|
A player wants to use Polar Midnight on several Dread Wraiths.
He says the wraiths, can be affected because of this line in incorporeal rules:
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own."
I tend to agree, since the spell encases in a wall of ice, but how big is the wall.
Second, the player says the Dread Wraiths wouldn't know the spell would freeze them unless that knew what spell was cast. I said it is likely they would know they were being frozen, since it takes roughly a round or so for the encasing to begin. It would seem if one were starting to freeze they would attempt to move away from the area. Using the player's argument, I would relate that to: if a player was on fire, he would have to know he was burning in order to put it out...
Spell below...
Polar Midnight
School transmutation [cold, darkness]; Level cleric/oracle 9, druid 9, witch 9
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect 30-ft. spread
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
Paizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
DESCRIPTION
You plunge an area into the brutal chill of the arctic night. Illumination conditions are dropped by two steps (though only to darkness, not supernatural darkness), and all creatures in the area take 5d6 points of cold damage and 1d6 points of Dexterity damage per round. A successful Fortitude save each round negates the Dexterity damage but not the cold damage. Any creature that doesn’t move on its turn becomes encased in a sheath of ice equivalent to wall of ice, is helpless, and cannot breathe. Corpses in the area for longer than 1 round are transmuted into solid ice; reviving the icy corpse requires true resurrection, miracle, or wish. As a move action, you may move the area of effect up to 10 feet in any direction.
Note that undead are immune to effects with fortitude saves unless that effect works on objects. So the round to round cold/dex damage does nothing. That said, nothing in the text requires someone to suffer that damage to become encased in ice, it just requires they not move. So no fort save is involved, and that should work.
The first point of the player's seems fine. As for the second...since the wraith is immune to the cold and dex damage (as above), it is actually a good argument that it might not even notice it is being frozen. They might notice the temperature drop around them despite not being actively harmed by it, though. So...I'm not sure on the second argument.
couldnt the wraiths pass out of the frozen state since that really the only solid object though? Since its just freezing their body shape and thats all?
Also note that non-force effects have only a 50% chance to affect incorporeal targets, so they'd only be encased half the time.
I thought PF changed it to doing 50% damage, rather than 50% chance of working?
In any case, if that applied, it would be 50% chance of encasing at all; not encased 50% of the time. Because encased 50% of the time means encased 0% of the time, effectively.
The way I read it:
As Undead the fort save only applies to the dex damage and so undead are immune to the dex damage.
Incorporeal take half damage from spells where this cold damage is from a spell they would take half as there is no save against the cold damage. so 50% cold damage.
RAW this spell states that if they move even 5 feet on their turn they can avoid the encasement effect.
Although they probably wouldn't stand around while their existence is being threatened by the cold damage.
I thought PF changed it to doing 50% damage, rather than 50% chance of working?
In any case, if that applied, it would be 50% chance of encasing at all; not encased 50% of the time. Because encased 50% of the time means encased 0% of the time, effectively.
The damage is halved. Non damaging effects have a 50% chance of working.
I don't understand why you'd say a 50% chance is effectively 0%. It'd be a 50% chance. That's a 50% chance. Where is this further reduction coming from?
I don't understand why you'd say a 50% chance is effectively 0%. It'd be a 50% chance. That's a 50% chance. Where is this further reduction coming from?
Because when the effect in question is to hold someone to an area or in place, or is reliant on that, having it fail 50% of the time means it cannot function at all. Especially depending on how 50% of the time is defined. If it's for entire rounds of on/off, that's one level of worthless. If it's down to the second or more frequently, it is the pinnacle of worthless.
So again. I have an effect. It is meant to hold you in place. It works 50% of the time. So, when it goes off, I roll a d100 to see if it affects you at all or not.
Alternatively, I have an effect. It is meant to hold you in place. I don't know what % chance of working it's supposed to have, but apparently you can walk right out of it every other round, so it sounds like a 0% chance of working to me. If it's not holding you in, it's not actually working, after all.
MPL:That 50% chance is checked upon the casting of the spell. It is not checked every round.
Corbin:You are partially correct, but they also can not pass through an area larger than they are. Now I think the intent was to stop them from moving through objects that are already there, not to have them encased in a spell affect.
This seems to be a side affect of a spell and a rule not interacting as intended since it does not make sense to say a creature that is not even affected by normal object being stuck inside of them.
He says the wraiths, can be affected because of this line in incorporeal rules:
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own."
The wall is 1 inch thick per caster level.
So the ice forming around non moving things will be one inch thick per caster leve (pretty hefty).
Unfortunately even at level 20 the is only 20" of ice. Nowhere near a five foot square so the Wraiths will automatically be able to move through it even if they do stay still long enough for the ice to form on them.
Also since they are incorporeal they have no corpses to freeze so that effect does not bother them.
If they are not immune to cold damage then they will take that damage while in the area of the spell.
The wraithss only need to stay adjacent to an objects exterior if it's space/size is bigger than their own. Most wraiths are medium size so by that rule they can pass through one square thicknesses of any matter and not be forced to stay adjacent to the exterior. Note though that it says they must stay adjacent to the exterior. It does not say they cannot do that from WITHIN the material. So they could melt into a wall and the wall would block line of effect from the spell. They could move adjacent to the wall and pop out anywhere there movement could take them.
Even if they don't move for a round they can still move out of any ice that forms due to the limitations of it's thickness as per Wall of Ice.
|
|
My two main questions were whether or not the wraiths would "have the knowledge" that they -could be- encased. The player says no that this is metagaming. I ruled it is not metagaming in this case since it is an effect of the spell and they need not know the spell itself- only that they could be frozen if they didn't do something.
That being said, Gilfalas shows the ice wall created would not be substational enough to prevent the wraith from moving, due to their incorporablity.
The rules DO state: An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass ENTIRELY through an object whose space is larger than its own.
This would suggest they can still pass through
I was referring to encasement only wraithstrike. I am unconcerned with the wraiths attacking back unless the OP takes the conversation in that direction. Which has not happened so far as I can tell. But perhaps it was implied.
I understood that, and that is what I was addressing. The rules say they can't move through objects of a certain size, not that it matters now because someone pointed out that the ice is only 20 inches thick even at level 20.
My two main questions were whether or not the wraiths would "have the knowledge" that they -could be- encased. The player says no that this is metagaming. I ruled it is not metagaming in this case since it is an effect of the spell and they need not know the spell itself- only that they could be frozen if they didn't do something.
That being said, Gilfalas shows the ice wall created would not be substational enough to prevent the wraith from moving, due to their incorporablity.
The rules DO state: An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass ENTIRELY through an object whose space is larger than its own.
This would suggest they can still pass through
Yeah it would be metagaming. You need spellcraft to determine the affect of a spell before it takes place. It is possible that this ice spell has no trapping affect to it at all.
I don't think it would affect them so it is mostly a non-factor.
MPL:That 50% chance is checked upon the casting of the spell. It is not checked every round.
I never suggested anything of the sorts. The wraiths would have a 50% chance to be encased. Either they're encased or their not--I would never check every round or every second anything else silly. Half of the time, they get encased. That's all I said.
MPL:That 50% chance is checked upon the casting of the spell. It is not checked every round.I never suggested anything of the sorts. The wraiths would have a 50% chance to be encased. Either they're encased or their not--I would never check every round or every second anything else silly. Half of the time, they get encased. That's all I said.
I misread your statement..That is one debate I dont have to have now so all is goo.
What about the part of the spell that says the sheathe of ice is equivalent to wall of ice? Wall of ice:
Wall of Ice
School evocation [cold]; Level magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3; Bloodline boreal 4CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of quartz or rock crystal)EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect anchored plane of ice, up to one 10-ft. square/level, or hemisphere of ice with a radius of up to 3 ft. + 1 ft./level
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesThis spell creates an anchored plane of ice or a hemisphere of ice, depending on the version selected. A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. Fire can melt a wall of ice, and it deals full damage to the wall (instead of the normal half damage taken by objects). Suddenly melting a wall of ice creates a great cloud of steamy fog that lasts for 10 minutes.
Ice Plane: A sheet of strong, hard ice appears. The wall is 1 inch thick per caster level. It covers up to a 10-foot-square area per caster level (so a 10th-level wizard can create a wall of ice 100 feet long and 10 feet high, a wall 50 feet long and 20 feet high, or any other combination of length and height that does not exceed 1,000 square feet). The plane can be oriented in any fashion as long as it is anchored. A vertical wall need only be anchored on the floor, while a horizontal or slanting wall must be anchored on two opposite sides.
Each 10-foot square of wall has 3 hit points per inch of thickness. Creatures can hit the wall automatically. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 15 + caster level.
Even when the ice has been broken through, a sheet of frigid air remains. Any creature stepping through it (including the one who broke through the wall) takes 1d6 points of cold damage + 1 point per caster level (no save).
Hemisphere: The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level. The hemisphere is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach.
The bold bits are what I am referring to. So if it's the equivalent of wall of ice, would the area that the ice covers come into play as well? And since this is a question about the ice wall being bigger than the Dread Wraiths (or since they're incorporeal, the area they take up), ice wall allows 10 square feet per caster level, wouldn't that be big enough to stop the Dread Wraiths from passing through it, since it is one object taking up 1,000 square feet (at caster level 10) of space?
I ask you to consider that question and read this portion of the entry for incorporeal again:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
If the answer is that the Dread Wraiths can go through it, are they able to go through ceilings and floors? I question this because of the entry for Wall of Force:
Wall of Force
School evocation [force]; Level magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered quartz)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
A wall of force creates an invisible wall of pure force. The wall cannot move and is not easily destroyed. A wall of force is immune to dispel magic, although a mage's disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of force can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which automatically destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of cancellation instantly destroys a wall of force.Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually circumvent the wall by going around it, through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
Wall of force can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
This spells says that Ethereal creatures can go through floors and ceilings to get around a Wall of Force, but it doesn't mention incorporeal creatures being able to do that.
I think Incorporeal is getting mixed up with Ethereal, because Ethereal can go through solid objects, even living creatures, but the entry for Etherealness does not list the restrictions Incorporeal does:
Ethereal
An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. An ethereal creature can move through solid objects, including living creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear on the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and ephemeral. Sight and hearing onto the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.
Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane.
An ethereal creature treats other ethereal creatures and ethereal objects as if they were material.
Any thoughts after what I have presented?