Alignment shift question

[Mal-Duroth]

Long story short my witch was trying to get info on a fugitve from a thug whom had been rumored to be seen in his presence. he wasn't talking and my buddie and I both rolled low on intimidate.

My CN witch, not above low-intesity torture, casted Cup of Dust (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/cupOfDust.html#_cup-of- dust) on him promising to return the next morning to see if he was feeling more cooperative. So I did return only to see that he had drowned himself in a horsetrough outside his appartment.

Her reaction was a mix of embarrasment for not foreseeing this and frustration at wasting their only known connetion to the man they were chasing ("Oh come on!" kinda like that). A reaction which I believe was perfectly in line w/ her alignment.

Our GM however believed this was grounds for an instant alignment change to CE. I was pretty upset, for one this GM is normally a pretty opened minded guy. I tried to explain that committing neglegnet homocide and not taking responsibility for it is a far cry from the bloodthirsty nature of CE. He wasn't hearing it however. It turned into a fight that led to the end of that particular session. We haven't addressed the issue since, at first it was like the pink elephant in the room and then it was forgotten.

I'm curious tho what my character did was negligent, maybe slightly sociapathic. But grounds for an instant alignment change? There was no intent to kill the guy and her lack of remorse was more a testament to her lack of a sense of responibilty.

Any suggestions?

[DonDuckie]

The spell itself can't kill a target, so I say you're off the hook on manslaughter, murder, what-have-you...

Insta-evil? no.
Final straw? perhaps.

Chaotic evil doesn't dictate "constantly raging murdering psychopath with no sense of self-control, purpose, mission or priorities", so just accept CE for now and work your way back to CN.

Suggestion:
Speak with dead :D

[Riggler]

Alignment is the most subjective aspect of the game that has mechanical impacts. The GM is always right about his subjective decision on the matter in his/her game.

It takes more than one isolated incident in my game for me to do an alignment change. And if I DO an alignment change, I never tell the player outright. The majority of classes and characters will not even notice an alignment change in most games.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it.

The GM took liberties with the spell. Perhaps it was good for the story. The alignment change was swift. But alas, it should take all but one really goody-two-shoes deed to switch it right back to CN if the GM is consistent.

[Graywolf777]

My question would be, is this the first time your character has done something like this? Generally when I have a player do something like this I put a hash mark in the "evil acts" section of my notes next to their characters name. If that tally gets high enough, I change their alignment.

The act was evil. There was not intent to kill, but it was torture. By itself I would not call for a change in alignment, but if there have been previous acts of a similar nature, it may be justified.

[Mal-Duroth]

Riggler wrote:

And if I DO an alignment change, I never tell the player outright. The majority of classes and characters will not even notice an alignment change in most games.

Now that might have been the better way to go IMO. Granted it would have been pretty much the same thing, but atleast I wouldn't have know about it. I could have unknowingly roleplayed myself right back to CN or further into CE.

Either way I wish I hadn't argued, it pretty much ruined the whole night, and over something fairly minor.

Riggler wrote:

The GM took liberties with the spell. Perhaps it was good for the story.

I actually thought that part was pretty funny the next day when we all cooled off.

[Theconiel]

Disclaimer: This is only my opinion. The GM is the final arbiter of alignment shifts.

I agree with your use of the word "negligent". Your goal was not to kill the NPC, and the spell itself is not fatal. However, leaving the NPC after cursing him, when there were potentially fatal consequences from the spell is certainly negligent.

Was your action Good? Of course not.
Was your action Evil? From what you say, it sounds as if it were probably not.

DonDuckie raises a very good point. Is this part of a pattern of "not-quite-evil" behavior? If so, it is possible that the combined weight of many acts could push your character from CN to CE.

[EsperMagic]

outside of what paladins and some clerics alignment really isnt all that important.

[BillyGoat]

EsperMagic wrote:

outside of what paladins and some clerics alignment really isnt all that important.

Well, and the interactions with alignment-oriented spells.

And outsiders, if the GM uses them. Most outsiders, if they can detect aligned auras, are going to change how they react based on the perceived alignment.

Beyond that, you are correct.

So the question becomes, "how often does the above come up?"

And, in this GM's world, does the local law enforcement frown upon the unsanctioned cursing of persons, leading to their unintended demise?

Since the death was GM-fiat, it shouldn't result in too much more trouble than it has. If only because it's already turned into one OOC fight.

[Calybos1]

The spell cannot kill the target and does not have the "Evil" descriptor, so casting it on an enemy is not an inherently evil act.

The fact that the target later died of accidental drowning is unfortunate from a CN standpoint, which the player demonstrated appropriately. Cackling and dancing around the corpse while making plans to do the same to everyone else she met would have been evil, but the player didn't do that.

And alignment IS vitally important, so this is an appropriate question to raise. It's completely and inextricably built into the system and its rules. There are alignment-based spells. There are alignment-based monster abilities such as damage reduction. There's detection of alignment. The entire system of the planes is alignment-based, and there are whole races and worlds dedicated to the ideals of specific alignments. Alignment is inescapable, which is exactly as it should be.

[Claxon]

Instant CE seems a bit much. If this is a recurring sort of act then it may be valid.

Torture is definitely evil no matter how you slice it, and you used that curse spell as a form of torture that resulted in his death. It was certainly a case for negligent homicide, you're actions resulted in his death even if unintentionally. It's not so far apart from a child that commits suicide because everyone at school insults and abuses them. Are their peers innocent or guilty?