agile weapon property personally) very optimized charager. Then you have a bunch in between. The monk is like an 8 in optimization, and the rogue is like a 3. (arbitrary number choices for the purpose of explanation)
If everyone was around the same number, its not a problem. When one or more players differ wildly, its a problem. What is a challenge for one is too dangerous for the other, what is reasonable for one is a cakewalk for the other.
5. Players seem to have access to whatever magical items they want? This can be problematic in that sufficient magic will literally counter any weakness a character has, making optimization all the more problematic.
General solutions:
1. Talk to the ninja, paladin and the monk especially(bur really everyone) and find a way to bring them closer to the median in terms of optimization. You simply cant have that kind of divergence in your party if you want combat encounters to be fun for everyone. Either help the less optimized character be better, or give them specialized gear or what have you, or ask the more optimized characters to tone it down for the sake of a good game. These people are presumably your friends, work something out as friends.
2. More monsters. With this party especially but in the game in general, never EVER have a single enemy encounter. Ever. Seriously dont do it. You have too much artillery on the party side, they need to have their attention split. You want a harder encounter, make there 5 monsters instead of 2. Just go ahead and photocopy them. Thats fine, but dont just put one really stompy sugger. Your party is probably close to effective 3 levels higher then whatever their APL is.
So if they are level 7, treat them as a level 10 party, just dont do it with singular monsters. Because with one monster, its either overwhelmed by the action economy, and the ludicrous amount of damage this party can put out, or its too much of a threat to any one single party member. But if you have 10 enemies in an encounter, only 1 or two can go after the more squishy party members, while the monk takes on like 3 or 4. This allows you to compensate for the difference in power and combate effectiveness.
2a - Minions, minions are awesome. Seriously, use minions. Aid another is your friend against high ac pcs. If the monk is surrounded, 4 can be aiding and 4 can be attacking. And just about anything can hit the 10 AC to aid. So they can be relatively weak monsters/enemies.
There are several benefits to that. 1 your main guys can get shots in on the guys with really high acs without being a crazy high CR on their own. 2 your cleric and monk and maybe even paladin get to feel awesome mowing through lots of badguys. Attention is diverted between lots of foes, making sure that the powerful offensive options of the party are not overwhelming key badguys (extra points if its not immediately obvious who the important badguys are).
3. Non-combat encounters. This is particularly for the ninja. Ninjas have lots of cool skills and abilities. Figure out something where he can really shine that isnt neccesarily solved by stabing things.
4. Direct the sorceror to battlefield control, buff and debuff spells as opposed to 'win button' spells. This is a conversation to have with them, but in general, a really effective caster either trivializes an encounter or the enemy makes their saves. This is somewhat aleviated by solution 2, as more monsters means that the caster probably cant take them all out with one or two spells, but in general talk to the player about their spell selection, and see what you can do to make it more reliable but less "i win'. (hint conjuration spells and transmutation buffs are great for this) If they arent willing to work with you on that then let them know they will have to deal with the ever escalating defenses that will counter alot of their most effective spells, because thats pretty much how magic works in this game.
In general there are lots of ways to work around these problems, but first and foremost you have to understand why there are issues in the first place. You have what appear to be characters over the baseline in terms of individual power, you have 6 players as opposed to 4, and all of them fight instead of just 2 or 3. Keep that in mind and make your combat encounters work for that.
This is a tad off topic but the fact that you players beat a very high CR encounter could have nothing to do with high AC. It is likely it has more to do with the fact that you have a 6 person party that fought a single target.
Single target encounters are bad in this system (I really wish they would stop putting them in APs.) and often a party can win by the lop sided action economy alone. Even more likely with an over sized group.
I have also had some things like this.
Power disparity - Need to have a talk with the players. If you have some players building characters from some concept (novel, comic, movie, etc…) that doesn’t translate real well into PF mechanics and some players going over every book to build the ultimate combat machine, well you will always have problems.
Vary things up. Not just monsters to be fought, but everything. Young Wilbur is on his quest to become an adult hero, you are supposed to keep him alive without anyone (including Wilbur) knowing you are doing so. The Arthulk and Grenled families will be at the festival, they hate each other, you need to keep a fight from breaking out. The Corleens seem to always know what we’ve got planned, but as far as we can tell they don’t have a spy here, how are they getting the information. Trek through the swamp or jungle canopy (no heavy armor). Etc…
In character and specifically planned for the PC’s capabilities. Our group recently. The PC’s had upset the plans of a very powerful ruling necromancer. They were pretty sure they couldn’t go after him directly (they were mostly correct). He had some very sneaky spies following them, observing their combats, and then teleporting safely away. After a few fights, the BBEG would load up a force specifically designed to counter and pound on 1 of the PC’s. After a few more, he would load up another group to go after a different PC’s. Then toward the end, he sent out a group with capabilities to specifically counter everyone. Wind walls, communal resist energy, touch-no-save wands, potions of spider climb, deeper darkness, improved invisible sorcerers casing repeated targeted dispel magic (to take down buffs), wand of create pit, on the PC’s ship so can’t use continuous fireball and wall of fire, grapplers for the casters, etc…
I very much tried to keep track of what the PC’s actually could be observed doing during all the fights. The sorc that only used fire spells for 7 encounters in a row. The archer paladin who is nearly helpless when he can’t shoot at things. The shadow dancer that always hides to axe something in the back. The witch that loves web spells.
Then I had the necromancer put some potions, scrolls, and wands to specifically target their weaknesses or take away their strengths. Same with the opponents. Invisible silent opponents to rush casters. Invisible archers that just hold their actions to shoot at the witch when casting. Traps/ambushes around their own caster who do have see invisible running.
Worked pretty well. The archer has decided to put some of his money into a pretty decent backup melee weapon. The sorc has decided to learn a few non-fire spells.
Don’t use single bad guy fights. Action economy will kill him or he suddenly has capabilities the PC’s can’t survive.
Don’t add a bunch of low level mooks. They either go down too fast to a single AoA spell or the PC’s can just ignore them.
Add mid-level combatants. If they are 6th level, leave the same 8-10 level badguy originally planned. If you add 2 dozen goblins, they will just ignore them. But if you add say 6-8 sneaky bugbears with nets, they are dangerous enough the PC’s can’t ignore them. But are unlikely to wipe out the PC’s.
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But first, #5, Laromyn. Laromyn is an archer. Class isn't really relevant, save that he shoots arrows. Lots of arrows. From as far from melee as possible, as any sane archer would do.
You shouldn't allow all your encounters (or even a significant number of them) to take place in an area where the archer can stand "off the battlemat" and peck away at the melee. You should control the environment in most of your encounters (the exceptions being times when the party ambushes or has ample time to prepare), so set up encounters where the archer is within charging range of melee (30' or less is great). He can stand apart, but not out of immediate danger. When he is far off, don't forget range penalties.
Also, echoing what Kolokotroni said: minions and magic-marts. Add minions or multiples to every encounter. It also sounds like your PCs are gaining access to whatever magic items they want, which is a problem because they'll compensate for the weaknesses with magic items (like the Monk's agile AoMF and the Archer's bow of negate concealment).
-Skeld
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Kobolds. There is no problem that cannot be solved through sufficient application of kobolds.
"They're just kobolds!"
Yes, but kobolds are insidious little trap-builders that live in cramped quarters where anything bigger than a halfling (or a kobold) is going to be hard-pressed to fight with anything but a dagger, Dexterity bonus to AC does not apply, and ranged combat is right out. Deflect arrows? With what, your teeth?
Seriously, a good kobold lair is sufficient to remove half or your problems right off the bat.
Oh, and another thing about kobolds; they breed like rabbits! There are LOTS of them. And they attack en masse.
Seek out the 2nd edition D&D boxed set Dragon Mountain for a fine example of what a lair of kobolds can do to a moderate- to high-level party.
Back for a sec- first, thanks for the replies everyone, it's helping me get a clearer picture of what needs to be done. Couple things I want to touch on:
1-varying encounters. It's true that my game has a lot of combat right now. I've found in the past that non-combat challenges aren't always fun for everyone. I'm definitely going to try more of them in the future, but some classes have limited skills/non-combat abilities which makes their players feel less capable of participating.
That's always been a big thing with me- in a game, I don't need to be a superstar, but I really do want to feel like I'm doing my part, not going "oh, I'm just a Fighter, so there's not much I can do unless you need something heavy moved."
Obviously, as a DM, you have to make opportunities and occasionally forget that the Barbarian has the Charisma of a block of wood, but it's hard for some people to disassociate; they don't think "my character is a real person", they think "my character only has a +6 Intimidate and the Sorcerer has a +19".
2-As for "magic-mart", that's not a simple issue. I know a lot of GM's who aren't too keen on letting players have the items they want (or possibly need). I've never been too keen on this approach simply because many magic items are too situational and not really worth their gold piece values. Too often, the DM says "and you find this magic spoon that means you'll never need to worry about food again!", to which the players respond "yes yes, we have a cleric who can create food and water, so that's getting sold for cash so we can buy real items".
And then the GM is shocked that the players don't appreciate the treasure they're getting!
I've been told that the system math assumes the existence of certain items, and expects players to get them eventually. If this is the case, then I'm not sure if I should deny them the ability to get the things their WBL says they can afford- I can see the downside, in that, yes, if someone wants to focus on high AC they can quickly get magic armor, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor and so forth, and it will take awhile for the prices of upgrading such things to set in. Which I do see is part of the problem I'm having here.
But I look at the trade-off, where the players are constantly scraping by, wondering why it's so hard to get that neat Robe of Arcane Heritage when all they have is a Circlet of Persuasion, and they don't seem too happy about it...
Sorry, I'm thinking about this as I type, and I'm coming to a conclusion that yes, maybe I am being too permissive, and I need to find a happy medium. Because while it's very cool to get the thing that you wanted, if you get everything you want, then magic items stop really being that cool or special.
Food for thought, if nothing else.
Kobolds. There is no problem that cannot be solved through sufficient application of kobolds.
"They're just kobolds!"
Yes, but kobolds are insidious little trap-builders that live in cramped quarters where anything bigger than a halfling (or a kobold) is going to be hard-pressed to fight with anything but a dagger, Dexterity bonus to AC does not apply, and ranged combat is right out. Deflect arrows? With what, your teeth?
Seriously, a good kobold lair is sufficient to remove half or your problems right off the bat.
Oh, and another thing about kobolds; they breed like rabbits! There are LOTS of them. And they attack en masse.
Seek out the 2nd edition D&D boxed set Dragon Mountain for a fine example of what a lair of kobolds can do to a moderate- to high-level party.
Well, that used to be true, at least, when AC tended to be a lot harder to improve. I do recall Dragon Mountain fondly, and yes, forcing the party to fight in kobold-sized tunnels, using weapons they normally wouldn't (hard to use a greatsword in a tunnel less than 5' wide, here, try this spear!), let alone the copious amounts of tricks and traps.
Unfortunately, the last time I tried running a "classic" adventure in a modern version of "D&D" (White Plume Mountain, if you're curious), I found it rather lacking. Characters have more bells and whistles now to ward off such dangers, and "killer traps" tend to derail an entire adventure. That's not to say a mob of well-prepared enemies can't be lethal (just imagining a gang of kobold slingers with flaming tar brings a smile to my face), but there's also a lot of potential for encounters like that to fall flat, too.
But I do think adding a few low-CR monsters to a large encounter who don't do much more than fire poison darts from blowguns (at a safe distance) can't hurt as an experiment...
Your battle Oracle is craving the opportunity to feel powerful and I can understand that. It validates their choice in their minds. I would suggest taking a page from 4th edition to help stoke that fire. Of the rules from 4th edition there were only two things that I feel were done just right. The first is the rule of, "Say yes more than no," when a player tries to take an action. However, the one I am focusing on here is the Minions. These weak little buggers could be slapped together in mass and they barely impacted the CR of the fight. They all had a single HP and used the average AC and Attack numbers for that level. The maximum damage they could do is the lowest possible number that attack would normally do (i.e. fighting with a short sword with no str bonus the minion would always do 1 point of damage, no matter what). A mob of these bad boys swarms around the Oracle who then swings with the greatsword, starts a cleave chain, and feels good when the Oracle is standing tall among a field of bodies. This should make them feel plenty good about their choices while not overwhelming the party.
I will leave the AC counter answers to the experts. My only experience with high AC is at level 15 where things can still perform quite well.
... I've found in the past that non-combat challenges aren't always fun for everyone. I'm definitely going to try more of them in the future, but some classes have limited skills/non-combat abilities which makes their players feel less capable of participating.
That's always been a big thing with me- in a game, I don't need to be a superstar, but I really do want to feel like I'm doing my part, not going "oh, I'm just a Fighter, so there's not much I can do unless you need something heavy moved."
Obviously, as a DM, you have to make opportunities and occasionally forget that the Barbarian has the Charisma of a block of wood, but it's hard for some people to disassociate; they don't think "my character is a real person", they think "my character only has a +6 Intimidate and the Sorcerer has a +19"...
Both as a GM or as a fellow player. I try to get people to not make such one dimensional characters. "This campaign will have stuff other than just combat. If you don't want to have your PC sitting around with nothing to do for a significant portion of the time, make sure he can do something other than fight." When ever anyone asks for help with a build, I try to get them to not dump all the mental stats.
You want a low charisma ok but maybe get your wisdom at 12 (also helps your will save), get a trait to make sense motive a class skill, and put a few points into it. Then you are not the negotiator, but maybe you notice that the other guy is lying to your sorc who tends to believe everything he hears.Gonna dump into so you have no skill points? Raise your cha a bit so you are at least a nice guy and can talk to people.
Try putting a few skill points into a knowledge or two to identify monster weaknesses or gather information.
Personally, I feel like pretty much any build should be able to afford a trait, a few skill points, a couple of ability points, and/or a feat to at least 1 or 2 non-combat things. Like knowledge local, sense motive, disguise, lingustics, survival, etc... If your build can't afford to put devote any resources to anything except the highest DC/DPR, then I would say it is too specialized. Meaning it is only useful in less than half the adventure time.
Some groups play differently. "The bard has everything non-combat covered." Then they all just sit there while anything happens that isn't a fight. I don't personally like that. To me, it is boring.