Celestial Servant.....Eidlons just got hosed


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Poit wrote:

So, you're saying that if a level 5 druid (CR 4) has an animal companion, that companion is also CR 4, but the companion is ignored when calculating the CR of an encounter?

Is that stated in the rules anywhere?

The companion is part of the CR of the druid. I hasn't a separate CR as it is a feature of the druid class.

Like a summoned monster don't have a CR (at least for encounter building).


Cheapy wrote:


There's also a fair amount of precedence for 'every companion but Eidolon'. For example, the Boon Companion feat.

Pretty sure that feat predates the class...


Poit wrote:
So, you're saying that if a level 5 druid (CR 4) has an animal companion, that companion is also CR 4, but the companion is ignored when calculating the CR of an encounter?

No, the combined Druid + Animal Companion CR is 4 because the CR of the Druid includes the animal companion class feature.

A wizard and his spells don't have separate CRs, why should a Druid and his class feature?


mplindustries wrote:
A wizard and his spells don't have separate CRs, why should a Druid and his class feature?

He is not a class feature. He is a friend :p


Ssalarn wrote:
Not to be mean here, but learn to read. I never said, anywhere, that you couldn't buff the pet at all

But you said...

Ssalarn wrote:
it actually becomes impossible to buff your animal companion without the Spell Resistance interfering, because SR automatically resets at the beginning of the creature's next turn.

(emphasis mine)

Which I countered that you can - you just need to ready an action. You then proceed to make a different claim, which is that it takes alot of actions and generally makes ones life difficult. I agree with that part by the way. I took issue when you said it was impossible.

So I think I can read just fine.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

The companion is part of the CR of the druid. I hasn't a separate CR as it is a feature of the druid class.

Like a summoned monster don't have a CR (at least for encounter building).
mplindustries wrote:

No, the combined Druid + Animal Companion CR is 4 because the CR of the Druid includes the animal companion class feature.

A wizard and his spells don't have separate CRs, why should a Druid and his class feature?

Then does the companion have no CR, or does the companion count as part of the druid's CR? If the latter, how much of the druid's CR?


Poit wrote:
Then does the companion have no CR, or does the companion count as part of the druid's CR? If the latter, how much of the druid's CR?

It counts as part of the druids CR. How much? None of it and all of it. How much of a Wizards CR is his spells class feature? It cannot be taken separately. Though if you want to calculate a CR for a druidless animal companion then I suppose you could look at Monster Creation to get a ballpark figure.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Hawktitan wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Not to be mean here, but learn to read. I never said, anywhere, that you couldn't buff the pet at all

But you said...

Ssalarn wrote:
it actually becomes impossible to buff your animal companion without the Spell Resistance interfering, because SR automatically resets at the beginning of the creature's next turn.

(emphasis mine)

Which I countered that you can - you just need to ready an action. You then proceed to make a different claim, which is that it takes alot of actions and generally makes ones life difficult. I agree with that part by the way. I took issue when you said it was impossible.

So I think I can read just fine.

It is impossible to do without the spell resistance interfering. I would consider having to waste an entire turn and changing your place in the initiative order to cast one spell interference.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Avianfoo wrote:
Poit wrote:
Then does the companion have no CR, or does the companion count as part of the druid's CR? If the latter, how much of the druid's CR?
It counts as part of the druids CR. How much? None of it and all of it. How much of a Wizards CR is his spells class feature? It cannot be taken separately. Though if you want to calculate a CR for a druidless animal companion then I suppose you could look at Monster Creation to get a ballpark figure.

None of it and all of it? So the companion in the example is both CR 4 and CR - at the same time? Does that mean the animal companion has both SR 9 and SR -?

It seems much easier to just use the interpretation used in printed adventures: that companions are just CR -.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Poit wrote:
Avianfoo wrote:
Poit wrote:
Then does the companion have no CR, or does the companion count as part of the druid's CR? If the latter, how much of the druid's CR?
It counts as part of the druids CR. How much? None of it and all of it. How much of a Wizards CR is his spells class feature? It cannot be taken separately. Though if you want to calculate a CR for a druidless animal companion then I suppose you could look at Monster Creation to get a ballpark figure.

None of it and all of it? So the companion in the example is both CR 4 and CR - at the same time? Does that mean the animal companion has both SR 9 and SR -?

It seems much easier to just use the interpretation used in printed adventures: that companions are just CR -.

One thing that might indicate that this is the intended way of reading it would be to look at the paladin's Divine Bond mount option, another companion that gains the celestial template. There, there is some extra wording clarifying that the mount is only a magical beast for what spell's affect it (text that would have been helpful in the feat. Maybe removed to conserve word count?) and a note that the mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin's level +11 at 15th level. That could be seen to imply that the mount did not have Spell Resistance prior to that point, meaning that the mount was being calculated as though it had a CR of -. Of course it could also be read to mean the mount's gaining better SR from a different source. It's very strange, since all other abilities reference hit die, and then the Spell Resistance references CR.... Would have avoided confusion later if they'd just used hit die for all abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

*dragging this back on topic* :)

I like to look at this as more of a positive change. Instead of "Eidolons just got hosed" since this a beneficial effect, I prefer to say "Animal Companions just got buffed."

Or more accurately, Animal Companion owners have an additional option to choose to buff their companion.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Rerednaw wrote:

*dragging this back on topic* :)

I like to look at this as more of a positive change. Instead of "Eidolons just got hosed" since this a beneficial effect, I prefer to say "Animal Companions just got buffed."

Or more accurately, Animal Companion owners have an additional option to choose to buff their companion.

The question is, is it really a buff, and how much of a buff is it?

Regardless, I think it either improves Animal Companions or is about a 0 benfeit gain, changing them but not necessarily making them truly better.


Am I missing something with regards the "smart kitty" issue? I just don't see how it applies to Celestial Servant. Again, as this feat doesn't just allow your animal companion to become smart or even just add a template to it (which would still leave it an animal subject to the limitations of being an animal), but rather outright changes its type and thus removes the limitations inherent to the previous type (i.e. that of being merely an animal), why would buffing its intelligence not override the normal trick rules.

Not to be too silly... but a horse is a horse, of course, of course, unless of course that horse is a magical beast.

Again, if I've missed someone clarifying this, I apologize.

Liberty's Edge

tomorrow, I think you are absolutely right. It becomes a magical beast and trick issues go away.

Wow this really kept going without me, work got busy for a week or so.

So anyway i ran the numbers on this, again, and looked through examples given by other folks.

I still find that Kitty +feat outdoes Eidolon, until about 7th level. At that point the ability to gain the Large evolution takes over and the Eidolon will kill the kitty despite the damage reduction. Before that no matter how many time i ran the probability sim the innate DR was too much to overcome. So, playing at 3rd level, yes the kitty was better than my (non optimal) Eidolon, but that will change over time.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

neferphras wrote:

tomorrow, I think you are absolutely right. It becomes a magical beast and trick issues go away.

Wow this really kept going without me, work got busy for a week or so.

So anyway i ran the numbers on this, again, and looked through examples given by other folks.

I still find that Kitty +feat outdoes Eidolon, until about 7th level. At that point the ability to gain the Large evolution takes over and the Eidolon will kill the kitty despite the damage reduction. Before that no matter how many time i ran the probability sim the innate DR was too much to overcome. So, playing at 3rd level, yes the kitty was better than my (non optimal) Eidolon, but that will change over time.

As has been pointed out many times, you probability sim pitting the kitty and eidolon against each other in some kind of grueling pit fight completely ignores the reality of what each character is bringing to the party. It still takes an entire round worth of actions for both the druid and pet to cast a single buff spell on the kitty, the eidolon still has more and better skill capabilities, earlier access to pounce, etc. etc.

The summoner can cast Enlarge Person on his Eidolon right out the gate, giving him the benefits of large size from level one, and the DR of the kitty just helps mitigate the fact that he can't receive any healing without burning an entire turn of both his and his druid's actions. Meanwhile the summoner can just cast rejuvenate eidolon on his critter (better than cure light wounds for the eidolon, btw) in the same round his eidolon full attacks.

Maximum possible contribution from eidolon > maximum possible contribution from kitty.

Liberty's Edge

the enlarge spell is no where near the enlarge evolution in effectiveness. and i did account for that in the sim. The enlarge evolution at 8th level was the game clincher for the eidolon. and cure light wounds works on the kitty just fine. Its any living creature.

The DR of the kitty completely negates the benefit of a normal enlarge spell with room to spare. Consider it make the Eidoln easier to hit, which did not help, without a benefit to hit. You effectively get 1 up on damage die and +1 damage. DR/5 or 10 easily negates that. Now the evolution is a +8 strength, new ball game.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

neferphras wrote:
the enlarge spell is no where near the enlarge evolution in effectiveness. and i did account for that in the sim. The enlarge evolution at 8th level was the game clincher for the eidolon.

Everyone else here has shown time and again, and laid out the math, showing exactly how wrong you are that this in some way makes the animal companion better than the eidolon at any level. Meanwhile, you reference a supposed sim that supposedly contradicts the proven math of half a dozen veteran players without laying it all out. Not a good way to make your point.

Enlarge person allows the Eidolon to be large sized gaining all appropriate bonuses out the gate, allowing him to charge and pounce as a large sized critter at round 1 level 1. The kitty and the druid cannot simulate this effect, and take an entire round with niether of them able to attack just to cast a crappy Magic Fang spell. In round 2 the Summoner can either a) make an attack himself in addition to his eidolon (b cast a further buff spell like shield or mage armor on either himself or his eidolon or c) use Grease or Daze Monster to help disable an opponent. The druid and cat can now attack if they want to, though the eidolon's large size and ability to Pounce mean he's still well ahead on damage.
Round 3 the cat may have a chance to pull ahead since he might not need healing because of his DR.. but that doesn't kick in until 5th level. So Summoner casts Rejuvenate Eidolon, druid and AC burn an entire round of action doing nothing but casting an inferior Cure Light Wounds on the kitty.

There is no point where the Animal Companion and Druid matches the potential of the Summoner and Eidolon. Even during that brief period around 5th and 6th level where the AC has damage reduction and the Eidolon doesn't, the ease of healing for the eidolon easily compensates.

Liberty's Edge

humm, i am pretty sure i said this was with my non optimal Eidolon, I dont have pounce. its a biped. Took into account the enlarge, and druid buff spells, going side by side up through 7th level with the BIPED Eidoln.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

neferphras wrote:
humm, i am pretty sure i said this was with my non optimal Eidolon, I dont have pounce. its a biped. Took into account the enlarge, and druid buff spells, going side by side up through 7th level with the BIPED Eidoln.

Then you should be comparing him to a druid with a Celestial Ape animal companion, not one with the kitty. Your blanket statement of " All Animal Comapnions are now better than all Eidolons" is incorrect.

Big cat = best druid AC for combat
Biped Eidolon = mediocre combat choice for Eidolons
Quadraped Eidolon = best combat choice for Eidolons

Compare apples to apples. When you compare your Biped Eidolon to an Ape animal companion, or one of the similarly "classed" AC's, you'll see that the math swings back around in your favor.

Liberty's Edge

neferphras wrote:
humm, i am pretty sure i said this was with my non optimal Eidolon, I dont have pounce. its a biped. Took into account the enlarge, and druid buff spells, going side by side up through 7th level with the BIPED Eidoln.

So you made a thread to complain that good animal companions are better than bad eidolons? I totally understand why you would do that. Really. . .


Actually the statement that the AC needs to lower its spell resistance to be cured is wrong. Cure spells bypass spell resistance as long as they don't harm the recipient.
From the PRD:

Cure Light Wounds wrote:

School conjuration (healing); Level bard 1, cleric 1, druid 1, paladin 1, ranger 2

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range touch

Target creature touched

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw Will half (harmless); see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless); see text

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

So unless your AC is undead cure spells can heal it without problems, no problem for the druid. Also very useful for monks and others with spell resistance.

I think that the cure spells are pretty much the only spell resistance spells that allow that.

I still think that an eidolon is much better, though :-)

Liberty's Edge

I was conceding that, maybe i was not clear. When i take the non optimal eidolon, with claws sword ect against the very optimal kitty, it still wins after 7th level. So it still wins, what i was seeing was an effect of that feat being greatly over powered at early levels, as time goes on the eidolon wins. If you go optimal after 3rd level, when you have enough points for extra claws hands and pounce, i am sure the eidoln would either draw or win. But thats not what i was running through the sim. I can adjust the algorithms and run that if you want.


neferphras wrote:
I was conceding that, maybe i was not clear. When i take the non optimal eidolon, with claws sword ect against the very optimal kitty, it still wins after 7th level. So it still wins, what i was seeing was an effect of that feat being greatly over powered at early levels, as time goes on the eidolon wins. If you go optimal after 3rd level, when you have enough points for extra claws hands and pounce, i am sure the eidoln would either draw or win. But thats not what i was running through the sim. I can adjust the algorithms and run that if you want.

Understood :-)

I just wanted to bring the special spell resistance restriction on cure spells; I think not many are aware of it.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

neferphras wrote:
I was conceding that, maybe i was not clear. When i take the non optimal eidolon, with claws sword ect against the very optimal kitty, it still wins after 7th level. So it still wins, what i was seeing was an effect of that feat being greatly over powered at early levels, as time goes on the eidolon wins. If you go optimal after 3rd level, when you have enough points for extra claws hands and pounce, i am sure the eidoln would either draw or win. But thats not what i was running through the sim. I can adjust the algorithms and run that if you want.

In your very first post you stated "An animal companion with that feat would own the equivalent Eidolon."

Which has been proven to not be true, even with Sangalor's clarification. Will a big cat animal companion own your biped Eidolon? Yes. Does that mean all animal companions with that feat will own an equivalent eidolon? Not even a little.


Ssalarn wrote:
neferphras wrote:
I was conceding that, maybe i was not clear. When i take the non optimal eidolon, with claws sword ect against the very optimal kitty, it still wins after 7th level. So it still wins, what i was seeing was an effect of that feat being greatly over powered at early levels, as time goes on the eidolon wins. If you go optimal after 3rd level, when you have enough points for extra claws hands and pounce, i am sure the eidoln would either draw or win. But thats not what i was running through the sim. I can adjust the algorithms and run that if you want.

In your very first post you stated "An animal companion with that feat would own the equivalent Eidolon."

Which has been proven to not be true, even with Sangalor's clarification. Will a big cat animal companion own your biped Eidolon? Yes. Does that mean all animal companions with that feat will own an equivalent eidolon? Not even a little.

I agree.

But with a biped eidolon you at least have the option to send it to dance or do karaoke so your character doesn't have to do that ;-)
Try that with a kitty.

Also your kitty will likely scare people in a normal viallage/town a lot more than a biped eidolon (depending on what you made it look like and what kind of clothes/wrappings you put on it) :-P

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Sangalor wrote:
neferphras wrote:
I was conceding that, maybe i was not clear. When i take the non optimal eidolon, with claws sword ect against the very optimal kitty, it still wins after 7th level. So it still wins, what i was seeing was an effect of that feat being greatly over powered at early levels, as time goes on the eidolon wins. If you go optimal after 3rd level, when you have enough points for extra claws hands and pounce, i am sure the eidoln would either draw or win. But thats not what i was running through the sim. I can adjust the algorithms and run that if you want.

Understood :-)

I just wanted to bring the special spell resistance restriction on cure spells; I think not many are aware of it.

I just re-looked this up:

The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by such spells without forcing the caster to make a caster level check.


The description specifies it further.
The interpretation in my groups is as I stated, but maybe that is worth its own FAQ...

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