So, now that we have this FAQ, and this FAQ, a whole slew of Prestige Classes have opened up, and other various builds.
So, other than 3rd level Eldritch Knights, what other things have opened up?
Any advice on creating new builds around the combination of these two FAQs?
Kinda confused as to what specific faqs you meant... sorry... can you elaborate>?
Also Most of the prestige classes in Pathfinder seem... nerfed...
Can we fix some of them... such as the Rage Prophet Prestige class
Follow the links.
Well, getting into them around 2nd, or 3rd level, make them much more viable.
Rage Prophet is not really effected by these FAQs.
I followed the links... perhaps they are broken?
One link opens up a Faq about
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
Most spell-like abilities should be considered arcane, unless the spell in question only appears on the standard cleric or druid spell list (such as holy smite) or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity).
("Standard spell list" meaning "not altered in some way by an archetype, prestige class, racial ability, and so on.")
—Pathfinder Design Team, today
and the other is
Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?
Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.
For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).
For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).
Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/10/13
Has nothing to do with Prestige classes... unless I'm missing something>?
Can you elaborate instead of posting links? (I'm not trying to Troll or be a D-bag... I'm confused as to what you are referring to in the Faqs
I think they mean using SP abilities to qualify for PrCs that require you to 'cast 2nd level arcane spells/caster level of x' or the like. At least that would be my guess from the first link.
A for the heighten FAQ, not quite sure what that has to do with it.
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Neither link goes to any FAQ about Heighten Spell.
I have double checked.
They are:
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
Most spell-like abilities should be considered arcane, unless the spell in question only appears on the standard cleric or druid spell list (such as holy smite) or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity).
("Standard spell list" meaning "not altered in some way by an archetype, prestige class, racial ability, and so on.")
and...
Item Creation Feats: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?
Yes.
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How are you qualifying for third level spells at level three for EK?
BBT is referring to this entry in the FAQ.
Although, wouldn't an aasimar be able to take the Eldritch Knights at level 2?
Well, level 1 actually.
The Daylight spell-like ability.
The combination of these 2 FAQs opens a lot of possibilities.
I am not quite sure how to stress that more.
I am looking to see much more of what it opens up.
2nd level, they have no proficiencies without another class. EK couldn't be used to qualify for itself. The other issue is, not having a spell list to advance wastes the PrC for all intents and purposes.
Realistically a level of some martial class and some caster class would be necessary. Get all martial weapon proficiencies and have a class to advance casting via EK chosen at 3rd level. Also you'd have to keep a decent chunk of your wealth aside to purchase scrolls of spells as you wouldn't be getting any from leveling up EK.
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I'm starting a guide on that: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZFnvgbhjMibHJRft0dl_4gbcMw0-dAMUFYFlsyS 7d60/edit?usp=sharing
What´s the spell level of a SLA?
I'm guessing "closest associated class", defaulting to Sorcerer, cleric, druid, bard in that order.
Or did every monster with a Dominate Monster SLA lose 3 points off the DC when the APG gave the spell to summoners as a level 3 spell?
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See here.
Damn. There goes the gnome's level 3 arcane spell.
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Sorry to rain on your collective parade, but...
Where exactly did you come to the conclusion that an SLA meets the prerequisite 'must be able to cast X - level arcane spells' for a prestige class?
I see a 'yes' to item creation, I see a comment that most SLAs count as arcane (nota bene: not as arcane spells), and I seem to remember that having a particular SLA (e.g. Dimension Door) qualifies for the prerequisite 'Capable of casting Dimension Door.
However; that's about it. So, I am unable to follow the leap of logic along the lines of 'SLAs are arcane, so they must be arcane spells, so they are a qualifying ticket into PrCs'.
I'm sorry to say, but this whole attempt to loophole a shortcut into EK, MT or whatever PrC still appears illegal to me, on top of actually pinning the cheese-o-meter.
Question: For all it's worth, why did no one of you plainly ask the question 'Can I meet a PrC's requirement of can cast arcane spells of Level X or higher' by possessing a SLA of appropriate level?'
The "hierarchy of spell lists" description of SLAs and the "assume Arcane" faq don't mesh well with each other. You're checking the same list twice, with different sorting criteria. Gnomes get Speak With Animals (Bard 3, Druid 1, Ranger 1) as....a 1. level arcane SLA.
First, does the character have a spell-like ability?
-> If yes, use FAQ to determine type and level.
Second, does the SLa count as being able to cast that spell for prerequisites?
-> Yes, see FAQ for explanation.
Third, For prerequisites, can this character effectively cast a...
First(a) -> Use the FAQ to determine type
First(b) -> Use the hierarchy [Sorcerer/Wizard, cleric, druid, bard, paladin, ranger, $UNDEFINED] to determine level| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Possibly from the linked info; http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13 Back to Top
I am aware of that one (I think I actually stated that very example).
However, while being able to cast Dimension Door (whether as a spell, a SLA) obviously qualifies as being able to cast Dimension Door (duh!), the connection to 'thus is able to cast 4th level arcane spells' (or even 'cast arcane spells' at all) is the very link I am missing.
The fact that a Dimension Door SLA counts as being arcane does not make it an arcane spell.
The fact that I can create magical items that require Dimension Door, supplying my SLA in lieu of the spell does not make my SLA an actual arcane spell
So; a Feat, a PRC, or whatever that needed the ability to cast Dimension Door would easily accessible by having the SLA.
A Feat or PRC requiring being able to cast arcane spells would not.
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This is what happens when you completely abandon intent and try to exploit every single wording change and bend things to the point of ridiculousness. pure chaos!
My games will continue to run them as "Able to cast 3rd level spells from your current arcane class spell list"
@Midnight Angel
Logic
Start: able to cast NAME SLA
FAQ 1: SLA counts as spells for prerequisites
So now you meet the prerequisites that reads
Step 1: able to cast NAME SLA/Spell
for extention
Step 2: able to cast ANY_ONE SLA/spell
FAQ 2: SLA are either arcane or divine
So if your SLA is arcane for example now in addition you meet the requisites that reads
Step 3: able to cast ANY_ONE arcane SLA/spell
MOSTER MANUAL: SLA have a spell level equivalent
So continuing the example now you meet also the requisite that reads
Step 4: able to cast ANY_ONE x° level arcane SLA/spell
where x is the level equivalent of the SLA
witch is a subset of
Step 5: able to cast x° level SLA/spells
I hope is clear, i'm not the best at writing.
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Conclusion: Spell like abilities obviously grant a caster level of some kind. If it works for (general) item creation, it works for PrCs as well.
Granting a caster Level says exactly ZERO about counting as the ability to cast spells of a certain spell level. Last time I checked, the PrC entry prerequisite was 'able to cast ($flavor) spells of Level X', rather than 'caster level Y'.
I am aware that SLAs count as being of a certain spell level regarding concentration checks or penetrating various defenses... yet still, they are something different from actual spells of the associated level. Unless my memory fails me, it is repeatedly writen that 'SLAs are not spells'.
If you come across a PrC, or Feat that requires 'able to cast Daylight', go ahead with your Aasimar. You are fulfilling that prerequisite. Likewise, your friendly neighborhood Succubus will easily qualify for any Feat of PrC that requires 'Caster Level X' (if X < 13).
However, if the requirement is 'able to cast arcane (or divine) spells, your SLAs just won't do the trick.
So, a SLA counting as a divine / arcane spell for all requirements and actually granting you a caster level doesn't meet the requirement of being able to cast spells of a certain level?
Umm... a SLA does not as a divine or arcane spell.
Please cite the snippet of the rules claiming is counts as a spell, rather than an ability that mimics the effect of the spell with the name mentioned.
So, a SLA counting as a divine / arcane spell for all requirements and actually granting you a caster level doesn't meet the requirement of being able to cast spells of a certain level?Umm... a SLA does not as a divine or arcane spell.
Please cite the snippet of the rules claiming is counts as a spell, rather than an ability that mimics the effect of the spell with the name mentioned.
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13Back to Top
Allowing SLAs to qualify for a PrC is never going to fly.
The worst part of this thread is, Richard Baker managed to anwer the exact question for WotC back in 2004, when Complete Arcane introduced SLA-using PCs.
Allowing SLAs to qualify for a PrC is never going to fly.
What exactly is the issue here?
Its an advanced character build using advanced racial options and already requires GM approval for every case I can think of this working.
I cant see any legit reason to oppose it unless other people having fun with it bothers you. You can always houserule it... which goes both ways of course.
But i think more options with the gm having veto authority is better than less options in the box.