|
Armor expert + mitrhal breastplate = No penalty.
The maneuver master dip is worth it, it give you flurry of maneuvers and better saves, Altough the dip is not necesary an single classed maneuver masters are good enough.
The armor still need feat - it's a medium one
You wrote that " MM single class are good enough" ain't the lore warden a lot better ?
Better DPR when maneuver are no good, best cmb I the game etc1) No, with a mitrhal breastplate and armor expert trait you have zero armor check penalty, therefore you do not suffer any penalty from non having the medium armor feat.
2)Sorry, I write that in a hurry, I mean a lore warden is good enough without multiclassing but the dip is also viable. So you would not hurt you character either way.
I believe this is incorrect since you dont have the medium armor proficiency you suffer the -4 non-proficient penalty.
I could be wrong....where does it say if you get the armor check penalty to zero you dont get the non-proficient penalty?
Edit:
Armor Proficiency, Light (Combat)
You are skilled at wearing light armors.
Benefit: When you wear light armor, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.
Normal: A character who is wearing armor with which he is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving.
Armor Proficiency, Medium (Combat)
You are skilled at wearing medium armor.
Prerequisite: Light Armor Proficiency.
Benefit: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Normal: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Jacob, mithril armor has armor penalty reduced by 3. Armor mastery reeduce it by 1. total -4. 4-4 = 0. So for not being proficient you suffer a whopping -0 to your d20 rolls.
I'm glad I found this thread; I'm really trying to understand the Lore Warden. I love the idea but am having a hard time making it work. I'm not looking for a full build but those of you that have played one for a stretch, any success stories? Does reach weapon cover the AC/maneuverability gap? Does Dodge+Mobility help cover lack of acrobatics? I guess there's a trait somewhere that makes acrobatics a class skill.
I'm having a hard time reconciling the hit to armor proficiency and no acrobatics class skill. I *love* the idea of a fighter fighting smart but find it ironic that the Duelist prestige class, which allows Int bonus to damage (Yay!) requires acrobatics (and perform!?), neither of which are class skills. Perform, I can see but acrobatics!? Clearly not geared for a fighter - pity. Any other ways to make that Int bonus work more in line with the Lore Warden?
Thanks in advance!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Being class skills does not prevent you from learning them they also become class skills ehrn you obtain the prc.
|
I'm working on a Dwarven Lore Warden Fighter for PFS (although, probably won't be playing it for quite a while).
How do I solve the low AC because I'm only proficient with light armor? Simple. I'm going to take 1 level of Cavalier (with the Gendarme Archetype). I get proficiency with Medium and Heavy armours, as well as proficient with all shields (excluding Tower Shields), plus Power Attack as a bonus feat. And since PFS caps at 12th, it's not like I'm losing much (except delaying abilities by a level).
And since a Cavalier gets Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills, been thinking about taking Student of Philosophy as a character trait (to use INT instead of CHA for the most important aspects of Bluff and Diplomacy, since Lore Wardens benefit by having a higher INT).
Come to think of it, a 1 level dip of Gendarme Cavalier with Student of Philosophy is not a bad investment for melee PFS characters who dump Charisma...
Fun build:
Dex-based Lore Warden dipping MM.
Specialize on Dirty Trick and Trip, take Crane-Style feats and of course - dervish dance. You may have to add agile maneuvers as you probably need it dor dirty trick - I dont think DT works with weapon finesse.
But what you get is a really, really cool tank. Get as much wis as possible and you will have great AC without armor, high CMB and you will be able to effectivly make use of dirty tricks which is awesome. You can deflect one strike per turn and have good saves. Your damage will be kinda okay, nothing special but adding in the ability to blind your foe right before fullattacking is just great and makes up for some DPR.
I played this character for quite a while and it was a great mix of tankyness, controll and some dps.
like any melee build, this is somewhat stat/point buy dependent, but I love a 2 level MM dip.
i played one up to LW 4/MM 2- he wore a Mithril Breastplate (only +1 Wis), and had good Str and Dex; fought with a Guisarme and combat reflexes (plus power attack and imp trip). he was brutally effective with a nice blend of damage and control (though i know trip's effectiveness drops off at higher levels when a lot more things can fly).
Thanks for the advice, everyone. I did manage to play a lore warden for the first time recently and I very much enjoyed it. I don't believe I'll dip into any other classes this first time around.
Mithril medium armor costs 4000 gp. I'm not waiting that long in PFS. I took medium armor proficiency.
The major benefit you get from the Lore Warden is a bonus directly to cmb and cmd which makes it easier to perform and resist combat maneuvers. Plus combat expertise for free.
I look forward to both of those. Actually just leveled up to 2 so that Combat Expertise is there. Next level will be the also sweet CMB/CMD boost. In the meantime what I really enjoyed? A fighter with 9(!) skill points per level. Man, was that refreshing!
I would really undo armor proficiency - can you tell us more about how you built it?
And dipping Maneuver Master really is a great thing, almost without any disadvantages, I really recommand it and it gives a lot of versitality.
|
|
I went a little different route then most when I played my Lore Warden/Rogue in a home game.
I went for bluff and UMD (lead blades and enlarge is kool).
This character was playing in a Savage Tide PF game.
Talon
Male human Fighter Lore Warden 9 / Rogue 3 (CRB 55 and Pathfinder Society Field Guide 31, CRB 67)
Medium humanoid (human) NG
Init +3; Senses Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+10 armor, +2 Deflection, +3 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 Natural)
hp 106 (9d10+3d8+33)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +9, +2 vs Fear
Defensive Abilities Bravery +2, Evasion
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +3 Adamantine Halberd +22/+17/+12 (1d10+12/x3) Power Attack +19/+14/+9 (1d10+21/x3)
Ranged +1 Darkwood Adaptive Composite Longbow (1d8+7/×3)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +2d6, Weapon Training (Polearms +2, Bows +1)
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +11; CMB +20 (+4 trip, +2 reposition); CMD 36 (+4 trip, +2 reposition)
Feats: Additional Traits (Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith), Combat Expertise, Combat Feint (Improve Feint, Greater Feint), Combat Reflexes, Combat Reposition (Improved Reposition), Combat Trip (Improved Trip, Greater Trip), Dodge, Fast Learner, Felling Smash, Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Halberd)
Skills: Acrobatics +18 (+23 Boots), Appraise +7, Bluff +18 (+23 Mask), Climb +9, Craft (alchemy) +7, Disable Device +15, Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +13, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (Engineering) +7, Knowledge (Geography) +7, Knowledge (History) +7, Knowledge (Local) +12, Knowledge (Nature) +12, Knowledge (Nobility) +7, Knowledge (Planes) +13, Knowledge (Religion) +13, Linguistics +7, Perception +16, Ride +7, Stealth +11, Survival +5, Swim +9, Use Magical Device +18
Traits: Armor Expert, Dangerously Curious, Fast-Talker, Indomitable Faith
Languages: Common, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
SQ: Expertise, Know Thy Enemy, Maneuver Mastery, Rogue Talent (Combat Trick), Scholastic, Trapfinding +1
Combat Gear: Potion Cure Serious Wounds (2), Potion Fly, Potion Enlarge person, Wand Shield, Wand Gravity Bow, Wand Lead Blades; Other Gear +4 Mithral Breast Plate, +3 Adamantine Halberd, +1 Darkwood Adaptive Long Composite Bow, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Wayfinder (slotted Clear Spindle Ioun Stone), Handy Haversack, Efficient Quiver (Arrows-Normal 20, Silver 10, Cold Iron 10, Adamantine Blanch 10, Ghost Salt Blanch 10), Want Cure Light Wounds, Traveler’s Any-Tool, Belt Physical Perfection +2, Headband Mental Prowess +2 (Int/Wis), Mask of Stony Demeanor, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance +3
If you could undo that, Mithral shirt is a mere 1100.
I would really undo armor proficiency - can you tell us more about how you built it?
It's for PFS. He just got his 3rd Chronicle Sheet, so level 2 now. Haven't played it at lvl 2 yet so he can still one-time respec into anything.
Chain shirt, even a mithril one, provides +4 AC. The check penalty is not crippling. 1100 gp is *much* more affordable but still beyond starting character.
Breastplate provides +6 AC and is affordable for a lvl 1 in PFS with 2 GM credit chronicle sheets to start. I still intend to have him engage like a fighter, even if he has more brains than brawn, so I figured that +2 AC would make a difference. And judging by that last scenario, it has. So not looking back on that one.
At level 4, you should be able to afford Elven Chain (5150g, counts as light even for proficiency), and also retrain that feat into something with BAB 4 required.
Precisely. By the time this character can afford the (not bad) suggested work-arounds, he can swap out his feat as per the standard fighter class feature at lvl 4. Wasn't yet specifically aware of the elven chain option, so thanks for that.
@Jacob Saltband: Cool concept - looks like fun. +18 UMD for a fighter must be a blast!
And dipping Maneuver Master really is a great thing, almost without any disadvantages, I really recommand it and it gives a lot of versitality.
I believe you. I don't play PF so often that I have tried every class yet. This is my first "plain" fighter. (Not so plain, obviously, with the Lore Warden archetype but you know what I mean.) So I like to single-class it to get a thorough feel for that class. So no dipping for this PC. Maybe another time. What is Maneuver Master? Is that a monk thing? What is that from? See, I might single-class the Maneuver Master next time.
But single classing MM-Monk is not even close as amazing as a dip for Lore Warden:P
Actually (apart from improving your saves and giving some feats) it allows you to make one additional maneuver everytime you make a full-attack. That maneuver can even be one that usually requires a standard action (like dirty tricks).
|
|
Question.
How does the MM-Monk get the extra Manuever? Is it a flurry full attack? if so doesnt that get minuses from the flurry?
@Uri Meca, I have a PFS 7th lv Lore Warden. Its a pretty cool fighter class but for PFS its very armor light, hard to get it going up with the limited WBL. His AC is only 20 if I cant get the shield spell off from my wand.
...improving your saves...
That's a great point. When building this fighter, I discovered there were absolutely no dump stats for the concept. (I considered Cha but what I'd really, really like, more than a smart fighter, is a smart, charismatic leader type fighter.) I gave him Wis 12 for at least a +1. I figure I'll squeeze in Iron Will at either lvl 2 or 3. I don't think a brainy fighter should be voted Most Likely to Kill His Friends. If anything Lore Warden should get Will as the strong save.
On a tangent, does anyone think the fighter would be unbalanced at two strong saves? Fort + your choice of another? Or just any two to add to the variability.
|
|
Back in 3.5 we always house ruled fighter as fort/reflex good.Which doesn't help at all for a PFS build.
I take you missed Uri Meca's comment "On a tangent, does anyone think the fighter would be unbalanced at two strong saves? Fort + your choice of another? Or just any two to add to the variability."
This is what I was answering.
Yup, thanks for that.
Zahir, my initial advice request was indeed PFS-inspired but that specific tangential query was wide open and correctly interpreted by Jacob.
To follow up on that, Jacob, did anyone at all in your group express that your game was destroyed by allowing the fighter a strong REF save as well? Along the lines of, Waah! Now my wizard suxors! Unbalance much? Though that was 3.5. What about Pathfinder (not Soceity)? Are you satisfied with fighter as is or do/would you still allow the fighter a second strong save?
|
|
Yup, thanks for that.
Zahir, my initial advice request was indeed PFS-inspired but that specific tangential query was wide open and correctly interpreted by Jacob.
To follow up on that, Jacob, did anyone at all in your group express that your game was destroyed by allowing the fighter a strong REF save as well? Along the lines of, Waah! Now my wizard suxors! Unbalance much? Though that was 3.5. What about Pathfinder (not Soceity)? Are you satisfied with fighter as is or do/would you still allow the fighter a second strong save?
My group did not find the fighter with the 2 good saves to be over powered. We had also houseruled skill point minimum of 4 for all classes and sorcerers had eschew materials for free.
We play PF as is and thinks its good enough, but if we decided to give to give the fighter another good save that it would not over balance the game.
|
The armor you're eventually going for with almost any lore warden is Celestial Armor. 22.4 k gold, +9 AC, +8 max dex, -2 acp, Fly (as the spell) once a day.
|
My lore warden in pfs is a tengu lore warden 6, paladin 2. I use a meteor hammer, have mithril full plate, and trip people like its going out of style with my 5 attacks (4 with the 'hammer, 1 with a bite, which is nice to trip with since its damage is not super good).
I have not used him in a while, but I think his stats are about 18 str, 17 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 10 wis, and 12 cha. Feats are likely combat reflexes, power attack, expertise, weapon focus, two weapon fighting, improved trip, greater improved trip, and greater two weapon fighting..Usually I trip from reach and power attack them as they stand, then step in and maul them with both heads of the meteor hammer. He has an int boost headband, and a strength belt also, and gets by with a 25 AC.
|
|
My favorite attack combo against trip-able opponents for my Lore Warden/Rogues was...
Move action greater combat feint, standard action felling smash/swift action greater trip/AoO.
Damage would be 1d10+2d6+18(str/power attack)
If I had the time for enlarge potion or wand of lead blades it would be..
2d8+2d6+19
If I had time for both...
3d8+2d6+19
Nice damage twice in a round, standard attack and AoO.
This doesn't include a magic weapon, only a normal halberd.
|
|
For a lore warden -
Dip one level as monk of maneuver ?
3 level of thug ?
Or both ?
Thug Offer freighted condition + sicken for a big de buff to add the trip and dirty trick.
But is it worth the lose of levels ?
You'd have to look at the benfits from the dip class and then compare them to up coming class features of the Lore Warden, even then its all up to you.
Str +PA probably?
|
|
My favorite attack combo against trip-able opponents for my Lore Warden/Rogues was...
Move action greater combat feint, standard action felling smash/swift action greater trip/AoO.
Damage would be 1d10+2d6+18(str/power attack)If I had the time for enlarge potion or wand of lead blades it would be..
2d8+2d6+19If I had time for both...
3d8+2d6+19Nice damage twice in a round, standard attack and AoO.
This doesn't include a magic weapon, only a normal halberd.
How are you getting +18 to damage with no magic ?
At what level ?
This was based off the character I posted earlier in the thread. The character was 12th.
i made a PFS Lore Warden. fun so far. definitely not a tank though. although she is an elf and has the Elven Curve Blade as her main weapon, it does limit her melee effectiveness. i play her more as a skirmisher. i will get her to lvl 7 for the Lore Warden ability then move to Student of War prestige class for something different- a tough archaeologist.
i'm playing a man master2/lorewarden 5 right now. he's an unbelievable martial debuffer. he trips and dirty tricks at reach with fauchard and has the benefit of imp unarmed and ki throw if the bad guys get too close. the gm now just leaves the tripped bad guys/monsters on the ground at -4 attack/-4 ac instead of provoking for standing. he's also a martial master archetype (combined with lore warden) and he now has martial flexibility which to me is the deal breaker. soooo many combat options on the fly to debuff and control any given combat situation .
p.s. i will eventually trip a dragon...lol then try to run away to proclaim my success.