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Aaaand agro acquired! I'll just use this to respond to multiple posts.
@mplindustries: Re weird half-elf oracle - that IS cool. Not necessarily OP, but it is a degree of versatility I have to remember. Having one feat semi-wasted on the initial Eldritch Heritage plus other factors seems make up for it.
Re metamagic - Ok, weird that it stacks like that when maximize and empower don't. I'll have to look up the details of that and other combinations. If they're doing that with a maximize rod, though, they can't very well do it a second time via Quicken Spell without taking up that 9th level slot IF they have some sort of meta-magic spell level reducing talent. So, still seems balanced when you consider the defenses the enemy might have against it, like SR, resistance, fast healing, evasion, etc.
@Anzyr: I see SR checks failed all the time by our wizard / sorceress combo, so I don't think it's irrelevant. Where you're getting CL + 10 at I'd really like to know, too. Concentration checks are ALWAYS an issue, especially against enemies built to challenge them. Don't believe me? Try casting when you're grappled by a fighter with a +35 grapple check, lemme know how that goes. And as for spell DCs, at base I'm not sure how that's the case. If the PC has access to a bunch of items that might be boosting their save DCs, then it has to be coming out of a budget for some other offensive, defensive, or utility purpose characters usually have. If money is just everywhere and all those areas can be covered to max effect with ease, the difficulty of the creatures they fight, including their saving throws, should be increased to match it.
@andreww: was that directed at me?
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All of these arguments are based on the idea that the players are playing AGAINST the gm...you arnt. Your playing WITH him/her. If you don't have a caster in your group and your gm isn't giving you ways to solve/overcome obstacles, he's failing as the leader of the game. Also, just because a caster CAN break the game with spells, doesn't mean he should unless its nessesary (which it should never be).
As to the examples given for burst DPR from a caster, how many times a day can said caster do that a day? Not many. As was stated above, a lot of games have 4-5 encounters a day before rest at which point the caster has no more spells left to cast.
As far as using a spell to run from a fight, a good gm is gonna make you regret that choice when a day later you come back and the number of baddies has increased, or the whole dungeon has rest and you have to start from scratch again.
It all goes back to the gm running the game properly. If everyone in a GRP with no caster fails the perception check no notice the key to the door they need to go through, the gm should have a plot device ready for this so the key gets noticed. Gm fiat, or a gm played NPC adventuring with the group, or something similar.
As far as ending combat using battlefield control spells, guess what, very few are perminent . Example: sleep only lasts for a little while, so when you decide to walk off without dealing with it your gonna end up with 2x the baddies in the next room. And even if you do use sleep to do a coup de grace, you need a martial character to pull it off cause a caster doesn't have the melee damage nessisary to actually kill the baddy most of the time. If you do, he probably has a will high enough to resist sleep.
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It all goes back to the gm running the game properly.
All forums are basically optimization boards where the GM is assumed to be a passive RAW only preplanned encounters person. Outside of PFS people also like to assume the most broken interpretation of raw is right. In this sense casters can become very powerful very fast.
Boards tend to ignore the infinite use factor too. Being so far removed from play, they choose to forget all the times their caster needed a door kicked down because using summon monster for one door seems like a waste. People tend to forget how limited and resource minded a caster is at all times, while the fighter can swing his sword at whatever he wants. Give a martial an adamantine weapon and he can slice up the world to pieces. The caster can blow everything up too, but he won't because those spells are saved for credible threats. It is easy to ignore that a martials combat abilities are also his out-of-combat abilities. Casters can't think like that because they would run out of spells too fast if they used 5 fireballs to solve a problem instead of 1 open lock spell.
Spells are how spell casters are better. Wish or Miracle for example. Or Mass Suffocation.
Martial characters can do more damage to a single target than spell casters. Spell casters can kill everyone with a single high level spell if they fail a save.
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All of these arguments are based on the idea that the players are playing AGAINST the gm...you arnt. Your playing WITH him/her. If you don't have a caster in your group and your gm isn't giving you ways to solve/overcome obstacles, he's failing as the leader of the game. Also, just because a caster CAN break the game with spells, doesn't mean he should unless its nessesary (which it should never be).
That is fine, and that is what actually occurs in most campaing, a gentleman agreement.
Still the caster have considerably more means to disrupt the plot of any adventure, whether they use those meanst means or not do not matter they are there.
i'll give you that much. but don't get me wrong, any good group should have a caster in it. although i HAVE played in a group without one before. there isn't too much of a difference in playing without one if you know what you are doing and you have a decent idea of what kind of setting you are getting yourself into before hand. worse case scenario, you finish what you are doing, then go back to town and ask a spellcaster for help. or or or! heavens forbid your GM tells you before hand that " **stops foot** you should probably grab those scrolls this guy is selling...**stops foot**"
besides, if casters are really that OP compared to martials well i have news for you: its not hard to extend an anti-magic field over an entire dungeon using GM fiat. then whats your precious god-mode 9th level 10 metamagic-ed super-spell gonna do? hmmm? nothing. its gonna fizzle like it should cause i can break the game too.
alot of the spells referred too so far have all been at CL 18+ anyway at which point your martials all have amazing gear and outrageous damage and your spells can get cast like 2-4 times a day that can keep up.
save or die spells are great, but all of them have both SR AND a save (i've checked) to bypass first. and monsters, unlike PC's have scaling SR with the HD. this means that odds are against you that you are gonna get the full effect. spells are hit or miss when it comes to actually working exactly how the caster wanted it to. yeah, i see the badguy i would rather not tangle with, so i'm gonna use dominate person so i dont have to, but ohh, guess what, he happens to have a high will save AND gets bonuses against such spells. sorry, guess you ARE gonna have to hide behind your fighters shield for a few rounds, arnt you?
my point is that EVERY class or group of classes has their usefulness. you cant expect a 3rd level wizard to be able to take on a CR4 setting alone anymore than you can expect a 3rd level rogue to do it. but a group with a wizard, a rogue, and a fighter could do it together. so could a barbarian, ranger, and monk. they just have to go about it differently. know the class you are playing, play it well and SUPPORT YOUR FRIENDS.
side note: no 1 caster can do EVERYTHING any other class can do. its not possible. you can build a caster to mimic 1, maybe 2, other classes in their specific playstyle, but you dont have a spell prepared or learned for every situation possible. you might be able to build yourself a gundam using magic, but i bet if you make a character that can do that, he wont be able to sneak past someone when he needs to. of you could build a druid that can hold his own just like a barbarian, but you wont be able to heal as effectively as a druid designed to do so or a cleric. every PC created has a design, and every design is unique, but no single PC can do EVERYTHING all the time. you cant have ALL arcane and divine spells in your spellbook, and you cant cast any of them at will 1000x a day. you have limitations to your power, just like a fighter cant make 100x attacks a round even though he can stack his +atk ridiculously high.
Spells are how spell casters are better. Wish or Miracle for example. Or Mass Suffocation.
Martial characters can do more damage to a single target than spell casters. Spell casters can kill everyone with a single high level spell if they fail a save.
IF is a strong word...that spell could also end up doing nothing because ALL the bad guys made their saves....
It all goes back to the gm running the game properly.All forums are basically optimization boards where the GM is assumed to be a passive RAW only preplanned encounters person. Outside of PFS people also like to assume the most broken interpretation of raw is right. In this sense casters can become very powerful very fast.
Boards tend to ignore the infinite use factor too. Being so far removed from play, they choose to forget all the times their caster needed a door kicked down because using summon monster for one door seems like a waste. People tend to forget how limited and resource minded a caster is at all times, while the fighter can swing his sword at whatever he wants. Give a martial an adamantine weapon and he can slice up the world to pieces. The caster can blow everything up too, but he won't because those spells are saved for credible threats. It is easy to ignore that a martials combat abilities are also his out-of-combat abilities. Casters can't think like that because they would run out of spells too fast if they used 5 fireballs to solve a problem instead of 1 open lock spell.
this is EXACTLY why casters ARE balanced compared to martials. yes, they have more versatility if given the time. but lets face it, if you have the time, a martial character can just go pay someone to solve the same problem.
IF is a strong word...that spell could also end up doing nothing because ALL the bad guys made their saves....Spells are how spell casters are better. Wish or Miracle for example. Or Mass Suffocation.
Martial characters can do more damage to a single target than spell casters. Spell casters can kill everyone with a single high level spell if they fail a save.
Perhaps, but martials don't even have a chance at pulling something like this off. Even if they have a +50 attack and damage modifier.
Perhaps, but martials don't even have a chance at pulling something like this off. Even if they have a +50 attack and damage modifier.IF is a strong word...that spell could also end up doing nothing because ALL the bad guys made their saves....Spells are how spell casters are better. Wish or Miracle for example. Or Mass Suffocation.
Martial characters can do more damage to a single target than spell casters. Spell casters can kill everyone with a single high level spell if they fail a save.
Massive Damage?
Massive Damage?Perhaps, but martials don't even have a chance at pulling something like this off. Even if they have a +50 attack and damage modifier.IF is a strong word...that spell could also end up doing nothing because ALL the bad guys made their saves....Spells are how spell casters are better. Wish or Miracle for example. Or Mass Suffocation.
Martial characters can do more damage to a single target than spell casters. Spell casters can kill everyone with a single high level spell if they fail a save.
Cool, you killed the guy you're standing next to.
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As far as ending combat using battlefield control spells, guess what, very few are perminent . Example: sleep only lasts for a little while, so when you decide to walk off without dealing with it your gonna end up with 2x the baddies in the next room. And even if you do use sleep to do a coup de grace, you need a martial character to pull it off cause a caster doesn't have the melee damage nessisary to actually kill the baddy most of the time. If you do, he probably has a will high enough to resist sleep.
It doesn't matter if you need a martial to coup de grace the guy, the point still stands that you ended the encounter with a single spell without allowing anyone else in the party to do anything interesting besides end the life of targets that can't fight back.
besides, if casters are really that OP compared to martials well i have news for you: its not hard to extend an anti-magic field over an entire dungeon using GM fiat. then whats your precious god-mode 9th level 10 metamagic-ed super-spell gonna do? hmmm? nothing. its gonna fizzle like it should cause i can break the game too.
Ah, the ol' "It's not broken if I Fiat it into not being broken", which is probably the stupidest argument I've ever heard for a multitude of reasons, foremost among them being that if you have to Fiat something into not working, that means it was an issue to begin with.
In essence, by giving an example of how you can heavy handedly "fix" the problem, you have admitted that there IS A PROBLEM and can therefore no longer say that there isn't one.
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Boards tend to ignore the infinite use factor too. Being so far removed from play, they choose to forget all the times their caster needed a door kicked down because using summon monster for one door seems like a waste. People tend to forget how limited and resource minded a caster is at all times, while the fighter can swing his sword at whatever he wants.
I have several responses:
First, why should I, the Fighter, feel awesome because I'm kicking in doors the wizard won't deign to spend a spell on? Literally, what the Fighter is contributing to in that circumstance, is the wizard's spells per day. Even if you're not talking about doors, and using them for their coup de graces, it's still grunt work. "I'm here to make sure the wizard has enough spells for later by doing stuff he won't waste his time on. Hooray?"
Second, kicking in doors is a function of Strength. Any spellcaster can take Strength. Most Fighters/Oracles/Druids have Strength as their highest attribute anyway. So, many spellcasters still don't need the Fighter. And sneaking around is just as suspect--lots of spellcasters could be plenty stealthy, even without Invisibility (though it's basically unfair if they have it). Spellcasters can play like Fighters and do it better than Fighters can in the end.
Third, I don't know about you, but when my group travels overland, we don't leave the Dwarf in the dust because he moves at 20' per turn instead of 30'. He's not a day behind us when we get to the destination. We wait for him and travel at the slowest pace, because, duh!
So, when a wizard runs out of spells, no sane group says, "Too bad! I'm a fighter, so I can swing all day! Come be dead weight for the next encounter!" When the spellcaster runs out of spells, the group stops. It fits the social contract of the game (the wizard's player would be bored for an encounter if he had no spells) and it makes sense in game (why would someone charge into a battle without enough resources?).
The limitation on spells per day is an illusion. There is no benefit from having infinite fuel when someone else in your party doesn't.
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Hypothesis: involvement in martial vs caster thread will make me sad. Beginning experiment...
Martials are fine, so are casters. There's no caster class that has the holy trinity of 9th level magic, access to any spell, and is a spontaneous caster. Wizards and witches have their drawbacks. Sorcerers and oracles have their drawbacks. Bards, alchemists, maguses (magi?), and especially paladins & rangers have their drawbacks. Things like SR, concentration checks, saving throws, spells rebalanced from 3.5, and other universal elements make sure that no caster is going to be 'god-mode' against a proper level threat. If a player has a caster character that is somehow achieving god-mode, it's because of one of three things. Either, A) the base rules have been modified/broken, B) the GM isn't mixing it up enough against said caster, or C) (most likely) the caster is supporting and supported by a strong party.
Oracle With Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and Paragon Surge
through a 3rd level slot (7th level w/ quicken) they can add any cleric spell (expanded arcana) or any sorcerer/wizard spell (improved eldritch heritage) to their spells known, right when they need it.
the races that can do this are
- Half Elf
- Human with Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)
- Aasimaar with Scion of Humanity and Racial Heritage (Half Elf)
- Other Houseruled Planetouched with Scion of Humanity and Racial Heritage (Half Elf)
- any homebrewed race that counts as human for the purpose of prerequisites and has Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)
- a liberal reading of the Half-Human or Human Crossbreed races that allows them to take Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)
- anybody whom is raised by Half-Elves or raised by a character with Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) at DM discretion
- some random Shapeshifting Race that ignores racial prerequisites such as a homebrewed conversion of the Doppleganger, Nymph, Lamia, Succubus, Rhakshasa or a variety of other Shapeshifting monsters
As far as ending combat using battlefield control spells, guess what, very few are perminent . Example: sleep only lasts for a little while, so when you decide to walk off without dealing with it your gonna end up with 2x the baddies in the next room. And even if you do use sleep to do a coup de grace, you need a martial character to pull it off cause a caster doesn't have the melee damage nessisary to actually kill the baddy most of the time. If you do, he probably has a will high enough to resist sleep.
Again... the Casters can make/summon/call their own fighters who totally can coup de grace them. You seem to be under the misconception about how many spells a spellcaster has per day. By the time the caster is getting access to 5th level spells you are looking at over 20 spells per day, which is more than enough to get through 4-5 (or even 7-8) encounters, because a caster rarely needs to contribute more than 2 spells to an encounter. You are also discounting long duration spells that carry over from one day to the next like Animate Dead, Explosive Runes, Simulacrum, Planar Binding, and Hour per level buffs at a certain point. Casters don't run out of spells, instead they begin to add to their spells per day, every day at certain point.
Cerberus Seven: You really need to look up Spell Perfection. Those are not being cast with 9th level slots. As to the 10 + CL, my preferred method is Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration + Otherworldly Kimono (note this is an excellent defensive item as well +6 to Saves is just... yum.)for an easy +10, but keep in mind the following very important fact:
As easy as it is for a wizard to break SR, they always have the option of using SR: No spells (Hi Snowball!).
As to concentration checks, Elves gets a +2 Racial bonus of the bat in exchange for weapon familiarity. A steal! Desperate Focus/Unhappy childhood is a trait that just flat-out hands you +2 to concentration checks. Abendego Spellpiercer is a trait that gives +2 concentration when spellcasting. Kwanlai Believer is another trait that gives +2 but is limited to divine spells. Spellguard bracers another +2 bonus that lets you roll your concentration check twice (3/day!) for the low cost of 5k (2.5k if you put Craft Wondrous to use), Tunic of Careful Casting is another +2, but costs the same as as the bracers and has no reroll. Of course there's Combat Casting for +4, but you should be able to manage with +4 from Elf/Trait until you get another +4 and some rerolls, for 5k if you make the items yourself.
Having said all that, while Paizo nerfed Mind-Blank (Caster everywhere thank them), they didn't nerf Freedom of Movement, good luck with that grappling!
As to the item issue, keep in mind casters get Craft Wondrous (The best craft) so they can half-price everything. Really the amount of resources this stuff take is pretty negligible.
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Limitation on spells is not an Illusions. There is much a caster CANNOT do because he is conserving resources. The fighter can just DO more each day than a caster can do. Many times a caster will choose to do nothing, because they are limited.
This constant limitation comes with advantages to be sure, but it is a completely different style of play.
Druids ignore all of this by having really high strength(more so than clerics), AC, and saves all day via wildshape. But druids are awesome, so that's not entirely fair. Druids are 2nd or 1st at everything. They are balanced by the sheer un-fun paperwork it takes to run the class properly. Druids are not OP, but they do step on everyone's toes.
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No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
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As far as ending combat using battlefield control spells, guess what, very few are perminent . Example: sleep only lasts for a little while, so when you decide to walk off without dealing with it your gonna end up with 2x the baddies in the next room. And even if you do use sleep to do a coup de grace, you need a martial character to pull it off cause a caster doesn't have the melee damage nessisary to actually kill the baddy most of the time. If you do, he probably has a will high enough to resist sleep.It doesn't matter if you need a martial to coup de grace the guy, the point still stands that you ended the encounter with a single spell without allowing anyone else in the party to do anything interesting besides end the life of targets that can't fight back.
besides, if casters are really that OP compared to martials well i have news for you: its not hard to extend an anti-magic field over an entire dungeon using GM fiat. then whats your precious god-mode 9th level 10 metamagic-ed super-spell gonna do? hmmm? nothing. its gonna fizzle like it should cause i can break the game too.Ah, the ol' "It's not broken if I Fiat it into not being broken", which is probably the stupidest argument I've ever heard for a multitude of reasons, foremost among them being that if you have to Fiat something into not working, that means it was an issue to begin with.
In essence, by giving an example of how you can heavy handedly "fix" the problem, you have admitted that there IS A PROBLEM and can therefore no longer say that there isn't one.
fiat exists because the game isn't perfect. its never going to be. stop exceting it to be. there has never been a "perfect" game, ever. tabletop, boardgame, videogame, anything. theres ALWAYS something you can exploit if you take the time to figure it out. for those players who discover these tricks, cudos to you. for the rest who play the game to enjoy it, shut up and enjoy it, flaws and all. casters ARNT broken unless you knowingly break them. my best friend just retired a fighter/monk/barbarian who got somewhere around 15-20 attacks a round because of his build. thats REALLY broken. and we told him so. doesn't change the fact that he did it and it was fun to watch for a while, until his turns started taking over 45 minutes to complete and he wiped out 70% of the bad guys in 1 round.
fiat was put into the game for a reason. to unbreak what players break. its not the developers problem that you exploited the system. dont cry to them to change it. its the GM's job to do that. thats EXACTLY the reason the GM has the final say on EVERYTHING in the game. if the GM cant put limitations on things when nessesary, then you are creating a TRUE sandbox, and in a TRUE sandbox, the laws of physics dont apply either so what ends up happening is the players do whatever the hell they want and the story becomes irrelevant. when the players break the story in a normal game,its the GM's job to fix it.
if you build a game where EVERY answer is in the book, and NOTHING can be broken, then you dont need a GM. this is not such a game. those types of games are called video games. in which everything is spelled out in black and white....not the case with a PnP...
Limitation on spells is not an Illusions. There is much a caster CANNOT do because he is conserving resources. The fighter can just DO more each day than a caster can do. Many times a caster will choose to do nothing, because they are limited.
This constant limitation comes with advantages to be sure, but it is a completely different style of play.
Druids ignore all of this by having really high strength(more so than clerics), AC, and saves all day via wildshape. But druids are awesome, so that's not entirely fair. Druids are 2nd or 1st at everything. They are balanced by the sheer un-fun paperwork it takes to run the class properly. Druids are not OP, but they do step on everyone's toes.
First, I'd just like to point out to Shimesen that a caster with access to 9th levels spells is immune to anti-magic field... so ya good luck with that.
Next, this whole "spellcasters have limitations on spells" is pure nonsense. Explosive Runes can be hoarded indefinitely, Bloody Skeleton are going to stick around, Planar Binding can call creatures to serve for long durations, Simulacrum used in the most fair way possible, gets you another caster with 1/2 your level worth of spells. Create Demiplane, Greater gets you twice as much as time as everyone else (so free day to do all those long duration spells) and lets not forget Nap Sack which gets you a 2 hour spell recharge once a week...
this is EXACTLY why casters ARE balanced compared to martials. yes, they have more versatility if given the time. but lets face it, if you have the time, a martial character can just go pay someone to solve the same problem.It all goes back to the gm running the game properly.All forums are basically optimization boards where the GM is assumed to be a passive RAW only preplanned encounters person. Outside of PFS people also like to assume the most broken interpretation of raw is right. In this sense casters can become very powerful very fast.
Boards tend to ignore the infinite use factor too. Being so far removed from play, they choose to forget all the times their caster needed a door kicked down because using summon monster for one door seems like a waste. People tend to forget how limited and resource minded a caster is at all times, while the fighter can swing his sword at whatever he wants. Give a martial an adamantine weapon and he can slice up the world to pieces. The caster can blow everything up too, but he won't because those spells are saved for credible threats. It is easy to ignore that a martials combat abilities are also his out-of-combat abilities. Casters can't think like that because they would run out of spells too fast if they used 5 fireballs to solve a problem instead of 1 open lock spell.
so all the fighter and rogue do is Grunt Work?
what is the point of being a fighter if you you do is the following?
- fight or finish off the foes a wizard doesn't feel like wasting another spell on
- break down the door the wizard doesn't wish to waste a spell on
- pick the lock or disable the traps the wizard could disable more effectively if he chose to waste a spell
- bend or break the prison bars the party got locked in
- play bait for the enemy so the wizard doesn't lose his pet butterfly
- make the survival check because the wizard doesn't want to waste a divination spell
- Silently assassinate the enemy so your wizard buddy doesn't waste spells
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No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Not true. Aside from like teleport, casters tend to let the rogue and fighter solve most out-of-combat situations. It ends up with casters only really being active in combat, where martials truly shine.
Casters have their niche uses out-of-combat, but most of the time the biggest value of a caster is their buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control spells.
Can a caster spend lots of spells stealing the spotlight? Yes, but then they are worse at their own role and the party suffers for it.
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Next, this whole "spellcasters have limitations on spells" is pure nonsense. Explosive Runes can be hoarded indefinitely, Bloody Skeleton are going to stick around, Planar Binding can call creatures to serve for long durations, Simulacrum used in the most fair way possible, gets you another caster with 1/2 your level worth of spells. Create Demiplane, Greater gets you twice as much as time as everyone else (so free day to do all those long duration spells) and lets not forget Nap Sack which gets you a 2 hour spell recharge once a week...Limitation on spells is not an Illusions. There is much a caster CANNOT do because he is conserving resources. The fighter can just DO more each day than a caster can do. Many times a caster will choose to do nothing, because they are limited.
This constant limitation comes with advantages to be sure, but it is a completely different style of play.
Druids ignore all of this by having really high strength(more so than clerics), AC, and saves all day via wildshape. But druids are awesome, so that's not entirely fair. Druids are 2nd or 1st at everything. They are balanced by the sheer un-fun paperwork it takes to run the class properly. Druids are not OP, but they do step on everyone's toes.
All of those are either high-level play or require DM fiat to work (planar binding and simulacrum) or pointless (Oh no explosive runes and some extra skeletons!).
Simulacrum does not require fiat if you are using it on yourself, hence why I said in the fairest way possible. Also 6d6 No Save Force Damage per Rune is very solid damage, just have a low level summon read them off in front of an enemy you want dead. Also, Animate Dead, Lesser is 3rd level... Regular is 4th (3rd and 2nd for Clerics), and Explosive Runes is 3rd as well... 5th level isn't what I'd call high.
what is the point of being a fighter if you you do is the following?
...
- fight or finish off the foes a wizard doesn't feel like wasting another spell on
- break down the door the wizard doesn't wish to waste a spell on
- pick the lock or disable the traps the wizard could disable more effectively if he chose to waste a spell
- bend or break the prison bars the party got locked in
- play bait for the enemy so the wizard doesn't lose his pet butterfly
- make the survival check because the wizard doesn't want to waste a
Because what ends up happening is that the caster does none of those things and party of all casters couldn't reliably do those things.
Magic is the flexable every-tool, but it is limited. Martials and skillmonkey's have things they do at any time, but they can't solve every situation.
Saying casters are better than martials is a lot like saying prepared caster is better than spontaneous.
If you write a campaign that can stop and adventure at their leisure, expect casters to walk all over you...
Not even remotely true. Casters are going to be overpowered as long as everyone else needs to sleep. In party where no one has to sleep to avoid fatigue and can go 24/7 with access to resourceless constant healing than sure in that hypothetical party a caster might have problems.
No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Actually; a fighter does have resource limitations, the same Resource that everyone shares, Regardless of Class.
Hit Points
a fighter's hit points are limited by the following factors. some of these factors are beneficial in abundance, and some of them hinder you in abundance.
- the remaining spells of your caster buddies
- the remaining charges on your party's wands and staves
- the remaining potions and scrolls in your party's inventory
- your max HP total
- your defenses
- the damage output of your enemies
- your own damage output
- your tactics
- your group's tactics
- your coordination level
- the defenses of your enemies
- the defenses of your allies
- the damage output of your allies
- the max HP totals of your allies
- the max HP totals of your enemies
- any spells your enemy possesses
- any consumables your enemy possesses
- the amount of allies you posses
- the number of enemies you face
- the percentage of allied casters in your group
- the percentage of enemy casters in the opposing group
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Not true. Aside from like teleport, casters tend to let the rogue and fighter solve most out-of-combat situations. It ends up with casters only really being active in combat, where martials truly shine.
Casters have their niche uses out-of-combat, but most of the time the biggest value of a caster is their buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control spells.
Can a caster spend lots of spells stealing the spotlight? Yes, but then they are worse at their own role and the party suffers for it.
You've admitted in previous threads that you've never seen an optimized caster in play, or one even remotely close to being good at his job.
Your experience is atypical.
@Shimesen: Except nobody is talking about exploits. These are all the spells as written. Some with metamagic being used as they were specifically designed to be used.
No, the game will never be perfect. That doesn't mean it can't be BETTER, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.
If the GM has to step in and fix something that is working as intended, but is still overpowered, that's an issue with the ruleset that needs to be fixed.
Simulacrum does not require fiat if you are using it on yourself, hence why I said in the fairest way possible. Also 6d6 No Save Force Damage per Rune is very solid damage, just have a low level summon read them off in front of an enemy you want dead. Also, Animate Dead, Lesser is 3rd level... Regular is 4th (3rd and 2nd for Clerics), and Explosive Runes is 3rd as well... 5th level isn't what I'd call high.
A half-level version of yourself isn't all that useful.
Exploding runes has no save for the reader only, making it a fireball using a summon is nice but roundabout.
Animate dead is expensive for cannon fodder. I'd rather make personal slaves than spend 25gp per hit absorbed by an enemy.
5th isn't high, but planar binding still requires a fiat to work without issue.
I'm surprised you didn't mention magic jar, which would have been a better example. A skilled caster with magic jar can transcend their mortal body, at the price of dispel magic being a save or die.
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You've admitted in previous threads that you've never seen an optimized caster in play, or one even remotely close to being good at his job.
When did I ever say that? My buddies love breaking things. It was easier for them to break alchemist, magus, and paladin than it was fullcaster. Fullcasters are terribly balanced in pathfinder compared to 3.5.
If the GM has to step in and fix something that is working as intended, but is still overpowered, that's an issue with the ruleset that needs to be fixed.
With the way you read the rules. I can see how "as intended" could be a problem. Most of us would consider that munchkin-ing or rules lawyer-ing.
so this is the answer i've come up with so far for me question:
casters are WAY better then martial characters because - they have the potential to do anything/everything in a campaign setting and more...BUT (<--emphasis on how big that 'but' is) they dont/cant because of limitations build into their class such as spells per day, which is why they rely on the martial character to do what what either cant or chose not to (however you want to look at it) do. - i.e. a caster can do all the out of combat stuff but then has no spells left for the fight that follows, so 'chooses' to let the martials do the hack and slash they were designed to do, or else he uses all his spells for combat in which case he cant be bothered to open the door via magic, in which case he relies on the martials to break it down. in case A, the martial players are satisfied because they are doing what they built their PC to do, but the caster feels like hes not holding his own and hes just a tool, like a player controlled magic item thats only needed when the other players need something done. or in case B, the caster has all the fun, and the martials are the ones that feel like tools....SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS IS NOT BALANCE!?!?!?!?!
No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Actually; a fighter does have resource limitations, the same Resource that everyone shares, Regardless of Class.
Hit Points
Everyone has the Hit point limit. I wasn't talking about that kind of play.
I see people talking up the out-of-combat role of casters but to my experience, most of that is potential to do something. The actual actions of a caster out-of-combat are few but powerful. It takes martials and skillmonkeys to actually move the narrative forward.
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fiat exists because the game isn't perfect. its never going to be. stop exceting it to be. there has never been a "perfect" game, ever. tabletop, boardgame, videogame, anything.
So we should "shut up" and be content with really lousy rules. Or none at all, for that matter. If they can't be perfect, why bother to improve them? Pathfinder is exactly the same as 4e, for that matter!
casters ARNT broken unless you knowingly break them.
If the definition of "break" is "use any number of the abilities they're intentionally given in the rules," then yes. If you play your casters like lobotomized robot servants of the martial guys, then they're not broken at all.
fiat was put into the game for a reason. to unbreak what players break. its not the developers problem that you exploited the system. dont cry to them to change it. its the GM's job to do that. thats EXACTLY the reason the GM has the final say on EVERYTHING in the game.
So, you want to play Story Hour, with no rules, but the DM just tells you if things work, and doesn't let you interfere with his Magical Perfect Story. Guess what? If we FIX the rules, you can STILL play Story Hour! And the rest of us can play an actual game of something other than "mother may I." Everyone wins!
what is the point of being a fighter if you you do is the following?
- fight or finish off the foes a wizard doesn't feel like wasting another spell on
- break down the door the wizard doesn't wish to waste a spell on
- pick the lock or disable the traps the wizard could disable more effectively if he chose to waste a spell
- bend or break the prison bars the party got locked in
- play bait for the enemy so the wizard doesn't lose his pet butterfly
- make the survival check because the wizard doesn't want to waste a divination spell
Because what ends up happening is that the caster does none of those things and party of all casters couldn't reliably do those things.
Magic is the flexable every-tool, but it is limited. Martials and skillmonkey's have things they do at any time, but they can't solve every situation.
Saying casters are better than martials is a lot like saying prepared caster is better than spontaneous.
cleric and druid are also casters, as is the oracle.
an oracle or druid can have a high strength for breaking doors and killing things, bend or break prison bars, or in the druids case, scout and make the survival check. in addition, both can heal, and the oracle makes a good face.
in the witch or wizard's case, they get a mountain of skill points and free item creation feats, they can easily max out the scouting and trapfinding skills (stealth, perception, disable device), max out UMD, and take spellcraft, survival, and after enough intelligence bumps, have enough skill points to have a decent diplomacy, sense motive, fly, or acrobatics. through their high spellcraft, they can cheat the requirements to make a cheap pair of boots that grant trapfinding,
so with an
Oracle (beatstick, face, healer, battlefield controller)
Druid (beatstick, tracker, healer, battlefield controller)
Wizard (Roguish skills, item creation, battlefield controller)
Witch, (roguish skills, item creation, healer, battlefield control)
you can have the 4 basic roles covered
here, you have 2 beatsticks, 2 rogues, 2 crafters, 3 healers, a tracker, a face, 4 battlefield controllers, 3 potential summoners, and an animal companion can serve as a 3rd beatstick
Caster aren't broken unless you willfully misinterpret the rules and/or judge abilities without play-testing them.
No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Actually; a fighter does have resource limitations, the same Resource that everyone shares, Regardless of Class.
Hit Points
Everyone has the Hit point limit. I wasn't talking about that kind of play.
I see people talking up the out-of-combat role of casters but to my experience, most of that is potential to do something. The actual actions of a caster out-of-combat are few but powerful. It takes martials and skillmonkeys to actually move the narrative forward.
that is what i was saying
the hit point limit is shared by everyone
but the fighter has no way to replenish that limit without the help of a willing caster
but an oracle can be a beatstick, and still replinish their own hit point total every so often
No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Actually; a fighter does have resource limitations, the same Resource that everyone shares, Regardless of Class.
Hit Points
a fighter's hit points are limited by the following factors. some of these factors are beneficial in abundance, and some of them hinder you in abundance.
- the remaining spells of your caster buddies
- the remaining charges on your party's wands and staves
- the remaining potions and scrolls in your party's inventory
- your max HP total
- your defenses
- the damage output of your enemies
- your own damage output
- your tactics
- your group's tactics
- your coordination level
- the defenses of your enemies
- the defenses of your allies
- the damage output of your allies
- the max HP totals of your allies
- the max HP totals of your enemies
- any spells your enemy possesses
- any consumables your enemy possesses
- the amount of allies you posses
- the number of enemies you face
- the percentage of allied casters in your group
- the percentage of enemy casters in the opposing group
if you put the word caster in place of the word fighter at the beging of your post, you have the exact came result. this is not a limitation exclusive to the martial classes. if anything it is a clear advantage that they have because their HP is drastically higher then those of a caster, and with all the above factors in play, any way in which the caster can increase his HP, the fighter would most likely get the same as well simply by asking nicely. the smaller amount of HP that a caster has ends up being a weakness compared to a martial character because it requires him to 1) rest more often, or 2) expend those ohh so valuable spells per day
Caster aren't broken unless you willfully misinterpret the rules and/or judge abilities without play-testing them.
Or, equally, "Martials aren't weaker unless you willfully make up rules on the spot without play-testing them."
#8
cleric and druid are also casters, as is the oracle.an oracle or druid can have a high strength for breaking doors and killing things, bend or break prison bars, or in the druids case, scout and make the survival check. in addition, both can heal, and the oracle makes a good face.
Clerics and oracles require short-term buff spells to be martials and do what a martial can do out-of-combat.
Yeah yeah druids lols over everything, but they have paperwork to weigh them down. Wildshape allows them to play like sub-par martials if they really want too.
Clerics and oracles strength just does not compare to a martial without their buff spells. And if they are using buff spells to kick down a door, there is a problem.
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It seems one thing people keep forgetting, is that the game is designed, for, for arguement's sake, 4 specialists to work together. Each brings something to the table.
In the beginning of an adventuring team's carrier, the fighter does allot to protect the rest of the party. The rogue helps with backstabbing (Sneak Attacks), traps, scouting, and other social skills, The cleric helps bolster the party, heal the fighter, and back him up as well, the Wizard, uses his magic to "even the odds' for the party with sleep spells, color spray, greese, burning hands etc.
And later in their carriers, its the Wizard and the Cleric's turn to help protect the party with their magic. But the fighter and rogue are still necessary to give them space to cast spells.
So everyone has a place.
Just my two cents.
Fighter has virtually no ability to act as a tank and thus "protect" other party members. Rogues deal very low amount of damage and PF has reduced the number of ways to trigger sneak attack. Summoned minions can scout and serve as trap detectors with Charm person or a CHA caster covering social skills. The Cleric has much better things to do than Heal the fighter (seriously buy a wand and let him do it out of combat).
You would be much better off in your example replacing the Fighter and Rogue with a Summoner and a Inquisitor.
Anzyr I chose Fighter Rogue Cleric Wizard mainly because they are the basic bread and butter characters that the game started with, and are still useful.
The fighter has plenty of ability to protect the party. In a combat he/she usually unsheathes their weapon and engages the monster and begins carving off a flank steak. The fighter doesn't need a round or two to prepare. They are ready to go deal damage and engage the monsters. With their high AC the monster presumably won't hit the fighter with all of his attacks, and the fighter with plenty of hit points can take some hits.
The fighter isn't a tank. That isn't the fighters purpose. There is no Aggression in Pathfinder. The Monsters are all controlled by the GM not an algorithm in an MMO ( Unless the players's characters are themselves orphanage burning virgin sacrificing, monsters who enjoy their rapine and plunder)
The rogue, has several roles to play....trap removal, scouting possibly bluffing etc....and yes there is the Back stab, or now the sneak attack. That sneak attack is there to help the fighter bring down said monster more quickly.
Yes I have seen another player, while playing a Summoner, use its SLA Summon Monster V to summon a hound archon. that hound archon scouted an entire complex with his darkvision and teleport at will. ....however, the summoner was using an expendable resources to do so.
I happen to have an 11 level Inquisitor of Iomedae in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. He has been allot of fun to play. being both able to scout, and be an effective archer, with some spell support.....but he couldn't ever disable a trap. He isn't a rogue replacement.
I play clerics allot. In PFS I have a 14 level Mystic Theurge of Pharasma, a 10 level cleric of Asmodeus, an 7/1 Cleric/chavalier (with Axebeak) of Sarenrae, a 4th level Dhampire oracle of Life of Pharasma,
I often end up playing the cleric in the home games too. I know people often have said "heal after combat" but I can tell you from lots of experience playing a cleric, that a well timed Channel Positive energy, or Cure moderate wounds, or Cure serious wounds makes all the difference between the "Fighter" staying up to land a few more blows, or the entire party beginning to unravel.
From my experience the fighter and rogue are fun to play and I have found them to be valuable contributing members of an adventuring party.
There are many ways to play this game. There isn't a wrong one. I suppose my experience playing Pathfinder has been a little different from yours.
No, a Fighter cannot DO more. He USES nothing, but even with "unlimited resources" (though that's a misnomer) he DOES less than a caster does.
They simply have more versatility, utility, and story changing power that the Fighter can NEVER match.
They DO more, a limited number of times per day than a Fighter can do going non-stop for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Actually; a fighter does have resource limitations, the same Resource that everyone shares, Regardless of Class.
Hit Points
Everyone has the Hit point limit. I wasn't talking about that kind of play.
I see people talking up the out-of-combat role of casters but to my experience, most of that is potential to do something. The actual actions of a caster out-of-combat are few but powerful. It takes martials and skillmonkeys to actually move the narrative forward.
that is what i was saying
the hit point limit is shared by everyone
but the fighter has no way to replenish that limit without the help of a willing caster
but an oracle can be a beatstick, and still replinish their own hit point total every so often
But an oracle is limited by spells. They can't be a martial at all times. They make poor replacements.
Caster aren't broken unless you willfully misinterpret the rules and/or judge abilities without play-testing them.Or, equally, "Martials aren't weaker unless you willfully make up rules on the spot without play-testing them."
#8
I'm not quite sure how to take this statement.