|
I'm hoping to create a compelling argument here that could counteract the potential intense sadness of a decent amount of players...wait a bit on that until we've hashed this out
I don't think there is any cause for this since...
this is the decision that the PFS team has made and is what we are going with
|
|
I don't think there is any cause for this
With all due respect, Bob, this doesn't modify the overarching decision at all, it simply relaxes things a bit to potentially make more people happier. Paizo does try to listen to their customers and I have seen them consider reasonable suggestions in the past, even and especially on issues that they firmly ruled on such as Crane Style.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
you dare to reverse a ruling knowing it would result in many many angry posts
Technically they didn't have anything to do with it. It was a decision made by the game designers. Mike/John just decided to stick to the intent that PFS follow PFRPG as closely as possible and decided how to best incorporate it into PFS. Its important that players understand the difference.
But your sentiment is not lost :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
|
you dare to reverse a ruling knowing it would result in many many angry postsTechnically they didn't have anything to do with it. It was a decision made by the game designers. Mike/John just decided to stick to the intent that PFS follow PFRPG as closely as possible and decided how to best incorporate it into PFS. Its important that players understand the difference.
But your sentiment is not lost :-)
Well, John Compton was the one to bring the new reversed ruling to light. Maybe he pulled the shortest straw.
Huh, didn't expect my post to garner that kind of attention. I'm agreeing with the new ruling, after all.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
Oh well, since I didn't have a single character who planned to take this option, it really does not bother me. It is a little sad for those who were building towards something like a MT.
My sympathy is a bit tempered by knowing those some players have been using the normal ways to get into the class for years.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
My sympathy is for the noble prestige class, that had seen a resurgence in popularity that will likely die down now. I love prestige classes and the number one thing that has always saddened me about Pathfinder is the de-emphasis on prestige classes as "viable" options rather than just flavorful ones.
I don't feel that I should have to lose character efficacy just to be part of an awesome organization that I love the lore for. And, frankly, I can say I'm part of that organization without being the prestige class, and without being sad because my character is technically weaker. Don't even get Favored Class Bonuses on prestige classes, one of the niftiest little additions Paizo made to D&D...
The original SLA ruling made me feel like I can be a cool AND competent Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight, or Bloatmage, or any other prestige class improved by early entry. And now I won't get to experience that, as I hadn't made a character to take advantage of that yet and now I won't be able to.
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even though I have to rework one of my character's build, I'm happy with this. I really appreciate how much the team is working to pull back the power-creep that has exploded over the past couple years. One of the main reasons my group likes Core so much is avoiding crazy builds on par with Synthesists. And, unlike the Aasimar / Tiefling thing, all we're losing is early-access options; granted that will make some classes (looking at you, Mystic Theurge) far less appealing, but it's not the same as completely losing the options.
In short: I like it.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, John Compton was the one to bring the new reversed ruling to light. Maybe he pulled the shortest straw.
Ponder this statement in light of your previous (now deleted) identification of the old FAQ as "SKR's ruling". Could SKR have pulled the shortest straw as well?
|
|
Do note that this will also affect characters trying to pick certain feats, such as Arcane Strike.
Well, John Compton was the one to bring the new reversed ruling to light. Maybe he pulled the shortest straw.Ponder this statement in light of your previous (now deleted) identification of the old FAQ as "<redacted>'s ruling". Could <redacted> have pulled the shortest straw as well?
Excellent remark. I retract my previous inconsiderate statement.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair the Bloatmage is still a perfectly decent option.
True, but that actually reinforces the point even more. The SLA wasn't even needed for more "power" in this case, it literally just let me play more of the prestige class I like, sooner, as a member of the organization I like.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
My sympathy is for the noble prestige class...
I also enjoyed the resurgence of the PrC, but I was uncomfortable with the means by which it came about.
I'd much prefer that paizo relaxed the prereqs for PrCs a bit rather than allowing specific corner cases. I don't think it's much better if the only way to have an effective* mystic theurge is to be a specific variant of a specific race or worship one of a few deities.
*whatever your definition of that might be
So I'm happy for the change but a little bummed by the results.
I do need some help in framing this as paizo hating martials. Any ideas?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, uh, I don't want to get in a debate about this (please don't derail the thread debating about this guys) but... I'm pretty sure anyone can agree a Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 5 is not gonna be keeping up with his peers very well. Even if you still manage to see this as an effective character you have to admit it's stretched pretty thin and has a number of very awkward levels in the character's progression.
I do need some help in framing this as paizo hating martials. Any ideas?
I'd like to keep the Paizo staffs' interest in this thread from turning into annoyance so I'm not gonna touch that.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The original SLA ruling made me feel like I can be a cool AND competent Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight, or Bloatmage, or any other prestige class improved by early entry. And now I won't get to experience that, as I hadn't made a character to take advantage of that yet and now I won't be able to.To be fair the Bloatmage is still a perfectly decent option. You need 5 wizard levels so you grab a bonus feat and what it gives is arguably as good, if not better, than an extra bonus feat and many level 8 school abilities.
Bloatmage is still a viable class for a game that is going to go up to 20 or at least the high teens. For say PFS where you retire at 11th it just got really bad. Early entry let you bloat effectively at level 3 and get your capstone at 11th. The build was always going to be Wizard 10/Bloatmage 10. Early entry made the build stronger from 3rd to 14th.
|
My sympathy is for the noble prestige class, that had seen a resurgence in popularity that will likely die down now. I love prestige classes and the number one thing that has always saddened me about Pathfinder is the de-emphasis on prestige classes as "viable" options rather than just flavorful ones.
Are you talking about Noble Scion? As it is not PFS legal I'm guessing you are talking about something else?
|
|
There ya go then. I want to have as much fun in my characters' careers as possible, not wait around wanly waiting for it to "kick in" if I can just get through 'x' more games...
I completely agree. I've never liked that you have to "do your time" to get enjoy a prestige class. But I was also uncomfortable with the exclusive nature of the early entry options. So I'm glad the loophole is gone, but wish they would make earlier entry available to everyone.
My sympathy is for the noble prestige class, that had seen a resurgence in popularity that will likely die down now. I love prestige classes and the number one thing that has always saddened me about Pathfinder is the de-emphasis on prestige classes as "viable" options rather than just flavorful ones.Are you talking about Noble Scion? As it is not PFS legal I'm guessing you are talking about something else?
I think the sympathy is for prestige classes in general, and they were collectively being referred to as "noble."
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
My sympathy is for the noble prestige class, that had seen a resurgence in popularity that will likely die down now. I love prestige classes and the number one thing that has always saddened me about Pathfinder is the de-emphasis on prestige classes as "viable" options rather than just flavorful ones.Are you talking about Noble Scion? As it is not PFS legal I'm guessing you are talking about something else?
His use of the word "noble" was just how he felt about prestige classes in general. He means that people hardly ever played prestige classes until the previous FAQ, and then they started showing up a little bit, and now they're going to disappear again.
|
|
Yes, that. But I totally wish I could play a Noble Scion! I'd be cool with passing over the Leadership stuff, they have a lot of other fun things going on! I don't think their small bonus gold stipend would be unworkable in terms of a PFS ruling; there's a Bard archetype that's allowed to double their Day Job gold bonuses, for example.
But this sounds like a discussion for another thread. Man, I forgot how cool that prestige class is...
|
|
People got grandfathered in this time. I had a character at 10th level in Slow Progression rendered "table illegal" due to a change in January of 2013.
I like that Paizo is trying to downplay PrCs. Characters with a valley of suck aren't a lot of fun - and I speak as someone who's played more than my fair share of them. (Human Fighter/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight, anyone? Crossblooded Efreeti/Orc bloodline Sorcerer who doesn't get 2nd level spells known until 5th?)
Glad this change got made, glad they grandfathered characters that had already early-entered, glad they didn't give a window for "mad dash level upping."
And if you feel that you have to "compete" with "shenanigans" that other characters have? You're missing one of the major points.
Explore
Report
Make your characters unique by their personality, their motivations and why they work for the Society, not "I have managed to exploit this corner case of the rules," please.
Or, if you're really aiming for "I've got a build nobody else has...!"
Here's your challenge:
No more than one level in any single class.
No more than one class with a full BAB progression.
Make it viable! Go!
Anyone can make a bloatmage. Can you meet that challenge and make a character who's a viable team contributor from level 2 through level 11?
|
Well, uh, I don't want to get in a debate about this (please don't derail the thread debating about this guys) but... I'm pretty sure anyone can agree a Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 5 is not gonna be keeping up with his peers very well. Even if you still manage to see this as an effective character you have to admit it's stretched pretty thin and has a number of very awkward levels in the character's progression.
Given that that's the case - and having GM'd a MT the long way (abjurer 3/druid 4/mystic theurge 4 before the game ended) I can assure you that it is - it's an issue with the prestige class, not the ruling. Mystic theurge needs a spot in PF Unchained 2 or something.
|
|
Mekkis, I actually felt the SLA ruling made a lot of sense and solved the issue fairly cleanly. Obviously some people felt otherwise, but I felt it actually did a bang-up job of solving the entry requirements for these prestige classes on a global basis instead of needing to actually alter rules text in the prestige class, which Paizo will not do without reprinting (as in the case of the Pain Taster, a prestige class that was recently reprinted and edited slightly to change its entry requirements).
Mystic theurge needs a spot in PF Unchained 2 or something.
Sure, that would do it, but that's still solving things on a case-by-case basis as opposed to the nice blanket fix from before. *shrug*
Would that make the class "not suck" as many seem to indicate?
I didn't refer to it as "sucking" at any point, although phrases like "ineffective compared to other options" can certainly be thrown around. And that's found elsewhere in the game as well, and it's always exciting to me when an option's effectiveness is boosted and saddening to me when it's lowered.
Contributor
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just as a reminder (I can't find the post Mike Brock made saying this at the moment, but I 100% know he said this) -
"If you think it's a loophole, use it at your own risk, for it may close without warning"
(I think that was in reference to using weapon cords for fast two-gun-mojo fast-reloading cheese for gunslingers, but it does apply universally)
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Using that logic, why not just make mystic theurge "ability to cast both arcane and divine spells"? Then anyone could play one starting at level three.
Or even keep the skill rank prereq so you can't get in until 4th.
Would that make the class "not suck" as many seem to indicate?
Probably. At least until you try to play them past MT10. ;)