Mutliclassing a Bard - Is it worth it?

[Derek Weil]

I've been working on a first level bard, and I'm trying to map out his progression a bit. I'm going for a plain vanilla bard class (no archeaologist, etc.). I love the skill points and support casting, but I'm wondering how to make him a little more useful as a melee contributor on occasion.

Now rogue gets sneak attack. Maybe there's a bard archetype that does, too.

Should I think about dipping a level of rogue, or maybe even a level of fighter? With the fighter dip, I could get enough feats to make a simple Two-weapon build functional, I think. With rogue, I'd of course get the sneak attack bonus, but sacrifice some BAB.

I'm kind of liking the fighter dip, because as a human I'll get three feats at second level, is that correct?

Any ideas for multi-classing with a martial are welcome. Maybe ranger would be a better fit?

[ArmouredMonk13]

There is a bard archetype somewhere that gives you sneak attack somewhere, so I'd go with that taking dips into fighter. You wouldn't get 3 feats at 2nd level, you'd get 2 feats at first level (level 1 feat and human feat) and a feat at 2nd level (Fighter bonus feat).

[chaoseffect]

If you go Bard 1/Fighter 1, then yes you'll have 3 feats total at level 2. I would suggest against multi-classing personally. If you want to be a melee combatant that can also cast spells, then check out the Dervish of Dawn archetype. Your performance only affects you, but it is twice as effective.

There are two great bard feats from the Factions guide, Master Performer (pre-reqs: Extra Performance, some faction req which you could see about being handdwaved since your game doesn't use it) and Grand Master Performer (prereqs: Master Performer, faction req, level 8). Each gives you a +1 to your bard song. With Dervish of Dawn that would essentially give you another +4 hit and damage.

[Psion-Psycho]

I too am against multi-classing as well but because you need to know what you are doing and have the patience to get there.

Rogue is like monk as in you need to have some decent system mastery and compitant group dynamics in order to make it work. With that said i strongly dis-advise dipping into it as a bard.

A good dip for bard is Oracle and Paladin. Oracle fir there Lore Mastery's Sidestep Secret Revelation to use Cha instead of Dex for your Ref saves and AC. Paladin for there ability at level 2 to add Cha to all saves and Lay on Hands is a great use of a swift action. If going that wrought and you are Human then picking up the Racial Heritage feat to become a Kobold is beneficial. Racial Heritage Kobold will allow you to qualify for Kobold Confidence which allows you to use your Cha instead of Con for fort saves and determine how far in the negatives you can go before dying.

[Bomanz]

I played until lvl 15 a multiclass bard/rogue. I had a lot of fun with it.

The build focused on buffing and adding to his melee.

I used a long spear for reach.

I used Lunge as a feat (once I could get it)

I used the Gang Up feat (party had 3 other melee, so easy for me to take a 5 foot step, lunge, then use my reach for 20 feet reach, and as long as the bad guy had 2 of my people threatening him, I got SA damage)

I was uber skill guy

I spent 1-2 round buffing, sometimes 3 depending on the fight, then usually waded in with d8+strength + arcane strike + bard song + power attack (zomg I had a str 14!!!111one1!) and then Sneak Attack for surprising amount of damage, usually was the killing blow after everyone else had cut it down low enough.

I think you would be very pleasantly surprised.

Is it "optimal"???

No, but who cares, its fun and versatile.

[ngc7293]

You could try multiclassing an Arcane Duelist with a Gunslinger. People always suggest Mysterious Stranger because of the Charisma, but I am not so sure because of the loss of Quick clear. But there are spells to fix that. The AD's 5th level ability would allow them to have a bonded Gun. I think their other abilities like blade thirst would work with gun ammo.

[Derek Weil]

Thanks folks, these are some very interesting ideas!

[Thymus Vulgaris]

Having no experience multiclassing, I'd just like to advice against a two-weapon build for a bard. With one weapon in each hand, how are you going to cast spells?

[Atarlost]

It is never worth it to multiclass a bard unless you're going into battle herald. You lose more off of inspire courage than you gain from any affordable amount of another class.

And TWF is weak for bards. You need to have +10* non-strength non-weapon damage per hit before it's worth it by the power attack standard and bards can't get that until level 13 and that using a 4th level spell with a round/level duration. It's better with double slice and two weapon rend, but a TWF bard isn't going to have the strength for the former or the BAB to get the latter at a reasonable level.

Bards should use a two handed weapon or a bow. Well, actually a one handed weapon wielded in two hands. I recommend getting the quickdraw feat and a quickdraw shield so you can wield or stow it as a free action and hit two handed or cast spells during your turn while enjoying the benefits of the best AC of anyone able to cast mirror image when it's not your turn. Or you can use a buckler and save a feat but take -1 to your two handed attack rolls.

*

Spoiler:

You take -2 to attack and lose approximately +1 worth of enhancement splitting your budget between two weapons for -3 attack and -1 damage. When using TWF or a two handed weapon power attack trades attack for damage at a 1:3 ratio so the off-hand weapon needs to add 10 damage, and it's not doing so from strength or dice or power attack.

[Calybos1]

Getting every Knowledge skill in the game in-class? TOTALLY worth it.

Now, what's all this stuff about weapon styles?

[TGMaxMaxer]

I multi-classed my bard, but that's because he's a primary caster/face/skill monkey, not for combat.

Single level dip into crossblooded Fey/Whatever Sorc, +2 DC for all compulsions (read the bard list and find any useful spell with a saving throw that won't apply to :P) access to all the wands you don't get yourself, a couple of utility spells you can spam a few times a day, etc.

If I was gonna go martial, I'd go Lore Warden fighter level 2. 3 feats, not a big loss on skills.

[Sowde Da'aro]

our party leader was a gnome bard/cavilier. at low levels his pony was doing more dam then my fighter, though my fighter was optimized for tripping and battle field control, but still... ola was awesome

[calagnar]

I recommend not multiclassing bard. Unless you have a high level of system mastery. Multiclassing is normally not a good idea.

[Charlie Bell]

I have played a straight melee bard to 15th level. I also recommend against multiclassing to improve your melee capability. Your bard stuff alone will improve your fighting capability. Delaying higher level spell acquisition and inspire courage bonuses is generally not worth it. With inspire courage, you are contributing every time anyone hits, and especially every time anyone hits by a margin less than or equal to your inspire courage bonus.

If you do want to improve your melee effectiveness, go rapier for higher crits. All your buffs provide static bonuses to damage that all get multiplied on crits. Think keen agile rapier plus Weapon Finesse and Arcane Strike. You will hit and hit hard.

Archery is a better route if you are human, primarily because Rapid Shot and Manyshot will eventually let you stack all those buff bonuses on a bunch of arrows per round. If you are not human it just takes longer to pick up all the feats. Probably something like:

H: PBS
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Arcane Strike
7: Deadly Aim
9: Manyshot
11: Wpn Focus or Imp Crit
13+: whatever

A plain vanilla Core-only archery bard can do absurd amounts of damage beginning in the mid levels. Around 7-8 is when you turn the corner from OK to ZOMG WTF JUST HIT ME

[DrDeth]

The party needed healing, so I dipped a level of cleric. Worked for a while, but now I regret it.

[Derek Weil]

Hey guys, I'm beginnig to see yuor points on multiclassing. I did think of going with a Battle Herald, but I'm probably going to stick with vanilla bard for now. My system mastery is probably just not there to do a mutliclass well, to be perfectly honest. I've never had the chance to even play a character above 3rd level yet, so yeah, I want to spend more time learning about the base classes and expand from there.

[Sevus]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

I multi-classed my bard, but that's because he's a primary caster/face/skill monkey, not for combat.

Single level dip into crossblooded Fey/Whatever Sorc, +2 DC for all compulsions (read the bard list and find any useful spell with a saving throw that won't apply to :P) access to all the wands you don't get yourself, a couple of utility spells you can spam a few times a day, etc.

If I was gonna go martial, I'd go Lore Warden fighter level 2. 3 feats, not a big loss on skills.

Glitterdust.

On topic, yeah, it's probably best not to multiclass unless you really know what you're doing, and bard plays as a sort of hybrid class anyways.

[DrDeth]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

I multi-classed my bard, but that's because he's a primary caster/face/skill monkey, not for combat.

Single level dip into crossblooded Fey/Whatever Sorc, +2 DC for all compulsions (read the bard list and find any useful spell with a saving throw that won't apply to :P) access to all the wands you don't get yourself, a couple of utility spells you can spam a few times a day, etc.

Flare Burst, Touch of gracelessness, Thunderous drums, Jesters Jaunt, and many many more.

Cost? 1/3 of a bab, one of your highest level spells, 4 SkP, 2 HP, and a class ability.

Like I said, I multiclassed into cleric, which gives you more, and now i regret it.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Ok, so there are a ton of bard spells with saves that are not enchantments, still.

My point was... a single level dip giving you bonus cantrips(situationally useful), a spell or two you might not have access to without UMD or that is just so useful you want more (3-4 bonus truestrikes/day?), 2-4 effective bonus feats (spfoc/grspfoc in compulsion/charms) that stack with the feats themselves (4bard/1sorc +2 cha headband @5th level 2nd level spell DC in charms/compulsions 22), or the ability to affect undead/monstrous humanoid/beasts/magical beasts with mind affecting spells as if they were humanoid.

Any of these at the cost of a couple skillpoints and a HP (difference between a d6 and d8 is 3.5 vs 4.5, so 1 average) is a good trade.

[Thalin]

The Vishkanyas have a rogue archtype that gets sneak attack and bardsong (2 levels behind an actual bard). It's pretty solid, and looks fun.

But to directly answer your question, no. Not just for spells; but your entire character will feel a level behind where he should be (he'll play like a 5th level @ 6th level, and that rogue level just won't give him much).

Melees multiclass well. Sometimes they can even multiclass INTO caster types (Oracles, Clerics, and Inquisitors especially). But if your "shtick" is bard you should stick with bard.