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D. Door was a bad example.
How about blasts? At high levels, you have a way around that, for a while.
And I'm not surprised your GM forgets your spell failure chance, and you just roll with it. 15 people is a bit much for me...
i rarely blast as neither a wizard nor an AT
i set up a few buffs and summons
the party members kill stuff for me. i'm just there to buff, use the infernal healing wands, and do the skill monkey stuff.
yeah, i may fireball a swarm, but most of my SA spells are cantrips augmented by a blur effect from a minor cloak of displacement. and before that, i cast blur.
And you're a Japanese girl. And you use 3.x. With 15 people.
I just play Pathfinder.
i use 3.pp
it is dominantly pathfinder, 3.5/3.pp stuff is allowable case by case if there isn't already a pathfinder equivalent.
3.5 isn't totally unrestricted, but we allow a lot of resources from PHB 2, a lot of the reserve feats, stuff like practiced spellcaster and the twilight armor enchantment, and the occasional spell compendium spell or Bo9S feat as long as we show the DM before hand.
deity or setting specific prestige classes are rarely accepted without conversion, but we do allow things like Anima Mage, Unseen Seer, Sublime Cord, Spellthief and Binder as long as you have the book or a PDF printout for both yourself, and for the DM.
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Logical step? that's not how things work. Just because they supply you for item creation, doesnt mean they satisfy for spellcasting classes. and here's why...
craft staff says...
Prerequisite: Caster level 11th.
arcane trickster says....
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd
level or higher.
That is different. having a caster level, is different than 'at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher'. first off, SLAs are neither arcane nor divine as far as I know. they recreate arcane and divine spells, but are not those things themselves. secondly, having a caster level, is different than being able to cast a SPELL. not a spell-like.
Arcane Strike
Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Spell like abilities also count you as being able to cast arcane spells
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Skills: Disable Device 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6.
because a tiefling's darkness ability counts as an arcane spell for arcane strike, and because darkness is a 2nd level spell on the wizard spell list
and arcane trickster merely requires 1 second level or higher spell
and because spell like abilities mimic the appropriate spell for prerequisites
a tiefling's once per day darkness, allows him or her to become an arcane trickster at level 5 with 3 rogue levels and 1 wizard level on the same grounds that let him or her take arcane strike without levels in a spell casting class.
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exactly. You cannot take a single exception as a the rule. that means because monks dont have to use two weapons when using 'two weapon fighting' from flurry of blows, that no one else needs to either. a fighter cannot use a greatsword to use two-weapon fighting, even though a monk CAN with a temple sword in two hands. The exception is NOT the rule, sorry.
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Yup. Also, i know it says that having a caster level from a SLA qualifies you for item creation feats, but where does it say that qualifies you for arcane strike, since SLAs are neither arcane nor divine? i'm not saying it's not there, I just dont remember reading that, can you point it out to me please?
LD:
They aren't "the same grounds;" you're conflating a specific exception for a singular case for a general rule modification across the board. Just because the standard is waived in the first case doesn't mean you can apply that waiver to an entirely different situation.
if a spell like ability qualifies for one thing that requires the ability to cast spells
then it qualifies for everything that requires the ability to cast spells, as long as the spell like were of the appropriate minimum level
so by grounds of counting as arcane spellcasting for arcane strike
a tiefling or aasimaar counts the arcane casting part for arcane trickster or mystic theurge as long as their SLA is 2nd level or higher
and the the aasimaar covers the arcane casting of eldritch knight as long as they don't use a variant heritage w/ a 2nd or lower level spell
it may not be an intended effect, but it is an indirect effect caused by allowing spell like abilities to qualify for arcane strike
because spell like abilities qualify for a feat that requires arcane casting, they now qualify for a prestige class that requires spells of an appropriate level as long as the spell it mimics has a level above the minimum on the wizard list (or cleric then druid lists if not wizard list)
i personally like this change.
other than eldritch knight at level 3
i have no problem with a tiefling arcane trickster taking their first AT level at 5th level, no a problem with an aasimaar mystic theurge at 5th or 6th level in place of 7th or 9th.
my problem with prestige classes, is they take too long to enter to truly be a practical choice unless you start off really high level with a blank sheet and a bunch of gold.
Spell like abilities meet prerequisites 1
Does this mean that a Rogue with Minor Magic does qualify for Arcane Strike then?
ZanThrax, yes (we almost included that as an example in the FAQ answer).
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Spell like abilities meet prerequisites 1
the thread the quote came fromDoes this mean that a Rogue with Minor Magic does qualify for Arcane Strike then?
ZanThrax, yes (we almost included that as an example in the FAQ answer).
Thanks for the reference on the FAQ. but it's not a change, you're applying something that wasnt spelled out in the examples. taking their example of one feat, and applying it as a blanket statement to all classes with caster level requirements does not work. also, you may find it a welcome change, but you play in 15 person games with 4 hour battles, and use 3.5 materials.
So by your logic, a fighter with a great sword can use two-weapon fighting, because a monk is allowed to with flurry of blows?
Spell like abilities meet prerequisites 1
the thread the quote came fromDoes this mean that a Rogue with Minor Magic does qualify for Arcane Strike then?
ZanThrax, yes (we almost included that as an example in the FAQ answer).
Thanks for the reference on the FAQ. but it's not a change, you're applying something that wasnt spelled out in the examples. taking their example of one feat, and applying it as a blanket statement to all classes with caster level requirements does not work. also, you may find it a welcome change, but you play in 15 person games with 4 hour battles, and use 3.5 materials.
So by your logic, a fighter with a great sword can use two-weapon fighting, because a monk is allowed to with flurry of blows?
that is a different case.
a Fighter with a greatsword can't 2WF with 2 greatswords unless they have at least 4 arms, but they can do so with the combination of a greatsword and either unarmed strikes, armor spikes, bladed boots, a braid blade, a tail blade, or something like that.
If going down the Sorcerer AT route then you are probably better off grabbing the Arcane (Sage) bloodline and using Int for your casting.cha is an inferior casting stat to int, because skill points are much cooler and better than a social bonus
I think that's definitely the best way to do a sorcerer AT. I just have a problem with "I'm a sorcerer, but I use int. instead of cha."
Just rubs me the wrong way, but if your group is ok with it, you'll be a far more effective trickster with 5 bonus ranks/level than you will with 1.
sorry if i was assuming that SKR's muddying of the water to be official.
Yup. Only characters that can cast Mage Hand and a 2nd level spell qualify. That trims it down to just a few classes.
I already gave my opinion on 3/4 (or is it 2/3?) casting classes. I don't care for them as tricksters because of the hit they take in combat viability.
Look at the chassis: You get sor/wiz BAB and hp. You get 2 good saves. You get a boatload of class skills, but unless you're an int-based caster, you can't keep all the most important ones maxed.
Bards suck because of their spell list. Not conducive to being a super-scout. Their BAB at 20th is 12. That's just lame.
Same for magi. They get good blasts, but only up to 6th level spells, and they're missing a bunch that really work for the sneaky magical scout.
Ninja/Sor or Rogue/Wiz loses little, by comparison. The rog/wiz super-scout with AAP, great light armor, and a really magical weapon has what it takes to survive an ambush and flank when his friends catch up, as Xavier related.
The other end of the spectrum is the ninja/sor. Charisma works for ki powers and spells. They're also as charming as any bard. They're better for the "hang back and spam sneak attack spells" thing, especially once they have Improved Invis. I just don't think that's all that great.
I much prefer the scouty version. They can go places and do things other characters can't do nearly as well, and start doing it before they even enter the class.
We've already noted the superiority of an enhanced mithral chain shirt compared to Mage Armor, or even +8 bracers. If taking a feat means you can cast spells in armor that's much better than Mage Armor, it's worth it. +9 armor bonus that's on all the time, and a +5 to a +15 stealth bonus? Yes, please!
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if a spell like ability qualifies for one thing that requires the ability to cast spells
then it qualifies for everything that requires the ability to cast spells, as long as the spell like were of the appropriate minimum level
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No. If an SLA qualifies for one thing that requires the ability to cast spells, it qualifies for one thing that requires the ability to cast spells. That's all.
UNLESS YOU'RE HOUSERULING, the rules say what they say, no more and no less.
I have no beef with houserules; use a lot of 'em. But your blanket statements about how the rules can be modified are wrong. You need to mark things out AS HOUSERULES when you're making broad statements like these. You'll confuse the newbies.
some people just don't like that tiefling rogue 3 wizard 1 becoming an arcane trickster at level 5 because it steps on the toes of the human being the master race.
humans can already feat tax their way into any broken racial option they wish.
humans already have pretty much a good monopoly on favored class bonuses
why can't we let tieflings and aasimaars enter arcane trickster a little early?
lets look at what you are giving up as an aasimaar or tiefling to gain early arcane trickster/eldritch knight/mystic theurge access
lack of synergistic attribute bonuses
lack of decent favored class bonuses
a whole feat and potentially a skill point per level
the option for a variety of alternate heritages that offer an SLA that doesn't meet the level requirement
a lopsided focus on whatever side doesn't cast arcane spells
and a very niche build that falls apart due to a lack of potential bonus spells.
Yup. Only characters that can cast Mage Hand and a 2nd level spell qualify. That trims it down to just a few classes.
I already gave my opinion on 3/4 (or is it 2/3?) casting classes. I don't care for them as tricksters because of the hit they take in combat viability.
Look at the chassis: You get sor/wiz BAB and hp. You get 2 good saves. You get a boatload of class skills, but unless you're an int-based caster, you can't keep all the most important ones maxed.
Bards suck because of their spell list. Not conducive to being a super-scout. Their BAB at 20th is 12. That's just lame.
Same for magi. They get good blasts, but only up to 6th level spells, and they're missing a bunch that really work for the sneaky magical scout.
Ninja/Sor or Rogue/Wiz loses little, by comparison. The rog/wiz super-scout with AAP, great light armor, and a really magical weapon has what it takes to survive an ambush and flank when his friends catch up, as Xavier related.
The other end of the spectrum is the ninja/sor. Charisma works for ki powers and spells. They're also as charming as any bard. They're better for the "hang back and spam sneak attack spells" thing, especially once they have Improved Invis. I just don't think that's all that great.
I much prefer the scouty version. They can go places and do things other characters can't do nearly as well, and start doing it before they even enter the class.
We've already noted the superiority of an enhanced mithral chain shirt compared to Mage Armor, or even +8 bracers. If taking a feat means you can cast spells in armor that's much better than Mage Armor, it's worth it. +9 armor bonus that's on all the time, and a +5 to a +15 stealth bonus? Yes, please!
there is also mithril Kikko, which for 2930 more than the mithril shirt, is completely identical with the exception it provides 1 more point of AC.
you can use arcane armor training to negate the failure
and because there is no armor check penalty, you can wear it without proficiency
29,030 gold pieces, a feat (AAT) and a swift action for +10 to AC without a penalty i think beats 26,100 for +9 with the same feat and swift action tax or wasting a first level spell for a dispellable +4 that only lasts a short while.
DM doesn't like oriental stuff
tell him that Kikko is merely a Japanese word for Brigandine and call it Brigandine, but for all intents and purposes, functions as Kikko.
Mithril Kikko is amazing for ATs.
exactly. You cannot take a single exception as a the rule. that means because monks dont have to use two weapons when using 'two weapon fighting' from flurry of blows, that no one else needs to either. a fighter cannot use a greatsword to use two-weapon fighting, even though a monk CAN with a temple sword in two hands. The exception is NOT the rule, sorry.
Armor spiked and greatsword is legal. Unarmed strike (kick) and Greatsword as well for TWFing.
some people just don't like that tiefling rogue 3 wizard 1 becoming an arcane trickster at level 5 because it steps on the toes of the human being the master race.
---------------------------------------------------------------------...and, apparently, some people don't like the RAW. Which is FINE, but you STILL need to mark houserulings AS SUCH, instead of insisting that a rules exception that has NOTHING TO DO WITH PrC entry applies to PrC entry.
i guess i did apply that Exception a little too broadly.
it just seemed to me a logical step after using an SLA to qualify for arcane strike.
plus it would make some of the useless SLAs more useful
Such as Daylight for the Aasimaar, Darkness for the tiefling and drow, or gust of wind for the Sylph for example
now. the Suli has an Awesome SLA, the problem is, the limited useage. but it functions as similar to a certain 2nd level 3.5 duskblade spell from the spell compendium (elemental weapon)
the awesome parts include, swift action, and augmented weapon damage.
I don't disagree about the kikko, but it lists a 20% spell failure. I prefer knowing all spells automatically work with light armor. Like you said, if your campaign allows it, go for it. I (and most people I play with) don't like the mix and match. "Katanas in Absalom? Maybe if there are some visiting Samurai. Otherwise, not likely. We make (European-style) weapons."
Oriental items are great in an oriental campaign, where the game is (or will be, hopefully) a little different, anyway. I'd like to see psions and wu jen again in Golarion. Just not in a European-inspired setting.
I look forward to the Asian and even Indian takes on future products, though.
I don't disagree about the kikko, but it lists a 20% spell failure. I prefer knowing all spells automatically work with light armor. Like you said, if your campaign allows it, go for it. I (and most people I play with) don't like the mix and match. "Katanas in Absalom? Maybe if there are some visiting Samurai. Otherwise, not likely. We make (European-style) weapons."
Oriental items are great in an oriental campaign, where the game is (or will be, hopefully) a little different, anyway. I'd like to see psions and wu jen again in Golarion. Just not in a European-inspired setting.
I look forward to the Asian and even Indian takes on future products, though.
20% -10% from mithril =10%
a non-mithril chain shirt also has 20% before mithril (10% after)
Mithril Kikko
AC +5 max Dex +6 ACP 0 ASF 10% Weight 12.5 lbs 4,030 GP
Mithril Chain Shirt
Ac +4 Max Dex +6 ACP 0 ASF 10% Weight 12.5 lbs 1100 GP
Kikko has the same failure as a chain shirt
and Kikko is just another name for brigandine
if you do use it in a western game, it is easy to write "Brigandine Armor" instead of "kikko armor" and use the "Kikko" stats.
Mithral
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard.
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10% , maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
HP/inch 30
Hardness 15
Cost Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Weight 1/2 normal
Weight (Longer Wording) An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed).
Personally, my favorite progression for a non-evil arcane trickster is elf or half-elf (Ancestral Weapon - longbow) rogue (sniper) 3/wizard (admixture) 3/arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/arcane archer +2. The sniper archetype reduces range increment penalties and increases the range for Sneak Attacks to 40 ft until sniper's goggles are affordable; admixture to change the energy type of damaging spells on the fly. Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are pretty useful for an arcane archer, so filling the prerequisites for arcane archer isn't that onerous. Missing out on 9th-level spells is (IMO) acceptable, since a "normal" rogue 3/wizard 3/arcane trickster 10/wizard +4 would only get 9th-level spells at 20th level anyway, for the +2 BAB and arcane archer abilities (mostly Imbue Arrow, with Enhance Arrows (Elemental) also being useful).
With heroism (3rd-level sorcerer/wizard spell) active to boost the +12 BAB, the character makes an adequate ranged combatant in addition to the scout and sniper roles. Imbue Arrow from arcane archer, when used with Quickened true strike and Surprise Spells, can make a very effective "preemptive strike" against a BBEG and minions (granted, you have to wait until 18th character level for the combo).
Arcane Armor Training, as I stated earlier, can help with keeping AC up around 3rd-10th character level. On reaching around 12th-15th character level, retraining to another feat (Extra Rogue Talent or a metamagic feat like Empower Spell, Intensified Spell, or Reach Spell, probably) and switching to magical haramaki or silken ceremonial armor (with the scroll of mage armor in case of incorporeal foes) is probably sufficient. An arcane trickster is stronger as a ranged combatant/spellcaster than a melee flanker/skirmisher; let the beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist, eldritch knight, magus, and summoner focus more on melee while you play to your strengths.
20% -10% from mithril =10%
Derp! Of course... Kikko's definitely better, if you can get it.
I think Arcane Armor Training is a decent way to pump your AC and probably an easy way, but it is neither the only one, nor the most efficient one.
Unless you're playing in PFS, I think Craft Wondrous Item is a better feat investment than Arcane Armor Training:
- you can pump your AC by casting Mage Armor and crafting magic items at half cost (amulet of natural armor, belt of DEX, ioun stone...) and still get the same AC for the same cost of your magical mithral armor.
- you can craft other items, such as pearls of power, handy haversack, stat-boost item...
- you don't need to spend your swift action each time you cast a spell.
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Djelai: That is assuming you have time to craft something as money intensive as bracers of armor +8. In addition, BUYING 9not crafting) +5 mithril brigandine (kikko) armor is cheaper, and gives two more AC with AAT. and we've gone over the fact that ATs dont even get quicken until level 16 or 17 most of the time, and can use tricky spells five times per day to ignore the somatic components anyway, which eliminates the need for AAT on the turns you want to quicken. it's cheaper, easier, more cost effective, and doesnt require a campaign with down time. i can tell you most of the APs have a very distinct LACK of down time near the last few books, rushing you toward the fight with the BBEG as fast as possible. Assuming you can get craft wondrous time, you can get it later, for more money and less AC.
In addition, BUYING 9not crafting) +5 mithril brigandine (kikko) armor is cheaper, and gives two more AC with AAT.
No, it is not.
The mithral kikko armor costs 4'030 gp for a +5 armor bonus to AC.Casting Mage Armor and crafting a +1 natural armor bonus only costs 1'000 gp.
Before arguing about the 1st-level spell slot for Mage Armor, let's craft a 1st-level pearl of power for another 500 gp.
=> Net profit : 2'530 gp.
I can continue pumping the AC through magic items, such as ioun stone and belt of incredible DEX. I am too lazy to redo the maths for higher enhancement bonus, which can be found on these boards anyway.
So no, Arcane Armor Training is neither cheaper nor more cost effective (which is the same by the way) than crafting, but, yes, it's easier (already agreed on this).
And yes, I assume you have time for crafting, the very same way you assume you can purchase a mithral kikko armor anywhere in the world as soon as you can afford it.
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Djelai: First off, being insulting about the kikko armor is completely uneeded. I never once insinuated I could pick it up anywhere I wanted at any time. It is exactly the same as the western Brigandine style armor, which existed in 2nd edition, so our DM has allowed the western equivalent. Secondly, I'm talking about crafting bracers of armor, versus buying magical armor. You can get a higher AC, combining magical armor with AAT, plus all those other nifty cheap AC enhancing tricks, than by using mage armor. If you'd read previously in the threat, we actually went through much of the math and numbers on this very subject, so I dont really want to type it all out again. The mage armor is cheaper and doesnt take a feat, but results in a significantly lower AC.
Andreww: At 15th level, an AT only has 12th level casting abilities, so 6th level spells. Most ATs wont have the ability to GET spell perfection that early, considering all the other feats they need to take in order to survive and be effective as the scout/trapper, in addition to a caster. Generally, with a full-time caster, you'd get quicken around level 13 at the earliest, and probably around 15 normally, that way you can have a variety of spells to quicken, unless you MUST quicken those first and second level spells in the place of your highest slots. and you cannot get spell perfection and quicken at the same level with an AT. However, if you get it at 17, you get a bounus wizard feat at level 19, which you can use to take spell perfection. The hard part is fitting in the THREE metamagic feats to GET spell perfection in before level 15, when you also need ot take stuff like spell penetration, and others like toughness, weapon finesse, great fortitude and the like.
Djelai: First off, being insulting about the kikko armor is completely uneeded.
I meant no disrespect.
However, it seems that you already made up your mind. I see no point in discussing further.Have a nice game.
The thing here is that ATs don't get a lot of feats.
My advice is to not play a trickster like a full sor/wiz. You'll be disappointed. Play him like a magically-enhanced rogue, and he kicks ass.
Leave item creation to the full casters. They don't need feats like weapon finesse or AAP. If your party wizard or cleric can make you some magic items, great. Since you may have spells he doesn't, you can even help him with that, if you have some downtime.
Xavier's trickster is 3 caster levels behind a straight caster, and casts his spells at 1 caster level behind. He's not the best guy in the party for item creation feats, anyway. Let the "god" casters do that. With all the other things tricksters need to do, it shouldn't be his job.
What do they do, exactly? Here's an 11th level wizard trickster's spell list on 2 very different days (from the guide):
This is just a solo recon mission to scope the place out. If he's detected, he'll bug out immediately, and hopefully can’t be identified. Between pre-casting a number of spells beforehand, his Rod of Silent Spell, his Tricky Spells ability, and his Ring of Invisibility, he thinks he can pull it off without being seen or heard, and may not need to cast any spells at all while he's there. If there are any secrets there worth knowing, he's determined to learn them.
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 10; concentration +16)
4th- (3+1) Dimension Door (x2), Improved Invisibility, Resilient Sphere*
3rd- (4+1) Arcane Sight, Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form, Nondetection, Twilight Knife*
2nd- (5+1) Alter Self, Darkness*, Darkvision, Detect Thoughts, Misdirection, See Invisibility
1st- (6+1) Detect Secret Doors (x2), Detect Undead (x2), Mage Armor, Magic Missile*, Shield
0- (4) Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Read Magic
______________________________________________________________
Tomorrow, Elfy's party is teleporting to one of the most dangerous places in the region (he’ll use the scrolls they were given). There's an open war going on, and on top of that, they've been recruited for a risky search and rescue op to retrieve the rebel commander's wife from a band of human zealots and mercenary ogres led by a mysterious leader (actually a vicious rakshasa), “by any means necessary.”
Violence is certain. The cleric and witch will handle the support and control magic. Elfy will take point invisibly and spot. If they get to the compound where she's being held, Elfy's the best in the group for finding out where she is, and assessing (and maybe removing) the obstacles to her rescue. If they succeed, they'll be very close to 12th level, and considerably wealthier. Never a dull moment!
Wizard Spells Prepared
4th- (DC 20) Improved Invisibility (x2), Dimension Door, Ice Storm*
3rd- (DC 19) Fireball (x3)*, Fly
2nd- (DC 18) Acid Arrow (x2), See Invisibility, Scorching Ray (x3)*
1st- (DC 17) Magic Missile (x4)* Shocking Grasp (x2)*
0- (DC 16) Dancing Lights*, Detect Magic, Message, Ray of Frost*,
* Evocation, +1 damage
Different job, different magic.
Why is he better at this stuff than a straight wizard? Adding 4d6 sneak damage to a few blasts now and then isn't the answer. It's this:
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Djelai: First off, being insulting about the kikko armor is completely uneeded.I meant no disrespect.
However, it seems that you already made up your mind. I see no point in discussing further.Have a nice game.
Then I withdraw my objection to your comment. I thought the point of a discussion was to listen to other's arguments? I was just saying that i've already laid out my point of view previously (and with lots of math) in this post, and was hoping you'd read that and respond to it. No worries, however.