Because there's no way to heal yourself nonmagically besides rest (which takes FOREVER), PF, like 3e, requires that GP=HP. That's just how it works.
Because there's no way to heal yourself nonmagically besides rest (which takes FOREVER), PF, like 3e, requires that GP=HP. That's just how it works.
BTW, it's approximately 3*GP=HP.
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So we've got a complaining grasshopper and an industrious ant, straight out of Aesop's fables.
The guy who always comes equipped with his own healing and buffing items and spends his own gold getting them should be rewarded for his foresight. Penalize the whiners who didn't buy their own happy healing sticks instead - they're an excessive drain on party resources.
Using a wand like that will burn through the 50 charges in no time. So not really an issue.
.............Um, wow
No sense of humor, just pontification
If you were joking then I apologize. Though I think I have a wonderful sense of humor and your joke just wasn't funny :) As far as pontification... thats a bit harsh, but you could be right.
I like to hear myself type... is that a thing?
Well, it kind of makes sense to put a limit on magical healing per day.Sounds like healing surges.
With this sort of house rules (so assuming not using 4e-style healing), you'd very quickly have adventurers who have to stop after only one or two encounters. They're not going to adventure with a quarter of their hit points, as that's suicidal behavior.
This. Limiting out of combat healing just means players are going to stop fighting and rest after two combat because they can't heal up after that. They will take every measure they can to find a safe place and wait. Sure you can railroad them into fighting more, but then you kill them. Are you trying to kill your players?
Just because it's magic doesn't omit the possibility of having counter-balancing consequences. If the group wants to introduce a houserule that makes magical healing less of a strategic resource and more of a tactical one, I'd find it quite interesting. Hell, you could even say that magical healing makes you ravenously hungry and the person needs to consume twice as much food as normally required if they've been magically healed that day... not the first time it's been done, either.
Claxon, saying 'Magic' doesn't inherently imply that the magic system entirely divorces itself from consequences or reality. It can, of course, but the word itself doesn't imply that it must. Also, being dismissive (to the extent of one-word responses and even abandoning punctuation) hardly ever convinces anyone.
Did you not see the Penny Arcade comic it's linked to? It's supposed to be a humorous statement.
Perhaps it's not translating well through the internet.
Dont most Modules/Dungeons/ect assume the party is at full health before each combat? I mean, isnt the game built around the fact that you can use Out of Combat heals.
What other way can you heal between encounters?
A. You have a character devoted to healing. Thats his thing. All he does. That might be fun for some. But in most groups that sounds like a horrible bore.
B. Your party rest ... ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME.
"Well boys we beat the guards at the front gate... lets go find a nice cave, rest up, and come back tomorrow... sure hope they dont post more guards by then!"
C. You buy cheap magic items to heal in between fights.
Honestly... Does this really bother DMs and Players? I dont see why its a big deal.
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I disagree completely. The GM can easily set a quick pace to the game to make it so that you can't heal up to full between every combat by making some sort of time pressure or bringing the fight to them. Thats the easiest way to do it. But when you say "You have all the time in the world to get to the next group of enemies, but you can't heal yourself with that time" all I hear is "Screw you". You want to make things tougher, more challenging fight with either more creatures or higher CRs or both. You want them to have a good chance to lose to the BBEG? Force them confront him on a time frame where they can't waste any time so they can't spend 6 minutes healing 5.5 hp per round per person. If you tell me I can't heal anymore and I'm at 50% health and were not done, I'm going to walk out of wherever were at, go rest someplace, heal up until everyone is back to snuff. Doing otherwise is silly.
To those suggesting a max per day, would you put such a cap on the number of potions or scrolls that could be used in a day? They cost more, and are one-use items, but they have the same effect if the player or group has enough of them. The wand costs them money, and while it's cheaper "per charge" than a single-use item, it is still resources they are spending to use spells from wands. Do you limit an archer to how many masterwork arrows they can use per day, if they spend money to buy 200 of them that each deal 1d8+1 damage to the enemy?Well, it kind of makes sense to put a limit on magical healing per day. There's only so much magical screwing around you can have done to you before your biology starts to go on strike. Even mundane medicines have "bad effects" if you use them too often or for too long. You can't just go popping acetaminophen like Tic-Tacs for too long before your liver hands in its resignation papers. Maybe something like a soft-cap... you can be healed up to your max HP per day + your total Con score as a given, but after that, you must roll a con check to see if the "overdose" of magical healing starts having detrimental affects on your physiology (ie. leaves you fatigued, sickened, or staggered).
No it doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if magic in Pathfinder's version of fantasy listed possible side affects, but it doesn't.
Please consult a high level Cleric before taking Cure Light Wounds. Side effects can be nausea, bad breath, dry mouth, sudden and complete heart failure, brain explosion, or a sudden tear in time and space.
*Note, nice music and people having fun on the beach shown in the background.
That all depends on how you write/balance the encounters. It takes more BRAINS to play if you can't rely on a wand of healing to get you out of jail. Some of the best encounters we have played have been when the party resources are limited and they have to work together to a greater degree.
Wands are too common and cheap, they also encourage lazy gaming.
1.You ever check the priced on a 4th level wand?
2. Wands have a lower price because they are limited by ease of use.
Example:
Potions can be used by anyone, but they cost a lot most.
Scrolls can only be used by certain classes without UMD, but they have no limit to the spell level so they are in between the price per use of wands and potions.
What is "lazy gaming"?
PS: The party should be working together anyway. If they are not and still overcoming encounters the GM might want to boost the lethalness of his tactics. A wand has nothing to do with that problem.
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Sounds like Catholicism. You can use the wand, but you must be guilt ridden afterwards and that's going to make you use it less. *glares at you* Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary! Hit me again!
Old school D&D had hitpoints as an "adventure resource". Today's Pathfinder (since D&D 3.0/3.5) and the forum by and large treat hitpoints as an "encounter resource" only. It's hard to cross that bridge in thinking for some people. It was for me.
Excellent explanation.
There are other ways to hinder the party than reducing their hit points.
If it is your intention to hinder the party more effectively, you should look those other ways up.
The party should be working together anyway. If they are not and still overcoming encounters the GM might want to boost the lethalness of his tactics. A wand has nothing to do with that problem.It does in a fashion.
Some people (players and GMs) don't like every encounter to be "lethal". However, the wand of CLW turns most(*) "non-lethal" combat encounters (there are many in PFS and the APs) into "trivial" encounters. I believe it is making some encounters trivial that people (the OP and his one player as an example) don't like.
Old school D&D had hitpoints as an "adventure resource". Today's Pathfinder (since D&D 3.0/3.5) and the forum by and large treat hitpoints as an "encounter resource" only. It's hard to cross that bridge in thinking for some people. It was for me. I finally crossed it and as Evil Lincoln said, I just plan on people being full hitpoints at the start of every encounter.
It's definitely a different way of thinking.
(*) Conditions like poison, fatigue, etc. still have merit in making "non-lethal" encounters "non-trivial" as well. For the OP, apply these conditions a bit more and it will help you I think.
Yeah I agree thinking about it, I crossed the bridge as you say today after last nights session. It all comes down to the player planning ahead. The wand was a bit of pain as I was seeing it (wrongly) as an exploit. BUT, when I think about it the player paid for it out of his gold, he's tracking the uses and if it runs out so be it, its being used in the correct way as far as I can see. I think the other player is just wishing he had one and maybe thinks the other player should be sharing the healing rather than using it on himself (he does use the odd one here and there on other members so hes not being completely selfish, besides he's a heavy hitter and without him the party would suffer so they kind of need him anyway). That in my mind is something the party needs to sort out themselves. I just needed to make sure I wasn't missing something before I let it carry on. My mind is at ease now.
Thanks all :)
The party should be working together anyway. If they are not and still overcoming encounters the GM might want to boost the lethalness of his tactics. A wand has nothing to do with that problem.It does in a fashion.
Some people (players and GMs) don't like every encounter to be "lethal". However, the wand of CLW turns most(*) "non-lethal" combat encounters (there are many in PFS and the APs) into "trivial" encounters. I believe it is making some encounters trivial that people (the OP and his one player as an example) don't like.
Old school D&D had hitpoints as an "adventure resource". Today's Pathfinder (since D&D 3.0/3.5) and the forum by and large treat hitpoints as an "encounter resource" only. It's hard to cross that bridge in thinking for some people. It was for me. I finally crossed it and as Evil Lincoln said, I just plan on people being full hitpoints at the start of every encounter.
It's definitely a different way of thinking.
(*) Conditions like poison, fatigue, etc. still have merit in making "non-lethal" encounters "non-trivial" as well. For the OP, apply these conditions a bit more and it will help you I think.
No it doesn't. If anything it is lazy GM'ing. Something as simple as giving the bad guys 75% instead of 50 of the base die for hit points can help with that. That way the players feel secure going into a fight, and you avoid the 15 minute work day. At the same time can challenge the party like you want to.
PS:Upping the hit points is just one example of a way to make up for the wand.
The big thing that makes it harder in my opinion is that if a player can always heal themselves and the GM is really looking to create more of an emotionally vested game. The players never get that feeling of dread if that is something they are trying to create..
Its more like this
Bad analogy but bare withIts like driving a car and never running out of gas or Fear of the when the next gas station will arrive.
Now this can be controlled by the DM but you would rather see them ration it no blow thru it like a fat kid with a dozen cupcakes.
<erased a lot of text>
I guess its hard for me to relate because I don't normally have this problem if I really want to push the party.Maybe we need a thread on helping GM's challenge players when they have +90% of their hit points as opposed to 50% or less.<----Other issues that GM's have could also be brought up.
Lazy gaming = it doesn't matter if the party mess up they have the resources to make the consequence of the encounter largely irrelevant.
Fighters can charge in without fear of death, jump off cliffs, etc. It doesn't matter - they will live and be able to carry on as if nothing had happened.
Gaming with consequences for your actions requires thought, communication and co-operation.
I know which game I'd be more challenged by and rather play.
I need an example now because I don't see that 1d8+1 wand being that useful if a lot of mistakes are made, past level 3.
Due to a lack of hit points I can someone dying at levels 1 and 2 if the GM just let the dice fall.
When someone charges in recklessly they tend to die or come close to it, unless the GM starts holding their hand. There are exceptions, but it is not the norm.
Example:
I was running a game, and there was a player(rogue) who forgot he was a rogue at times, and that led to situations like the following....
Well he went to sneak ahead(60 feet), and was noticed by the mini boss who had minions. They asked him what he was doing there, and he lied(did not roll bluff well enough). The rogue was invited over to talk about it. For some reason he thought that invisible PC tag over his head gave him immunity I guess so he begins to mouth off. At this point he is outnumbered at least 4 to 1. The BBEG decides that it does not matter why he is there and decide to end his life. Well the minions trip him, and due to bad rolls(not my fudging) he survives that first round. He yelled for help, and the party showed up and saved him*.
I forgot exactly how it went down, but he was bleeding out by the time the fight was over.
I brought that up to say this. Many times when a player/group survives something like that it is not due to lazy gaming, but an overly nice GM in my experience. That is why I am curios to hear about a "lazy gaming" example where someone did something wrong, and lazy gaming saved them.
PS:Yes he eventually died after trying to solo a boss.
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A long time ago I tried seriously cracking down on the CLW wands. You know what I discovered?
Traditional melee heavy groups really suffered in comparison to caster heavy groups. You see, caster heavy groups have incredible nova/burst power, but are balanced to SOME degree by their lack of staying power. But if hitpoints/heals are a significant resource at the adventure/when do we withdraw/rest next/etc level, those caster groups actually have nearly as much staying power as did the melee groups. For reference,
wizard,wizard,cleric,druid is a caster group whereas fighter,rogue,cleric who is fighty,wizard is a melee group. So unfortunately a lot of the balance between group types seems to be built into the CLW wand and easy healing. It was a bitter pill to swallow (the player reaction was to substitute further down the caster-heavy axis, and I've come to loathe such groups from a GM standpoint).Systemically I think Pathfinder has a problem in that it undervalues the ability to do burst/nova versus sustainable damage or effects.
It doesnt undervalue these things. It treats them as the standard. Paizo has made much more of the game about resource management. The few classes with limited resource management (fighter, rogue, and sort of monk) lag because they were handcuffed to 3.5 mechanics that pathfinder didnt change.
There was always a flaw in the idea that HP is one of the resources that had to be managed over the course of the day. Its that they dont come back without the expenditure of other resources. That was a flawed assumption of the game thats been around for a long time. The idea of wearing down and managing party resources using hp is a poor one when only a portion of the classes in the game rely on that kind of resource.
Instead pathfinder has added a whole bunch to many existing classes and their new classes all with individual expendable resrouces besides hp. In pathfinder the resources you wear down are spells, rage rounds, judgements, smites, challenges, mystery, alchemist bombs, etc. As those run out the party is stretched.
HP makes little to no sense when even at moderate levels many monsters can drop a character in a single full attack. And unlike the class based resources, it doesnt renew at the end of the day. Enter healing wands. HP is no longer a managed resource, and really hasnt been since 3rd edition started.
Last nights situation was this which is where the wand question came up:
Not sure if it has any relevence or not but:
The rouge checked for traps, (I rolled he failed to notice it , rolled a 19 in total to notice it needed dc 25). The trap in question was triggered by the rogue when he stepped on the plate. The the trap was activated when the 2nd person walked over it (the druid). The walls sprang together doing 20d6 damage (no save). I rolled the damage and got 51, the rouge had 46hp (6th level). The Druid was stabilized and then used the wand to heal up.
ferrin, was that trap in a module or your own creation?
This thread continues to go down the path that sucking a character's hit points is the only way to give the party something to worry about.
I dunno, but my characters have always found hit points to be the least bothersome resource to manage. Level drain was probably the most feared effect. Disease or anything else that did attribute damage was always more feared than hit point loss.
As a GM I rarely depend on reducing hit points to be the thing that puts limits on the player characters. I view hit points as being like battery charges. You charge between encounters. Wands are just one way of doing it. If I want to put the hurt on the party, I attack their attributes. Taking a few int points away from the wizard REALLY gets their attention I've found.
Yeah its from dead mans chest (isle of bonjo tomo) by necromancer games, its a bit of a killer if you are not careful. They have some level drains and str drain monsters coming up so that will change things a bit.
Last nights situation was this which is where the wand question came up:
Not sure if it has any relevence or not but:
The rouge checked for traps, (I rolled he failed to notice it , rolled a 19 in total to notice it needed dc 25). The trap in question was triggered by the rogue when he stepped on the plate. The the trap was activated when the 2nd person walked over it (the druid). The walls sprang together doing 20d6 damage (no save). I rolled the damage and got 51, the rouge had 46hp (6th level). The Druid was stabilized and then used the wand to heal up.
I am almost 100% sure no trap(following the trap rules) made for 6th level characters* is doing 20d6, so if the GM is going to have something that lethal, I would keep the wand around also. On average that is 70 points of damage which would have killed the rogue, and probably the druid to had the damage been higher.
Of course I am also wondering why the rogue did not take 20 unless the party was on a time crunch..
*CR 6 plus or minus 3
Challenge them in other ways besides health. You could do something like a health pool. For example, they can only heal 50% of their total health a day.
I just use the Strain/injury variant rule.
10 minutes after combat, all damage that wasn't done by Crits or Failed Saves or the last hit that took you below 0hp, heal up (it's strain damage. Your 10th level character did NOT take 10 arrows in his chest. He tumbled around dodging them, and is tired as a result. The Arrow that crit'ed, that one need healing)
If I were using the normal method, I'd fully understand that everybody would buy as much CLW wands as needed.
here it is:
The Isle of Bonjo Tombo is an adventure designed for
4 PCs of 6th to 8th level,
The players are level 6 and we use a modified hero point system similar to savage worlds where they have 3 points each session
This is the roome:
8. Crushing Wall Trap (EL 10)
A crushing wall trap is located at this point of the narrow corridor. The trap does not trigger until the second person has stepped upon its triggering device.
Crushing Wall Trap: CR 10; mechanical; location
trigger; automatic reset; no attack roll required (20d6,crush); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 25.
I did say percption dc 25 above but that was me not having the info to hand. I actuallly cut the damage back a bit as I thought it was too much.
The big thing that makes it harder in my opinion is that if a player can always heal themselves and the GM is really looking to create more of an emotionally vested game. The players never get that feeling of dread if that is something they are trying to create..
Its more like this
Bad analogy but bare withIts like driving a car and never running out of gas or Fear of the when the next gas station will arrive.
Now this can be controlled by the DM but you would rather see them ration it no blow thru it like a fat kid with a dozen cupcakes.
I knew there was a reason I took crafting.... [begins crafting wand of cupcakes]
Ouch..Necromancer games is known for being brutal so I can see them using a CR/EL 10 trap on a 6th level party.
I would suggest the party taking their time from now on.
I have never played savage worlds so I dont know how their points work.