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Given the wizard can buy new spells easily this isn't a real issue.
If we use item purchase rules you've got to ban a huge amount of wizard stuff which proves my point BEFORE we even start. Crafting alone shows power that dwarfs the fighter. Basically if you have to ban anything from the wizard it's overpowered. The more you need to ban the more overpowered it really is.
Only assumptions to the above are
1: It's just you.
2: You get Wealth by level.Every further rule required is just more proof of my point on the wizard. You're going to have to cripple the wizard for it only to be "Just better" instead of embarrassing the caster.
?
the real issue is knowing the challenges before spells are chosen is unfair in favor of the wizard. spells and daily spell loadouts should be chosen without knowing what the challenges will be.
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Cool, you killed the guy you're standing next to.Massive Damage?Perhaps, but martials don't even have a chance at pulling something like this off. Even if they have a +50 attack and damage modifier.IF is a strong word...that spell could also end up doing nothing because ALL the bad guys made their saves....Spells are how spell casters are better. Wish or Miracle for example. Or Mass Suffocation.
Martial characters can do more damage to a single target than spell casters. Spell casters can kill everyone with a single high level spell if they fail a save.
i guess no one ever heard of whirlwind attack...
i guess no one ever heard of whirlwind attack...
Cool, you spent 5 Feats to kill the TWO guys you were standing next to!
If you take Whirlwind Attack, Darwin erases your character from the game. (Seriously that feat is a massive waste of feats.)
more sweeping generalizations that make people feel bad for doing things that are not bad
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until you realize that the martial has a 20 foot reach and he hits just about every mook in the aoe with his "better then a fireball" damage. and depending on the build dazes or adds any number of other awesome secondary effects.
5 feats for whirlwind? my mobile fighter gets to do it as a standard action i with out needing to waste any feats. But since i do have a bunch of extra feat slots for my character im still getting to do whirlwind attack every round as a standard action, which isn't a waste of a 4 feats at all.
the real issue is knowing the challenges before spells are chosen is unfair in favor of the wizard. spells and daily spell loadouts should be chosen without knowing what the challenges will be.
For a lot of them, I agree -- any cases where the bad guy has nondetection or private sanctum up, or that involves a very tight timetable.
But the greatest strength of the wizard -- the one that all the nay-sayers always blow off and ignore -- is that given any prep time at all she can use divination to find out what to expect, and then load her spells accordingly. So in many scenarios, pretending the wizard won't know what to expect is, in fact, nerfing the wizard right out of the gate.
And at least one scenario should involve use of false vision, so we can see how the wizard does if prepared for the wrong scenario!
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so in that case will darwin erase my character from the game or am I okay
because if that Darwin dude touches my iPad I will show him the evolution of pain and take him to the Galapagos Islands of bodily harm
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until you realize that the martial has a 20 foot reach and he hits just about every mook in the aoe with his "better then a fireball" damage. and depending on the build dazes or adds any number of other awesome secondary effects.
Hey ciretose, Schroedinger's martial here!
I actually agree with the non detection/anti scrying stuff which the major intelligent enemies WILL HAVE!
You still have the time thing, though. If the caster fails to scry you right now, they just try again later. And unless you have access to mind blank, the caster can still use vision or contact other plane to find out what he/she needs to know, despite all the anti-scrying stuff you'd care to name.
5 feats for whirlwind? my mobile fighter gets to do it as a standard action i with out needing to waste any feats. But since i do have a bunch of extra feat slots for my character im still getting to do whirlwind attack every round as a standard action, which isn't a waste of a 4 feats at all.
No, your Mobile Fighter gets to use it as a standard action IF he blows the feats:
Whirlwind Blitz (Ex): At 20th level, a mobile fighter can make a full-attack action as a standard action. He may also use the Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action. This ability replaces weapon mastery.
Note it doesn't say you gain Whirlwind Attack.
Also this is at level 20 well beyond where most campaigns end and at the point where casters can just wish you away.
Seems to me that the only thing the poster knows how to talk about is DPR and how martial classes do it better than casters...congratulations they do...thats all they do...because thats all they can do. You can't compare a wizards DPR to a fighters because they aren't in the same category of play and in the same regards you can't compare a barbarians healing ability to that of a clerics.
What you can do though is take what the martial classes can do...all of their options all of their class features and feats and damage output and see how that effects dnd and then compare that to the spells of a full caster...
If you've played enough good solid d&d and have played the game for 10 plus years such as myself then you know without a shadow of a doubt that 9 times out of 10 the caster is superior.
Seems to me that the only thing the poster knows how to talk about is DPR and how martial classes do it better than casters...congratulations they do...thats all they do...because thats all they can do. You can't compare a wizards DPR to a fighters because they aren't in the same category of play and in the same regards you can't compare a barbarians healing ability to that of a clerics.
What you can do though is take what the martial classes can do...all of their options all of their class features and feats and damage output and see how that effects dnd and then compare that to the spells of a full caster...
If you've played enough good solid d&d and have played the game for 10 plus years such as myself then you know without a shadow of a doubt that 9 times out of 10 the caster is superior.
Martial DPR is what casters are trying to set up. Casters play support allowing the martial to quickly kill most enemies.
Summons and companions just don't cut the mustard. My caster doesn't want to waste spells doing sub-par damage. Let the mortals deal in such trifles.
As a martial you get to do all the killing, which is fun.
The caster gets to stroke his ego while the martial satisfies his bloodlust.
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My caster doesn't want to waste spells doing sub-par damage. Let the mortals deal in such trifles.
As a martial you get to do all the killing, which is fun.
Yes, I definitely want to play the guy who does the job the caster feels is a waste of his time. I feel awesome doing that for sure.
Next, we'll play the modern version, CEOs & Custodians. C&C is lots of fun for the Custodians because they get to take out the trash and clean the toilets and stuff. I mean, really, isn't building the company up just set up for the Custodians to clean it? <_<
It's more like CEOs and hitmen.
Some people like getting their hands dirty rather than mess around with a lot of paperwork.
It's more like CEOs and hitmen.
Some people like getting their hands dirty rather than mess around with a lot of paperwork.
Oh, I think Custodians get rather dirty hands in their line of work.
The problem with your analogy is that it shows you're arguing something totally different than the rest of us.
The issue is that Paperwork gets more done than getting dirty does. Maybe you don't like paperwork, but that doesn't mean it's any less powerful of a tool.
I mean, I personally dislike guns, but that doesn't mean I think it's better to carry a knife than a gun--that's crazy talk.
What is fun and what is more powerful have nothing to do with each other.
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It's more like CEOs and hitmen.
Some people like getting their hands dirty rather than mess around with a lot of paperwork.
Oh, I think Custodians get rather dirty hands in their line of work.
The problem with your analogy is that it shows you're arguing something totally different than the rest of us.
The issue is that Paperwork gets more done than getting dirty does. Maybe you don't like paperwork, but that doesn't mean it's any less powerful of a tool.
I mean, I personally dislike guns, but that doesn't mean I think it's better to carry a knife than a gun--that's crazy talk.
What is fun and what is more powerful have nothing to do with each other.
his arrival cannot be interrupted
we both have our actions off the bat
the martial PC won't backstab me after an expired planar binding
the martial PC doesn't dissapear after a few rounds
the martial PC doesn't cost a spell slot
the martial PC is more reasonable to make contracts with
maintain his hit point totals somehow
buff him as needed
provide him a discounted crafted magical item here and there
betray me when the planar binding ends
refuse me service a second time
require some ridiculous compensation
possess a level of arrogance the martial PC lacks
it only lasts a single encounter at most
it is easily interruptable
it costs a spell slot
it costs a full round
it still doesn't do as well at damage as a level appropriate martial PC unless i blow a bunch of feats.
arent casters not better if you run against things that are magic immune? Like GolemsWell, golems are not magic inmune. See glitterdust or create pit for example. reverse gravity totally destroy a golem encounter.
Last time I checked none of those spells did damage... Destroy seems like the wrong word here.
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Party of 4 wizards.
Dies.
Party of 4 fighters
Dies.
*Barring extreme DM fiat
It's like the game is balanced or something...
Last time I checked none of those spells did damage... Destroy seems like the wrong word here.arent casters not better if you run against things that are magic immune? Like GolemsWell, golems are not magic inmune. See glitterdust or create pit for example. reverse gravity totally destroy a golem encounter.It do not have to do damage. One of those spells make a dificult encounter for a martial (high AC, DR, DPR) into a longbow practice.
If your idea of having fun with a martial is to hit thing that can not defend themself, then I can see that you do not have problem with it.
By the way A bunch of lantern archon bypass any DR.
Like I said. Casters stroke their egos while martials do all the real work. It's a good system. Everyone is happy.
Party of 4 wizards.
Dies.
Party of 4 fighters
Dies.
*Barring extreme DM fiat
It's like the game is balanced or something...
Party of 4 wizard do not die. With just reverse gravity the golem is not longer a thread, a couple of summon monsters and a couple of raounds later the golem is dead.
or they can just fly away for the golem, I am pretty sure that there a re aot of solution that remove the golem without killing it.
The 4 fighter/martials have to fight the fight, the wizards do not.
so you waste a precious 7th level spell to remove one monster
at 13th level
i doubt that wizard has more than 1 copy of reverse gravity per day
but by screwing the golem, you screw all of your non-flying allies
Hardly the real work, instead of an epic battle they have a practice against a disabled opponet, yeah hilariously fun.Like I said. Casters stroke their egos while martials do all the real work. It's a good system. Everyone is happy.Last time I checked none of those spells did damage... Destroy seems like the wrong word here.arent casters not better if you run against things that are magic immune? Like GolemsWell, golems are not magic inmune. See glitterdust or create pit for example. reverse gravity totally destroy a golem encounter.It do not have to do damage. One of those spells make a dificult encounter for a martial (high AC, DR, DPR) into a longbow practice.
If your idea of having fun with a martial is to hit thing that can not defend themself, then I can see that you do not have problem with it.
By the way A bunch of lantern archon bypass any DR.
that is the whole point of the majority of wizard builds
you use a handful of spells that use one of the following 2 methods to gain a massive advantage
makes your allies into MK walkers and have them Roflstomp your foes
or you turn all your foes into Dan Hibiki and have your allies slaughter them in their moment of incompetence
Golems exist to keep a caster on there toes. They are not hard encounters.
Now demons, devils, and undead, all with SR. Enjoy trying to solo the encounter then.
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all i need to do to maintain the Martial PC's allegiance is:
maintain his hit point totals somehowbuff him as needed
provide him a discounted crafted magical item here and there
And give him an equal share of the loot. There's no way a planar binding costs more money than 1/4 of all loot forever. :P
Kidding aside, nobody suggested that nobody be the martial. Just because cleaning toilets sucks doesn't mean that nobody has to do it. We need people to scrub the sewers, clean up roadkill, and manually impregnate cows or whatever just as much as we need lawyers, bankers, and first chair violinists, but simply needing the work to be done does not make the world fair or balanced.
Last time I checked none of those spells did damage... Destroy seems like the wrong word here.
Yes, someone has to beat the monster's hit points to zero. So? Anyone could do that. A cleric might not hit the same as a fighter, but he still hits adequately. If the enemy is blind, restrained, and confused, who cares about DPS at that point?
The game is not balanced just because the Fighter does the most melee damage. Damage is not the main show, it's the dirty clean up after the caster wins the fight.
Party of 4 wizards.
Dies.
Party of 4 fighters
Dies.
*Barring extreme DM fiat
It's like the game is balanced or something...
It is not balanced, because first, I don't believe a party of 4 wizards would necessarily die if they planned and built their characters to compensate for that, especially if they got to start at a higher level. A party of 4 fighters, though, does die pretty fast around mid level. They're not even capable of participating in some activities without magical help, after all.
But here's the thing, while a party of 4 wizards may die more than a party with a Fighter, a Cleric, a Rogue, and a Wizard, a party of Wizard, Druid, Cleric, and Sorcerer definitely won't. They'll generally outperform the party with martials consistently, in everything except maybe DPS, which is mostly irrelevant.
Or how about an Alchemist, Inquisitor, Bard, Magus. Partial casters are pretty awesome, too, compared to martials. Parties where everyone can cast spells are better than those where not everyone can, because spells are better than everything else. You just can't get around that, it's impossible.
You can like being a Fighter more, but you can't suggest fighting is more useful overall than spells.
Like I said. Casters stroke their egos while martials do all the real work. It's a good system. Everyone is happy.
No, not everyone is happpy. The Martial doing the "real work" is not happy unless he enjoys butcher's work. The caster makes the fight a joke, which minimizes the Martial's contribution.
Would you really feel accomplished if you beat Michael Jordan in a free throw contest, but for every shot, you got to stand on a ladder within reach of the basket and he had both of his hands tied behind his back?
I love the idea of playing martials, and I love to do so in every version of D&D except 3rd (and by extension Pathfinder). I never felt like I was playing caddy in 2e--you need a martial in that game, no ifs ands or buts about it, and they do things that are totally unique that the other classes actually can't do. In 4e, my martial can get you to fight on despite grievous wounds by yelling encouragement--totally awesome!
No, 3rd edition is the only edition that screwed them over, and it frustrates me that people pretend it's not true.
Tell me it's ok for the game to have imbalance (for example, because everyone can have fun anyway), that's fine, I'll accept your preference for what it is. But don't tell me there isn't imbalance.
You say this like the caster renders every combatant helpless in round 1 100% of the time. He debuffs regularly, but it is rare for a caster to end the fight before the martial has already killed the enemy.
Some people like winning the encounter, not just making it easier for other people to win the encounter.
Some people like winning the encounter, not just making it easier for other people to win the encounter.
You're looking at it sideways. The Fighter "technically" wins the encounter just like the soldier technically wins the war, but it's battlefield control (the wizard and the Generals) that really win it. The grunts get the literal kill, but I'm not bragging about killing a helpless enemy, or one that was funneled perfectly onto my spear or whatever.
Just because the lesser chess pieces (pawns, bishops, knights) are generally the ones to get the checkmate doesn't mean the queen isn't more valuable to the victory.
And furthermore, what some people like is irrelevant to what is more powerful!
Your one of those people who should play casters then. Some of prefer winning the encounter through killing, instead of winning the encounter through support tactics.
Also you keep acting like all the enemies in the encounter become helpless as soon as the caster waves his hands. This is rarely the case.
Missed all the fun, did the OP disappear? What's the point of discussing now? Anyways, the reason casters are better is because they were given more options than hitting it with a stick. Full attacking can get pretty boring. Outside of combat magic is better and outright replaces skills often enough.
Your one of those people who should play casters then. Some of prefer winning the encounter through killing, instead of winning the encounter through support tactics.
You can play your fighter if you want, I'm not a big fan of being a janitor myself. Casters can summon peeps to do the job for them and depending on how they did things they could possibly even clean up the crew themselves. Pull out the scythe or rope after a color spray or whatever. Possibly your caster is a druid or cleric with some good combat skills. Depending on your game and build they might do better than some of the other martials. Your clean up crew could be a cleric, a druid, and a magus.
Also you keep acting like all the enemies in the encounter become helpless as soon as the caster waves his hands. This is rarely the case.
No, but there are other things the caster can do. Such as haste or slow. Its hard to deny that casters do change the battlefield with summons, create pit, color spray, haste, and all those other things.
We keep bringing up golems like they are hard encounters. Why?
I thought you had something going when you started talking about dragons and devils. Which is where casters need their martials more than ever. Caster have trouble even harming these things let a lone killing them. They are looking for a decent BC and some buffs that may keep the party alive long enough for the martials to kill everything.
Missed all the fun, did the OP disappear? What's the point of discussing now? Anyways, the reason casters are better is because they were given more options than hitting it with a stick. Full attacking can get pretty boring. Outside of combat magic is better and outright replaces skills often enough.
Your one of those people who should play casters then. Some of prefer winning the encounter through killing, instead of winning the encounter through support tactics.You can play your fighter if you want, I'm not a big fan of being a janitor myself. Casters can summon peeps to do the job for them and depending on how they did things they could possibly even clean up the crew themselves. Pull out the scythe or rope after a color spray or whatever. Possibly your caster is a druid or cleric with some good combat skills. Depending on your game and build they might do better than some of the other martials. Your clean up crew could be a cleric, a druid, and a magus.
Also you keep acting like all the enemies in the encounter become helpless as soon as the caster waves his hands. This is rarely the case.No, but there are other things the caster can do. Such as haste or slow. Its hard to deny that casters do change the battlefield with summons, create pit, color spray, haste, and all those other things.
I love how you used a martial buff as one of the "reasons" casters are better.
Yes they manipulate the battlefield like any proper GOD-wizard should, but it's the martials who are the center of the party. You need them to kill efficiently without burning through spells at an un-Godly rate.
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I love how you used a martial buff as one of the "reasons" casters are better.
Yes they manipulate the battlefield like any proper GOD-wizard should, but it's the martials who are the center of the party. You need them to kill efficiently without burning through spells at an un-Godly rate.
I think Kirth made a 'tree in the forest' analogy earlier. Lots more to the game than combat. What does a fighter do out of combat? Life kinda' sucks for him. Compare to a Magus. Even in combat the ability to cast spells could be the difference between reaching foes and/or magic item dependency.
You also totally read over my point about straight martials not being the only martials. Clerics, Summons, Eidolons, Magus, etc. are also caster/martials who can do the job of janitor, and then have a life outside of full attacking.
Don't force casters into only being support, and don't only look at combat. Narrow scope of things.
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Missed all the fun, did the OP disappear? What's the point of discussing now? Anyways, the reason casters are better is because they were given more options than hitting it with a stick. Full attacking can get pretty boring. Outside of combat magic is better and outright replaces skills often enough.
Your one of those people who should play casters then. Some of prefer winning the encounter through killing, instead of winning the encounter through support tactics.You can play your fighter if you want, I'm not a big fan of being a janitor myself. Casters can summon peeps to do the job for them and depending on how they did things they could possibly even clean up the crew themselves. Pull out the scythe or rope after a color spray or whatever. Possibly your caster is a druid or cleric with some good combat skills. Depending on your game and build they might do better than some of the other martials. Your clean up crew could be a cleric, a druid, and a magus.
Also you keep acting like all the enemies in the encounter become helpless as soon as the caster waves his hands. This is rarely the case.No, but there are other things the caster can do. Such as haste or slow. Its hard to deny that casters do change the battlefield with summons, create pit, color spray, haste, and all those other things.I love how you used a martial buff as one of the "reasons" casters are better.
Yes they manipulate the battlefield like any proper GOD-wizard should, but it's the martials who are the center of the party. You need them to kill efficiently without burning through spells at an un-Godly rate.
Lol, I have never looked at a Martial as a janitor. I actually consider them bodyguards during the early levels until the Wizard, as an example, gets his feet. I do think it's safe to say that, again, using the Wizard as an example, they become more and more self-sufficient as time goes on and more spell slots and higher level spells become available.
Also, there are Traits and Feats that influence a casters ability to punch through SR and there are a couple Traits/Feats that can be had to increase CL (If the GM blesses off on them that is) in addition to an Ioun Stone that adds +1 to CL. There may be more options than those, I don't have everything committed to memory so I can't say for sure.
Casters can become very potent over time, but I don't see myself having a desire to try and solo anything on the level a Dragon or Devil/Demon without support. Lol, coming from the Army, I believe in having my fire team or squad depending on the size of the group.
I find that the more interesting out of combat situations require neither spells nor skills to solve. Even the more boring ones like a locked door can be kicked down most of the time.