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right now i'm playing in a fun (and sort of over the top) gestalt campaign. my current character is pretty optimized (a sorcerer/oracle), and i'm enjoying him, but he's a glass cannon so i've been thinking about a backup character... i think i'd like to try making a guy that instead of being great at one thing is good at everything (thus the subject line question). there are plenty of ways to get full BAB, all good saves, and decent skills (both quality and quantity), but what's the best all around build? Paladin/Ninja seems like a real contender (divine grace on top of all good saves, good Cha synergy, and great skills)... thoughts?
additional info: 30 point buy (so a little MAD isn't too bad), most of the characters are Aasimar or Tieflings, and there's no evil guys in the party (though it currently favors chaos)
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With a 30 point buy you could make in interesting Monk/Druid. Dependant upon level of course.
Fast movement, flurry with natural attacks (with the right feats) Add your Wisdom to AC, Excellent saves all round, Base attack will not be great but you have a full spell caster and one of the better of not the best spell lists.
Difficult to beat I feel.
Sic
the idea (which i apparently didn't make clear enough) is to be good at everything instead of great in a role... so party comp shouldn't really matter... but since you (atarlost) asked:
1. barbarian/inquisitor- super fast+mobile tank/dps, good skills
2. summoner/sorcerer[sylvan]- eidolon+AC=ridiculous (plus lots of spells)
3. wizard/alchemist[mindchemist]- lots of bombs, utility spells, ridiculous knowledges
4. cleric[merciful healer]/oracle[life]- outrageous heals
so pretty much every role is covered. and regardless, the thing i'm thinking about (and wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on) is what is a great (i know, you can't really say "best") combo for an interesting character that can fill in just about any role when someone else is unconscious or out of position (or on those occasions when i happen to be by myself)?
edit: we're currently level 4, but level pretty quickly
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Part of me wants to say barbarian/rogue (or ninja). It really kicks in at 10th. Basically take scout for your rogue archetype, go straight CaGM barbarian and use rogue stuff for whatever. The big thing is you're pouncing and sneak attacking with all those attacks. If you really want to go overboard on this, you can do TWF. A 2H and spiked armor, using as many rogue talents as you can to get feats. The barbarian with reckless abandon easily has the + to hit to shred anything. And on tip of all that you still have the skills of a rogue.
Paladin is just one of the best gestalt classes. Amazing abilities, and as most of them are swift action (as well as their spells) it adds tankiness and action economy to any other class. If your GM allows multiclassing, take a few levels of spec then search it to Dragon Disciple.
My final idea: ranger(or paladin for the charisma synergy, but you lose out on the awesome bonus feats)/bard going the archer route. This gives you a ton of ranged output another AC as if you needed any, and the inspire courage to boost your now very large party. Arcane Strike is an awesome damage boost for archers too, and bards are wry versatile. Bars archetype is up to you, as long as you don't get rid of inspire courage; you can pick up trapfinding or any other utility.
I love Sorc / Monk. The Monk AC with the Mage types is great, and good saves all around, and the fast movement with spells can be really nice. Empyreal bloodline gets Wisdom for your Spellcasting stat, which of course, works with Monk AC and Ch'i points. So need some ok stats for the rest, but can really pump Wis up for spells and monk. Decent skills, full spellpower, and decent Melee. Bonus is that you Get Channel Energy once a day later on.
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Scared witch/ barbarian
Full Bab, full casting both give you all the reason in the world to bost your con. You'll have alot of Hp.
While most would go with at least one class with magic options, I am going to suggest Invulnerable Barbarian/ Martial Artist monk.
The barbarian half take care of boosting your defenses to acceptable levels, and it also helps to pump up your attack and damage rolls. Martial artist both brings the flurry of blows (which is defined as a 'full attack action,' making it perfectly viable for a pounce), the ability to make a sense motive check to ignore DR, and the immunity to fatigue (making all of your 1/rage powers into 1/round at level 5).
Plus, you could go with an almost no items runs. No armor, no weapons. Heck, even the Amulet of Mighty Fists would be kind of an optional bonus since the rage takes care of your attack rolls and you can do a check to ignore DR. You might still like a head band to pump up your wisdom since it affects your saves, AC, and ability to pull of the aforementioned sense motive check.
barb/martial artist was definitely one i was considering... 1/rage powers working 1/round is sick, but he would be lacking in the magic department (still a possibility though).
any thoughts on Pally/Dervish Dancer?
full BAB, all good saves (plus divine grace), good skills, arcane and divine casting and right stats for UMD monkey... would be fairly MAD though... the dervish dancer feat could make Str pretty unimportant, or you could focus on Str (and Cha) and use a greatsword w/power attack to really take advantage of the bonus attack at 6th level- of course, 2wpn fighting would really maximize the stacking bonuses from inspire courage, smite evil, and arcane strike...
any thoughts on Pally/Dervish Dancer?
full BAB, all good saves (plus divine grace), good skills, arcane and divine casting and right stats for UMD monkey... would be fairly MAD though... the dervish dancer feat could make Str pretty unimportant, or you could focus on Str (and Cha) and use a greatsword w/power attack to really take advantage of the bonus attack at 6th level- of course, 2wpn fighting would really maximize the stacking bonuses from inspire courage, smite evil, and arcane strike...
The dawnflower dervish for bards could do you one better as a TWFer. it has a similar mechanic for inspire courage and such (as in it only affects you), but it gets double the effects. That would eventually be +10 to attack and damage. Combined with smite and any buff spells you want to pile on, you could do some serious damage.
Even so... the dervish dancer does get a pseudo-pounce at level 12 by combining full attacks, one move action, and large bonuses to speed that means you are basically doing a charge anyway. Actually pulling off your TWF full attacks could mean much more than simply getting more pluses.
fighter/bard does seem like an obvious option... part of the reason i hadn't called it out earlier was the hope that someone might have some specific archetype(s) they were excited to suggest that would make for a really interesting take on the combo. any ideas?
A Fighter/Zen Archer monk would be the unrivaled king of ranged combat, with a lot of scouting skills and high mobility.
A half-orc fighter/rogue using Surprise Follow Through and the Cleave feats would be an absolute monster at multiple target combat, as well as being able to annihilate single targets with a two-handed weapon and a flanking buddy.
A barbarian/cavalier would be an absurdly good mounted character, with high durability and scouting and social skills.
A paladin/monk would have ridiculous saves and mobility, and things like Crusaders Flurry and Adept Champion would boost damage/control potential.
A monk/unarmed fighter would be rolling in feats to make him an absolute monster at combat maneuvers and ass kicking.
A small sized paladin/summoner would have high saves, high AC, a highly customizable mount, armored casting, and access to some of the best buff spells.
fighter/bard does seem like an obvious option... part of the reason i hadn't called it out earlier was the hope that someone might have some specific archetype(s) they were excited to suggest that would make for a really interesting take on the combo. any ideas?
Well then, how about building off my previous comment. Why not make a dawnflower dervish brawler? I suggest brawler since it has the set up for making an extremely effective lockdown specialist (the other way of getting off a lot of full attacks besides some form of pouncing or pseudo pouncing)
This character would get an extra +15 to attack rolls and +17 to damage rolls while using battle dance. The dawnflower dervish also has the ability to do the poor man's lay on hand: they can turn a heal spell into a move and swift action, which still leaves a standard attack open.
Other options would be things the dervish dancer archetype for fighter, which get another pseudo pounce (sacrifices the highest BAB hit). Mobile fighter has the same advantage. You could also go with a Two weapon warrior, although I am unsure how it compares to brawler as a lockdown specialist.
i think if i was gonna go fighter/monk i'd either do archer/zen archer (which is, in fact, the unrivaled king of ranged combat) or lore warden/maneuver master (guisarme/trip, combat reflexes... i played a sick version of this as a multi-class character, i have to think he'd be outrageous as a gestalt guy).
and if i was gonna make a mounted guy i'd probably go cavalier/sohei- i know you'd lose rage/lance/pounce but you'd get better saves, a bunch of extra mounted feats, monastic mount on your AC (which seems kind of awesome), lance flurry, and honestly i just like the fluff better. hmmm...
barb 1/cavalier 1
barb 2/sohei 1
barb 3/sohei 2 (spend 3rd level feat on Boon Companion)
barb 4/sohei 3
barb 5/sohei 4
barb 6-10/cavalier 2-6
sohei 5-14/cavalier 7-16
end up with flurry/rage/lance/pounce, solid saves, good skills, full BAB, half d10s and half d12s for hp, a bunch of bonus mounted combat feats, and a full progression AC with the bonuses from monastic mount and furious mount... yikes
@atarlast- angel-kin aasimar (+2 Str/Cha)
I just had an idea. Dhampyr master summoner summoner/cleric focused on the undead. You would have far, far too many bodies on the field.
Use the eidolon as a skill monkey. Take a god that grants you negative energy channeling (which synergizes well with the summoner's casting and summomning SLA) so that you can heal both yourself and your undead hoard. Use summoning to bring up creatures with various special abilities. Also, you can still arm yourself pretty well so that you can help flank with any of these.
hmmm... i just had a thought- what about a ranger/witch?
full BAB, all good saves, tons of skills (6+Int, which will be high- might need a trait or archetype if want face skills, though), good control/debuff from hexes, decent in combat thanks to combat style feats, full arcane casting with heals and some status removers (especially if you take healing patron), plus a little divine casting (not much from a ranger, but enough to use some handy scrolls/wands)... the only real flaw i can think of is that AC will be a problem (will have to rely on spells and items or risk ASF). thoughts?
hmmm... i just had a thought- what about a ranger/witch?
full BAB, all good saves, tons of skills (6+Int, which will be high- might need a trait or archetype if want face skills, though), good control/debuff from hexes, decent in combat thanks to combat style feats, full arcane casting with heals and some status removers (especially if you take healing patron), plus a little divine casting (not much from a ranger, but enough to use some handy scrolls/wands)... the only real flaw i can think of is that AC will be a problem (will have to rely on spells and items or risk ASF). thoughts?
Well, ignoring the use of lighter armors (such as simple leather)and arcane armor training, you could just act like a ranger with hexes during combat and just fill up your witch's spell slots with utility spells, heals, and long term buffs that could be applied during a 10-20 minute break where you take off your armor, cast the spells, and then put the armor back on. Like you said, the witch has good heals and status removers.
Also, remember that there is the armored coat. Terrible in general, since it is medium armor that isn't any better than a chain shirt, but taking it off or putting it on is only a move action. Heck, you could use a quickened spell and never lose your AC during that turn (well, other than the fact that you draw all sorts AoO's)
@lemeres- good point... darkleaf studded leather is only 5% ASF (which might be good enough to just risk it...) and a mithril chain shirt is only 10%, which the 3rd level feat would negate- for that matter, even just with the 1st feat a mithril breastplate is only 5%. but using up a feat to wear expensive light or medium armor with no shield is not gonna give you a decent AC for very long, and the witch doesn't really get many good defensive spells... still a contender though.
How about this: Barbarian/Alchemist.
The advantage comes from the fact that their "spell casting" occurs when they prepare the extract, and actually using it is the same as using a potion. This means that rage does not interfere with them at all. And it is not like you would need to devote much to INT since alchemists are neither "full casters" that need large ability score to cast the higher level spells nor very big on spells that need high save DCs.
Of course, you also get the advantage of having both rage and mutagens. That leads to preposterous amounts of potential strength, or a lot of normal buffs that will always leave you with options.
Alchemists various discoveries alone could be great boons for a martial character (wings seems like the most immediate benefit)
I loved my Evocation(admixture) Wizard/Vivisectionist and Mindchemist alchemist.
Sneak attack, all good saves, Well rounded skill list, and cognatogen for DC increases.
the alchemist formulae was nice for healing, and between scrolls and potions I had something for about any situation.
If the sneak attack is not to your liking then bombs would also give you a lot of options when spells are low. We just were an all evil party that happened to like stealth as an option. The sneak attack did come in with a few niche spells nicely during said stealth.
Another player had a Word sorc/Battle oracle was one beast gish
Syntheist//anything that uses CHA
was the best one I heard so far. Dat old 'replace yer physical statz' is as broken as evar.
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Syntheist//anything that uses CHA
was the best one I heard so far. Dat old 'replace yer physical statz' is as broken as evar.
Right up until the first time you hit an anti-magic field and find yourself standing naked in front of something really nasty. Unable to move due to the weight of your own gear.
Then you need a new character.
I prefer to avoid terminal weaknesses.
Having played a fair bit of gestalt, there tends to be an arms race not of offense, but [i]defence[/.] Gestalt characters are expected to face greater challenges than those a typical party would encounter, and since their two classes merely use the best saves, not a combination of the two, you can quickly find yourself failing saves all over the show.
Have a way to shore up your saves against high CR enemies. AC may be a losing proposition unless you have a dedicated AC build, but it's generally easier to be in a place where you can't be attacked than it is to be a non-target for a spell or supernatural ability.
Last session, one member of the party (level 18) tanked for six rounds against something that was doing around 500 damage per round (assuming hits/failed saves). The rest of us poured in healing and defensive buffs.
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I would splash 1 level of Lore Oracle and go Paladin/Bard (archaeologist) so you can be a trap monkey, ignore Dex (use Cha for AC and Ref Save) and go to town on Str, Con, Int, and CHA. Make as much out of Cha as you can AND you get a ton of skills, great saves, decent armor capabilities (mithral medium to still cast with no penalty), tons of skills, 1 feat gives you your Cha to Knowledges. You can do ALMOST everything (ranged is not your best friend).
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Having played a fair bit of gestalt, there tends to be an arms race not of offense, but [i]defence[/.] Gestalt characters are expected to face greater challenges than those a typical party would encounter, and since their two classes merely use the best saves, not a combination of the two, you can quickly find yourself failing saves all over the show.
Synthesist/Kensai wins the AC race.
For saves, only a paladin or superstitious barbarian beats the curve.
Yha, i tried to talk a DM into letting me bypass the alignment restriction and play a human superstitious invulnerable rager paladin... his concept was "Righteous Fury".
... it didn't happen, but damn would he have been a wrecking ball.
Ranger/wizard. Full BAB, d10, all good saves, good skills, the best full arcane spells and even a few divine spells, and an animal buddy to watch your back.
Personally I would go synthesist ninja, or if permitted 3rd party material, synthesist talented rogue.
You essentially could at that point do anything and do it well. Heck with a 30 point buy you might want to even go normal summoner, and keep your eidolon a separate entity.
Ranger/wizard. Full BAB, d10, all good saves, good skills, the best full arcane spells and even a few divine spells, and an animal buddy to watch your back.
... and a Familiar. Toss in Boon Companion, Improved Familiar, and a host of summoning feats, and you're really looking at soem serious action economy.
though a summoner/anything could pretty much accomplish the same thing (admittedly with far less arcane flexibility).
The idea I like is a Monk/Inquisitor.
The Inquisitor powers pump up any Monk damage in flurry as well as boosting to hit enough to remove any concern in that regard. Once you pass 11th you will have both Stalwart and Evasion, so spells will mostly be a joke to you. With a 30 point buy, there's not much concern about MAD (and Wisdom is key stats on both). You would have good interpersonal skill tricks from the Inquisitor and good physical skill tricks from the monk. It's a very durable jack of all trades.
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Ranger/wizard. Full BAB, d10, all good saves, good skills, the best full arcane spells and even a few divine spells, and an animal buddy to watch your back.
On any given round your acting as either a wizard or a ranger.
The most effective builds allow you to fully use all abilities from both classes simultaneously.
Fighter/Barbarian comes to mind.
Hmm, casters are OP, wizards are gods, but most combos suggested are melee. Are you all trying to say gestalt is the only way melee is good?
Can't help but think that an Inquisitor/Paladin would be a terror against evil foes. You'd annihilate anything evil, and anything that isn't evil, Judgement and Bane still work on. Between the Healing, Protection, and Lay on Hands, you could tank for days, while ripping through foes.
Hmm, casters are OP, wizards are gods, but most combos suggested are melee. Are you all trying to say gestalt is the only way melee is good?
Actually, it seems there are more melee/caster combos that just melee combos, but more melee combos than caster/caster combos. As awesome as a caster/caster may be, he'd have a crap-ton of spells, but only 1 action per round to use them. The caster/melee seems more along the lines of survivability + casting.
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Hmm, casters are OP, wizards are gods, but most combos suggested are melee. Are you all trying to say gestalt is the only way melee is good?
1. Gestalt does nothing to address the fact that wizards have a hard time casting in armor.
2. For all that people complain about casters being overpowered in theory, when you actually sit at the game table the melee characters are the ones running around doing most of the killinng.
Ranger/wizard. Full BAB, d10, all good saves, good skills, the best full arcane spells and even a few divine spells, and an animal buddy to watch your back.On any given round your acting as either a wizard or a ranger.
The most effective builds allow you to fully use all abilities from both classes simultaneously.
True, but at the same time, the best-used wizards i've seen pick and choose when to act "most wizardly"... that is, when to use their highly-potent spells at just the right time or situation to help the team dominate any given combat.
Given that, wizards often find themselves with little to do in many situations. And this is why the Improved Familiar Wizard could be an awesome combo with a Switch-hitter Ranger sporting a Boon Companion.
It builds in so much more tactical flexibility on top of some much-needed defensive robustness.
You'd get to drop those massive, fight-altering SoS/Buff/Debuff/Control spells when it's needed, then get to step into either a melee or ranged combat role when they're not... all the while you're getting to have your air-borne support (mephit/quasit) cruise the skies looking to drop wand-nukes on key targets and command your Panzer (Boon lion compnanion) into optimal positions to help control melee combat flow.
It's about bringing amazing tactical flexibility and options to one of the most game-changing (if situational) classes in the game. :)