Before it even comes up--> I did include rake in the cat's DPR so the cat gets 67.91 with everything included.
So first lets compare Eidolon to Animal Companion at 12th level
Eidolon BAB +9, Saves +6/+3, skills 36 feats 5 armor +10 str/dex +5 evol 16Animal Companion: bab +7 saves +7/+3, skills 10 feats 5 armor +8 str/Dex +4
This is, essentially, a push. Maybe a slight edge to the Eidoln due to the skill point difference. But very comparable
Wait, what? The Eidolon is better in literally every category. More BAB, 26 more skills, same feats, more strength/dex, AND Evolution.
You didn't even mention:
d10 vs. d8 HD.
Eidolon can speak your languages
Eidolon requires no tricks, has no limitation on feats, needs no Handle Animal rolls, etc.
How is that a push? That's Eidolon domination.
actually i saw a aasimarr druid this past Saturday and the celestial tiger was in all ways more effective than my Eidolon.
Yeah, I'm willing to bet your eidolon is not built very well. I bet you went with a biped instead of a quadraped. The reach and extra strength is nice, but nothing tops Pounce, that's why the Tiger won.
Pounce > every other option
I can't see any way to make the numbers work where the Eidolon is worse than a Tiger unless I don't buy optimal evolutions.
I dont know if you can rend twice, but even if not the Eidolon is ahead with no rends. That is just damage.As far as I can tell you can.
Emphasis mine.
Rend (Ex): An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon's Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
Thanks for the info. There is no "once per round" limitation.
28 Strength at level 9(14 base + 3 advancement +1 ability score increase +6 Large +2 Evolution))
Bite +16 (1d8+9)
4 Claws +16 (1d6+9)
Rend(1d6+13)
Rend(1d6+13)Pounce
Power Attack(-2 Attack/+4 Damage)I'm not worried about the Eidolon.
-5 to each of those and kitty also has rend and about 40 more hit points. Kitty wins.
Rend is on my too do list. Dont need quad for that.
like the points made about focusing on all natural to not split efforts. Need to consider that. goes against the theme a bit , but its a good point.There is no -5. Those are primary attacks unless the eidolon has a rules exception for claws.
How is the cat getting rend? If you are saying at higher levels you can get it, then the eidolon also improves at higher levels. Right now at level 9 the kitty is behind, so now it does not win.
PS:You might want a rules quote for that cat getting rend because I dont know of any of the hard covers giving it out, but I may be mistaken.
If you want to push this to a higher level you can, but the cat will fall further behind.
-5 damage per attack is per damage reduction with the celestial template
Rake not rend comes with the level 7 advancement for big cats for free
The eidolon is not fighting the cat. This is not PvP. The idea is to see which one is better vs bad guys. Right now the cat is losing, and if I account for 2 rends then it will be losing by even more when deciding which one is more useful to the party.
Not only is the eidolon ahead when killing the enemies the party faces it can also do things besides fight. Once per day the cat can smite, but for the rest of the day the eidolon is ahead, but I will do the smite damage also assuming you are fighting something evil.
So once per day you can do 92.79 vs evil opponents.
Then once that opponent dies the eidolon is still ahead in damage and utility.
Kitty is still behind. And don't forget I did not give the eidolon any magic items like I did for the cat.
No problem, wraithstrike.
Now let's make the Eidolon even stronger. Extra Evolution for more evolution points, Half-Elf for the favored class bonus(more evolution points again) and Wild Caller(more evolution points yet again).
while we are on the subject of DR, don't +4 enhancements bypass aligned DR's? my player favor special abilities so it never comes up.
+5 bypass alignment
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-5 damage per attack is per damage reduction with the celestial template
Rake not rend comes with the level 7 advancement for big cats for free
You keep saying for free, but you are ignoring the fact that its not free, its what the big cat gets. Its like saying the eidolon gets 13 points of evolutions for free. And while yes the cat has DR, it is equally ineffective against targets with dr as the eidolon. So in terms of their offensive effectiveness in a party, the eidolon is way ahead. In terms of defensive options it doesnt have dr, but it could have fast healing, or it could have wings and fly away from danger. Again, there isnt even a comparison here.
The big cat has ZERO advantages over a quadraped large pouncing eidolon, which is the only thing it should be compared against as they are similar form. If you want to compare a medium biped using weapons against an animal companion, it should be against an ape, that chose not to advance to large size at 4th level(thus only geting +2 dex and +2 con) that put a point into int so it could take weapon proficiency feats and use them. (hint the ape isnt as good)
+5 bypass alignment
thanks, I'll try to remember it this time.
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yes not PVP, I did not start that line of reasoning, feel pulled into it really looking at the history.
This is all about one feat, celestial servant, and how it equals 11 evo points. And how, again, that is not in balance, as i have seen in game.
You are comparing OUT OF CONTEXT. It doesnt matter how many evolution points one feat is. The eidolon is still vastly superior to the animal companion if you compare like forms. An optimized eidolon is probably the most powerful and versatile melee combatant in the game. An animal companion, regardless of type is not. Therefore it is not unbalanced for the feat to not affect eidolons, its the opposite, its balancing as it gives a boost to animal companions. And they still come up short in offense and defense when compared to the eidolon.
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yes not PVP, I did not start that line of reasoning, feel pulled into it really looking at the history.
This is all about one feat, celestial servant, and how it equals 11 evo points. And how, again, that is not in balance, as i have seen in game.
Your in-game example of your sub-par eidolon not being able to compete with an at-par AC is not, in and of itself, proof of something being out of balance. As everyone has shown, the potential of the eidolon handily outstrips that of the AC, even with this supposedly "broken" feat, which as I have mentioned previously, can be as much curse as gift.
You cannot compare your rotten apple to a well formed orange, you have to compare a well built AC to a well built Eidolon, and when that is done, the Eidolon is a better contributor on all fronts, with more skills, better mobility, more damage, and better enhance-ability.
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yes not PVP, I did not start that line of reasoning, feel pulled into it really looking at the history.
This is all about one feat, celestial servant, and how it equals 11 evo points. And how, again, that is not in balance, as i have seen in game.
It does not matter how many evo points you think it equals to. It only matters how an optimized eidolon performs against an optomized cat in the game for the purpose of what you are saying about the cat being better.
So far the eidolon is ahead, as the best choice..
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Now if your argument is that one feat should not equal 11 evo points, that is far different from:
"An animal companion with that feat would own the equivalent Eidolon. Please tell me i am not the first to notice this massive disparity in power levels this gives everyone but Eidolons. "
Which has been shown here to not be true.
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You can't even talk about how much the feat is worth in Evolution points because it's not a currency that means anything to any of the creatures the feat can apply to.
I mean, how many Evolution points is Sneak Attack worth? Or a Magus' Spell Combat? The comparison means nothing.
The feat is a good boost to Animal Companions, but it doesn't have anything to do with Eidolons--Eidolons are still insanely better. If anything, a non-Aasimar Ranger/Druid/Oracle of Nature/Sylvan Sorcerer should be the one complaining because it buffs their pet significantly more than any other feat possibly could.
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You can't even talk about how much the feat is worth in Evolution points because it's not a currency that means anything to any of the creatures the feat can apply to.
I mean, how many Evolution points is Sneak Attack worth? Or a Magus' Spell Combat? The comparison means nothing.
The feat is a good boost to Animal Companions, but it doesn't have anything to do with Eidolons--Eidolons are still insanely better. If anything, a non-Aasimar Ranger/Druid/Oracle of Nature/Sylvan Sorcerer should be the one complaining because it buffs their pet significantly more than any other feat possibly could.
Those are actually the worst classes to take this feat. As I mentioned earlier, the Animal Companions Spell Resistance from the feat will actually prevent it's owner from buffing them easily.
The guys who really make out are those aasimar cavaliers and carnivalist rogues.....| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I dont know if you can rend twice, but even if not the Eidolon is ahead with no rends. That is just damage.As far as I can tell you can.
Emphasis mine.
Rend (Ex): An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon's Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.Thanks for the info. There is no "once per round" limitation.
There is. Forum errata:
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So if the pets are equal the we can compare the casters. Fre SMx multiple times a day, full casting. Lower level entries for many powerful,spells, a companion that never dies and always obeys.... That's just off the top of my head. I've only played a lvl 1 bipedal summoner (the ap was not enjoyed by all).
Maybe it's just me but I very rarely see an aasimar that has levels in a class that grants an animal companion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an aasimar druid, cavalier, etc. Paladins usually choose the divine weapon option. Their non-neutral nature would make a druid aasimar pretty rare IMO. I doubt you will see that feat used much at all.Not quite true, I'm contemplating building an Aasimar Oracle of Nature
Take the Bounded Mount Revelation, then use the favored class bonus to get +1/2 to your level to that revelation and take Celestial Servant. So at 8th level you have a 12th level animal companion with the celestial template and a magical beast; that's 10 HD, 10 BAB (Magical Beast means HD = BAB) and the celestial template is in full force at 10 HD.
...but even given all that, to call the Eidolon underpowered is... Beyond the pale? xD Eidolons are really, really strong.
I am not sure if tagging it a magicl beast raises the HD or the BAB.
I'm not sure the SR thing would be that big of an issue. You don't necessarily need to push an animal/magical beast to lower its SR. If its friendly towards you and knows/trusts you, it should probably of its own accord accept spells the same as it would accept pets and food from you. It lower it SR to accept spells from you isn't something you should need to command.
Tricks let you command an animal to do something it would normally do. For example, you don't have to use the "Come" command constantly just to make sure your animal companion follows you around. For the most part, if is your companion it will do so of its own accord. You only have to use "Come" when for some reason the animal isn't doing so normally.
Same with other commands, your companion can attack things without you issuing the "Attack" command. If it happens to be sleeping outside and a rat wanders by, it will likely attack, kill, and eat the rat without you ever even knowing about it... unless you've specifically trained it never to do such things.
Its a GMs call, but I have a hard time believing a druid's companion won't normally accept their masters spells without being commanded to do so first... again, anymore then they wouldn't accept food or attention from their master.
Edit: And if your GM is being harsh, I suppose since we're talking about magical beasts, you could buy/make a cheap INT enhancing collar to push its INT above 2 and not worry about trick at all anymore.
Actually pushing the int above two still requires the tricks to be used, and animals are every restricted about what they can do. They would need to be pushed to lower SR. There is even a trick to flank, IIRC.
I am not sure if tagging it a magicl beast raises the HD or the BAB.Maybe it's just me but I very rarely see an aasimar that has levels in a class that grants an animal companion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an aasimar druid, cavalier, etc. Paladins usually choose the divine weapon option. Their non-neutral nature would make a druid aasimar pretty rare IMO. I doubt you will see that feat used much at all.Not quite true, I'm contemplating building an Aasimar Oracle of Nature
Take the Bounded Mount Revelation, then use the favored class bonus to get +1/2 to your level to that revelation and take Celestial Servant. So at 8th level you have a 12th level animal companion with the celestial template and a magical beast; that's 10 HD, 10 BAB (Magical Beast means HD = BAB) and the celestial template is in full force at 10 HD.
...but even given all that, to call the Eidolon underpowered is... Beyond the pale? xD Eidolons are really, really strong.
Unlike 3.5 the celestial template does not make it into a magical beast, so Chort was incorrect. Bonded Mount does not do it either.
If lowering sr is a standard action how are you going to cast spells bypassing it? It's not like an ac can take actions during the druids turn, so would the druid have to ready an action to cast maybe?
Unlike 3.5 the celestial template does not make it into a magical beast, so Chort was incorrect. Bonded Mount does not do it either.I am not sure if tagging it a magicl beast raises the HD or the BAB.Maybe it's just me but I very rarely see an aasimar that has levels in a class that grants an animal companion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an aasimar druid, cavalier, etc. Paladins usually choose the divine weapon option. Their non-neutral nature would make a druid aasimar pretty rare IMO. I doubt you will see that feat used much at all.Not quite true, I'm contemplating building an Aasimar Oracle of Nature
Take the Bounded Mount Revelation, then use the favored class bonus to get +1/2 to your level to that revelation and take Celestial Servant. So at 8th level you have a 12th level animal companion with the celestial template and a magical beast; that's 10 HD, 10 BAB (Magical Beast means HD = BAB) and the celestial template is in full force at 10 HD.
...but even given all that, to call the Eidolon underpowered is... Beyond the pale? xD Eidolons are really, really strong.
Celestial Template does not make it into a magical beast; this does:
Celestial Servant
Rather than being a normal animal or beast, your companion or familiar hails from the heavenly realms.
Prerequisites: Aasimar, animal companion, familiar, or mount class feature.
Benefit: Your animal companion, familiar, or mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast, though you may still treat it as an animal when using Handle Animal, wild empathy, or any other spells or class abilities that specifically affect animals.
EDIT:
@Finlanderboy: It doesn't raise the HD; it's the Aasimar favored class bonus that raises it's HD. 8th level Aasimar +4 levels from fcb means 12th level animal companion. 12th level means 10 HD.
Becoming a Magical Beast if it means anything, means that it's BAB becomes equal to its HD, which is unlike animals, which have BAB equal to 3/4 HD.
(and HD becomes d10 instead of d8 and you gain darkvision)
An animal companion far superior to an eidolon?
Okay, let's play that game. The rules are apparently that you compare each in the most beneficial way to one. Okay, how does a DPR of over 400 at level 14 sound? Using three feats on the character, and three feats on the eidolon, two buffs and only one magical item which is used to cast one of those buffs. So plenty of room for improvements. How many rounds do you think you need to survive? Rocket tag indeed.
Or how about a single natural attack of 12d10+str (at level 13), of which you easily can have four (actually, you could theoretically have five, but you would have to forego your free natural attack).
An animal companion might be better at survival, but to call it superior is comparing the strengths of a companion, with the weakest points of an eidolon. It is like watching George W Bush Jr. talk about his paintings, silly and you learn nothing.
Is Celestial Servant a strong feat? Yes, yes it is.
(the threads where the builds are:
Kaliinsanity (mine): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592&page=22
In Soviet Russia, arms slam you (grarrrg from the giantitp forum): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245496 )
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Do you realise you sound like all fighters, rogues, and anyone else complaining that the Eidolon left them in the dust? I really wanted to say that much harder but toned it down to try to stay on this side of not being a jerk.
The designers say they do not aim to make everything perfectlybalanced against one another. They also point out too many people look at combat potential and judge only by it , ignoring how some classes are better out of combat. Even at 7 int, an Eidolon can do much more than an animal companion.
I would not want to see everything.in.balance, that would make too many things the same.
If someone thinks they can have fun with the image in their head of a fighter or rogue. Then they should enjoy that part of their character. If they want to.complain about someone else out damaging them, maybe they should.stop pretending to be role players and admit they also have roll playing requirements if their own. So what if someone does more damage, if you enjoy playing a Summoner, play a Summoner. It is more important you enjoy what you built than obsess about only being in te top 2 or 3 percent instead of the top 1 percent.
I do not want to.leave the thread without reminding people. Pounce requires a clear charge line. Easy with flight but not without. Even allies block charges, so do corners and differcult terrain.
I also do not believe in the concept of one player always being able to solo a mod. If the enemy concentrated all their firepower on one person, and the player received no aid at all from anyone else, soloing the mod would mean the enemy were nothing but chumps. When I read the mods to GM myself, I often do think the enemy are chumps but that us what you get when a publisher writes adventures that even new players with no system mastery can defeat
Celestial servant gives the celestial template, and ALSO makes it count as a magical beast. Take one of your skill increases for the AC, increase it's intelligence, and it gains a language known, and shouldn't require tricks (it's a sentient magical being that you can talk to...). The feat says you CAN still use handle animal on it, not that you HAVE TO.
Since you can talk to it, and it can understand you, and is inherently loyal to you, couldn't you just say "hey kitty, lower your SR a second"?
Just one thing, you really don't get the strength increase evolutions for eidolons once you go Large. 4 evo points for 2 strength just isn't a good deal. Often you are too busy getting things like energy attack, flight, filling out your natural attacks, improving AC.
Just one thing, you really don't get the strength increase evolutions for eidolons once you go Large. 4 evo points for 2 strength just isn't a good deal. Often you are too busy getting things like energy attack, flight, filling out your natural attacks, improving AC.
Str increase as as an ability increase for a Large Eidolon is not a great deal, no. Str increase as a way to bank 4 of the 6 points you are going to need to push the Eidolon to Huge, very good deal.
Huh? There is no reason to bank points, so no, not really.
I still agree that an average eidolon is better than an average animal companion, but the str evolutions aren't worth it most of the time. Take the time to build up a few different summoners and you will see what I'm saying.
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I'm not sure the SR thing would be that big of an issue. You don't necessarily need to push an animal/magical beast to lower its SR. If its friendly towards you and knows/trusts you, it should probably of its own accord accept spells the same as it would accept pets and food from you. It lower it SR to accept spells from you isn't something you should need to command.
This is not how it works. For a pet to do something in combat, you need to tell it what to do for it to act outside of its normal tendencies. Lowering your spell resistance is a standard action and since there is no trick to tell your animal companion to do it, you have to push it. This means, you have to burn a move action to tell your AC to burn a standard action so you can buff it. If you are tracking your Animal Companion's initiative separately from your own, it actually becomes impossible to buff your animal companion without the Spell Resistance interfering, because SR automatically resets at the beginning of the creature's next turn.
That means, especially for PFS play which the OP is referencing, that SR actually hurts the druid's Animal Companion more than it helps.|
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Celestial servant gives the celestial template, and ALSO makes it count as a magical beast. Take one of your skill increases for the AC, increase it's intelligence, and it gains a language known, and shouldn't require tricks (it's a sentient magical being that you can talk to...). The feat says you CAN still use handle animal on it, not that you HAVE TO.
Since you can talk to it, and it can understand you, and is inherently loyal to you, couldn't you just say "hey kitty, lower your SR a second"?
I'm going to dig around and see if I can find it, but there was a dev clarification that even if your animal companion has an INT of 3 or better, it is still an animal and requires Handle Animal checks to convince it to do things. So raising your Animal Companion's INT does not obviate the need for Handle Animal checks, it changes the dynamic a bit. If anything, I'd say it'd be even harder to talk your cat into attacking a dragon if it had a level of sentience, since it can actually understand exactly what a bad idea that is.......
***EDIT*** And here is the PFS take on it, which is pertinent to the conversation at hand-
That means, especially for PFS play which the OP is referencing, that SR actually hurts the druid's Animal Companion more than it helps.
Just ready action your spell and buff away.
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Just ready action your spell and buff away.
That means, especially for PFS play which the OP is referencing, that SR actually hurts the druid's Animal Companion more than it helps.
You're still burning a move action for the player and a standard action for the Animal Companion. During the round the druid spent readying her buff and that her animal companion spent lowering its SR, the summoner could have already cast Haste and his Eidolon has probably already dropped at least one enemy. Celestial Servant isn't a bad feat, but doesn't even come remotely close to putting Animal Companions above Eidolons. The OP's issue is that he was comparing the highest damaging Animal Companion build against his sub-par Eidolon build. If the druid had been running an Ape animal companion with the Celestial Servant feat, he'd have had a better idea of the comparative powers.
Also, a lot of GMs and players don't actually understand how Spell Resistance works, which can contribute to characters performing at a higher level than is actually legal since the players aren't spending the appropriate actions.I would say unless the character with Spell Resistance also happens to be the one casting the buffing spells, Spell Resistance is a 0 value ability. When you consider that offensive casters are far more likely to take feats like Spell Penetration than buffing and healing casters, and that enemy casters are typically a level or two ahead of the party, Spell Resistance is almost a negative value in that it is likely to get in the way of friendly spells much more often than it is to actually stop enemy spells.
The people actually getting real, tangible benefit from Celestial Servant are non-casters with full progression pets, and I highly doubt we're going to be seeing anyone who can seriously claim that the cavalier's horse is out-performing their eidolon.
I'm not sure the SR thing would be that big of an issue. You don't necessarily need to push an animal/magical beast to lower its SR. If its friendly towards you and knows/trusts you, it should probably of its own accord accept spells the same as it would accept pets and food from you. It lower it SR to accept spells from you isn't something you should need to command.
This is not how it works. For a pet to do something in combat, you need to tell it what to do for it to act outside of its normal tendencies. Lowering your spell resistance is a standard action and since there is no trick to tell your animal companion to do it, you have to push it. This means, you have to burn a move action to tell your AC to burn a standard action so you can buff it. If you are tracking your Animal Companion's initiative separately from your own, it actually becomes impossible to buff your animal companion without the Spell Resistance interfering, because SR automatically resets at the beginning of the creature's next turn.
That means, especially for PFS play which the OP is referencing, that SR actually hurts the druid's Animal Companion more than it helps.
Pushing an animal is a full round action. Core rules, page something (I'm drunk):
"Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action."
Having your companion at int 2 is a bad idea,
Link (Ex)
A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.
And the lesson is, don't post while drunk.
Just ready action your spell and buff away.
That means, especially for PFS play which the OP is referencing, that SR actually hurts the druid's Animal Companion more than it helps.You're still burning a move action for the player and a standard action for the Animal Companion. During the round the druid spent readying her buff and that her animal companion spent lowering its SR, the summoner could have already cast Haste and his Eidolon has probably already dropped at least one enemy. Celestial Servant isn't a bad feat, but doesn't even come remotely close to putting Animal Companions above Eidolons. The OP's issue is that he was comparing the highest damaging Animal Companion build against his sub-par Eidolon build. If the druid had been running an Ape animal companion with the Celestial Servant feat, he'd have had a better idea of the comparative powers.
Also, a lot of GMs and players don't actually understand how Spell Resistance works, which can contribute to characters performing at a higher level than is actually legal since the players aren't spending the appropriate actions.I would say unless the character with Spell Resistance also happens to be the one casting the buffing spells, Spell Resistance is a 0 value ability. When you consider that offensive casters are far more likely to take feats like Spell Penetration than buffing and healing casters, and that enemy casters are typically a level or two ahead of the party, Spell Resistance is almost a negative value in that it is likely to get in the way of friendly spells much more often than it is to actually stop enemy spells.
The people actually getting real, tangible benefit from Celestial Servant are non-casters with full progression pets, and I highly doubt we're going to be seeing anyone who can seriously claim that the cavalier's horse is out-performing their eidolon.
Look, I don't disagree with your principle, just pointing out a few holes in the arguments people are making.
Your claim was you couldn't buff a celestrial pet 'at all' which is wrong. With long duration spells like Barkskin you might be buffing way before combat. Much like the claim that all Eidolons are large with two strength evolutions it's just wrong.
Eidolons are stronger, just argue it properly.
so we have established that SR is a pain but not insurmountable. It does take a lot of the awesome out of share spells however.
stuffs
@Finlanderboy: It doesn't raise the HD; it's the Aasimar favored class bonus that raises it's HD. 8th level Aasimar +4 levels from fcb means 12th level animal companion. 12th level means 10 HD.
Becoming a Magical Beast if it...
I meant rasies the hit die, I should ahve thought better than that, but you got the right answer.
Now the AC uses the druids stats. I am not sure if becoming a magical animal overrides the druid AC stat block is the question. Since they have a decided BAB for the AC. Grnated it is off the 3/4s rule. I would prefer a ruling to where each DM has a right to decide and table variation.
I meant rasies the hit die, I should ahve thought better than that, but you got the right answer.
Now the AC uses the druids stats. I am not sure if becoming a magical animal overrides the druid AC stat block is the question. Since they have a decided BAB for the AC. Grnated it is off the 3/4s rule. I would prefer a ruling to where each DM has a right to decide and table variation.
Whoops, I thought you were referring to the animal companion having 10 HD as opposed to the 7 HD you'd expect a level 8 animal companion would have. ...you meant having a d10 Hit Die, raised from d8.
As to the other part, I think it's clear cut? If a feat or archetype rules that "Instead of being a mid BAB class, you're a full BAB class." ...you would skip what the table says and opt for the new ruling.
Animals have 3/4 BAB; Magical Beasts have full BAB. (And Magical Beasts have d10 HD and Darkvision, on top of what the Animal subtype would normally provide)
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Look, I don't disagree with your principle, just pointing out a few holes in the arguments people are making.
Your claim was you couldn't buff a celestrial pet 'at all' which is wrong. With long duration spells like Barkskin you might be buffing way before combat. Much like the claim that all Eidolons are large with two strength evolutions it's just wrong.
Eidolons are stronger, just argue it properly.
Not to be mean here, but learn to read. I never said, anywhere, that you couldn't buff the pet at all, just that it burns so many actions per spell that it isn't even worth it. The druid having to ready an action to cast and use their move to command the AC to lower its SR, and then the AC having to spend a Standard action to lower it, is a huge burn on action economy that makes buffing infeasible, especially if the buffing is going to happen in combat.
It would also be nice to know conclusively if the change to magical beast actually has all of the changes some posters believe it should (HD, BAB, etc.).The thing is, even if it does, that just helps to put the AC on the same advancement progression the Eidolon was on to begin with.
Look, I don't disagree with your principle, just pointing out a few holes in the arguments people are making.
Your claim was you couldn't buff a celestrial pet 'at all' which is wrong. With long duration spells like Barkskin you might be buffing way before combat. Much like the claim that all Eidolons are large with two strength evolutions it's just wrong.
Eidolons are stronger, just argue it properly.
Not to be mean here, but learn to read. I never said, anywhere, that you couldn't buff the pet at all, just that it burns so many actions per spell that it isn't even worth it. The druid having to ready an action to cast and use their move to command the AC to lower its SR, and then the AC having to spend a Standard action to lower it, is a huge burn on action economy that makes buffing infeasible, especially if the buffing is going to happen in combat.
It would also be nice to know conclusively if the change to magical beast actually has all of the changes some posters believe it should (HD, BAB, etc.).
The thing is, even if it does, that just helps to put the AC on the same advancement progression the Eidolon was on to begin with.
I'm sorry, but what spell resistance?
Every time I've seen an animal companion's statblock in an adventure, it's been listed as CR -.
- plus anything is still -, so an animal companion whose master has the Celestial Servant feat would have SR -.
Then why are companions always listed as CR -?
(I don't want to go too off-topic here. Maybe a new thread?)
So, you're saying that if a level 5 druid (CR 4) has an animal companion, that companion is also CR 4, but the companion is ignored when calculating the CR of an encounter?
Is that stated in the rules anywhere?