The Awesomeness of Third Party Publishers, A Must Read Article


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President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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An awesomely written article about how awesome 3rd party publishers are. Link


Excellent article! As I have written and worked for quite a few 3rd party publishers I always try and support them whenever I can. I prefer their material generally over 1st party work most of the time at least in adventure modules.

EN Publishing

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There's an implication there that I don't think is true. Sure, some people will think negatively of anything - if you look you'll find people criticising ice cream, the sun, Paizo, WotC, EN World, sausages, dogs, cats - anything.

We 3PPs do OK. We're not large companies like Paizo or WotC, but small outfits like Kobold Press or EN Publishing or Rite Publishing, or a crapload of projects by the many awesome Seattle folks all do perfectly well. Sure, we won't all be best sellers - that's just statistics - but we do OK for what we do. We have nothing to complain about, and LOTS to be grateful for.

I don't think there's any more "anti-3pp" stigma than there is WotC stigma or cyberpunk stigma or Italian publishers stigma, or any other grouping you can imagine.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Russell Morrissey wrote:
I don't think there's any more "anti-3pp" stigma than there is WotC stigma or cyberpunk stigma or Italian publishers stigma, or any other grouping you can imagine.

Then you and I don't run in the same circles. Last convention I was at, I was getting insulted to my face about how my material was crap (despite winning an award for the book the person was talking about) because paizo didn't produce it. And that was not a one time occurrence. Not even slightly.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Then you and I don't run in the same circles. Last convention I was at, I was getting insulted to my face about how my material was crap (despite winning an award for the book the person was talking about) because paizo didn't produce it. And that was not a one time occurrence. Not even slightly.

I never had that issue. People in general afraid of anything "not official" until you remind them that most the people doing the work for Paizo are the same people doing the work for the 3PP. Then they get that deer in the highlights look when they realize it. Always connect with the customer that is what is most important.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

The specific guy that I'm thinking of was upset that I got him excited about a book until he realized that it can't be used in Pathfinder Society. Almost all of my truly negative reactions have come from people that play Pathfinder Society exclusively.


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
The specific guy that I'm thinking of was upset that I got him excited about a book until he realized that it can't be used in Pathfinder Society. Almost all of my truly negative reactions have come from people that play Pathfinder Society exclusively.

It sounds like your guy was a noun I won't mention here because this is a family-friendly board. I have played in games that were "core-only" or "official" only, usually to get a new player or DM acclimated to the water. The rest of the time I'm having too much fun integrating some new SGG, Raging Swan, LPJ, 0One, Purple Duck or Kobold Press thing into my game to see if it will improve the fun at my table. 3PP rock!

I have found that the fact that the majority of game designers are freelancers, many of whom have their own small press as well, can go a long way toward easing people's fears when talking about quality or playtesting.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think another issue is that people got burned pretty hard in the 3pp glut of 3.0/3.5 era D&D. There was a lot of poor quality, badly balanced and game breaking stuff, because quality varied not just from publisher to publisher but product to product GMs found it easier just to ban "unofficial material".

It became part of the culture for a long time.

Current 3pp are bringing a much higher quality game (for the most part), and I hope people's ideas are changing about 3rd party publishers.


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I've seen a lot of what Dale and Dudemeister have talked about. I recall a recent conversation with someone who was looking for a specific thing and refused to look into a recommended solution because it was put out by a 3pp. It's a mindset I personally can't quite follow - I got into the hobby too late to catch onto the 3.0/3.5 low-quality rush, so I don't have the initial poor impression.

Like Dudemeister, I am really enthused by the high level of quality from most of the 3pp's who do business here on the Paizo store, and hope that it's a sign of better things to come.

Grand Lodge

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I think the quality of 3PP nowadays is doing a lot to combat the bad blood from the old days. I know I have little qualms about non-Paizo stuff in my game once I've had a chance to skim it and know what I'm getting into.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There also is just soooo much 3PP material that a lot of people don't know where to start, and even today there is stuff out there that isn't well balanced or has flavor that doesn't work with some/most games. So I think many DMs feel more comfortable with banning all 3PP than picking and choosing.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

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Honestly, I have to back Dale up here.

I've seen quite a few threads - on these very forums - about psionics. Invariably, our books are mentioned. More often than not, the moment it's discovered they're not " official", they're discounted. Sometimes due to PFS, sometimes not.

I realize other publishers have different experiences, but there is still a strong undercurrent of 3pp = don't use it. While it's not as strong as it may have once been, it's very much still there.


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To help get folks to overcome that mentality (beyond Pathfinder Society, which Owen K.C. Stephens and I have a solution for, but more on that in a momen), I point out that Paizo uses material from the Tome of Horrors Complete, Advanced Bestiary, The Book of Experimental Might. The Book of Fiends, Anger of Angels, just by opening up the back of certain paizo books to the OGL.

I also try to get people to stop with the company focus, you dont' do that with a band you like, nor authors you like, I am not a fan of paramount or Tor Books, I am a fan of creators. I am a fan of Owen K.C. Stephens, Greg Vaughn, Lou Argesta, Tim Hitchcock, Brandon Hodge, (here i am only talking about people who dont' work for me).

There are GMs who restrict only to the core book, and don't allow things even from the advanced players guide. It keeps things simple, some GMs (like me) are all open. A good example of this was in a game I played a few weeks ago where the GM had previously run a Rite Publishing adventure out of Adventure Quarterly, everyone said it was awesome, but the GM does not allow other Rite Publishing material.

And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as that player is having fun its cool with me.

Now to deal with the Pathfinder Society issue, I want a Best of 3PP Pathfinder Compatible book that is edited by paizo and made offical and included in the Pathfinder Society. What WotC did with Unearthed Arcana but done with an editor who is reviewing the options not designers who just pick their own material.


I think 90% of the campaign material going back to 1980 that I have used is 3rd party material be it from Judges Guild, ICE, Mayfair, Sword & Sorcery, Sword & Sorcery Studios, Troll Lord Games, Margaret Weiss Productions, Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, Frog God Games, Green Ronin and a host of others in the past and present! And yes I use some from Rite Publishing, TPK and Jon Brazer also in my current games. As for the Pathfinder Society, well they are welcome to use or not use what they wish. I am not into organized play anymore than then the RPGA was in fashion 30 years ago.

Grand Lodge

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Rite Publishing wrote:
Now to deal with the Pathfinder Society issue, I want a Best of 3PP Pathfinder Compatible book that is edited by paizo and made offical and included in the Pathfinder Society. What WotC did with Unearthed Arcana but done with an editor who is reviewing the options not designers who just pick their own material.

OhgeezIwouldbuythatinamillisecond.


^ what he said ^

And I don't even play PFS.


Why is it needed to have Paizo's seal of approval? I thought that was the point of 3rd party material? Besides, why would I want to pay for it twice and pay Paizo's inflated prices?

Grand Lodge

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Hey, if you can get the PFS team to sanction 3PP without that whole process, I'm all for it.


Quality control. The Paizo game designers are good, among the best in the business. I'm willing to pay for their expertise in spotting the subtly game breaking, and simply taking out the trash.

Because, basically, 90% of 3PP material is crap. I have higher expectations for Paizo because they've earned it over a period of years. I have very little expectations of a company I've never heard of.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

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Orfamay Quest wrote:

Quality control. The Paizo game designers are good, among the best in the business. I'm willing to pay for their expertise in spotting the subtly game breaking, and simply taking out the trash.

Because, basically, 90% of 3PP material is crap. I have higher expectations for Paizo because they've earned it over a period of years. I have very little expectations of a company I've never heard of.

The trick then is what you do with a company like Legendary Games.

We're a 3PP. But everyone on the team is also a (freelance) Paizo game designer, among the best in the business. Every one is a Superstar winner or finalist, except for Vaughn and Hitchcock who were already rolling when the contest started and didn't need it.

You like Paizo APs? Our authors wrote about 40% of them. You like the hardbacks? We've written for all of them. You like the companions, adventures, campaign setting material, heck even PFS scenarios? Our authors are on an awful lot of credits pages there too.

You may not have heard of Legendary Games until this moment, but the creators that make up Legendary Games have been cranking out an awful lot of that Paizo product that has earned your high expectations.

So, on looking at our products you'd have to ask yourself whether you think the same authors that make an awful lot of the products you already think are great for Paizo will do the same for you under their own imprint.

We're not the only company whose contributors also have a Paizo pedigree, either. I'd encourage you to check the author list on Paizo products you like and compare them to the authors of 3PPs. A lot of them are just incredibly creative folks that have more great ideas than Paizo has the space to print in their own products, so they find a new venue for their creativity. Check em out! You'll find an awful lot of familiar names out there in 3PP-land.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

Quality control. The Paizo game designers are good, among the best in the business. I'm willing to pay for their expertise in spotting the subtly game breaking, and simply taking out the trash.

Because, basically, 90% of 3PP material is crap. I have higher expectations for Paizo because they've earned it over a period of years. I have very little expectations of a company I've never heard of.

Dude, Sturgeon's Law. 90% of _everything_ is crap.


kjdavies!

Shadow Lodge

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kjdavies wrote:


Dude, Sturgeon's Law. 90% of _everything_ is crap.

As proven by a walk through any local book store.

Contributor

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I absolutely love how many 3PP came out into this thread to post their thoughts on the business. As the youngest and most inexperienced of the published authors that are commenting here, I feel that it is only appropriate if I am also the loudest and voice my opinions on the subject.

”Steven of Rite Publishing” wrote:
Paizo should make the best of us PFS compatible.

I don’t agree with this, mostly because Paizo would need to put the world of Golarion before the quality of the product in question. For example, Radiance House (the publisher I write for primarily) wrote Pact Magic Unbound and Dreamscarred Press (Jeremy Smith’s company) wrote Psionics Unleashed . We know that Golarion has a place for Psionics, and James Jacobs has mentioned that Azlanti is a good place for Pact Magic to stem from, so if the Paizo team liked our work enough, they might have to add a line like, “Psionics comes from Vuldra” or “Pact Magic is heretical and stems from ancient Azlant” but other than that, they don’t need to put much more about how to fit the product into Golarion. But what about products that are top-quality, but don’t easily fit into Golarion? And can we expect the creative folks at Paizo to spend that time trying to fit our content into their world? If they mention us in one book, would they feel obligated to mention Pact Magic Unbound if they decide to do a product on Ancient Azlant? Or Psionics Unleashed if they do a product on Vuldra? That seems less likely then my consciousness merging with the internet itself, so I can't imagine Paizo ever deciding to produce a product like this.

What we should do is continue to support ourselves and increase the amount of support we give each other. What do I mean by this? Well, all of the publishers in this thread have their fans. Dreamscarred Press shows us that time and again with their successful Kickstarters, as one example. From my experience with Daron Woodson of Abandoned Arts, my writing of one of his latest products, Amazing Races! Kitsune noticeably helped that product’s sales. I’m part of nearly every thread discussing that race and plenty of people enjoyed my work on Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 1. When Daron mentioned my involvement in the product, I’m sure that plenty of people gave a product that they wouldn’t have normally tried a chance because someone they already liked endorsed that publisher. I wouldn’t be too surprised if some of Daron’s fans check out Pact Magic Unbound for this very reason too.

To this end, we all need to start showing our support for one another more. If LPJ’s fans see that he teamed up with Jeremy Smith, who is working on a product with Owen Stephens who discusses design ideas with Rite Publishing’s Steve on their video blog, then people will follow the line from publisher to publisher out of interest. Tons of people ask, “What sort of 3PP interest someone as talented as Raging Swan Press’s Creighton, anyway?” We should show them what sort of publishers we support and broaden the circle of awareness. If Paizo were to contribute, the best thing they could do, in my opinion, is make sure to include the credentials of its authors. If Jason Nelson writes the fourth adventure in The Mummy’s Mask, then that adventure should give a blurb about Jason’s RPG credentials. To give a fun story, when the Emerald Spire was announced, I remember saying, “Why the heck are they making a big deal about Lisa Stevens writing a layer of the adventure? She hasn’t done anything.” And then I started digging. Turns out Lisa is a legendary designer in her own right, and I had no idea because that information isn’t transparent to players who didn't experience those products themselves. A new player might not know that Jason Nelson worked on some old adventure paths, or that Owen Stephens worked for Wizards of the Coast, or that Louis has been publishing material as long as Pathfinder has been its own roleplaying game (if not longer).


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Orfamay Quest wrote:

Quality control. The Paizo game designers are good, among the best in the business. I'm willing to pay for their expertise in spotting the subtly game breaking, and simply taking out the trash.

Because, basically, 90% of 3PP material is crap. I have higher expectations for Paizo because they've earned it over a period of years. I have very little expectations of a company I've never heard of.

You might want to dig a little deeper. You would find that it is Paizo that is the relative newcomer on the block while a lot of these 3rd party publishers long predate them or their designers do. Pathfinder has only been around 5-6 years now. Green Ronin has been around since 2000 and Frog God Games owes its roots to Necromancer Games which started in 2001. You may not have heard of them, but many of them have a lot more experience in game design than Paizo. So please watch the generalities and the name calling.


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The only thing that stops me from 3pp stuff is volume & time. There is alot of it and I don't have the time to sort through it.

These boards are helpful. I picked up Slumbering Tsar based on what folks have posted and it's worked out well.

And yes, 90% is stuff is crap because only 10% of stuff is Scottish. Simple math:p


FWIW, I dont use 3PP stuff in my games, but it's not a statement on quality.

I like simple games and the more books that are allowed, the less simple the game.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Orfamay Quest wrote:

Quality control. The Paizo game designers are good, among the best in the business. I'm willing to pay for their expertise in spotting the subtly game breaking, and simply taking out the trash.

Because, basically, 90% of 3PP material is crap. I have higher expectations for Paizo because they've earned it over a period of years. I have very little expectations of a company I've never heard of.

*sigh*


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My campaign features not a single PC who is not either a 3pp-class or utilizes some 3pp-feat, item or mechanic - and that's not starting with modules, NPCs, etc. and while I understand individual preferences, I somewhat pity the people who miss out on the awesomeness out there.

I was burnt as much as your next dude by the 3.0/X-glut and when I got back into 3pps via Open Design/Kobold Press and Rite Publishing (and after that Raging Swan Press and Super Genius Games) and started reviewing them, I was honestly surprised - and the community has only grown and upped the ante time and again. Better yet, new 3pps in the fold tend to improve fast to adhere to the high standard featured.

Just my opinion, of course, but even when taking mediocre (according to my standards) supplements into account, the amount of "bad" publications is less than 20% - I am still impressed by the standard all the talented designers, dedicated publishers, editors and (layout) artists managed to establish - so kudos to all those hard-working, passionate folks out there - one step at a time, your dedication is what made a reversal of the bad rep from the days of old as far as it has already happened a possibility.

Cheers!


Rite Publishing wrote:
Now to deal with the Pathfinder Society issue, I want a Best of 3PP Pathfinder Compatible book that is edited by paizo and made offical and included in the Pathfinder Society. What WotC did with Unearthed Arcana but done with an editor who is reviewing the options not designers who just pick their own material.

I don't see Paizo as supporting 3PP in PFS since PFS is the most basic terms is a "marketing arm" for Pathfinder. The more that play PFS, the more have to purchase their core rulebooks which in turn increase their "install base". I don't see the reasoning for Paizo to support 3PP that would be basically saying, "Don't buy our stuff, buy these friends of ours' stuff." The PFS is the best way to judge the amount of people playing Pathfinder on a regular basis while getting the fan base excited and interested by the next big release. Talk about killing two birds with one stone. The one thing that PFS did different (and smarter then WOTC's Living Campaigns) is that they charged for their adventures, while WOTC gave them away for free which gets Paizo to generate income and interest at the same time.

EN Publishing

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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Russell Morrissey wrote:
I don't think there's any more "anti-3pp" stigma than there is WotC stigma or cyberpunk stigma or Italian publishers stigma, or any other grouping you can imagine.
Then you and I don't run in the same circles. Last convention I was at, I was getting insulted to my face about how my material was crap (despite winning an award for the book the person was talking about) because paizo didn't produce it. And that was not a one time occurrence. Not even slightly.

I guess not. I've never experienced rudeness on that scale at a convention. If that's the norm, though, the issue isn't 3PPs, it's manners.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

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Biggest issue I have seen is that people equate "doesn't work in my campaign" or "isn't what I need" with "crap".

I currently don't use psionics in my campaign, but if I did, I'd use Dreamscarred's rules. Does that make their book crap? Certainly not, it just doesn't fit with what I'm trying to portray. Hell, I don't use every bit of Frog God Games stuff in my campaign. Does that make it crap? I hope not.

As far as pedigree for companies, it depends on what you want. Paizo has Erik Mona, SKR, James Jacobs, Jason the Bull-Man, and a host of others (sorry for leaving so many out). Plus a huge backlog of free-lancers.

Legendary Games has a ton of the said freelancers who have worked the APs people love.

Frog God Games has a ton of the said freelancers who have worked the APs people love.

If Paizo is the turkey in the Thanksgiving dinner, Super Genius, Dreamscarred, LPJ, Rite, Jon Brazer, etc are the side dishes that make the turkey dinner better. Its all a matter of taste.

As far as who is good, and who is crap, that's the type of debate the internet is famous for...

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Skeeter Green wrote:
If Paizo is the turkey in the Thanksgiving dinner, Super Genius, Dreamscarred, LPJ, Rite, Jon Brazer, etc are the side dishes that make the turkey dinner better. Its all a matter of taste.

Now you've got me hungry for mashed potatoes and stuffing smothered in turkey gravy.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

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Mmmm... gravy...

Webstore Gninja Minion

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I can understand limiting books so as to not get option paralysis when playing. But to dismiss third-party publishers out of hand means a lot of people are missing out on really excellent material that just might be *exactly* what you're looking for in your game (Pathfinder or otherwise). Even just a cursory inspection will reveal that many third-party publishers use the exact same freelancers that Paizo does. Gushing about "Rasputin Must Die" because of Brandon Hodge's work and then not picking up "Sunken Empires" (or any number of examples that my coffee-deprived brain can't come up with right now) is depriving yourself of some truly excellent gaming material.

Take a chance, take $5 and go to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatible Products section of the web store. Heck, just check out the top 10 from last week's newsletter:


  • 1. The Genius Guide to the Talented Monk (PFRPG) Super Genius Games
  • 2. Ultimate Rulership (PFRPG) Legendary Games
  • 3. Advanced Races #1: Tieflings (PFRPG) Kobold Press
  • 4. Monster Focus: Liches (PFRPG) Minotaur Games
  • 5. It Came From the Stars Campaign Guide (PFRPG) Zombie Sky Press
  • 6. The Genius Guide to the Talented Rogue (PFRPG) Super Genius Games
  • 7. Psionics Unleashed (PFRPG) Dreamscarred Press
  • 8. Trapsmith (PFRPG) Kobold Press
  • 9. The Spiritualist (PFRPG) Drop Dead Studios
  • 10. New Paths #5: The Expanded Monk and Ninja (PFRPG) Kobold Press

and just check out the *variety* of stuff you can get.

(Also, seeing all the shiny stuff comin' in from y'all is one of the highlights of my day. Keep it coming. :D )


While I love Pathfinder, I have no particular loyalties nor needs for Pathfinder Society, nor Golarian. So what PFS limits means absolutely nothing to me. Consider that I too am a freelancer, and am one of the contributing authors to The Empty Throne, of the Jade Regent AP.

Contributor

Rite Publishing wrote:


Now to deal with the Pathfinder Society issue, I want a Best of 3PP Pathfinder Compatible book that is edited by paizo and made offical and included in the Pathfinder Society. What WotC did with Unearthed Arcana but done with an editor who is reviewing the options not designers who just pick their own material.

Very neat idea. I would love to see that!


I was just having a conversation like this with Christina about a month ago ;-)

I actually asked on my facebook if people used 3pp material. I got a verity of responses really. Many were hopeful but reluctant. They said they liked the IDEA of 3pp products but had concerns about quality.


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Here's our current campaign's list of allowed material. Basically, everyone bring two pathfinder or 3.0/3.5 books and we'll make a game out of it.

Midnight Campaign Setting
Arcana Unearthed (A replacement for the Core Rulebooks)(Monte Cook)
Pathfinder Core Rulebook (for “core rules” — skills, feats, combat, etc., but no Races, Classes, or Spells)
Ultimate Magic
Tome of Battle
Monster Manual III
Dungeonscape
Spell Compendium (SPELLS! Lots of spells)
Tome of Magic
Incantations from the Other Side & Incantations in Theory and Practice (plus Incantations culled from Kobold Press Midgard materials.
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Complete Champion
Weapons of Legacy
Ponyfinder (Pathfinder My Little Pony races
Encyclopedia Magica (2nd edition collection of magic items)
Fire & Brimstone - A comprehensive guide to Lava, Magma and super heated rock.

My homegrown that has been in development forever is using most of the Pathfinder hardbacks, with some caveats.
Products and options from the following publishers including but not limited to:
Wizards of the Coast
Kobold Press (Deep Magic will be a must!)
Super Genius Games
Abandoned Arts
Drop Dead Studios
EN Publishing
Frog God Games
John Brazer
Legendary Games
Louis Porter
Necromancers of the Northwest
Purple Duck
Raging Swan
Rite Publishing
Spes Magna Games

Most of these are not full products, but bits and pieces of things that fill specific niches within my game world.


At my table I allow lots of 3pp material in my game. In fact, my personal house rules require the use of 3pp material to some extent. Everyone gets additional abilities out of the 'archetype' set of super genius games products. So no one plays in my game without some 3pp on their character sheet, and most add additional 3pp material of one sort or another to their characters. I also use a fair amount in my npcs. In the opening of Rise of the Runelords that I started recently, I used a Kobold Press Battle Scion Goblin to spice up the raid in the opening of the adventure path.

But I get to choose what I am comfortable with. I disallow options even as I let them in, and that include both Paizo 'official' material and 3pp stuff. PFS gms dont have that choice. PFS players dont get a say in the kinds of characters they play along side. As much as I love the Super Genius Dragon Rider, or the Dreamscared Press' Soul Knife, it just isnt going to be a fit for everyone's fantasy game. The more inclusive that sort of stuff gets, the more chance there is for a bad experience.

I personally dont think its a great idea for 3pps to persue organized play. But then again it doesnt affect me in the least, because I dont believe in organized play. I think the game is best played with a group of friends, who in general know and like eachother and that the GM should have control over the world and adventure he runs, as well as the rules of the game. Organized play GMs are handcuffed to raw and the objectives and details in the pfs scenarios. Thats just my opinion ofcourse, like I said, what happens to PFS has no affect on me whatsoever, I just dont think its a good idea.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Rite Publishing wrote:

Now to deal with the Pathfinder Society issue, I want a Best of 3PP Pathfinder Compatible book that is edited by paizo and made offical and included in the Pathfinder Society. What WotC did with Unearthed Arcana but done with an editor who is reviewing the options not designers who just pick their own material.

This, a thousand times this. I would give one of my roomies' kidneys, heck two, for a PFS legal Vanguard, since all my playing is PFS right now.

Well not Rocky's kidneys. Chihuahua is too important.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I was just thinking the other day that PFS could benefit from a vetting process for 3PP content. Maybe it's a bridge too far, but some mechanism to certify select 3PP content for PFS would be really nice. There's a lot of great 3PP content out there, and let's face it, not even all of Paizo's own content passes muster for PFS.

My hypothetical 3PP PFS plan would let 3PPs apply for a PFS Seal of Approval to get their content added to the Additional Resources list. Certified content would have to pass both a quality and a campaign setting appropriateness test, but there's no need for Brock and Compton to do that personally (more work with little/no return); they could farm the approval process out to VCs or 5-stars and get a pretty good feel for the suitability of a given bit of content. Ideally, the process would be stringent enough that only a short list of 3PP would become available for play so as not to eclipse Paizo's own content (not that I think that could realistically happen in PFS). As with Paizo's own Additional Resources, players using certified 3PP content would have to be able to show hardcopy or a watermarked PDF, which could create a technical challenge for 3PPs seeking certification; each 3PP would have to choose if the potential return of being able to market to PFS players would be worth the cost of implementing PDF watermarks.

Has no one thought of this already and shot it down in flames for unfeasibility?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Alexander Augunas

Re: Your Stuff in Pathfinder Society Book.

Actually if it was Rite's dream "Third Parties of Golarion" book for PFS, it could be done with a paragraph at the beginning of each section.

Ala "I enjoyed the concept of Pact Magic when it first appeared, then when Radience House ran with it, I thought this was awesome. Pact magic fits wonderfully here in Golarion, though we've not done anything with it yet. Their website is www.radiencehouse.com"

Basically, give a 'who they are' 'where it's from' 'why it's in this book' and 'how it fits in Golarion lore' paragraph.


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Personally, I don't like to use 3PP rules (feats, classes, etc.) because of the 3.x era (and seeing how quickly characters that break the game can be created). Yes, it's my job as GM to rule on such things, but I don't like expending the energy to do so.

But I *LOVE* 3PP adventures and settings. Necromancer and Frog God Games create the style of adventures I most enjoy. Slumbering Tsar just may be my favorite gaming adventure product ever.


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I've gotta back up what Dale's saying. I was talking about one of the classes I'm working on for PDG/4WFG on a fan group owned or sponsored or whatever by d20PFSRD. The only response I got was "Ew, Third-Party." So yeah, the stigma's there.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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It could be a 'fun' boon on scenarios.

"You have kicked the butt of a pact mage. You may take feats/traits etc from the Pact magic suppliment put out by Radience House."

"You have discovered the secrets of a vanguard, you may make a vanguard PC or take class levels in Vanguard for this PC." :-)

Contributor

And those of you who like Kobold Press, note that they are up for a few Ennies, so somebody is liking some 3PP stuff!

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I love using 3PP when it applies to my games. I don't use characters options too often because there are so many options for PCs already that I rarely need them. I did look into and buy Open Designs PDFs for the witch, alchemist, and cavalier but I haven't used them yet.

Most of the 3PP stuff that I use is setting and GM material. Legendary Games just came out with a great one I am using in my Kingmaker game, as was Tales of the Margreve earlier in the AP and the Used Chariots PDF from Super Genius Games for on of the PCs. I bought Tome of Horrors for more encounter options, and have my eye on a few other monster books.

But this is for Pathfinder. A friend of mine gave me access to a bunch of D20 modern stuff and I rarely found anything in those that I wanted to use and there were several products that were poorly edited, clearly not play tested, and just way off balance. This is sad because D20 modern needed more material.

I also wish to become a freelancer, so being against 3PP would hurt me. At least reading the products provides me a broader range of understanding of what I can look forward to doing and what is possible.


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Alexander Augunas wrote:


”Steven of Rite Publishing” wrote:
Paizo should make the best of us PFS compatible.

I don’t agree with this, mostly because Paizo would need to put the world of Golarion before the quality of the product in question. .... I can't imagine Paizo ever deciding to produce a product like this.

You would make it setting neutral in the same way that the Core Book, Advanced Guides,and Ultimate books are setting neutral. If you want an example of how it could be and has been done go look at The Year's Best D20 by Monte Cook. Its been done and done well before. Its a matter of having the will to do it.

I don't expect this to happen until Paizo finishes out its ideas for big hardbacks.

as to support, this is something extra to ask for , not something that you should do instead of suporting ourselves, or supporting others.


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Quality control. The Paizo game designers are good, among the best in the business. I'm willing to pay for their expertise in spotting the subtly game breaking, and simply taking out the trash.

Because, basically, 90% of 3PP material is crap. I have higher expectations for Paizo because they've earned it over a period of years. I have very little expectations of a company I've never heard of.

*sigh*

10% of everything is crap by Sturgeon's law.

But the amendment to that statement is the remaining 10% is worth dying for.

Also the only person who should really get to say this is Endzeitguest who actually reads nearly 100% of third party material.

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