My group is divided on the subject, half the group thinks that prepared casters are better than spontaneous casters and the other half doesn't care which is better.
Something i would like to add in favor of prepared casters (i don't think it was mentioned) METAMAGIC. Yes prepared casters use better matamagic than spontaneous casters because prepared casters can use metamagic rods without an increase in casting time but spontaneous casters don't get away that easily.
On the wizards vs sorcerers front, wizards make better blasters than sorcerers.
Go look up the Spellbinder Archetype for Wizard.
Yes, yes. One spell of each level you can 'convert' other spells to as a full round action. As I said, if you read my entire post, there are a few toys that go the other way but on the whole they are marginal in power compared to the ability to have a huge list of spells you can cast at will as needed affected by metamagic as you desire while also having the ability to (spontaneously) cast nitch spells you need via things like mnemonic enhancers, pages of spell knowledge, and rings of spell knowledge.
Let's not even talk about the false priest archtype who can use scrolls to add virtually the entire divine spell list to his option (or at least the key points, like heal, restoration, and so forth). I see your access to the entire wizard / sorcerer list with 15 minutes or more to prepare (assuming you left slots open) and I raise you full access to the majority of the wizard / sorcerer list and the best spells off the cleric, druid, and paladin lists as standard action.
On the wizards vs sorcerers front, wizards make better blasters than sorcerers.
Yes, the evoker's +1/2 damage per level definitely matches up well against the orc bloodline's +1 damage per die (much less the draconic / orc +2 with one element, +1 with all others). Plus, you know, having to prepare all of your blasts ahead of time vs. being able to spontaneously cast whatever blasts you want while still having access to a ton of utility is a definite notch in the wizard's belt.
also get the wondrous item creation feat and make several pearls of power for each level with 24 int at level 8 my wizard can prepare 6 spells per level up to 3rd level spells. and I have 2 pearls of power for each level up to caster level 4, in total i can cast 8 spells per level just like a sorcerer. I prepare about 2/3 damaging spells per level and about 2 to 3 utility spells like haste, shield and stuff.
that way I have 3 magic missiles 3 scorching ray 2 fireballs 2 haste than once i use those prepared spells I can use pearls of power to recast them, also i have summon monster 4.
I plan to make like 2 more pearls of power for each level up to 4th spell level at least. 5th level spell slots will be devoted to empowered fireballs and stuff =D
A cool trick that eats up the majority of your wealth, and also requires a standard action in combat to refresh a given spell slot.
On the wizards vs sorcerers front, wizards make better blasters than sorcerers.Yes, the evoker's +1/2 damage per level definitely matches up well against the orc bloodline's +1 damage per die (much less the draconic / orc +2 with one element, +1 with all others). Plus, you know, having to prepare all of your blasts ahead of time vs. being able to spontaneously cast whatever blasts you want while still having access to a ton of utility is a definite notch in the wizard's belt.
Please don't be ironic if you think that the only important thing in a blaster is the damage (which the wizard can match), wizard evocer (admixture) X/sorcerer crossblooded (draconic, orc) 1. Go look the build up. If you throw the spellbinder archetype in the mix it becomes even better (although i don't there is a reason for this).
EDIT: I forgot the varissan tattoed archetype for the sorcerer level.
Right... so the wizard can poach the sorcerer's tricks to be as good as him?
Right... so the wizard can poach the sorcerer's tricks to be as good as him?
No, to be better than he could ever be.
Seriously go look for the build (or ask someone to explain it you), if you know what a blaster needs and what are his problems then you'll see that this wizard build is better at blasting than any sorcerer build.
Right... so the wizard can poach the sorcerer's tricks to be as good as him?No, to be better than he could ever be.
Seriously go look for the build (or ask someone to explain it you), if you know what a blaster needs and what are his problems then you'll see that this wizard build is better at blasting than any sorcerer build.
I'm sorry, but if the extent of your argument is 'look up this l337 build someone posted' you aren't very convincing. Having seen sorcerers and wizards at play in a variety of roles, and having seem each attempt to be blasters, I'm telling you flat out that in the vast majority of circumstances the sorcerer is superior.
The ability to have access to numerous blast shapes spontaneously via multiple spells, the ability to retain access to a wide variety of utility magic while still having unlimited on-demand blasting, and the extra spell slots trumps the little 'oh I can change the elements on the fireball I prepared sixteen times today' trick. Poaching sorcerer bloodlines with a one level dip does nothing to change that.
Perhaps you'd care to form your own argument, rather than simply vaguely referencing the work of someone else?
Gosh, this thread has had a lot of responses. Thanks for all the opinions, it's been educational. I had no idea some of these items existed.
This isn't to say that wizards are bad, just that truly potent wizards only come about in fairly specific circumstances. The player playing the wizard obviously has to be looking for every opportunity to play up their character's strengths, but the rest of the party, and the DM, have to be willing participants in that quest as well. The wizard requires time and opportunity, and neither of those are things entirely in the hands of a single player. Spontaneous casters, on the other hand, while limited in their spell selection, have a lot easier time using it effectively in the field under a wide range of conditions; even clerics and druids get spontaneous casting that allows them a decent amount of flexibility in the field.
Agreed. This is what I've been saying all along. Wizards have enormous potential to be the greatest of casters, but that potential is only exploited in highly specific circumstances, none of which can be guaranteed in a campaign. The DM may not go along with your scouting plan, or may thwart your divinations with counter-spells. Telling a Sorcerer, "Sure, you've got a hundred fireballs, but there's gonna come a day when you face a locked door without Knock, and ooooo you'll be sorry!" is just a lame argument. Of course there will be the occasional barrier the Sorc's list doesn't have a solution for, but that's why he travels with a party full of adventurers with useful skills. No one should be able to handle every situation on his own.
I like to use the toolbox vs multi-tool analogy, since I never watched much MASH.
A sorc is a lot like those fancy electric multi tools. Provided the job requires one of those tools, it makes the job a ton easier. The problem comes when you meet a job not designed for the tool. You can improvise and still get the job done, but it wasn't optimal.
The Wizard is a lot like a toolbox. Sure, the tools are manual and it may be easier to do with an electric multi-tool, but you can still get the job done provided you packed the right tools for the job. The problem comes when you don't know what job you need to prepare for. You can improvise and still get the job done, but it wasn't optimal.
I'll concede to this. It's pretty much true. However, to carry the analogy further, I use my power-tool 50 times more often than the toolbox, since the power-tool does most of what I need (mainly with screws) and does it quickly. In the rare even I need a strange tool that only my toolbox has, its a pain to both find and use. I also find that if I didn't have it, I could easily borrow one from a friend, which is the same point I made in my last paragraph: that's what your party is there for!
There have been lots of people chiming in with "Wizards can scribe scrolls, craft wands, or buy pearls of power to compensate!" Allow me a moment for rebuttal:
1. Trying to prove a class isn't ineffective because certain magic items can make it effective proves it is inherently ineffective.
2. It has also been proven through many posts here that similar items exist for Sorcerers (rings of spell knowledge, mneumonic robes, etc). On an even playing field, we are left with the same problem between the classes. The Wizard now has more spells, but the Sorcerer also has more known, so it makes little difference.
3. What should matter is who is more powerful naked in a cell? The answer is hands-down a Sorcerer, who is not only more powerful in the buff but also has no need for a spellbook or component pouch, both of which a wizard needs to cast ANY spells at all (and worse if he had Arcane Bond before getting naked).
When PF first came out the Wizard held an undeniable edge. These days, I think the balance of power has swung pretty hard in the other direction, especially as you move into higher levels.
The fact of the matter is that pretty much every book has increased sorcerer power.
This. The problem still exists IMHO in a PHB game only, but if you let the scope of Pathfinder products in, the Wizard is a pointless class. What with the new items, feats, and racial traits, the Sorcerer can have so many spells known at his disposal that the disparity between the classes becomes non-existent in the Sorcerer's favor. The Wizard has received little love from the newer material compared to the Sorcerer. (The bonus spell known from Advanced Races is particularly horrific)
In the end, the wizard as is suffers greatly under the oppression of the sorcerer. I am not "pro-Sorcerer" here, I think it's a travesty. I wish there was a way to balance the two, where wizards and sorcerers could remain unique classes but not with such a disparity between them. Perhaps a different spell list is the answer, which someone suggested, and which 4e did. Perhaps a different casting system. This was, as some may note, the actual subject of the OP: how to fix the problem.
@Peter Stewart
I have played this build and yes it's the best blaster build. The reason i don't explain it to you is a)i have explained one too many times already, i am somewhat bored to do that again and b)you are either lying about having played blasters or you haven't played them at high levels (up to 15-ish) because you don't seem to understand the problems a blaster (and specifically a sorcerer blaster) has and which of those problems this build solves.
@Tertiary
Defeine what you mean by playing the game properly. You mean no house rules?
On the specific issue, blaster sorcerer and blaster wizard, no i don't think there is anything the sorcerer can buy to catch up to the wizard (i think, i admit that i haven't researched blasters on the last year or so, although i checked from time to time).
As i say above, i have played this wizard and yes it works pretty much exactly as advertized.
Please explain your last paragraph, give me some examples. (the only one i can think of is waiting for your clones to be completed)
Gosh, this thread has had a lot of responses. Thanks for all the opinions, it's been educational. I had no idea some of these items existed.
This isn't to say that wizards are bad, just that truly potent wizards only come about in fairly specific circumstances. The player playing the wizard obviously has to be looking for every opportunity to play up their character's strengths, but the rest of the party, and the DM, have to be willing participants in that quest as well. The wizard requires time and opportunity, and neither of those are things entirely in the hands of a single player. Spontaneous casters, on the other hand, while limited in their spell selection, have a lot easier time using it effectively in the field under a wide range of conditions; even clerics and druids get spontaneous casting that allows them a decent amount of flexibility in the field.Agreed. This is what I've been saying all along. Wizards have enormous potential to be the greatest of casters, but that potential is only exploited in highly specific circumstances, none of which can be guaranteed in a campaign. The DM may not go along with your scouting plan, or may thwart your divinations with counter-spells. Telling a Sorcerer, "Sure, you've got a hundred fireballs, but there's gonna come a day when you face a locked door without Knock, and ooooo you'll be sorry!" is just a lame argument. Of course there will be the occasional barrier the Sorc's list doesn't have a solution for, but that's why he travels with a party full of adventurers with useful skills. No one should be able to handle every situation on his own.
...I like to use the toolbox vs multi-tool analogy, since I never watched much MASH.
A sorc is a lot like those fancy electric multi tools. Provided the job requires one of those tools, it makes the job a ton easier. The problem comes when you meet a job not designed for the tool. You can improvise and still get the job done, but it wasn't optimal.
The
I generally prefer sorcerers, but the wizard is well-balanced with it:
- Heighten spell/preferred spell is really powerful. If you're in a cell, just prepare read magic heightened from memory, then convert as needed. Taking it 3 times is generally enough to get escape or the most often used battle spells in my experience.
- Many good spells like dimension door have no material components. If you're still worried, take eschew materials.
- Wizards get higher level spells earlier. This is HUGE and the only way to make some builds possible in the usual max level hames.
- Wizards get the useful craft and metamagic bonus feats. That helps a lot.
- Pearl of powers are a lot cheaper than the equivalent items for a sorcerer.
- The wizard can get ALL spells, not just many like the sorcerer.
- Fast Study is really powerful and reduces the supposed study time problem of the wizard significantly.
- Wizards can adapt during the course of a campaign. Sorcerers only can do this in a limited way.
In the end it's really a matter of playstyle :-)
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While i agree that comparing builds isn't the same as comparing classes, but when you use such drastic house rules (for both sorcerers and wizards) your opinion on both of them will be very different than the majority of the people.
And you can't really dismiss my point that wizards are better at metamagic because of metamagic rods when you don't allow metamagic rods.
So, why is spontaneous metamagic better than prepared metamagic now?
There is no difference between thinking you will need X metamagic, and thinking you would need Y spell. If I am using metamagic, chances are I have my metamagic planned out for what kind of spells I want to be slinging. That is, I don't need to apply metamagic spontaneously. In fact, I can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't have a metamagic'd spell prepared where I would feel I needed one. But then again, I always prepare my spells with metamagic on them. Rods are also a huge factor, as well as Spell Perfection. Wizards also have more options because of the bonus feats opening up access to more metamagics. Bloodline feats are cool, but as far as builds go, the best feats in the bloodlines (usually Improved Initiative or Spell Focus) are feats that I really need to already have by lvl 7 when I get my bloodline feat.
@Peter Stewart
I have played this build and yes it's the best blaster build. The reason i don't explain it to you is a)i have explained one too many times already, i am somewhat bored to do that again and b)you are either lying about having played blasters or you haven't played them at high levels (up to 15-ish) because you don't seem to understand the problems a blaster (and specifically a sorcerer blaster) has and which of those problems this build solves.
Funny story. Currently playing two games in the 15-16 range. The overwhelming majority of my Pathfinder experience is in the 12-16 range. I've also built out something on the order of a dozen high level wizards and sorcerers in that range in the last couple months for various reasons.
Defeine what you mean by playing the game properly.
Not ignoring limitations on spell access in a coherent world (who sells / gives you access to high level spells), playing NPCs in such a way that they don't bend over for PCs, playing from low level and developing characters organically instead of having a flat build that cannot be deviated from (and especially begins at high level, rather than at level 1).
Dealing with obsticals that arise in the course of a campaign instead of having everything bend over for you. For instance, in an adventure path we've been playing had me, the party wizard, cut off from civilization and other wizards from levels 5-10. Let me tell you, that was a rough time. Subsequently we spent most of a level inside a dungeon with forbidence (taken from Dungeon) and most of another deep underground also cut off from outside resources (like people to sell spells / give access to spellbooks).
Please explain your last paragraph, give me some examples. (the only one i can think of is waiting for your clones to be completed)
Time to research new spells (1,000gp + 1 week per spell level), time to craft magic items, time to scribe spells into a spellbook, time to scribe spells from spellbooks into a blessed book, time to work out an arrangement with high level wizards for access to spells from their collections, research on enemies and major plot points, and so forth.
See? This is why Ultimate Magus rocks! :-)
I'll concede to this. It's pretty much true. However, to carry the analogy further, I use my power-tool 50 times more often than the toolbox, since the power-tool does most of what I need (mainly with screws) and does it quickly. In the rare even I need a strange tool that only my toolbox has, its a pain to both find and use. I also find that if I didn't have it, I could easily borrow one from a friend, which is the same point I made in my last paragraph: that's what your party is there for!
Then you need to re-examine how you're packing your toolbox :)
Seriously though, the big advantage of a Wizard is completely nullified without knowledge. If you're GM isn't allowing you to properly prepare, then a Sorc is the better option hands-down. But, a properly prepared Wizard beats a Sorc out, more often than not.
3. What should matter is who is more powerful naked in a cell?
I don't even know how to respond to that :)
However, IF that is truly a major concern for you, then there are options available to counter that. Eschew Materials and the Spellbinder Archetype is the only things you need to prepare and cast spells naked in a cell. You could also pick the spell mastery feat if you don't want to go the Spellbinder route.
- Heighten spell/preferred spell is really powerful. If you're in a cell, just prepare read magic heightened from memory, then convert as needed. Taking it 3 times is generally enough to get escape or the most often used battle spells in my experience.
- Many good spells like dimension door have no material components. If you're still worried, take eschew materials.
- Wizards get higher level spells earlier. This is HUGE and the only way to make some builds possible in the usual max level hames.
- Wizards get the useful craft and metamagic bonus feats. That helps a lot.
- Pearl of powers are a lot cheaper than the equivalent items for a sorcerer.
- The wizard can get ALL spells, not just many like the sorcerer.
- Fast Study is really powerful and reduces the supposed study time problem of the wizard significantly.
- Wizards can adapt during the course of a campaign. Sorcerers only can do this in a limited way.
As a side note.. With preferred spell, you can swap out a spell slot. You don't need to prepare read magic first. And, you technically don't need to add heightened to read magic as you can prepare lower spells into higher slots even without the feat. (good option for spellbinder swapping where you do need a memorized spell to swap)
I absolutely agree with the HUGE advantage of a faster spell progression. I played a wizard with a single dip rogue once where I played my career one level behind my potential. It was the most frustrating experience I've had (lets just say he met a timely death in favor of a full wizard). IMO this is the biggest reason to go wizard.
3. What should matter is who is more powerful naked in a cell? The answer is hands-down a Sorcerer, who is not only more powerful in the buff but also has no need for a spellbook or component pouch, both of which a wizard needs to cast ANY spells at all (and worse if he had Arcane Bond before getting naked).
I'm sorry, but using this logic the best martial character is the monk. The wizard's spellbook is an Achilles Heel, but it does not invalidate the whole class.
3. What should matter is who is more powerful naked in a cell? The answer is hands-down a Sorcerer, who is not only more powerful in the buff but also has no need for a spellbook or component pouch, both of which a wizard needs to cast ANY spells at all (and worse if he had Arcane Bond before getting naked).I'm sorry, but using this logic the best martial character is the monk. The wizard's spellbook is an Achilles Heel, but it does not invalidate the whole class.
It may not invalidate the class, but it is a notable factor and one that many "wizards are absolute gods" people tend to forget about. Wizards rely heavily on external stuff, and often very specific stuff, ranging from their spellbook to scrolls and wands to less tangible things like time and favorable circumstances. When those are readily available, the wizard shines; when any one or more of those things is not available, the wizard is often stuck in a very weak position without many tools to get out of it by himself. The sorcerer may not have the raw capacity and potential of a wizard, but it's a lot harder to truly back a sorcerer into a corner they can't get out of, largely because the sorcerer is a lot more self reliant and diversified in their available choices. If magic fails, they have a high charisma to fall back on; bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy are powerful tools, and use magic device means that sorcerers don't rely nearly as much on having precisely the right magic item in order to function.
Ultimately it comes down to cost vs benefit in an actual campaign. As options like the witch, the bard, and the sorcerer become more common, it is important to target what you want from the class. Wizards are still the best wizards, but not every campaign requires a full blown wizard capable of moving planets given enough time and resources. Other arcane casters can often bring enough of the truly useful tricks for that campaign with lower costs and lower complexities. It's the same reason that warlocks and warmages were popular in 3.5; they may have lacked raw versatility, but they did what they needed to do well, and that's all that really matters in most circumstances.
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To the toolbox comment earlier, packing it well works to a point, but after you get more than a couple of dozen tools, no amount of clever packing is going to overcome the sheer amount of stuff in there. This is the problem that wizards often run into; to be effective, 1)the player must be know not only what the character could have, but also what the character actually has potential access to, and 2) the character must be able to access it in a reasonable time frame in game and often in scene. This is fairly easy for a while until you start collecting dozens of scrolls and wands and pearls of power and potions and multiple other magic items. A skilled player can manage it, but it still takes a lot of time and effort both in game and out of game to do it successfully, and that is often a big turnoff for a lot of people, since the amount of time required increases with the number of toys you give your wizard.
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I find the best way to play prepared spellcasters is to spread out your slots between different but equally devestating spells for varying circumstances. The exact right spell for the situation is always better than two or 3 close ones. This is a luxury only prepared spellcasters can enjoy.
As an example the three main configurations my Kingmaker Conjuration (teleportation) 10 wizard spell has:
Standard Spells:
0: Read Magic, Message, Mage Hand, Detect Magic
1: Comprehend Languages, Grease, Liberating Command, Vanish, Mage Armourx2, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil
2: Glitterdust, Create Pit, Rope Trick, Flaming Sphere , Mirror Image, Invisibility, False Life
3: Resist Energy-Communal, Fly, Battering Blast, Invisibility Sphere, Slow, Dispel Magic
4: Enervation, Heightened Dazing Snapdragon Fireworksx2, Emergency Force Sphere, Arcane Eye, Resilient Sphere
5: Teleportx3, Hungry Pit
Siege (In Progress)
0: Read Magic, Prestigitation, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound
1: Greasex2, Liberating Command, Vanish, Mage Armourx2, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil
2: Glitterdust, Create Pit, Flaming Spherex2 , Mirror Image, Invisibility, False Life
3: Fireballx3, Fly, Stinking Cloud, Slow, Wind Wall
4: Black Tentaclesx2, Heightened Dazing Snapdragon Fireworks, Emergency Force Sphere, Ice storm, Resilient Sphere
5:Wall of Force, Teleport, Life Bubble, Cloud kill
Scouting
Standard Spells:
0: Read Magic, Prestigitation, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound
1: Comprehend Languages, Grease, Magic Missile, Vanish, Mage Armourx2, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil
2: Glitterdust, Create Pit, Rope Trick, Flaming Sphere , Mirror Image, Resist Energy, False Life
3: Fireball, Fly, Battering Blast, Stinking Cloud, Slow, Dispel Magic
4: Scryingx2, Phantom Chariot, Emergency Force Sphere, Secure Shelter, Resilient Sphere
5:Wall of Force, Teleportx2, Telekinesis
As you can see you want to cover as much ground as possible with your options. And have emergency force sphere. Always.
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@Peter Stewart
I have played this build and yes it's the best blaster build. The reason i don't explain it to you is a)i have explained one too many times already, i am somewhat bored to do that again and b)you are either lying about having played blasters or you haven't played them at high levels (up to 15-ish) because you don't seem to understand the problems a blaster (and specifically a sorcerer blaster) has and which of those problems this build solves.@Tertiary
Defeine what you mean by playing the game properly. You mean no house rules?
On the specific issue, blaster sorcerer and blaster wizard, no i don't think there is anything the sorcerer can buy to catch up to the wizard (i think, i admit that i haven't researched blasters on the last year or so, although i checked from time to time).
As i say above, i have played this wizard and yes it works pretty much exactly as advertized.
Please explain your last paragraph, give me some examples. (the only one i can think of is waiting for your clones to be completed)
You made the example of what the wizard need to buy to be up on par and maybe surpass the sorcerer as a bllaster: Buying a level as a sorcerer.
I fail to see how you can claim than a blaster wizard is better than a blaster sorcerer if to be that he need to become a sorcerer.
You made the example of what the wizard need to buy to be up on par and maybe surpass the sorcerer as a bllaster: Buying a level as a sorcerer.
I fail to see how you can claim than a blaster wizard is better than a blaster sorcerer if to be that he need to become a sorcerer.
To be fair, do you consider a rogue who dips a level of fighter for martial proficiency a fighter? Didn't think so.
If anything this helps the wizards case.. He looks at the sorc.. Say's: "Hey.. I can take what you got and make it better."
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You made the example of what the wizard need to buy to be up on par and maybe surpass the sorcerer as a bllaster: Buying a level as a sorcerer.
I fail to see how you can claim than a blaster wizard is better than a blaster sorcerer if to be that he need to become a sorcerer.
To be fair, do you consider a rogue who dips a level of fighter for martial proficiency a fighter? Didn't think so.
If anything this helps the wizards case.. He looks at the sorc.. Say's: "Hey.. I can take what you got and make it better."
I consider him a multiclass, not a rogue.
Taking a level dip is saying "power X of the class is front loaded, I get it a first level and it work regardless of whatever other class I mix with it so I take it."I say that a wizard taking a level dip in another class is a wizard, I say that he is someone multiclassign to pick powers.
What do you call a Mystic theurge?
A wizard?
A cleric?
Or a Mystic theurge?
The 3 and 3.5 version of the game have already proved that front loaded powers are a bad idea, I would say that this is simply the continuation of a trend.
You made the example of what the wizard need to buy to be up on par and maybe surpass the sorcerer as a bllaster: Buying a level as a sorcerer.
I fail to see how you can claim than a blaster wizard is better than a blaster sorcerer if to be that he need to become a sorcerer.
To be fair, do you consider a rogue who dips a level of fighter for martial proficiency a fighter? Didn't think so.
If anything this helps the wizards case.. He looks at the sorc.. Say's: "Hey.. I can take what you got and make it better."
Better is subjective. Sorcerers will typically tend to be better at single purpose builds like blasters because of their flexibility in the immediate moment and better options for using metamagic without having to rely on external stuff to pull it off. Metamagic rods, pearls of power, and similar stuff is great, but they are external, and they do tie up resources to do what a sorcerer can do without such objects. If you want raw power, wizards are always going to have an edge due to the (incredibly silly in my opinion) delayed spell level gains the sorcerer has to deal with. As far as blasters are concerned, its about a tie. Each can be equally strong if they stick to what they can do and not get too fussy about what they can't; wizards will have an edge in power, sorcerers will have an edge in ease of adjusting in the middle of a combat.
I consider him a multiclass, not a rogue.
Taking a level dip is saying "power X of the class is front loaded, I get it a first level and it work regardless of whatever other class I mix with it so I take it."I say that a wizard taking a level dip in another class is a wizard, I say that he is someone multiclassign to pick powers.
What do you call a Mystic theurge?
A wizard?
A cleric?
Or a Mystic theurge?The 3 and 3.5 version of the game have already proved that front loaded powers are a bad idea, I would say that this is simply the continuation of a trend.
What I mean is from a roleplaying perspective... In character as a rogue with a one level of fighter doesn't describe himself as "Bilbo the multiclass rogue fighter" He calls himself "Bilbo the Rogue".
I call a Mystic Theurge a Mystic Theurge. It's a specific PrC, in character I would describe myself as such.
So, as a wizard with a dip of either rogue or sorc or whatever... I still call myself a wizard.
But yeah, I totally agree that the frontloading of powers is a bad idea.
Better is subjective. Sorcerers will typically tend to be better at single purpose builds like blasters because of their flexibility in the immediate moment and better options for using metamagic without having to rely on external stuff to pull it off. Metamagic rods, pearls of power, and similar stuff is great, but they are external, and they do tie up resources to do what a sorcerer can do without such objects. If you want raw power, wizards are always going to have an edge due to the (incredibly silly in my opinion) delayed spell level gains the sorcerer has to deal with. As far as blasters are concerned, its about a tie. Each can be equally strong if they stick to what they can do and not get too fussy about what they can't; wizards will have an edge in power, sorcerers will have an edge in ease of adjusting in the middle of a combat.
I agree that sorcerers tend to be better at single purpose builds. It's inherent in the class design for that to be the case. I was just drawing attention to the very specific admixture wizard blaster build that uses a sorc dip to get greater damage capability then the sorcerer can alone.
The admixture wizard without a sorc dip is no slouch either... possibly on par with a sorc. And, its a tough debate on whether or not to delay your casting progression to get that extra damage boost, or to keep the progression to get higher level spell slots sooner.
Regarding the sorc having a delayed progression. I think that if they did have an equal progression to the wizard, the sorc would be hands down the better caster. As it stands, both are about equal in power, with IMO, the wizard having a slight edge.
Regarding the sorc having a delayed progression. I think that if they did have an equal progression to the wizard, the sorc would be hands down the better caster. As it stands, both are about equal in power, with IMO, the wizard having a slight edge.
I don't see the delayed progression being anything more than a unnecessary administrative headache. The limits on spells known do far more to balance out the class, and the delayed progression just seems punitive for the sake of being punitive. The sorcerer wouldn't be particularly more powerful with the standard progression, though I would still like to see something like spell points or words of power be used for spontaneous casters in general rather than the vancian system, if for no other reason than to make it clear that, no really, sorcerers are not intended to be wizards and wizards are not intended to be sorcerers. All the delayed progression does effectively is limit the use of prestige classes, and that doesn't seem either fair or necessary given how Paizo handles prestige classes in general. The wizards would still be better at nonfocused builds and use in utility spells in general.
Before sorcerers, it was simply assumed that the party would cover for the wizard so that he could get that time; with wizards being the only arcane caster, there was little choice. Now, with other options commonly available, it's not an automatic that the party and DM are going to supply the wizard the time, nor is it automatic that the arcane caster is going to be a wizard. Your entire position relies on the sorcerer trying to use the spells in the same way a wizard does, and that's always going to lead to the wizard having an edge. The sorcerer's strength is that they can take the same spells, and use them in often completely different ways; this doesn't make them stronger than the wizard, just different, and when approached in this manner, not weaker.Please explain how a sorcerer can use any spell any differently than a wizard can. He can apply metamagic on the fly, which is nice for blast spells and such, but it really doesn't help utility.
Persistent Dominate
Heightened DominateExtended Fly
Extended Infernal healing
Disruptive Anything-that-has-an-effect-even-on-successful-save
Piercing Banishment / Dismissal
Reach Prot from Evil (To suppress that dominate effect from outside of the 'disruptive, step up, spell breaker' fighters AoO range)
Still Animate Rope / Dim door / teleport remains a constant favourite for escapes.
Silent ANYTHING when you are on a recon mission.
Still EVERYTHING when you are tied up.
Extended Mage Armour (Monks love this one)
Widen Blacklight
Wonder how an Umbral wall of Ice works to disuade pursuit. It's just darkness! Run. Run. Run. DONK. Oww... my nose.
Yes... most of those are 'combat utility' spells. None are 'blast' spells. Everyone seems to want to balance this game based on combat performance though so why not. Odds are some of them are not even legal combos, but it's late and I'm very tired. I think you get the idea though.
Just because most immediately think "Maximize Explosion" and "Empower KaBoom" when they think of Meta's, doesn't mean that is all their is.
Please explain how a sorcerer can use any spell any differently than a wizard can. He can apply metamagic on the fly, which is nice for blast spells and such, but it really doesn't help utilityApplying metamagic on the fly is used for being able to manage your spells known more effectively.
If I have Heighten or Persistent Spell then I can continue to use, say, Confusion as my preferred AoE will save spell rather than going for Mass Suggestion. This leaves me free to take something else as one of my sixth level spells know giving greater versatility in my list.
Sorcerers also make far greater use of Quicken Spell than Wizards which is great for in combat buff spells. Getting Mirror Image up at the satrt of a battle and dropping your prefered control or blast spell is a significant bonus. Yes Wizards can memorise Quickened spells but that really cuts into your available high level slots when you have to pick everything beforehand. You could buy a Quicken Rod but those things are exepnsive.
Spontaneous use of meta magic is a huge boon the sorcerers flexibility, I'll grant you that. However, I've never found it difficult to know exactly what metamagic I wanted to prepare with my wizard. I know I'm going to want a Reach Telekinetic Charge, an Extended Mage Armor, or a Silent Major Image.
With my one blast spell Preferred Spell (Dragon's Breath) I can spontaneously add whatever metamagic I wish without increasing the casting time.
The time bump is another downside to a sorcs metamagic use. With a summon focused conjurer, if I want to maximise the number of summons, I can do so without having to waste 2 rounds to add the metamagic. Which is similar to things like a reach enlarge person.
I guess what I'm saying is yes, it is a nice feature, but it's not that much better than what a wizard can do with his metamagic if he knows what he wants. Which is the whole point of this topic: Spell preparation is indeed good, provided you know what to prepare for.
A lot of people don't seem to want to acknowledge the sorcerer's biggest issue.
A level 5 conjurer knows two third level spells. Let's say they're SM III and Haste. He has two slots if he's an idiot, but in reality he almost certainly has 3 because no one builds a wizard with less than 16 int at level 5. One of his slots must be SM III because of specialization. The other two can be Haste, or a Haste and SM III. Or he can spend money on a third spell in his book. If he has a bonded item he has a fourth slot that can be used spontaneously for anything in his spellbook.
A level 5 sorcerer has no third level spells at all.
A level 6 conjurer knows 4 third level spells and has 4 slots including the specialty and bonus slots. Let's say he added Fly and Fireball because I remember seeing an errata that he no longer has to take half his spells in his specialty school. If he has a bonded object he has 5 slots.
A level 6 sorcerer has one third level spell known. If he uses his human class bonus he still has only one third level spell known because it can't be used for top level spells. He has 4 slots, same as the wizard, but if he picked Haste as his spell known they're all haste. He maxes out at 4 hastes, one higher than the wizard, but if the wizard were a transmuter he, too, could have prepared 4 hastes. On the other hand the wizard can also prepare things that aren't haste. Sometimes you have a problem that's better solved by a Lantern Archon or Celestial Dire Bat or a fireball or fly on the party fighter and the sorcerer has no options except haste.
Every level between level 3 and level 18 inclusive is like either level 5 or 6 for whatever the highest spell level the wizard has. That's painful.
Now, bard/inquisitor/summoner versus magus casting is more favorable to the spontaneous casters. They get 2 spells known up front and gain new levels on the same schedule.
3 things here:
1) Where is this errata? To my knowledge you must take one of your new free spells in your specialization school.
2) Cypher Script reduces the cost for new spells and effectively doubled the amount of spells you can have in your book, as well as reduces the cost. In games where the DM audits wizard resources (which imo should be all games) this is amazing.
3) Blessed Books are your friend, combined with the Cypher Script feat you get about 2000 pages of spells that cost you nothing beyond that feat and the 12,000 gp investment (unless you craft it yourself, costing you another feat).
The taxation on wizards is about the only thing that makes them worse than sorcerers as far as classes go.
The wizard is the superior class, however Sorcerers boast more damage and specialization.
Compare it to rangers and paladins. Paladins get a lot more damage, are much more durable, and a lot easier to play (mechanically). Rangers have so many more options and require a lot more skill to use effectively, making them the superior class, but only when piloted by players who know how to use them.
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A level 6 sorcerer has one third level spell known. .. He has 4 slots, same as the wizard, but if he picked Haste as his spell known they're all haste.
Actually, if you play your sorcerer this way then I would have to say you are doing it wrong.
Sure, he only knows haste at 3rd level. But he can use his empowered burning hands, or his elemental (cold) scorching ray, etc. with those slots.
He can also simply use those slots to cast lower level spells as well. So if he has already used his level 2 slots to cast invisibilty 6 times, he can use his level 3 slots to cast it another 4 times.
So, for example, if you wanted to build a sorcerer who was really good at casting grease, then with a Level 6 16 CHA sorcerer you could cast grease 17 times in one day.
Wizards can do this too by preparing a spell in a higher level slot, but they rarely seem to.
Peet
This whole thing reminds me of monopoly.
Monopoly is probably one of the best board games ever made. It's my personal favorite.
Yet most people I know don't like Monopoly. They claim it's too slow, or too long, or too imbalanced. 99% further questioning leads to the revelation that the reason they don't like it is because they haven't been playing by the rules.
Seriously, most people don't know the real rules to Monopoly. They play based on something their parents taught them, who were taught by their parents, and so forth, and never opening a rulebook.
When played properly, by the rules, its a wonderful game.
It seems to me much of the confusion here is a lack of proper understanding of the rules. When properly enforced, the sorcerer and wizard are more or less balanced. (As balanced as anything gets in d20)
I still prefer sorcerers mechanically, and I suppose since the Sage bloodline exists I can't complain too much. I also still think when the chips are down the sorcerer has an edge over the wizard too.
But all this arguing has brought up a lot of neglected rules and new rules I'd never heard of. Taken together it makes a strong case. Thanks everyone for responding, I've heard all I need.
Of course you can keep fighting if you like as well. :)
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Re: Metamagic rods.
I really wish that the Wizards could use the rods to memorize the metamagic spells. It would balance the full round casting bit for the sorcerer.
Completely different item.
I fail to see how paying the level difference against having the metamagic effect at no spell level cost will be on par with using the normal casting time against it being a full round action.
I'm sure you've heard this before, leave a spell slot or 2 open higher lvls start doing scrying spell so you can cast spells for certain fights over foutter fights. Wizards are preperation because they can cast any number of spells, not like a druid or cleric, but you know spells that can shut down, get rid of them, and kill em dead.
One thing I hate about prepared casters is the number of spells they have to prepare per day. Wish they could cast as much as a spontcaster.
I'm sure you've heard this before, leave a spell slot or 2 open higher lvls start doing scrying spell so you can cast spells for certain fights over foutter fights. Wizards are preperation because they can cast any number of spells, not like a druid or cleric, but you know spells that can shut down, get rid of them, and kill em dead.
One thing I hate about prepared casters is the number of spells they have to prepare per day. Wish they could cast as much as a spontcaster.
The problem with scrying spells is that you are basically using magic to figure out what magic you need in the adventure, draining available spells for said adventure unless you can do it the previous day. It still comes down to time and lots of forewarning. Prepared casters are heavily reliant on both time. The other thing you mention, the limited number of spell slots they have available, is a big factor as well. Many of those "ideal" spells are reliant on caster level and simply don't work on scrolls or wands unless you really have the coin to make them with a caster level of higher than the minimum, leaving those few slots you do very precious indeed. Scrying spells in particular tend to be heavily caster level reliant, meaning that they pretty much require spell slots to be effective; this can be a problem if you are trying to use them the same day you need to deal with whatever you are scrying.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Metamagic rods.
I really wish that the Wizards could use the rods to memorize the metamagic spells. It would balance the full round casting bit for the sorcerer.
Completely different item.
I fail to see how paying the level difference against having the metamagic effect at no spell level cost will be on par with using the normal casting time against it being a full round action.
My logic is that the Wizard with the feat has to memorize spells with the feat. The sorcerer with the feat can cast the spell on the fly as a full round action.
With the rod, the wizard can now add metamagic on the fly with no need to prep, while the sorcerer... casts the spell as a full round action.
If the wizard had to memorize with the rod, then both the wizard and the sorcerer receive the same net benefit, metamagic without the added level bump.