So this weekend I am playing in ALL of the thornkeep modules back to back. So I was thinking of making a new character.
I would like to make either a barbarian or a fighter(type) character, as I already have A wizard and a ninja I would like someone who can take some damage and keep on kicking.
I am having some trouble deciding between the two classes.
If I pick fighter I plan on going Super tank using the Brawler archtype and TWF Shield slams / Spiked Fists. This build would have a high AC but low mobility and very little "special" stuff to do, basically would be get into melee range and attack....and that's it for everything.
I am really not sure what to do at ALL with a barbarian, but I found a really cool mini I want to use and it just screams barbarian. The drawbacks of a barbarian being I would be a very VERY easy to hit sponge, and because of averaged HP I really wouldn't have the HP to fill that role (I think).
I guess i'm really asking if either of these two classes can really survive/shine in PFS. Everyone has gish magic builds but I hardly see straight fighters or barbarians.
Any thoughts?
A flowing monk/unarmed fighter can give you a crazy AC.
Buy a wand of mage armor to ding him with.
Gettign crane wing your second level to deflect one attack that happens to hit you a turn. Great saves. Speck him to trip and set up your buddies to drop everythign when it stands up.
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If your looking for a class that will shine in Thornkeep.
Paladin, or Bard. My top suggestions.
If your asking fighter, or barbarian. Both are good at the same job. Fighter will pull ahead in static damage over the barbarian.
Having a good AC is important. Not as important as having good damage.
The group I'm running though is on the last two parts. You have to have a extra module in there, or you can start at level 2. To cover all 5 parts due to the fact the highest is level t6-8. .
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I'm playing in Thornkeep now and second what Calagnar said, bard and pally are solid choices for it. Pally (what I'm playing in it) will give you decent damage and survivability.
If you're set on either fighter or barb, I'd go with barb. You have the ability to be more useful out of combat. And if you're worried about having the HP to be a sponge, you'll be fine. You also could take the invulnerable rager archetype for DR.
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A friend turned me on to a pretty great Barbarian set up.
Invulnerable Rager and Drunken Brute archetypes combined with significant Constitution and Strength. I'll let you do your own reading to appreciate it but here's some tips if you explore that Barbarian combination.
1) Half-Orcs or Humans are good to start, you want to get Stalwart as early as possible to maximize your DR. Buy Acrobatics to further benefit from the feat.
2) Your low AC can be compensated for in many ways using equipment and/or rage powers. For instance: you can buy a Wand of Shield for prestige points and a particular damaged ioun stone. Then ask your friend to help charge the ioun stone if they have UMD or preferably Shield is on their spell list. You cast Shield of out the ioun stone as an action and voila!
3) Your Hit Points will be fine. If your race can have Barbarian as a favored class and you shell out the build points for a high Con (18 after all adjustments?) You can start play with: 12 + 4 + 1 or 17 hp. You add 7 + 4 + 1 per level after that for an additional 12. You can see where that's going... Also, since you have to get Diehard to get to Stalwart, you can stay standing up to negative your CON in HP, so that's essentially 18 extra, more when raging.
4) Explore options for your crummy saves. Rage Powers help here, but weigh the trade offs carefully. There are some good Traits to buy and if you could spare them (you can't) Feats, too.
5) Be choosy on your skills. You do not get many points and you will not get bonuses to most of the ones available. I like Intimidate, Acrobatics, Perception, and something...
Hope that gives you some ideas on fooling around with a Barbarian. The forums are full of some outrageous builds and cross builds if you want to do more damage instead take an incredible beating.
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Weapon Training is leveled out by Rage. By L20, both characters are receiving +4 to weapon damage from class features. In the Barbarian's case, that +4(Mighty Rage) can be applied to every melee weapon and becomes a +6 if it is a two-handed weapon. In the Fighter's case it can be applied to ranged weapons which is hard to get elsewhere.
Human Barbarian 6
Str 18 (+2)=20
Dex 14
Con 15
Int 7
Wis 9
Cha 7
Level 1: Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality/Tribal Scars/Toughness (Can't Decide)
Level 2: DR1/-, Reckless Abandon
Level 3: Extreme Endurance, Intimidating Prowess/Raging Vitality/Toughness
Level 4: DR2/-, Rage Power: Superstition, +1 CON
Level 5: Extra Rage Power: Strength Surge
Level 6: DR3/-, Cold/or Fire Resist 1, Witch Hunter
So these stats are VERY specialized but that's what barbarians are all about. I could drop STR by 1 point and bring my Int and Wis back up which I may do, or I could drop my idea of a CAGM(Come And Get Me) build and lower my dex
Class Arch types
Invulnerable Rager seems to look like it would work the best, gets rid of some OK features and gives me some DR which I would get ALOT of mileage out of because of how often I will be hit (On a side not DR - means there is no way to bypass?)
Drunken Brute seems pretty interesting, losing out on the movement hurts but gaining rage rounds sounds good (although with a high con I probably won't need them). And I have a question about how the Drink ability works, it says May drink a potion or alcoholic drink as a move action that DOES NOT provoke, does this include retrieving the item from a belt/haversack/dead body/wherever?
Mounted Rager would be fun to make cavaliers cry at the absurd strength of my mount, Plus Rage Trample!
Traits
I think the Auspicious tattoo trait is awesome for a barbarian, I was planning on taking Tribal Scars so they would go well together for a background to the character. Anything that adds a skill would be nice, as PFS has ALOT to do outside of combat even one more class skill could really make sessions more fun. Any trait that adds to CMD/CMB for grapple or sunder would fit the character idea as well.
Feats
So this is where things get hairy, I was thinking of sliding in some fighter levels but as people have pointed out to get more than just feats out of it I would need to take at least 3 (Two handed fighter) or 1 (Unbreakable - gives die hard+endurance) but with the latter I would lose out on the bonus feat
First level Tribal Scars/Toughness/Raging Vitality, all are really good IMO Raging Vitality obviously being the best for raging HP. I am a sponge so I need to be very.....spongy
For third level I can't decide if I want to take the character in a ROLE-play direction or keep ROLL-play going, I think Int Prowess could cover both Role-play and Roll-play later with Corungun Smash
For fifth the extra rage power is nice but I could replace it with another feat without losing much IMO
Skills
Acrobatics, Climb, Knowledge Nature, Perception, Intimidate (Maybe something extra from a trait?)
Rage Powers
Reckless Abandon so that I never have to worry about missing with Power Attack, screw AC at this point
Superstition for Great saves plus some Role-play (I need the Golarion equivalent of Krom for whenever I have to make a saving throw)
Strength Surge if I take it makes Grapple/Sunder much more likely, and keeps dice from embarrassing you when you try to lift that heavy thing
Witch Hunter looks like it will just be free extra damage on most BBEG past level 6, and if they happen to be a non caster humanoid they better have a ton of HP
I was also taking a look at the Beast totem rage tree, free claw attacks, NAC, and Pounce are all cool looking things.
I'm starting to get excited about playing the character, it will be fun either way (Death or Glory!)
Any thoughts on this build so far?
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Atarlost, there's plenty of reason to go for Raging Vitality. SBDS, as you call it, is due to barbs falling unconscious, falling out of rage and losing a lot of HP which puts them at negative CON. Raging Vitality let's you keep raging when you go negative so you don't have to worry about dying suddenly.
Quick example. Two lvl 9 barbs, everything is the same except one has RV. They both get hit and drop to -1. The barb w/o RV suddenly loses 18 hit points and probably dies unless he's got a 20 con. The other barb is still alive thanks to RV. Raging Vitality might not be as important to take early on, but it's almost needed at higher levels.
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@Chris Wasson
Drinking allows you to get a potion out and drink it without provoking an AoO, or a maybe just a beer, or anything else you could drink as a standard action.
--DR and the Invulnerable Rager--
DR/- means Physical damage is reduced and nothing overcomes your DR. Damage from magical sources is not reduced. There are a lot of threads about DR so you can find most any specific answer with a search.
Here are some quick...
Hit for 1d6 + 3d6 Sneak Attack + 4. => You reduce 3 damage
Hit by a weapon that does X additional (magical)energy damage => You reduce the weapon damage by 3 and take full effect from the X additional.
Hit by a longsword +3 => You reduce 3 damage.
Hit by Burning Hands spell => You take full damage
Eventually your DR will be amazing. If you invest a little into it amazing. At level 6 you are in a delicate situation: 3rd level spells are on the table, melee enemies start having multiple attacks...
You need to be cautious.
You will still get hit; a lot if you're doing your job correctly. You cannot afford to completely eschew your AC. Having high hitpoints and damage reduction supplement your survivability, but at level 6 they do not guarantee it. If you get Stalwart to increase your DR, then at Level 6 you can situationally get it as high as DR8/+1AC, but more likely just DR5 which is respectable. Statistical average on a d8 is 4.5 and 3.5 on a d6 which means you shrug off small arms fire.
If you do not want to build defensively to maximize your DR then don't rely on it over AC. If you have a dedicated healer this is less serious business, but few players will know they are sitting down with a healer at the table.
--Rage Powers--
Instead of Witch Hunter look at Elemental Rage: +1d6 to attacks of an energy type you select when you rage. Beast Totem for the AC bonus is good, there are others that add to both AC bonus and Reflex save, which is handy. Especially since Deflection bonuses add to your CMD, less chance to be maneuvered. Good For What Ails You is a great one, you receive a saving throw versus things that suck for drinking. Including poison. That's right, kill the spider venom with a little more booze!
--Feats--
If you choose to get Toughness, get it at level 1. Tribal Scars can be acquired anytime.
There is a Feat that lets you add your Con bonus to damage rolls (1.5 if using two-handed).
--Traits/Skills--
Some traits add to damage if you get a morale bonus to hit, Cayden Cailean gives one that provides a +2 to mind affecting effects after drinking. If you are not going to have a healer, I'd consider the trait which provides UMD as a skill and take that skill so you can use healing items on yourself.
@ErrantPursuit
The drinking would be a really good option but potions are so expensive i'm not sure I could reliably do it.
for DR what about the dragon totem resistance rage power? does its DR stack with Invuln rager?
Also what feat are you talking about that adds Con bonus to damage? that would be absolutely fantastic and probably not PFS legal due to Raging Vitality (+6 to con when raging)
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Here it is:
Raging Brutality
Source: Ultimate CombatYou expend some of your rage to strike your opponents with a more powerful weapon blow.
Prerequisites: Str 13, rage class feature, Power Attack, base attack bonus +12.
Benefit: While raging and using Power Attack, you can spend 3 additional rounds of your rage as a swift action to add your Constitution bonus on damage rolls for melee attacks or thrown weapon attacks you make on your turn. If you are using the weapon two-handed, instead add 1-1/2 times your Constitution bonus. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
You won't be getting it for a while, I forgot you needed +12 BAB. It's one of the reasons that Drunken Brute works so well. You conserve several rounds of rage by getting...uh...pissed, instead...
I didn't prefer Dragon Totem. I felt it left plenty of emphasis on exactly one damage type for a lot of expenditure of feats. Since you can only choose one Totem line to buy powers from it didn't make my cut.
Hive Totem is worth a look for the stability and the the ZOMG bite advantage...
Spirit Totem is also a strong choice. Concealment, Slam Attack, AoE Damage.
Celestial Totem deserves an honorable mention because of Invisibility Purge and Spell Resistance.
As to the Damage Reduction and Dragon Totem Energy Resistance, it is badly worded. Yes, you can get double your Invulnerable Rager archetype's DR to your Energy Resistance.
Damage Reduction is not used when you get hit by an energy attack. Energy(Cold/Fire/Acid/etc...) Resistance is used and it applies to magical and normal sources of energy damage. You get to pad out some of this with your archetype. If you're looking for more, then the Dragon Totem line provides a great choice, though I'd suggest comparing it to Elemental Resistance which can eventually let you absorb an energy attack once per rage and turn the damage into temporary HP and send another one back at your opponent. (Energy Absorption and Energy Eruption).
If you're not sure about healers sitting at your table think about Renewed Vigor and Regenerative Vigor.
Many of the Rage Powers you can use that cause opponents to make a save or involve durations run off your Con modifier, which is why I suggest a high starting Constitution. You can always put your items and advancement points into Strength to get your damage up.
