Question's in the title. All of these descriptions in statblocks talk about successful saves making one immune "to the same [name of creature]'s ability for 24 hours."
Does that mean a low-level party, when faced by multiple yeth hounds, will almost certainly drop their weapons and run away?
I think increasing the DC makes sense: Maybe +1 or +2 for each additional creature.
I just reread the special ability: "When a yeth hound howls or barks, all creatures except other evil outsiders within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds... Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same hound's bay for 24 hours."
One could stretch the language a bit: if having all the hounds act on the same initiative count, then all the howls are simultaneous and can be treated as one howl.
While we're at it, does this require an action on the yeth hound's part?
If we're dealing with more-intelligent creatures with similar fear effects, I could see them spacing out their uses of the ability. I guess there's no getting around that: but I suppose a resourceful party would find a way to counter it before the second round (a silence spell, an anti-fear spell, etc.).
They would have to make five saving throws, assuming everybody was in the range of the Yeth Hound's noise and could hear it etc.
Acting on the same initiative count does not mean you are acting simultaneously. There is no way to act simultaneously in this game.
Worried someone might actually make one of those five saving throws? Throw in an anti-paladin for good measure :D
The last sentence says "the same hound's bay" so it makes sense to have seperate saving throws too.
If they could breathe fire, would you let a PC make 5 Reflex saves? Why would it be different for the howls?
The wording is pretty clear to me, you're only immune to a particular hound's ability, not to all Yeth hounds.
Eeyup. It's 5 bays, meaning 5 saves.
They're kinda like Pugwampis, they're the kind of foe that becomes exponentially harder to beat the higher their numbers grow.
In one of the APs my party got attacked by eight mummies simultaneously.
Going by the rules, we should all have been paralyzed (someone with a 75% chance of making one save has only a 10% chance of making them all) and slaughtered while helpless.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeth, they do.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeth, they do.
I was going to tell you that you should be ashamed of yourself for this. Mostly I think I'm bummed I didn't think of it first.
I just reread the special ability: "When a yeth hound howls or barks, all creatures except other evil outsiders within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds... Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same hound's bay for 24 hours."
Yes, all supernatural abilities are standard actions to start unless noted.
If they could breathe fire, would you let a PC make 5 Reflex saves? Why would it be different for the howls?Partly out of an acknowledgement of the emotional reactions that the saving throw mechanic is trying to represent. Once you're scared, you're scared no matter how many times you get... scared - so by inference, once you're unimpressed, you're unimpressed no matter how many times they try to scare you. (How much sense does this make from a narrative perspective; "The first three were not really scary, but this fourth howling demon dog I want my mommy!")
This is why I prefer just one save (increasingly difficult as the number of hounds goes up). It's also quicker to resolve.
If they could breathe fire, would you let a PC make 5 Reflex saves? Why would it be different for the howls?Partly out of an acknowledgement of the emotional reactions that the saving throw mechanic is trying to represent. Once you're scared, you're scared no matter how many times you get... scared - so by inference, once you're unimpressed, you're unimpressed no matter how many times they try to scare you. (How much sense does this make from a narrative perspective; "The first three were not really scary, but this fourth howling demon dog I want my mommy!")
But mainly because when my PCs go running off at top speed with their tails between their legs, I want it to be because I put the Fear of the GM in 'em - not because they couldn't make five consecutive Will saves. ;)
The fear is not based on logic. If it were then you could compare howling outsiders to some other thing you faced and just be like "these are not as scary as those". The magic overrides your brain and induces fear. Maybe each howl imparts images of what could happen into your mind, and where one hound failed, another succeeded. :)
Yup 5 saves, most GM's however won't have all five howl at once. Two howl 3 attack, that sort of thing. Then they can switch it up in later rounds. It can be pretty bad, but that is what remove fear is for or a paladin.
RAW = 5 saves.
That being said, I'd rule that Yeth hounds hunting in a pack are definitely intelligent enough not to bay all at the same time like completely mindless beasts. They'd stagger the ability and adjust as necessary if someone isn't running in fear.
I'd also rule that if for some reason they come upon a group that does decide to bay all simultaneously, I'd use one increasing DC.
|
Question's in the title. All of these descriptions in statblocks talk about successful saves making one immune "to the same [name of creature]'s ability for 24 hours."
Does that mean a low-level party, when faced by multiple yeth hounds, will almost certainly drop their weapons and run away?
If those 5 Yeth hounds let out that special howl/roar, yeah, 5 saves are rolled. May the force be with that party >_>
Even a Monk or Wizard will have a 22.62% chance of failing 1 of 5 saves by rolling a natural 1.
- Gauss
Monsters with save or lose/die become massively harder in big groups, far more so than the normal CR / ECL calculations for a bunch of monsters well below the level of the PC's would indicate. Because yeah, there's always the nat 1, they're going to fail a save eventually.
A whole lot of mind flayers in 3E (not in PF, thankfully... copyrighted monster) was a pretty good example of this. You get a handful of them; it doesn't matter what level the party is, there's a chance of a TPK.
|
In one of the APs my party got attacked by eight mummies simultaneously.
Going by the rules, we should all have been paralyzed (someone with a 75% chance of making one save has only a 10% chance of making them all) and slaughtered while helpless.
Pretty sure we just did that encounter (Book 5?)and somehow everyone failed a save except the cleric. Wasn't enough to save the fighter (coup'd sadly) but we managed to barely survive.
I think if I had that situation come up in one my adventures I would prolly do the increased DC method. 6 high teen will saves is just begging for a TPK.
Okay, then, I'll do it: DrDeth, you thould be athhamed of yourthelf.
I should use an athame on myself?
;-)
|
|
5 saves, though that is a pretty horrible encounter for a low level party or even a higher level party. Your not so much challenging them as opposed to forcing them all to fail. Even a character with good saves is bound to roll low at least once unless they are exceptionally lucky.
It'd almost be more "fair" if you treated it like multiple doses of poison and just make the DC +8 and have one check, the outcome will likely be the same.
You do not become unafraid if that is what you are asking.
Fear effects stack by the normal rules so failing more than once should push you to the next stage of fear unless otherwise stated.
In one of the APs my party got attacked by eight mummies simultaneously.
Going by the rules, we should all have been paralyzed (someone with a 75% chance of making one save has only a 10% chance of making them all) and slaughtered while helpless.
Been there, done that, a PFS scenario has an encounter with 5 mummies. I was the only person besides the paladin that was not paralyzed.
Fortunately, it was a 5' corridor.