When Paizo lets a 4th level monk 2hPA with temple sword three times a round for WIS rounds while the fighter, a class designed to fight stuff, gets only one attack at that level -- Paizo is doing something wrong. (And when the monk runs out of Ki, the poor thing crashes all the way down to only twice as good as the fighter.)-- The context of the discussion is a 4th-level Pathfinder monk. We're not talking 14th level monks vs 14th level sorcs, or whatever horrible memories you have of your miserable unarmed strikes flailing impotently against DR in 3rd edition.
Said Fighter also has the luxury of not needing 18 Wis to pull that off more than 2-3 times a day, and being able to wear heavy armor to shore up his AC.
Therefore, he can put more points in Str and snag a Greatsword.
So your Monk with maybe 14 Str, Power Attacking is attacking 3 times a round at a +3, dealing something like 1d6+5 damage, so assuming each strike connects (not likely at a +3 to-hit) he deals 3d6+15 damage.
Meanwhile your average 18-20 Str Fighter can swing a Greatsword for 2d6+12 (+13 at 20 Str) damage at a solid +6 to-hit, giving him twice as much of a chance to hit, at nearly as much damage, with no resources burned.
This is assuming a build where the Monk has any sort of focus on AC and saves, where he would match or exceed the Fighter's AC.
If he focuses mostly on Str, neglecting his Dex and Wis, sure he can deal a good amount of damage (up until the Fighter gets Weapon Training, plus Focus and Specialization, which he COULD actually have by 4 just fine) but with a hilariously low AC, lower than the non-AC focused Fighter.
He wouldn't survive long.
Don't even get me started on a Str focused Ranger with the TWFing Combat Style.
I play Monks. They are my favorite class. The only time I was ever able to match one of the combat classes in damage who were reasonably well specced was with amazing rolled stats (negating the MADness issue), and some DM help (Gloves of Dueling ruled to work with my Brawler Fighter dip, and Brawling on my Bracers of Armor) coupled with my overall better system mastery (though I'm far from perfect) since I kinda spend way too much time on these boards and browsing the SRD.
The class is not a combat beast in any way, shape or form. It has some unique advantages, and good, fun playstyles and archetypes, but it's not a combat monster.
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So to put a player perspective on this:
My GM thought I was min/maxing and munchkining for a while because my characters were performing at a high level and frequently producing results outside of what the other player's characters could reach. The thing was, I never dump stats and frequently play builds that are sub-optimal but interesting to me. The problem wasn't that I was min/maxing or being a munchkin, it's that my level of system mastery has reached the point where I have to try really hard to make a bad character. I know the source books very well, I know how to play the game, and I know what mistakes to avoid when making a character.
Ultimately, instead of taking outrageous steps to try and neutralize my character (though there was some of that initially) my GM just asked me to share my tips on character building with the other characters and help explain to them some common tactics for using different classes. The average competency level of the party rose closer to where I was at, and our GM was happier in the long run because he just bumped the CR's a bit, which allowed him to use a wider variety of monsters to challenge the party without knowing that anything that challenged me would murder the other players.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Remember, a monk flurrying is only -1 relative to fighter BAB; this means a monk's flurry attacks versus raw BAB are -1/-1/-1(Ki) versus a TWF fighter's -2/-2.
You appear to be looking at the -1/-1 chart entry for a 1st-level monk's flurry bonus, and thinking that's the penalty that you then apply to their BAB. But it's not. It's the net result of already accounting for their flurry BAB and then adding a -2 on top of it.
If you don't believe me, compare it to the same line on the fighter's chart. At 1st level, where the monk's flurry is listed as -1/-1, the fighter is listed as +1. The difference between +1 and -1 is 2.
You know, the same two that you take as a penalty for TWF.
So a fighter, with +1 BAB at first level, adding the -2/-2 penalties for TWF, ends up with -1/-1, exactly the same as the monk's flurry.
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Three attacks are considerably more effective than one attack, particularly at those levels in which hitting with the primary is far from a given.A fighter will not be less effective than a monk in combat at low levels.Seriously though, if a Monk is a "hog-the-show monstrosity" in your game, you're doing something wrong.When Paizo lets a 4th level monk 2hPA with temple sword three times a round for WIS rounds while the fighter, a class designed to fight stuff, gets only one attack at that level -- Paizo is doing something wrong. (And when the monk runs out of Ki, the poor thing crashes all the way down to only twice as good as the fighter.)
-- The context of the discussion is a 4th-level Pathfinder monk. We're not talking 14th level monks vs 14th level sorcs, or whatever horrible memories you have of your miserable unarmed strikes flailing impotently against DR in 3rd edition.
But it's the best kind of limited resource -- the kind you use only when you think you need to, as in....
Maybe when he uses his ki, but that is a limited resource.
If the monk is focusing in hitting things his AC will be a lower.
1) "Oh no! I whiffed twice verses the ogre!" ...spend Ki on AC.
2) "I stunned the orc shaman on my first attacked, but rolled a 1 on my second!" ...spend Ki for grapple attempt, or normal attack if target looks wobbly.Compared to wasting stun attempts on attacks that miss, spending Ki is a breeze. It's certainly a hell of a lot better than being a barbarian with two rage rounds left halfway through the second encounter of a PFS mod.
At level 4 the monk is taking a -4 to attack rolls when using flurry and power attack.
It's a rare melee build of any class which isn't Power Attacking at BAB4 (especially those run by "munchkins"), so the appropriate comparison is temple sword Ki/flurry -4/-4/-4 versus -2 for the fighter's single attack at BAB4.
Around 6th, the monk buys a Ki mat, and his daily limitations melt away.
At 7th, Paizo now gives him silver/cold-iron for free (6th printing).
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That 10k GP you spent to spend 1 hour sitting perfectly still (which, if interrupted at any time during, negates the whole thing) to regain that 1 Ki point (assuming you make the Wis check) is certainly both worth the money and entirely negating that Ki usage, yep.
Seriously, I'm beginning to think you've both neither played the class nor SEEN the class played.
It depends upon how cash-rich the campaign is, Toz; you could probably afford it in PFS (assuming the mat is available; I haven't checked).
Oh, and AoMF now cost half as much as they used to.
Err, no, they cost 4/5ths of what they used to.
They used to be 5k, now they're 4k.
They used to be 2.5x the price of a normal weapon, now they're only 2x. And still only have half the benefit.
do not present challenges that have single points of success but multiple points of failure. the more and higher the chance of failure the more players will act to negate it especially if every failure has dire consequences. present a challenge and let the players come up with a solution and flow with it.
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Oh, good lord, no! Snoozing for Ki is not anything like a tapped-out spellcaster's slumber being interrupted before he's had his full eight hours and additional time to pray or prepare spells and what-not. You know, that stuff we don't pay attention to anymore until the GM throws a curve-ball because he feels like dicking with us on that given Sunday.
The point is: a Ki mat is an item -- it doesn't require a feat slot and doesn't have any limitations inherent to the item. I.e., if you have the time, you recharge Ki.
Bard: "Hey; I'm going to the tavern to gossip and see if I can learn something."
Monk (CHA 7): "See you when you get back."
-- You think a fighter would buy an item which lets him rack extra attacks whenever he has time for a cat-nap? Hell yeah, he would.
Valeros: "Those sound awesome! Where can I get one?"
Monk: "Bad news, my friend...."
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The difference being this requires an hour for each Ki point, and requires a Wis check that increases for each Ki point you have, and ONLY works if you have such easy access to downtime (I dunno about you, but if a tavern is anywhere nearby, i.e. I'm NOT in some busted ruin, graveyard, dungeon or heading to my next destination, sleep is not far off anyway).
No, it doesn't require a Feat slot, but it requires precious CASH, cash which the Monk already needs more of than any other character, since he needs magic items to keep his AC within acceptable levels and to be at all competitive in damage.
So on top of this, he spends 10k for the ability to MAYBE, if the GM is nice, recover a single Ki point.
And this completely negates his resource management issues?
HA!
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I don't get a lot of chances in PFS to rest like that where I don't get my full ki point restored.
<nod> Gotta give ya that: money falls from the sky in PFS, but it's very much a hack-n-run-to-hack-some-more kind of a campaign.
The urgency of fulfilling faction assignments also shaves the possibility of you having much free time when you're in town.
Valeros: "Ok, well, at least I have these boots that I can use 10 times..."Valeros: "Those sound awesome! Where can I get one?"
Monk: "Bad news, my friend...."
Monk: "Did you get yours from Red Wing Shoes too?" Those guys rock!
Three attacks are considerably more effective than one attack, particularly at those levels in which hitting with the primary is far from a given.
Ki is a limited resource. He can't only do it for a number of rounds equal to his ki.
It is not an issue. You make it sound like the monk always has ki.
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Ki is a limited resource. He can't only do it for a number of rounds equal to his ki. It is not an issue. You make it sound like the monk always has ki.
The other side of this fallacy-of-the-excluded-middle argument would be me claiming you make it sound like he never has ki.
...Trait: Honored Fist of the Society = 1 ki.
...7 build points pre-racial for a 15(17)+bump = 4 ki.
...Extra Ki = 2 ki
...headband = 1 ki
8 ki isn't shabby at all for 4th or 5th. Shave a few if you're feat- or cash-tight.
Meanwhile, a paladin is finally getting his second smite at 5th.
I have a couple of outsized PCs in my group - a summoner who wears his eidolon as living armor and an alchemist barbarian. Honestly? Both are pretty broken builds. Legal but broken.
But rather than get into a rules lawyering match, I've storied the problem. The bad guys are smart. They've been watching the group through several extended encounters. They know their strengths and weaknesses.
The toughest guy - an alchemist - was crippled with a simple "Suggestion" spell.
The bottom line is that rather than beating up on a powerful PC as an act of DM fiat, you should have the world around him react as it really would - i.e. smart opponents will find chinks in his armor.
Then the problem becomes one of the player of the glass-cannon whining that his formerly invincible juggernaugt of doom is actually under-powered, and he's tired of the character and wants to retire him or kill him off to start another one...
...and off we go to that other long-running thread involving a GM dealing with players wanting to discard their characters once a tiny crack is revealed in their one-trick-pony DPR blitz build.
(This is likely to happen if you start using Suggestion with regularity on that alchemist.)
But I also do set some basic house rules. No dump stats, that kind of thing.
15/14/12/12/12/12. >:-)
So when did monks pass into overpowered and out of underpowered...did I miss a memo? I mean I've been watching the monk stuff pretty closely what happened?
Yes, that 8 Ki ain't shabby...
If you spend a significant amount of your PB on it, a Feat, and a trait (not counting the Headband since that's a "must have").
As well, that 8 Ki last you 8 rounds. Roughly 2 combats, 2 and a half if they're over in 3 instead of 4.
At least the Paladin's 2 Smites lasts that 2 combats, and applies to every round in said combat, with a much more significant bonus (and a bonus to-hit instead of a penalty!)
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Ki is a limited resource. He can't only do it for a number of rounds equal to his ki. It is not an issue. You make it sound like the monk always has ki.The other side of this fallacy-of-the-excluded-middle argument would be me claiming you make it sound like he never has ki.
Well I never said that. I have said the monk gets ki and it goes away. You said the monk has 3 attacks as if it always has it. If you want to acknowledge that ki comes and goes then I can stop saying it for you.
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Yes, that 8 Ki ain't shabby...
If you spend a significant amount of your PB on it, a Feat, and a trait (not counting the Headband since that's a "must have").
As well, that 8 Ki last you 8 rounds. Roughly 2 combats, 2 and a half if they're over in 3 instead of 4.
At least the Paladin's 2 Smites lasts that 2 combats, and applies to every round in said combat, with a much more significant bonus (and a bonus to-hit instead of a penalty!)
Paladin: "Dang, nabitty! I am sick and tired of assassin vines and golems. *sigh* Sometimes I just wish for a footpad trying to shiv me for my coin who was tough enough that I couldn't drop him in one hit without smiting.....
Monk: "I have eight extra attacks per day, more if I can find time to nap. They work on anything. And it's all powered by the same perspicacity which helps me avoid being hit without all that costly armor weighing you down!"
Paladin: "Have I ever told you how much I'm starting to hate you? I swear, the feeling is growing worse and worse by the hour. Are you evil yet? <squint> *Dammit!*"
Yes, that 8 Ki ain't shabby...
If you spend a significant amount of your PB on it, a Feat, and a trait (not counting the Headband since that's a "must have").
As well, that 8 Ki last you 8 rounds. Roughly 2 combats, 2 and a half if they're over in 3 instead of 4.
At least the Paladin's 2 Smites lasts that 2 combats, and applies to every round in said combat, with a much more significant bonus (and a bonus to-hit instead of a penalty!)
Paladin: "Dang, nabitty! I am sick and tired of assassin vines and golems. *sigh* Sometimes I just wish for a footpad trying to shiv me for my coin who was tough enough that I couldn't drop him in one hit without smiting.....
Monk: "I have eight extra attacks per day, more if I can find time to nap. They work on anything. And it's all powered by the same perspicacity which helps me avoid being hit without all that costly armor weighing you down!"
Paladin: "Have I ever told you how much I'm starting to hate you? I swear, the feeling is growing worse and worse by the hour. Are you evil yet? <squint> *Dammit!*"
And I'm sure someone else could create a sarcastic scenario with a useless monk and a gift-from-gods paladin.
But it would be just as pointless.
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Yes, that 8 Ki ain't shabby...
If you spend a significant amount of your PB on it, a Feat, and a trait (not counting the Headband since that's a "must have").
As well, that 8 Ki last you 8 rounds. Roughly 2 combats, 2 and a half if they're over in 3 instead of 4.
At least the Paladin's 2 Smites lasts that 2 combats, and applies to every round in said combat, with a much more significant bonus (and a bonus to-hit instead of a penalty!)
Paladin: "Dang, nabitty! I am sick and tired of assassin vines and golems. *sigh* Sometimes I just wish for a footpad trying to shiv me for my coin who was tough enough that I couldn't drop him in one hit without smiting.....
Monk: "I have eight extra attacks per day, more if I can find time to nap. They work on anything. And it's all powered by the same perspicacity which helps me avoid being hit without all that costly armor weighing you down!"
Paladin: "Have I ever told you how much I'm starting to hate you? I swear, the feeling is growing worse and worse by the hour. Are you evil yet? <squint> *Dammit!*"
Monk (Secretly): Man I wish any of my attacks would hit, and when they did they'd do more than tickle. Damn Paladin and his ability to wear armor to have a higher AC, have similarly good saves, and a higher normal damage output.
No higher starting stat of 16 is a good start but don't limit the ability to drop to 7 as you will make it impossible to play MAD class.Definitely have to disagree with you here. Assuming a 20 point buy build, a max of 16 and a min of 10 equates to 2 scores of 16, everything else 10. That's a +3 to two ability scores, right from creation, plus your race choice might even bump one or both of them to 18. That's at level 1. If you start higher, you can introduce stat increases and magic items.
I'd say that's plenty to build an effective MAD class. Am I missing something obvious there in my math perhaps?
not enough to play a monk.
a monk, to keep up with the 18 STR 14 Dex 14 Con Fighter (after mods) requires
20 Str 18 Dex 18 Wis 18 Con and is still inferior to the fighter with much lower attributes.
I wouldn't go THAT far. Given those ability scores I could make a Monk that would wreck pretty much anything if I put my mind to it.
When Paizo lets a 4th level monk 2hPA with temple sword three times a round for WIS rounds while the fighter, a class designed to fight stuff, gets only one attack at that level -- Paizo is doing something wrong. (And when the monk runs out of Ki, the poor thing crashes all the way down to only twice as good as the fighter.)
So what you're saying is the Monk has trampled the Fighter underfoot so he can, if he cranes his neck and squints, catch a glimpse of the Wizard and Cleric, way waaaaaay up at the top of the tiers. If he waves vigorously, the Summoner might be close enough to nod back.
Seriously, I've thought for a while that a monk is a character who could excel in random roll character generation. If you roll three or four 16s ( don't laugh, I've seen it happen), and the Spellcasters have at maximum a 14 in their primary attribute, then yeah, he could be pretty cool.
Limit the books and put specific rules on builds.
For my part, I set up the following rules for my current campaign:
*All stats must be no higher than 16 or lower than 10 pre-racial bonuses
(so no starting with a 20 by dumping a stat or two to 7)
Right, Giving a slightly high point buy but disallowing Dumping gets rid of a lot of Min/Maxing.
Guys, can we not have the 1254th thread degrade into yet another Monk argument?
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We are on session 26 and about 10 games ago the min/maxer's character died. He did a new character, a monk, and has just gone nuts with munchkining it. I have tried to explain how I feel but it is going on deaf ears apparently.
I do not want to punish the rest of the group because of one character. I try very hard to balance the encounter for the group and CR, but when you have a 4th level character who can bump his AC to 32 during an encounter it makes it pretty hard.
Monk's are pretty damn good for doing that.
I too have a 4th level Monk and I can jump up to 31 with the assistance of my Wizard friend using Mage Armor. All my poor monk has is a ring of protection +1 for gear. My DM is usually very frustrated at my Monk's high Touch and Regular AC for nearly every encounter. He tends to ignore my character after one attack and focuses on easier to hit characters(if I'm not standing my fatass in the way)
I wouldn't say it's hard to "balance" though. You can focus on his CMD and maybe just trip him or use a spell on the monk to disable him somehow, then take swings at another character. He isn't the only member of the party of course. You could even make the creature go full defense, and try to move through the crowd and get close to something easier to hit.
I'm actually tempted to ask him if he wants me to lower my Dex to make it easier than rolling a 19 or 20 to hit me.
I can tell you one thing, he is paying the price in lack of damage for his AC. I assume he's a dex/wis monk?
i am trying to figure out how a monk got 32 AC at 4th level.
10 base
4 mage armor
5 dex
4 wis
1 monk
4 crane style
1 ring of protection
1 amulet of natural armor
2 combat expertise
but to pull that off you take
a -4 to hit, -3 w/ trait tax
a 1st level spell from an ally
2 magic items worth 2,000 apiece
34 points worth of attributes, hinting at a 40+ point allotment
3 feats, 2 of which require an archetype to acquire at this point
now, by swapping Dex and Wis, you can get similar results with an onispawn tiefling at a lower to hit penalty.
i am trying to figure out how a monk got 32 AC at 4th level.
10 base
4 mage armor
5 dex
4 wis
1 monk
4 crane style
1 ring of protection
1 amulet of natural armor
2 combat expertisebut to pull that off you take
a -4 to hit, -3 w/ trait tax
a 1st level spell from an ally
2 magic items worth 2,000 apiece
34 points worth of attributes, hinting at a 40+ point allotment
3 feats, 2 of which require an archetype to acquire at this point
now, by swapping Dex and Wis, you can get similar results with an onispawn tiefling at a lower to hit penalty.
Without checking, I think monks can swap one of their features with the barkskin SLA so trade the 1 from the amulet for a 2 from barkskin.
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It depends on the build and gear.
My Monk can get to 31 at level 4(37 with full defense).
18 Wis and 18 Dex. Starting at 18 AC and Touch AC. +1 from Ring of Protection. +1 from being Level 4(monk bonus). +2 for Barkskin. +4 for Mage Armor. +1 from Dodge. +4 for using a Ki Point.
I assume maybe the monk he speaks of uses a similar build and combat tactic?
How to stop your players from being munchkins...petrify them, then cast transmute rock to mud. Now they're not munchkins, they're mud. Your welcome.
Let's see if I can min-max this, 20 point buy, and get the 32:
Aasmir Drunken Master Monk of the Sacrd Mountains +Wis/Dex
Str: 7
Int: 10
Wis: 18 (20 with magic item)
Dex: 19 (20 after level up, 22 with magic item)
Con: 14
Chr: 7My trait lets me combat experitse for -1 less to my attack bonus.
I bought an Agile Amulet of Mighty fist, a wand of mage armor for the party's mage, a +1 ring of protection, a headband of Wisdom, and a Belt of dex +2
Feats: 1) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finessee
2) Dodge
3) Crane Style 1I always fight defensivly with combat expertise; and when in dangerous area ask for mage armor.
So base AC: 21 (Wis + Dex bonuses), +1 (Combat Expertise), +3 (Fighting Defensively) +2 (Standing still, Sacred Mountain) +1 (Ring of Protection) +1 (Monk Level), and, 9 times (plus drunken ki) per day (Ki Pool) can be +4 extra. That's a 33.
And I'm still hitting at +7/+7 for d8+6. Soon I'll also pick up trip and knock people down well too.
Yeah, guess it is possible. Who said monks are weak? :).
Sorry if this has been said already, but how does a level 4 character have over 14,000 gold in items?
Amulet of Mighty Fist +1 4,000
Headband of Wisd +2 4,000
Belt of Dex +2 4,000
Ring of Prot +1 2,000
So yes, while your level 4 monk is great he also has the wealth of a near level 6 character. Or am I missing something here?
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i am trying to figure out how a monk got 32 AC at 4th level.
10 base
4 mage armor
5 dex
4 wis
1 monk
4 crane style
1 ring of protection
1 amulet of natural armor
2 combat expertisebut to pull that off you take
a -4 to hit, -3 w/ trait tax
a 1st level spell from an ally
2 magic items worth 2,000 apiece
34 points worth of attributes, hinting at a 40+ point allotment
3 feats, 2 of which require an archetype to acquire at this point
now, by swapping Dex and Wis, you can get similar results with an onispawn tiefling at a lower to hit penalty.
You don't really need 34 points of attributes, if you purchasing gear to allocate the extra bonuses. I'll show my example once more:
- 10 Base
- 4 DEX (16 Base + 2 Enhancement [Belt])
- 5 WIS (16 Base + 2 Enhancement [Headband] + 1 AC Bonus)
- 1 Deflection (Ring of Protection)
- 1 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor)
- 3 Dodge (2 Fighting Defensively + 1 Acrobatics)
- 1 Dodge (Crane Style)
- 1 Dodge (Dodge Feat)
- 1 Dodge (Combat Expertise)
- 4 Armor (Mage Armor)
- 31 AC(Fighting Defensively)
- 27 AC (Not Fighting Defensively)
Easy enough. Now if the monk was a halfling, that also changes things since they can get up to 3 bonus things that can boost AC:
- Small Creature - Gains +1 AC (Size)
- Underfoot Racial Trait (Swapping Halfling Luck) - If the attacking creature is larger than the halfing, gain +1 AC (Dodge)
- Cautious Fighter - A halfing feat from ARG. Increase the Dodge Bonus of Fighting Defensivly or Total Defense by 2.
So... now with that, and with the price set for a level 4 Monk (Buying Headband and Ring of Protection, Possible Rope Dart since it is 1g), let us make a Halfing Monk.
- 10 Base
- 3 DEX (16 Base)
- 5 WIS (16 Base + 2 Enhancement [Headband] + 1 AC Bonus)
- 1 Deflection (Ring of Protection)
- 1 Size (Halfing)
- 1 Dodge (Underfoot)
- 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter)
- 3 Dodge (2 Fighting Defensively + 1 Acrobatics)
- 1 Dodge (Crane Style)
- 1 Dodge (Dodge Feat)
- 1 Dodge (Combat Expertise)
- 4 Armor (Mage Armor)
- 1 Shield (Rope Dart Blocking feature)
- 33 AC (Fighting Defensively), 34 if Creature is Size Larger than Halfling.
- 28 AC (Not Fighting Defensively)
Items Purchased: Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Ring of Protection +1
Possible. And this is with 16 DEX/WIS.
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Guys, can we not have the 1254th thread degrade into yet another Monk argument?
Oh I'm sorry that I'm contributing to the ruination of "I don't like my players to be good at things, how do I make them stoppit" thread #17861.
At the very least the Monk discussion was given a new wrinkle in finding someone who, somehow, thinks Monks are OP.
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A bit of my recent experience : I realized I do not powergame as much as I could because I know that my GM is not giving our characters over-the-top challenges.
This allows me to relax on the optimization side and invest character resources in story-driven and roleplay-driven aspects, or just in things that look cool (even if not the optimal choice).
And the other players do the same too.
If the challenges were tougher, I would optimize to the max just to keep my character alive and let the story and roleplay fall by the wayside.
I think my fun at playing would be less overall.
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I am not touching the monk debate, you guys keep that to yourself. I'm just here to address something that hasn't been said yet.
Size +1 to AC (obviously, not usable with Tiefling)
If you're not playing PFS, +1 size bonus to AC obviously is usable with Tiefling as long as your GM doesn't say "not in my campaign".
In game terms, the difference between non-human tieflings and human tieflings is purely a matter of size. Unless they have specific tiefling-related size modifiers, the tieflings of each of these races are the same size as their non-fiendish ancestors. They gain any of the bonuses or penalties related to that size, but gain no racial bonuses except those of the tiefling; beyond size, their humanoid ancestry is purely cosmetic.
So go ahead, play a small-sized tiefling and get that size bonus. It'll also help your to hit.
Also, it seems to me the go-to heritage for a tiefling dex-based monk should be asura-spawn. For a -2 to int, they get +2 dex and +2 wis, boosting both of their AC-related stats.
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Black Raven, I fully agree that not having to super-optimize is generally for the best in most groups. I certainly like taking silly things like Bestial Speech or whatever. Though annoyingly my current Wizard is going to be grabbing a bunch of item creation stuff, so that limits what I can do with feats. That's just because I like having odd abilities.
I wouldn't say that hardcore optimization prevents roleplaying in any form. You can have just as complicated a story and roleplay with an optimized guy as with a non-optimized one.
I agree completely. You can in fact have some great roleplaying fun while playing an "optimized for survival" character.
It's just that you will NOT invest resources in "non-optimized for survival" options for your build, thereby curtailing on the abilities of your character when not in life-threatening situations.
IMO, you can insert roleplay and story in the two distinct phases of the game which are Building the character and Playing the character. I just realized that I feel happier being able to use "non-optimized for survival" options in my build without fearing for my PC's continued survival.
Which means that my own take on optimizing my character does not center solely on it being able to survive.
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Always audit the characters.
There is no right to privacy in PC builds.
The GM has to know what the players are capable of to his job.
Also, I amused that in this thread multiclassing and monks are considered powerful.
So much this. Most times overpowered characters are misreading of the rules or math errors.
Audits can be annoying, but if you do it regularly as part of character creation and leveling, it doesn't take long and saves a lot of hassle when things come up at the table.
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As the OP, I have read with interest most of the discussions on here about monks and I believe a lot of what was said about my "reactions" was true.
I have never allowed monks in my campaigns, not because I thought they were broken but because I didn't think they fit the "feel" of the campaign. That being said, in this latest campaign I allowed them, I pretty much allowed anything in any of the core and official pathfinder books.
I will admit now that my knowledge of the monk is extremely limited because of this. I have taken a look at the actual build and believe my first impressions were exaggerated and that I need to evaluate my opinion on this character.
I thank everyone for the interesting discussions.
David