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Sure. Some builds suck at healing. You can take an Evil deity and I think your cure spells become inflict spells, right? This isn't about individual builds. It's about an attitude that as a cleric, I'm not healing you unless you give me a wand to do it.If a cleric doesn't want to heal my barbarian because he doesn't carry a wand. That's fine. My barbarian simply roleplays accordingly. I'm more than happy to let the cleric do the rest of the fighting.
Ok So my cleric that for the whole fights uses negative channel causes the bad guys to waste their attacks trying to steal not held items from you in battle that provokes and is right by you flanking is not worthy of you defending? Because I know who will get attacked before that barbarian.
Just because anyone is ANY character class does not mean anything. As long as the group is supporting you int he ways they are capable of doing so then you should support in the way you are meant to.
Typecasting a cleric to buy a wand for you with a waterdown petty childish "well you can take all the hits and I will watch the fighting" is sophmoric and hypocritical. Your barbarian can spend 2PP and get a wand for the cleric to use on him as well.
If someone contirbutes equally to a fight it does not matter their class or silly sterotypes people put on them. That is like an offensive lineman saying "I hate michaeel vick won us the football game by running in 3 touchdown. He is a quarterback he should pass the ball."
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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However, in 8 levels of play, casting a healing spell on an ally has only been my best option on my turn approximately once. The rest of the time, I kept everyone safer by doing something else.Once again, you're arguing something that has nothing to do with the central issue.
Wait, you mean "The vast majority of my cleric's contributions aren't healing" has nothing to do with discussing whether healing is a cleric's primary role?
Could you explain that please?But if you think that a cleric (who isn't specifically and intentionally built as a healer) is going to assess his options each round, and decide that healing someone is the best way to contribute...Nothing to do with what I'm talking about. But if you want to rant about people who expect you to heal first in combat. I'll pause for a moment so you can get it off your chest.
Wait, you mean "I'm rarely going to be healing" has nothing to do with talking about healing being the primary role?
Could you explain that please?Healing is an option in their repertoire, but it is FAR from their primary function.Healing is their primary function. Combat and buff spells are secondary.
According to what? Certainly not the Core Rulebook. So where are you getting your information?
You're confusing primary function with best option.
Then could you explain the relevant difference?
No, expecting the guy fighting alongside you with the same risks and expenses that you have to also have to foot the bill for your healing in addition to his own is utterly selfish.In the scenarios I've run with my non-dump stat barbarian and the a dwarven battle cleric (War Domain?), the cleric didn't do 1/10 the damage my barbarian did. Throwing out examples of how your specific build is doing X,Y,and Z, is irrelevant. We're talking about the average results.
Wait, so anecdotes of my cleric's contributions are irrelevant, but your own anecdotes represent "the average results"? That's an... interesting claim. Especially when you say you don't see many clerics...
More importantly, we're talking about the mindset of the people who designed the 3.5 ruleset.
Funny, I'd have thought that the mindset of the people who designed the ruleset could be divined from reading what those people published in their own damn book, but you tossed that out when it disagreed with you. So which of the designers is it whom you know personally and can attest to their mindset being different than what they published?
Your whole case is coming across as very "Here's how it is, facts be damned" thus far.
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"Lastly, we're talking about clerics refusing to heal unless someone gives them a wand."
actually no.
We're talking about clerics refusing to sit at a table with you if you don't shoulder the responsibility for your own OUT OF COMBAT healing.
I'll keep you up till the end of the first fight. Then we may have to send you back to the Lodge...
You are to large a drain on the party resources.
You see, my clerics often don't have wands. It's a complex issue... And so you would be draining the resources from the other party members.
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Every one of my characters has a wand to heal themselves, or to give to a spellcaster that can use it. If you choose not buy your own way to heal yourself, then that is your choice and you can play your character how you want. However, everyone else has that same right and should not feel obligated to go out of their way to coddle another character that failed to come prepared. They can play their Cleric however they want. Not every Cleric player wants to fill the healbot/support caster role.
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Sure. Some builds suck at healing. You can take an Evil deity and I think your cure spells become inflict spells, right? This isn't about individual builds. It's about an attitude that as a cleric, I'm not healing you unless you give me a wand to do it.
If a cleric doesn't want to heal my barbarian because he doesn't carry a wand. That's fine. My barbarian simply roleplays accordingly. I'm more than happy to let the cleric do the rest of the fighting.
If you pulled that at my table, you would be leaving without a chronicle sheet the minute you did it.
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I have been sitting here trying to think of why this wand thing bothers me as much as it does. It can’t really be about the wand. As I read this thread the primary sentiment seems to be that I should be responsible for my own healing. It is unfair for me to expect others to use their wand charges to heal my character.
I think what upsets me about these two sentiments is that they both come from a point of view profoundly different from my own. I think of the groups as a team where we all chip in. I feel like the charges off the wand should be freely given as needed and the characters who offer and provide those charges should be praised and thanked. My wizard offers up his spells and skills to the group. He passes out consumables freely. It is almost alien to think that other players don’t sit down with the same mind set and the uses of wand charges are resented. I want to hear “We will keep our party healthy.” And “All contribution is valuable enough that the cost of charges isn’t worth considering.”
My wizard was built to be a studious intellectual. When he joins a party he brings with him knowledge. His role as I have built him is to tease out clues and plot tidbits. He isn’t really supposed to be a combat character. I took attack spells primarily so that I could fill the combat role expected of me. (Not solely that, I mean shooting lightning from my fingertips is just cool, but largely so.) I try to make the game being played at every table I sit at better for having me in it. When I am told that I need to get a curing wand it feels like I am being told exactly the opposite is happening.
I have a Paladin. He heals. He has a Cure Wand. I would like to use it more when I play him. It fits my idea of him. He is a dark paladin. A tiefling who took up the code of the paladin because he has no moral compass of his own and sees The Dawnflower as a path to a salvation he fears is lost to him by birth. He heals not out of empathy but duty.
Everyone is so out for self that it bothers me. I don’t like feeling as if nothing my wizard or any other character another player brings to the table is worth the charges required to keep him up. I also don’t like feeling that there is no camaraderie in the Pathfinders. I buy into the premise that we are all pathfinders and in this together. I like the idea that even with factions dividing us we are all Pathfinders together.
So, being told that I have to have a wand is like telling me I am on my own. That no one is willing to be as responsible for me as I am willing to be for them. Everyone keeps saying that a wand costs next to nothing. That goes both ways. I could get a want that cost next to nothing to heal myself, but everyone else shouldn’t have to use their wand that cost next to nothing to keep me in the fight to keep me up and fighting for them. If my wizard fell in battle but kept his team alive that is a death I would be happy with.
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@TimrehIX,
I am sure that your party or fellow players don't expect you to "be on your own" when it comes to healing.
Try to see it from another view. Not everyone is as selfless as you when it comes to consumables.
I, myself have spent charges healing fellow party members. In most games, we all chip in to heal each other as a party contribution.
What would upset some people is the ideal of a fellow party member not willing to help in this party contribution.
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Part of it comes from the fact that PFS loot isn't really "group loot" after the scenario is over, and the gold you have is your own.
By expecting another player to use his own per-day resources (which are likely emergency-only resources) instead of paying your way for your own healing, you're lessening the resources of the whole group, draining those emergency party resources.
If you want to share wand charges because you're the one who's mostly going to be getting hit every game, it's not outrageously unfair to ask for someone else to use their wand on you, either.
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"I don't want to have to spend my resources keeping my PC in the game, I need one of you other guys to do that."
I am trying to say that I will spend my resources to keep you in the game right up to and including sacrificing my character’s life to do it, and it bothers me that this attitude isn’t common.
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@TimrehIX
You're not completely wrong. Every character IS part of a team and every character should try and help his team.
My caster characters always have a large array of scrolls that they or their companions can use. All my characters try hard to cover lots of the bases that money can cover. Alchemical fire, potions, utility magic items, etc etc. And I'll always share those with the party.
Some I'll share with absolutely no resentment. Its part of the fun of playing a spellcaster to have scrolls for every occasion. And its unreasonable to expect a fighter to have a scroll of touch of the sea.
But some I'll partly or significantly resent sharing, at least with experienced players. A few flasks of Alchemists fire should really be in EVERY characters inventory. I should NOT have to spend my money on Alchemists fire because the other members of the team didn't do so.
I'll still share. I want to win. But I'll resent it. To be explicit, I've no problem when inexperienced players haven't covered all the basics.
Healing is a bit of a special case. Pretty much everybody gets hurt. But some characters DO get hurt more than others, at least in general. But, at least at the games I see, this is largely handled by the barbarians and fighters getting all the cure light wound potions that litter most scenarios. And on several occassions the fighter will be healed by somebody elses wand.
But, ultimately, it is absolutely YOUR responsibility to have the magic items that you need to make your character effective. Much of the time you won't need them. The wizard will cast fly. But if you're playing a melee character at mid to high levels you absolutely SHOULD have a potion of fly.
That responsibility includes having the items capable of healing yourself.
As others have pointed out it is also just wrong to assume that any character will fill a particular role by virtue of their class. Every single class has archetypes that go far from the "normal" expectations. Yes, many clerics heal. But you can't assume that. Many fighters deal lots of damage. But you can't assume that. Etc, etc etc
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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Most of the PFS players I play with are ex-Living Greyhawk campaigners. They are quite happy to either provide their own healing or not - either way is fine. However, one Barbarian I play alongside owns several cure wands, and several pearls of power. Why? Because he wants to ensure he will get healed when he needs it, even when there are only 'combat clerics' in the group. Does he resent doing this? Not that I can see - it just makes good sense for a character who could easily consume an entire day's worth of spells just recovering from one combat.
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Yea that is exactly the type of person that people don't like exhausting their resources for, when that player is equally capable of buying his own healing.
Unrelated but...
Spell Resistance doesn't hinder any spells or wands you use on yourself, only ones that other people use on you.
actually, no. But thank you! ...you might want to check the rules on this one (I have several times).
SR would not stop any spells I cast on myself, and as a result Potions will work (you are both the target and caster for potions). But wands are external. I've been thru this many times.... I know the drill. It's a standard action to drop your SR for a round. And then ... someone else would need to use the wand.
I used to believe that as well. It is not a very well known rule.
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.
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What was he a cleric of? I'll repeat this possibility here.
"Fights over channel to heal me!
"I don't know if thats a good ide...
"DO IT!"
*channels negative energy, looks down at smouldering corpse* "I'm not that kinda cleric and if you'd put a rank into knowledge religion you would have known that..."Neutral clerics of evil gods are a legal role playing choice in pathfinder
Even if you can't use a wand of CLW SOMEONE in your party can. I know its not the bright shiny new sword that you want to spend your money on, but the cleric/bard/druid/alchemist probably has something they want to spend their money on too.
I know on my cleric i like to save my channels for ranged healing or AOE's rather than just healing up one person. (or shield other and channel to get twice the mileage out of it)
I pretty much have to second this. The cleric is not the only healer available: druids, oracles, and alchemists can all heal, as can the Inquisitor, though that's probably not THE best idea. As was said earlier, though, you can buy the wand of CLW. You can buy the wands needed to heal, and allow the divine spellcaster or someone with UMD to use it.
Clerics multitask, as do the other divine spellcasters. We are not just there to be a healbot. We should not be expected to be the ones to do all the work to maintain the party. You should chip in to help us, because if you don't, then I won't help. Historically the cleric has been the go-to class for healing, and this changed slightly with the advent of the Favored Soul in 3.5, and the Oracle in Pathfinder. But just because you roll up a cleric does not mean you should be looked at and told to heal. In World of Warcraft, Paladins, Shamans, and Priests were all expected to heal for the longest time. You didn't do much else, though you might get to tank or DPS in an instance, if you were lucky. Blizzard pushed that concept out the window as expansions rolled out, and with Pathfinder they've certainly tried to follow this trend with varying archetypes to maximize certain skillsets.
And yes, if you look at my cleric and tell me to heal, I'm going to heal. I'm going to channel every negative energy I can to make a point, and if you die, well...you should have told me to stop "healing" you sooner. I don't take well to being told what to do if it's not what my character was rolled up to do. I don't think anyone likes to be told to do something like that.
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I have absolutely zero problem with a person refusing to buy a CLW wand. I do have a problem with that same person asking for healing.
Your resentment comes from the feeling that people are imposing their will on you:
"You have to get a CLW wand."
"No I don't," you think, "because healing's not what I do. I've chosen to contribute in other ways.
What you don't seem to understand is that demanding, or even expecting that someone else heal you is the same thing. You are telling your party members it is their job to heal you. You are defining their role (at least in part) for them.
Further, if "your role" of Fighter includes charging into the BBEG and getting a full attack in the face, the job of healer that you have assigned to me starts to get more expensive. Why should my expenses be reliant on your competence?
And this isn't really about healing.
You know what else I resent? When the Wizard doesn't carry a weapon in case he runs out of spells. Or when the Monk demands that I use my wand of Mage Armor on him. Or when the Fighter demands I give him one of my potions of Fly because he doesn't bother with ranged weapons and the harpies refuse to get in range of his axe.
As far as I'm concerned, an intentional lack of preparation ("because that's my guy's role!") is in the same school as acting like a jerk and blaming it on your character ("because that's what my guy would do!")
tl;dr
You can pick how you want to play. You just can't ask others to subsidize it.
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The full quote, from the PRD is at Spell Resistance from PRD Glossary. I'd quote it here, but I'm still getting used my iPad.
It has been my observation that in general people are very generous with their healing wants. In fact, often times it seems like people are competing to use their ones on each other. So it seems, That the norm is for people to help each other with their healing.
I know now, I carry of one of either cure light wounds or infernal healing on each of my characters. I am willing to use them on others, if needed, but I would expect that everybody carry their own healing. In fact, it has been impressed upon me, and I now agree, that not only should you have a one of cure light wounds, you should also have at least one or two potions of cure light wounds. This is, of course, in part because if you are not able to cast the spell, you can use one of these potions to revive a fallen healer. It is also a buffer for that rare situation for when there are no characters able to use the wand.
Heck, yesterday my rogue, who does carry a wand of CLW, made a point that he'd be using his wand out of combat (using UMD), at least until he had a catastrophic failure and could no longer use the wand for the day. Luckily that did not happen, but my point is that he did not even want to bother the cleric. Now, if he had a couple of potions back when he went through My Enemy's Enemy, the final fight would not have been such a close thing (he missed a UMD roll trying to get back a few hp before re-entering combat.
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Yeah, a player shouldn't demand anything OOC. IC, if the fighter isn't getting healed, he should just stop fighting. If the cleric has no more spells to heal, then we fail the mission, or the cleric can take point. But there's no need to get confrontational about it.
You DO realize that the OP was getting miffed because he wasn't getting OoC healing...not IC healing...right? Nobody was even remotely saying that if IC healing is needed, it's not the clerics jobs to take care of that as they are generally the best for that job. The issue was OoC healing which everyone should be accountable for.
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I have been sitting here trying to think of why this wand thing bothers me as much as it does. It can’t really be about the wand. As I read this thread the primary sentiment seems to be that I should be responsible for my own healing. It is unfair for me to expect others to use their wand charges to heal my character.
I think what upsets me about these two sentiments is that they both come from a point of view profoundly different from my own. I think of the groups as a team where we all chip in. I feel like the charges off the wand should be freely given as needed and the characters who offer and provide those charges should be praised and thanked. My wizard offers up his spells and skills to the group. He passes out consumables freely. It is almost alien to think that other players don’t sit down with the same mind set and the uses of wand charges are resented. I want to hear “We will keep our party healthy.” And “All contribution is valuable enough that the cost of charges isn’t worth considering.”
My wizard was built to be a studious intellectual. When he joins a party he brings with him knowledge. His role as I have built him is to tease out clues and plot tidbits. He isn’t really supposed to be a combat character. I took attack spells primarily so that I could fill the combat role expected of me. (Not solely that, I mean shooting lightning from my fingertips is just cool, but largely so.) I try to make the game being played at every table I sit at better for having me in it. When I am told that I need to get a curing wand it feels like I am being told exactly the opposite is happening.
My wizard (well EK) has a myriad of scrolls and wands...and one of those wands is healing (infernal healing actually). I have to use my myriad of scrolls often. Quite often actually. A couple grand worth many times. And do you know WHEN I have to use those scrolls? When other players aren't prepared (No seriously folks, have a fly option on hand by level 5). I still bring all my knoweldges, my ability to do damage in combat, do BC, do buffs and debuffs. But even then, you just need that extra oomph to keep people alive and the bad guys dead. And I STILL take care of my own OoC healing. There were a couple times where time was of the essence and people with CLW used their wands instead of course, but yeah come prepared. No matter WHAT your playing, you should come prepared for yourself AT LEAST if not to shore up anyone who isn't up to snuff (who should THEN get advice on how to be better prepared). The reason the other players were getting mad is they gave you advice and you REPEATEDLY ignored them until they finally had enough and cut you off from draining their resources.
My Charisma 8 cleric of Gorum does not believe in healing he believes in smacking things.
He particularly doesn't believe in healing people between combats who rush in to danger attempting to show off and take huge damage unnecessarily or who are a class that can heal themselves with cure light or infernal healing wands :D
He also took a Domain that gave him Enlarge Person and bought pearls for it so he does not have to keep asking arcane types to waste a spell on him.
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Yeah, a player shouldn't demand anything OOC. IC, if the fighter isn't getting healed, he should just stop fighting. If the cleric has no more spells to heal, then we fail the mission, or the cleric can take point. But there's no need to get confrontational about it.You DO realize that the OP was getting miffed because he wasn't getting OoC healing...not IC healing...right? Nobody was even remotely saying that if IC healing is needed, it's not the clerics jobs to take care of that as they are generally the best for that job. The issue was OoC healing which everyone should be accountable for.When I say IC, I mean In-Character
When I say OOC, I mean as one player to another.
If in character, your fighter stops fighting...he dies. Seriously, he's gonna stop moving around and just stand there helpless...well then as a GM, your getting CDGed. Sorry. If you just run away, well then great, your out of the adventure, you get a 0/0 chronicle sheet.
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My 6th-level cleric has invested significant resources in channeling (3 feats: extra channel, selective channeling, quick channel) giving him 7 uses per day, and is good aligned, so has three 3rd-level spells he can substitute for cure serious wounds.
Bear in mind that in a crisis, he can burn through all of the above in seven rounds, which also leaves him without any uses of daylight, prayer etc. So it's a resource to be used wisely, not just when the fighter whines.
He's currently saving up 11,000 gp for a phylactery of positive channeling so his channeling is even more effective. So don't go implying that he's not spending enough of his resources on keeping the party standing because he expects others to chip in 2 PP for their own wands...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My two C-bills,
yes, you buy a wand of CLW, just fighters should buy potions of enlarge person protection from evil and any other 'utility' spells. Heck, Talyn's 9th level and still has smog pellets, air crystals, tangleburn bags and other stuff.
Why? Because you can't rely on your partners to have the gear and skill sets you need.
I've played with dedicated channeling builds. I've played with clerics who inflict. I've played with no clerics. I've played the 3rd level character 'slumming' with level 1s, who b*&$$es constantly about having to use her cure light wound wand on the others. "I bought this for me, not for you."*
You pack your own consumables, because you may need them. The OP talked about using his own abilities to run around in combat. That's nice. It doesn't change that the cleric might want to do the same thing.
*
I agree that all PCs should take some responsibility for their own healing, whether that's wands, potions, scrolls, etc.
But on the other hand, every once in a blue moon I'm mystified by how reluctant someone is to use Channel (positive) Energy. It's a renewable resource, after all; you don't get bonus XP or gold for having unused channels left at the end of the scenario.
EDIT: That doesn't just apply to clerics of course; I've seen sorcerers who'd rather plink away with a crossbow all day than use one of a dozen spell slots, for example.
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Let me see if I understand this correctly. Fighter fights until he's low on HPs. Cleric, who could heal him, refuses to heal said fighter because fighter didn't buy his own wand. Fighter roleplays that he's no longer fit to take the lead. You kick him from the table without a sheet if he won't fight until he's dead?If you pulled that at my table, you would be leaving without a chronicle sheet the minute you did it.Sure. Some builds suck at healing. You can take an Evil deity and I think your cure spells become inflict spells, right? This isn't about individual builds. It's about an attitude that as a cleric, I'm not healing you unless you give me a wand to do it.
If a cleric doesn't want to heal my barbarian because he doesn't carry a wand. That's fine. My barbarian simply roleplays accordingly. I'm more than happy to let the cleric do the rest of the fighting.
That is not at all what I said. I was responding to your comment that if your Barbarian did not get healed by the Cleric, that he would let the Cleric do the fighting. And if you did that, you would be kicked from my table. Refer to the guide:
Do Not Bully Other Players
We’re all friends here, and we’re all playing a game
together with the single purpose of having a wonderful
time. Do not push other players around just because
your character can. Extreme forms of dysfunctional play
will not be tolerated. A little fun banter between PCs can
be great roleplaying, but when you find yourself doing
everything in your power to make another character
look like an idiot or to undo everything that character
is trying to accomplish, you’ve probably lost sight of the
purpose of Pathfinder Society Organized Play and may be
asked to leave the table. Playing your character is not an
excuse for childish behavior. GMs should work with their
event coordinators to resolve any out-of-game conflicts.
If you are both the GM and the coordinator, use your own
discretion. Extreme or repetitive cases should be resolved
by asking the offender to leave the table.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I may regret this decision, but I feel an overwhelming urge to chime in.
There appear to be several debates going on at the same time in this thread, with a lot of people interpreting the same statements in many different ways. As I see it, the primary debates don't even necessarily revolve around wands of cure light wounds, but instead boil down to "Is it reasonable to expect another party member to purchase and provide resources for my character's use?", "Is it reasonable to expect that a party member who has those resources available use them for me?", and "Is it reasonable to expect a certain role from a certain class?". Let's tackle these in the order they occur, shall we?
There are a lot of variables that can contribute to this argument, but I'll try to be succinct. If you have spoken with your party members, and they have agreed to provide a portion of your resources, you can rely on them for those resources and that is acceptable. In this case, the provision of those resources is now assumed by the character. I would argue that this situation is neither fair nor balanced, as you now have more resources available for your personal use than the other party member, but that is a discussion best left for you and your other party members.
I would also propose that in PFS, it is a bad idea to expect someone else to provide your resources, regardless of any prior agreements. Your character is likely to be involved in many adventures, and party structure and available class roles will vary wildly from table to table. To use the Cure Light Wounds wand as an example, in the vast majority of these, there will not be a dedicated healer, and occasionally, there won't be a capable healer at all. Expecting there to be a healer to provide you with that specific resource will leave you at a disadvantage to all other players who have prepared their own methods of healing for these circumstances. It then stands to reason that you should behave in the most selfish and self-interested way possible, by buying a cure light wounds wand of your own. In this one motion, you have guaranteed yourself out of combat healing, regardless of party make-up. This same argument holds true with other resources. If your build requires enlarge person, it is ideal that you buy a handful of potions of enlarge person to ensure that you have that spell available even if there is not a caster available to cast it for you. If your build requires the opponent to be flat footed, it is in your best interest to provide your own means of invisibility or sneak attack.
Reasoned out this way, it appears to me that both the selfish person and the selfless person would provide their own resources, albeit with vastly different mindsets. To do otherwise is to invite character death on a regular basis.
Here's where things appear to get tricky. For ease of discussion, I'll use another example from earlier in the thread. Let's assume someone in your party has a scroll of breath of life, and you have just died. They can reach you within one round, and they can cast the spell, expending their scroll, to preserve both you and their character. Is it reasonable to expect them to do this for you?
No. Now let me explain why. That scroll represents a large investment on their part, a safeguard against the terrible and unfortunate. They have used it to ensure that at the hour of direst need, they can ensure that someone is alive who needs to be alive for the success of the mission. That may not be now, that may not be you, and it is entirely within their rights to refuse to use the item on you. After all, you have just died, and may have inadvertently broadcast yourself as a poor investment of their resources. The root of the issue is that you have been placed in a circumstance where you are, unfortunately, relying on another person to be charitable in order to keep your character alive. Charity can never be expected or ordered of another person. If it could be, it wouldn't be charitable behavior, it would be an obligation, and while we are all obligated to contribute to a fight, there are no explicit rules limiting how we do that.
However, I would argue that the person with the scroll should cast that scroll anyway. Yes, they are your resources, and yes you have worked hard to earn them. Nobody in their right mind would deny that you, as a player, are entitled to determine how to use the gold that you earned and spent for yourself. And yet, Pathfinder is a cooperative game, Pathfinder Society even more so. This player has made a poor decision, or suffered a bad run of luck, and is now dependent on your charity to survive. I would recommend saving them if at all possible. Is it optimal combat? No, but people rarely behave optimally, especially without training. Help them now, they'll learn what to avoid, and both parties will be more likely to succeed when they game together in the future.
Addendum: If the person in need of your resources to survive is unwilling to learn, demanding or expectant of the resources, rude, crude, bullying, aggressive, selfish, overly competitive, or uncooperative, please let them die. There is likely a lesson they need to learn about how to treat other people with respect before they can learn the thread appropriate lesson about playing this particular game.
In absolutely zero cases is it reasonable to expect a given class to perform a given role. This is a respect issue for the players as much as it is an issue with optimal gameplay. There are certainly optimal builds for each role and for each class, but every player is here to do something that they find enjoyable. It may be provable beyond all doubt that dedicated healers are sub-optimal characters, yet a player has every right to play that role if they so choose. The game and gameplay being what it is, we are all here to enjoy ourselves. It is presumptuous and disrespectful to tell another person that they are required to change their style of play, and likely reduce their enjoyment of the game, just to suit your style of play. This is true of all games, but especially roleplaying games as flexible and variable as Pathfinder. When you can build any one of a myriad of characters, why should you settle into one of a handful of predefined roles? I have seen players play illusionists, grapplers, trip characters, freerunners, tanks, healers, buffers, debuffers, intimidate builds, mind controllers, counter spell-casters and necromancers. All of those characters were very successful in their chosen role and contributed greatly to the party's success, all without relying on there being another party member in a specific role for them to be functional. Not one of those characters felt limited by the default options presented to their class, and limiting them to a preconceived notion of their capabilities would have ruined the player's enjoyment of the game and actually limited the party's functionality on the whole.
My personal advice is to play what and who you want to play, but don't rely on everyone else to make your character fun, useful, or alive. Be both contributory and self reliant, and I will always appreciate your presence in my games.
After such a large post, I feel the need for a disclaimer. Sometimes my words are more dextrous than I want them to be and work their way into unintended interpretations. If something I have said can be interpreted in more than one way, and one of those ways is insulting, degrading, abusive or childish, I assure you that intended it the other way.
edit: typo
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I recently GMmed a near-TPK at level 1. The party was a monk, a magus, a sorcerer and an oracle who was built around combat rather than healing. It was also the Oracle's first scenario, so it couldn't afford the wand. In a particular fight, all of the characters aside from the sorcerer were unconscious, and the sorcerer only survived by casting Magic Missile and maxing on the damage. Had the sorcerer rolled a 3 instead of a 4, it would have been a TPK.
Afterwards, though, the party was in a pickkle. Why? Because nobody had a wand of CLW. Everybody followed the OP's logic and chose not to get one or was too new to have one.
While yes, having clerics and healing oracles and paladins and such around is nice, it's certianly not something you can regularly rely on. Given the crap that most cleric characters have to deal with based on their party's expectations, it's no wonder that it's not a particularly popular class. In the 60+ games that I've GMmed, I would say that a solid half of them didn't have a cleric - therefore, you really, really shouldn't expect that there will be one handy to heal you when you need it.
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So you don't like being told you have to have a cure wand, but you feel completely comfortable telling the cleric he has to heal you instead?
What do you mean you did not bring wands of enlarge/haste/bull's strength?
Sorry, no buffs for the party today. How dare you expect me to expend my personal resources on your character.
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So you don't like being told you have to have a cure wand, but you feel completely comfortable telling the cleric he has to heal you instead?What do you mean you did not bring wands of enlarge/haste/bull's strength?
Sorry, no buffs for the party today. How dare you expect me to expend my personal resources on your character.
It looks like you're being sarcastic, but this statement is entirely correct. If your build relies on something, bring that something to the table. There is no guarantee that you will sit down with a party that has healers or a party that has buffers.
Yes, it's weird if the wizard is casting Bull's Strength on himself when he doesn't need it. But it's not weird if the wizard doesn't have it memorized, and doesn't want to use his arcane bond to pull it out of his spellbook for someone else.
Yes, it's weird if the Cleric refuses to heal someone about to drop when he has nothing else to do, but it's not weird for the Cleric to have other priorities if he's not a healing build.
You never know what you're going to get at a table. You need to come prepared to handle a variety of things, including your own problems.
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tl;dr
1) Characters of any spellcasting class that has CLW on their spell list (regardless of their ability to actually cast that particular spell or any spell at all at that level) are able to use a CLW wand at lvl 1. So not Wiz/Sorc. Every other caster can, though.
2)Feel free not to buy a method of healing yourself when at a table with me. If Im playing, I reserve the right not to heal you with my resources. Especially if you throw a tantrum at the table like you did in the first post.
Observation (not mine): "Channel positive energy" is a supernatural ability. It doesn't stop bleed effects. (It does heal damage already accrued, though.)Bleed Condition:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
Hmmm. Never thought about this before. Good to know.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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So you don't like being told you have to have a cure wand, but you feel completely comfortable telling the cleric he has to heal you instead?What do you mean you did not bring wands of enlarge/haste/bull's strength?
Sorry, no buffs for the party today. How dare you expect me to expend my personal resources on your character.
If your fighter absolutely needs some buff spell to be functional, then yes, he should provide that himself to make sure he gets it. But unlike healing, a fighter can probably get along without buff spells, especially if that means it frees up that wizard to help by casting blasting spells, crowd control, etc.
I have a cleric who focuses on debuffs. I've invested a lot of feats (Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration) and gold (metamagic rods, headband) into making sure my save-or-sucks go off. If a party member shows up and expects that I spend half of my level 2 spells on bull's strength for him instead of hold person, sound burst and so on, then I'll kindly point out the Potions 'R Us on the way to the Lodge.*
*Out of the kindness of my heart, I'll usually ask beforehand if anyone wants me to prepare any particular buffs, but you won't be getting more than 1 or 2 from me.
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My opinion and experience is that, most people that play the "dumb barbarian" stereotype also manage to do fairly stupid things (generalizing here) that in turn causes them to be damaged. I have a simple rule if I'm playing a healer class... I don't heal stupid with my resources.
So that means, you do the stupid and don't have a way for me to heal you... tough luck .. hope you have the HP to survive the combat ... and yes, I will take note of how much damage you took from the stupid and I won't heal that with my resources.
Here is my reasoning.... our characters are given a certain amount of funds after an adventure. I'm already expending my fund to provide party support as well as upgrade gear and the like to make me better and to support the party better. If I'm working to support the party from two different fronts, why do you only get to spend funds to support the party from one?
A basic CLW is 2pp, not a huge expenditure... if we want to talk funds, I can show you my list of other support items and you can tell me who is supporting the party more.
Another simple viewpoint -- a party is a cooperative effort which means everyone needs to be able to contribute in every capacity they are able -- as a barbarian I don't expect you to be able to channel, however, I do expect you to have consumable resources to contribute if you expect to drain the parties consumable resources ....
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I think it's a good if you're not playing the typically thought of stereotype of your class, to not state your class and instead state what you character is good at. It gives them a better idea of what your character is capable of.
Using one of my characters as an example:
"I dispel magic very well, buff people with abjuration magic, and find and disable traps" instead of "I'm an abjuration specialized seeker oracle."
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I know that locally, ie.. in the Jax area, we're not to bad on this. A LOT of players are pretty charitable with their wands of clw. Typically giving them to the cleric with a 'take care of the group' attitude. We have a few players that prefer to get their charges on them.. but that is more to spare the healer his spells than 'my stuff for me'.
That being said I've been told by other folks that my cleric's job is to 'hang back an heal' and that as a versatile channeler I'm 'wasting' my channels whenever I use them for anything other than healer (Megacon) or that I should focus more on curing than anything else.
Most of the locals don't buy into that outlook, given that Roasa is the type that hammers things with diplomacy/intimidate (Antagonize feat), hand out 50 gp potions for others (Enlarge Person, Prot vs Evil, ect) and carry scrolls for her 'social work' (Cultural Adaption, ect) to be the face.
I commiserate with the OP, you got TOLD you NEEDED to get a wand. I get that you're not happy with the command tone, but if you were down here, it would most likely have been offered as a suggestion. Would you have been complaining about that if two or three players suggested it?
I only ask because we, the guys down here on the 1st Coast, tend to offer input on each other a lot.
It's not a BIG expense, but I get how you can be a bit bent out of shape if you're TOLD repeatedly to get one. Just don't let it dig at you like that. In 10 years will you recall it?
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Hey you're a cleric who doesn't heal and Bob's a rogue who doesn't find traps.
Since you don't heal Mr. Cleric, you'll be taking point to find traps today. And when the fight begins, we expect you to be in the front lines battling it out against the BBEG, with your 20 AC.
Since Frank the Tank with his 25 AC fighter ain't interested in taking all the damage, if Mr. Cleric can't be bothered to heal him in battle, so your AC 20 Mr. Cleric will have to share some of the damage, up front.
And my archer, he won't be firing 3 arrows per round with his multi-shot since he doesn't want to become a target, if Mr. Cleric won't heal him, when all the baddies want to kill him for doing 40-80 dmg each turn.
The only time I expect to use my CLW wand as a fighter, is if there is no healer in the party, otherwise, I EXPECT the healer class to heal. You'll never out damage my archer, so why bother with your piddly channel negative energy and your crappy Cause Serious Wounds?
And before you whiners start talking to me about not knowing how clerics work, MY primary character is a lvl. 7 Cleric. Oh and I HEAL, I do other things, but I HEAL. Because I'll never out dmg the alchemist or the archer or the rogue but I might keep them on their feet just a few rounds longer to kill the BBEG with the superior dmg, rather than waste spells that might be resisted or might get saved against for 1/2 damage.
So spare me the little, "I don't wanna heal, I want to play a battle cleric," attitude. It will take you three successful turns to do the damage any of the damage classes do in one turn. So sack up and do your JOB.
And this isn't directed at anyone here in particular, its just a pet peeve of mine, when Clerics don't heal. Because they think they are so cool doing 1d8+4 with their enhancement spell, while my archer is doing 1d8+12 x 3 each turn.