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More or less, the topic up for discussion is whether or not you think Arcane armor training is a good idea on characters going into the Arcane trickster prestige class. this is assuming 3 rogue, 3 wizard, and 10 AT.
I feel the feat is an investment to get you into the higher levels, that will eventually become useless to you, but is needed to get you to those levels that you dont need it anymore. It essentially lets you use mithral chain shirt armor (of which a +5 suit only costs 26,100, for a +9 armor bonus to AC) so you can purchase other equipment to help yourself and your party survive. Sure, eventually you'll most likely pick up bracers of armor +8 at the uber high levels (and if you werent playing to very high levels, you wouldnt be playing an AT to begin with, given their extremely weak start and mediocre mid level power).
The main argument against the feat is that it's a swift action to activate it each round, and that is the same kind of action used for quicken. Think about it, most full time casters get quicken around level 11-13. That is 6th or 7th spells for a wizard, or 6th and 6th spells for a sorc type. At those levels, ATs will have access to 4th to 5th level spells, being three caster levels behind. So realistically, you'd take quicken spell at level 15 to 17, depending on what you wanted when, making it available when you could cast 6th to 7th level spells, just like when the wizard takes it. That means until those levels, that arcane armor training feat is using up an action that in most cases, you're not using every round anyway. And when you are called upon to be a flanking buddy, or run around in threatened areas, or just get in over your head, you'll be extremely grateful for the higher AC, and for the cheaper price tag associated with it.
That is my experience with it anyway. what do you guys think? I'm curious to hear other points of view on this.
I don't think Arcane Armor Training is ever worth taking in a world where Wands of Mage Armor and Shield exist.
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How do you equate +4 armor for a few hours a day, to at LEAST +4 armor, most likely far more, all the time? Especially when you are not even using your swift action for about 16 levels? It doesn't even compare. A little explanation of your point of view would be nice. Looking at cost, you're getting normally around twice the AC from the mage armor for a decent investment, but not a huge amount, especially if someone has craft arms and armor. And if you use a wand of shield on top of that, you're in even better shape.
SO, let me pose this, what would you do, in order to get your AC to a decent level at say.. level eight? At that level (33,000 WBL) you can get a +3 mithral chain shirt for a small sum of 10,100 gold, which is a +7 to AC all the time, in exchange for your swift action. not to mention that arcane tricksters dont have nearly enough spells to cast them every turn or even half the turns they are in combat until they are in the mid to high teens level wise. At least half the time they will be maneuvering, using their invis ring, or flanking in melee. On those turns, the armor is strictly superior.
I am not being combative, I am honestly curious as to your reasoning and logic. :)
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It's a tough call. Sure, it's handy, but is it as good as the other stuff you could have?
Here's what I would want to know:
What levels will the campaign run, beginning to end?
How easy is it to buy a wand?
How easy is it to buy magic armor?
How rigorously are the encumbrance rules followed? Not so much total weight, but gear in hands. If you are holding a wand of Mage armor and a wand of shield, you shouldn't be able to cast spells or take AO's until you drop one.
How highly optimized are the other players?
How much are PCs in control of the tempo of the game? In a ship campaign, encounters start some distance away, and are usually visible. That's not true in a city or dungeon.
SO, let me pose this, what would you do, in order to get your AC to a decent level at say.. level eight?
How does a typical wizard do it?
At that level (33,000 WBL) you can get a +3 mithral chain shirt for a small sum of 10,100 gold, which is a +7 to AC all the time, in exchange for your swift action.
And a feat. You're focused on the swift action and not the lost feat, which I consider to be the true problem in all of this.
But ok. For 10,100 gold:
A Wand of Mage Armor gives me 500 hours of +4 armor bonus for 750gp. A ring of protection +1 is 2k. An Amulet of Natural Armor +1 is 2k. Either a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone or a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is 5k. That's +7. Done, and for only 9750.
Or if you need it to be "all the time" instead of for hours:
+2 Mithral Buckler (+3 AC, 5k) and +2 Silken Ceremonial Armor (+3 AC, 4180). 9180 gp and one less AC, but you have your feat back.
not to mention that arcane tricksters dont have nearly enough spells to cast them every turn or even half the turns they are in combat until they are in the mid to high teens level wise. At least half the time they will be maneuvering, using their invis ring, or flanking in melee. On those turns, the armor is strictly superior.
Well, first, when I think of an arcane trickster, I immediately think of a Ninja 1/Vivisectionist 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster throwing Scorching rays (and eventually Contagious Flame) like there's no tomorrow.
Rogue 3/Wizard 3 is problematic, because you lose a lot of spells. Maybe Rogue 1/Vivisectionist 1/Wizard 3? Then your first level of Arcane Trickster gets you 3rd level spells, which isn't too bad.
But yeah, ultimately, my point is that your feats are precious and wasting a feat to wear more armor is not worth it, even without discussing the swift action.
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Mplindus:
Yes, wizard's do it. but an AT is not a wizard, not even close. he is the corpse. he goes off, by himself, scouting and trapping. He is often in melee, providing flanking support for the melee classes, and doing sneak attack with touch spells like elemental touch. Rocking d6s for HPs means that you are in FAR greater need of higher AC than a wizard, who can happily stand in the back and hang out, lobbing spells and support.
I dislike Sorcerer ATs as it cuts down significantly on your number of skill points, so much so that you cease being able to perform a lot of your jobs. ATs are not blasters, that is what a base line sorc is for. ATs are scouts, trappers, flankers and problem solvers, who can do LOTs of damage, in a short amount of time. Being a sorc just means that you are unable to change your spell list to suit your job. What if you are doing an infiltration instead of a straight-up fight? What if it's under water? In the air? If you want to just lob scorching ray like no tomorrow, be a straight sorc, you'll do more damage that way with metamagic than if you're an AT. As for going rogue 1/something with sneak attack 1... yes you get your casting higher, however, you lose skill points, and you lose out on evasion. you should never play an AT as the primary arcanist, so you dont have to worry about filling that slot in an ideal situation. That might not sound like much, but d6s for HPs and doing all the things the rogue is expected to do, you will die horribly without evasion, (and the extra rogue feat at level 2 is great) this I have found out from experience. I suppose I don't see 5 points of extra AC for a feat that much of a 'waste', many people consider dodge a decent green-level feat for rogues, and that's just +1.
As for the silken ceremonial armor. i thought about it. But the mithral chain shirt +2. and mithral buckler +2, for 1k more than what you listed, gives 6 armor and 3 shield. that plus dex of 18 is 23 right there. add in a RoP +1 and amulet of natural armor +1 and it's 25. At level eight where we're at, 22 is not nearly enough to actually go into combat and expect not to have your d6 HP butt beaten down in a round.
And if you really wanna min/max it. Go for +2 mithral chain shirt for 5100, +1 mithral buckler for 2000, RoP +1 for 2k, amulet of NA +1 for 2k. That is approx 11200, for +10. That plus your dex of +4 is 24 at a stand-still.
Rudolf:
What levels will the campaign run, beginning to end?
-First to 23rd, it is savage tides, the old AP converted to pathfinder.
How easy is it to buy a wand?
-Relatively difficult at the moment, after level six or so, you spend a LARGE amount of time away from civilization, but it is possible.
How easy is it to buy magic armor?
-Easier, considering we have someone with craft arms and armor, who purchased a stockpile of crafting supplies, however, we can use shadow walk to get back to a town if we have down time, we purchased several scrolls of it before we left the capital.
How rigorously are the encumbrance rules followed? Not so much total weight, but gear in hands. If you are holding a wand of Mage armor and a wand of shield, you shouldn't be able to cast spells or take AO's until you drop one.
-Those are followed by the book. You would have to start with them out, use one, drop it, (or move action to put it away) then use the other next round. most of the time, first round i use my ring of invisibility for my standard action if it's not up, or I blast someone if i have the drop on them. I dont like to use it buffing.
How highly optimized are the other players?
-Pretty highly optimized, this campaign has kicked our asses. we've lost three PCs in three sessions, but we only have four people, so it makes things tight.
How much are PCs in control of the tempo of the game? In a ship campaign, encounters start some distance away, and are usually visible. That's not true in a city or dungeon.
-For the most part, myself being the scout, if I do my job right, we generally have fore-warning of fights, and can prepare. However, more recently, in the wilderness we're getting jumped a lot, and our current bad guys, these monkey demons, have invisibility at will, so they are getting the jump on us a lot.
To both: My big issue is that without arcane armor training, my AC ends up many points lower, putting it from 25 at a stand still (at level eight) with no buffing, to something around 21-22, dependent on spells. And a lot of the stuff we're fighting has dispel magic or the greater version at will, making reliance on low-level spells from wands and the like very iffy.
if you want better armor at 8th level
+2 mithril kikko costs 8,030 gold pieces, 2,070 gold cheaper than a +3 mithril shirt, and is completely identical for all intents and purposes
+7 AC, +6 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 10% ASF, Light Armor, no penalty for non-proficiency.
that can save you money for a ring of protection +1, an amulet of natural armor, a handy haversack, half the price of a +2 stat or +2 resistance item, 2 +1 stat items, a +1 stat item and a +1 resistance item, 40% of a jingasa of the fortunate soldier, 2 fully charged wands of infernal healing or cure light wounds and 57 platinum pieces in change, or the purchase of 12 3rd level scrolls and 8 1st level scrolls, crafting of 24 and 16 respectively.
or; you can have +2 mithril kikko and a +1 mithril buckler for 10,035 and have +9 AC.
Lumiere: Hmm my GM tends to hate eastern stuff, but I'll see what I can get out of him, that's a great idea.
the kikko stats are also good for representing brigandine, because they are nearly the same thing.
much like how people in the west also had armored belts, but didn't neccessarily call them haramaki.
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I've played an AT in PF from 1-22 (went rogue3/sorc(fae)4/AT). I took Arcane Armor Training, and used mithral chain shirt (I only had the CRB to work with when I was in this campaign). You will feel a slight swift action pinch once you hit the teens, but there is a built in safety valve in AT - you can choose to cast some spells each day with swift/silent applied. No ASF for still spells. So on rounds where I quickened things my normal spells were still/silent. On other rounds I used my swift to ignore ASF. Worked pretty well.
If you feel it's only useful at lower levels, see if your GM is using the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign. Use it at low levels then ditch it once you don't need it any more.
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How do you equate +4 armor for a few hours a day, to at LEAST +4 armor, most likely far more, all the time? Especially when you are not even using your swift action for about 16 levels? It doesn't even compare. A little explanation of your point of view would be nice. Looking at cost, you're getting normally around twice the AC from the mage armor for a decent investment, but not a huge amount, especially if someone has craft arms and armor. And if you use a wand of shield on top of that, you're in even better shape.
Here's a similar suggestion... A Pearl of Power 1 costs 1000gp, not much more than that 1st level wand. Memorize mage armor and cast it for hours per level, then later in the day, you can recast it using the pearl. Eventually, you won't even need to do this, and you can use the pearl for another spell.
Or, get yourself a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend. This is a great investment that will serve you for a lot more than mage armor.
I think that you are looking at the benefits of Arcane Armor Training, and acknowledging the downside of requiring a swift action. There is another downside, however. The opportunity cost of the feat. What other feat aren't you going to have because you took that one?
As to the +7 to AC all of the time thing, bear in mind that getting +4 to AC practically all of the time doesn't take that much investment, so we're really talking +3 to AC (over mage armor). I think that +3 is probably worth the investment in gold, and probably worth losing your swift action (at 8th level at least), but I'm not sure I couldn't find something else I'd want more for a feat.
I've never had a hard time getting to a decent AC with arcane casters (even without Arcane Armor Training), and that doesn't even include spells like mirror image, which have a much greater impact that a few extra points of AC.
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Never thought of the tricky spells thing Ryric, thanks, that helps a lot.
Heymitch: True, but with the magic Kikko, at level 8 you can be rocking 8 points of AC from it. that's twice as much as mage armor. Another thing is, I already have all the 'blue' feats from the AT guides, and I honestly can't think of another one I'd like to have. Also, if you could show me HOW you get as good of an AC without arcane armor training, i'd love to see the numbers, as I cannot figure out a way. An AT with AAT will always end up with five to six more points of AC than one without, by my reckoning. and that makes a HUGE diff early to mid levels, and at least some diff high levels.
To help, here's my build. The reason Spell penetration is so late, is because as an Elf, I get spell penetration for free racially, so I consider spell pen to be like greater spell pet at that point. But I honestly cannot think about any more feats I'd like.
Str 7
Dex 16+2
Con 16-2
Int 17+2 (all)
Wis 10
Cha 7
Trait: Magical Knack
Trait: Reactionary
Trait: Magical Lineage: Battering Blast
Flaw: Attached
Racial: Arcane Focus
Racial: Darkvision
SChool: Evocation (admixture)
Prohibited: Necromancy & Enchantment
Favored Class: Skills (3), HPs (4)
1- Toughness
2T Finesse Rogue
3- Arcane Armor Training
5- Improved Initiative
7- Great Fortitude
9- Spell Focus: Evocation
11- Persistent Spell
13- Intensify Spell
15- Quicken Spell
17- Spell Penetration
18WB Greater Spell Penetration or Spell Perfection
19- Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
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Heymitch: True, but with the magic Kikko, at level 8 you can be rocking 8 points of AC from it. that's twice as much as mage armor. Another thing is, I already have all the 'blue' feats from the AT guides, and I honestly can't think of another one I'd like to have. Also, if you could show me HOW you get as good of an AC without arcane armor training, i'd love to see the numbers, as I cannot figure out a way. An AT with AAT will always end up with five to six more points of AC than one without, by my reckoning. and that makes a HUGE diff early to mid levels, and at least some diff high levels.
Xavier: I don't say that I can get AC as high without Arcane Armor Training as with it, just that I've never had a problem getting a respectable AC for a caster.
I generally do that by planning for a defensive build, and making sacrifices to get there.
I tend to favor Sorcerers over Wizards (just my preference...I like spontaneous casting), so I'll do things like...
Empyreal Sorcerer with a dip into Monk or...
A Lore Oracle dip with almost any Sorcerer bloodline or...
Monk with Kensai Magus or...
A Sorcerer Bloodline that gives a natural armor bonus, like Draconic.
I don't think my GM would allow kikko armor, so my alternative would be a mithral chain shirt.
Also, am I missing something? Is your GM allowing you to take 2 Magic traits?
Heymitch: True, but with the magic Kikko, at level 8 you can be rocking 8 points of AC from it. that's twice as much as mage armor. Another thing is, I already have all the 'blue' feats from the AT guides, and I honestly can't think of another one I'd like to have. Also, if you could show me HOW you get as good of an AC without arcane armor training, i'd love to see the numbers, as I cannot figure out a way. An AT with AAT will always end up with five to six more points of AC than one without, by my reckoning. and that makes a HUGE diff early to mid levels, and at least some diff high levels.Xavier: I don't say that I can get AC as high without Arcane Armor Training as with it, just that I've never had a problem getting a respectable AC for a caster.
I generally do that by planning for a defensive build, and making sacrifices to get there.
I tend to favor Sorcerers over Wizards (just my preference...I like spontaneous casting), so I'll do things like...
Empyreal Sorcerer with a dip into Monk or...
A Lore Oracle dip with almost any Sorcerer bloodline or...
Monk with Kensai Magus or...
A Sorcerer Bloodline that gives a natural armor bonus, like Draconic.I don't think my GM would allow kikko armor, so my alternative would be a mithral chain shirt.
Also, am I missing something? Is your GM allowing you to take 2 Magic traits?
issues with Kikko because it is oriental?
Cross out "Kikko" and Write "Brigandine." problem solved. it's what Ravingdork does.
i mean Kikko, is merely a Japanese form of Brigandine.
Edit; or you can just eat the 10% failure, i doubt most DMs will care about it with the exception of the most restrictive ones out there.
Arcane Armor Training can make a lot of sense from a resource management (wealth-by-level and spell slot) perspective during low and middle levels (about 3rd-10th).
The biggest advantage mage armor and a pearl of power (1st) (1,000 gp) has over a mithral chain shirt (1,100 gp) is against incorporeal touch attacks; keeping a scroll of mage armor handy for those circumstances is generally enough for many campaigns. Basically, it's 125 gp (112 gp, 5 sp for wizards that keep Scribe Scroll) more to free up a 1st level spell slot during those levels (that's an extra color spray or enlarge person or magic missile). The mithral chain shirt also isn't subject to dispel magic and provides protection for the entire day (including rest periods) before 12th level.
Another advantage is the AC bonus against most attacks can be increased for much less than a comparable AC value from bracers of armor. Granted, you have a limit on how much your Dex bonus counts, but most arcane tricksters aren't going to have the 24+ Dex (even after enhancement bonuses to Dex) to make it a factor.
Once it becomes less useful, you always have the option of retraining the feat (as detailed in Ultimate Campaign), taking 5 days and costing 50 gp x character level. Alternately, you could instead wear darkleaf cloth studded leather (+3 armor, +7 max. Dex, 5% failure chance; 775 gp) and accept that 1 spell in 20 will fail when casting a non-Stilled spell that normally has a somatic component in a round when using Quicken Spell (about a 9.75% chance that one or both spells will fail when trying to cast two spells in the same round if both spells have somatic components). With Still Spell and proper planning, that should not be very common.
or, eat a 10% arcane failure (after mithril) and wear mithril kikko
4,030 versus 1100 for all the same stats with an additional +1 AC tacked on. effectively, 2,930 for an additional +1 AC at no other penalty.
Mithril Kikko is highly affordable by 7th level and takes a bit of saving up by 5th.
best light armor in the game you can wear without proficiency.
DM hates that it is oriental?
tell him that Kikko is merely the Japanese word for Brigandine and that you don't care what nationality your brigandine comes from, you merely want a suit of mithril brigandine because it provides decent protection for a reasonable price at the high levels.
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Yup. I still dont think arcane armor training is a waste for this character. pretty much the ONLY characters i'd ever take it for is arcane tricksters and hellknight signifiers (arcane version). I explained the kikko thing and he's okay with it. So gonna go with that. And as it was brought up. tricky spells, plus the low spell failure means it wont even be an issue most of the time. as for taking two magical traits, you're right, we didnt even notice that, so i'll have to take something else in the place of it. Thanks for catching it. still gonna spell perfect battering blast, it's freaking brutal with a trickster when intensified. at 16th level you've got 3 blasts, doing 8d6 each, and bull rushing. one with sneak attack, and it's force damage (big plus in savage tide, since everything is a freaking demon).
Thanks for the GREAT advice and friendly/interesting conversation guys, this is exactly what I wanted.
To help, here's my build.
Your character looks just so very different from any kind of Arcane Trickster I would ever build that I'm not sure any of my advice would really help you. Sorry, I just don't even know what you're going for.
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To help, here's my build.Your character looks just so very different from any kind of Arcane Trickster I would ever build that I'm not sure any of my advice would really help you. Sorry, I just don't even know what you're going for.
Well, he's not built to be a blaster, that's not what ATs excel at. sorcs do. ATs are good at being problem solvers, damage dealers (limited because of spells), flankers, trappers and scouts. your perspective is still valuable, regardless, thank you. ^_^
Rudolf Kraus: Why wouldn't ti work? It seems to work just fine to me.
Well, he's not built to be a blaster, that's not what ATs excel at.
Yeah, see, that's kind of all I see them as being good at. If you're giving up 2-3 levels of spellcasting for sneak attack, you better damn well be using it.
None of the class abilities really help with anything but blasting.
A Ninja 1/Vivisectionist 1/Crossblooded Orc/Draconic(fire) Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster 5 can fight while Greater Invisibile and throw Scorching Rays for 9d6+18 damage each (27d6+54 for the whole spell).
Why would you care about sneak attack on a spellcaster if you're not built to blast?
sorcs do.
Part of why I would always build an AT on a Sorcerer chassis.
ATs are good at being problem solvers, damage dealers (limited because of spells), flankers, trappers and scouts.
I guess I just don't see how you're better at any of those things except blasting than a straight Wizard.
If it works for you, though, then that's awesome--I still don't think Arcane Armor Training is worth a feat, but it seems better for your playstyle than my recommendations.
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I just dont think of combat and encounter as nothing but how much damage you deal. and the thing is, while wizards can deal with all of those things, they expend resources doing so, ATs dont. read the highly regarded experts guide to arcane tricksters, he lays it out way better than I can. I've played several ATs and they are great.
Well, first, when I think of an arcane trickster, I immediately think of a Ninja 1/Vivisectionist 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster throwing Scorching rays (and eventually Contagious Flame) like there's no tomorrow.
Rogue 3/Wizard 3 is problematic, because you lose a lot of spells. Maybe Rogue 1/Vivisectionist 1/Wizard 3? Then your first level of Arcane Trickster gets you 3rd level spells, which isn't too bad.
I don't believe that your build actually works. Vivisectionist levels stack with rogue levels (or ninja levels) for determining sneak attack, you don't gain the sneak attack for both classes.
"At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on)."
That blows. Ninja 1/Assassin 1 then. Oh well.
yeah, the sorc AT is looking worse and worse since the vivisectionist thing doesnt work.
the reason why is the sorcerer's 1 level delay.
it is one of my pet peeves with spontaneous casting, it delays PRC entry, plus a sorcerer already has fewer features than a wizard, fewer spells known, fewer feats, and an inferior casting stat.
3 bonus feats versus 4
bloodline powers are generally inferior to school powers
cha is an inferior casting stat to int, because skill points are much cooler and better than a social bonus
the list of class skills is generally inferior unless you don't mind that UMD is merely a free trait, and a wizard can invest in UMD and be fine with a trait
scribe scroll is better than eschew materials
the delay delays PRC entry
a sorcerer doesn't have enough skill points to cover the relevant skills required to fullfill it's role as a face (perception and umd are doable, but needs extra investment for diplomacy and sense motive)
what are the wizard's weaknesses?
you have to carry a pouch of components to utilize your spells, an item that can be bought for pocket change, and isn't a practical sunder item during combat due to being a fine sized item using the wizard's massive dexterity bonus.
and you have to carry a spellbook that isn't a valid target in combat either due to the difficulty of getting to it unharmed. so i doubt it will be stolen. lots of preparation can protect it.
hardly a cost for a class that is outright superior otherwise.
and hardly equal to the sorcerers extra spells per day, because the wizard can prepare anything they please in one minute with the right discovery.
yeah, the sorc AT is looking worse and worse since the vivisectionist thing doesnt work.
I know a lot of people don't like the idea but i really think the magus is a strong class for the AT. You get:
Armored casting
3/4 bab
Extra attacks each turn
Int based spell casting for extra skills
Lots of blast spells to sneak attack with
Arcane pool and Magus arcana which can boost your abilities.
Spell strike which is basically TWF
Levels 1-15 I think the magus is better than the Wiz/Sorc AT. once you get past that the higher spell slots begin to take over but you can still be an effective character. the magus AT plays more like a rogue who can cast rather than a blaster with SA, which sounds like it's your style.
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I disagree and here's why. The magus has a very limited spell list. Almost entirely blasting with a small ammount of utility. The wizard has a MASSIVE list of spells to pick from, and if you grab the right scrolls, you can tailor your spell list firmly to whatever you're doing. For example, two sessions ago, the party was approaching an enemy stronghold. They wanted to scout it out, not like normal, but the entire dungeon. I memorized nondetection, mislead, dimension door, charm spells, some hold spells, fly, knock, that sort of thing. and i worked my way through the entire dungeon and mapped it out. i almost got caught, but charmed and held two guards before they knew where i was or what was going on, cast fly, and dimension doored several hundred feet up in the air, invis, and flew away. and that was all possible because i had used mislead on a captured scout to have the same alignment as the rest of the guys in the castle, and nondetection. when we went back into the base, i memorized a combination of disable (i had found they have a bad will save), and blasting with secondary effects, and supported the party with damage and flanking and some disables. Just the way I roll, and it worked well.
the magus is a decent idea, but you lose so many of your abilities for it (the magus ones). the other thing is, the campaign is going to 23, so i wanna have my ninth level spells. and AT with time stop or wish is fun to think about. :)
For example, two sessions ago, the party was approaching an enemy stronghold. They wanted to scout it out, not like normal, but the entire dungeon. I memorized nondetection, mislead, dimension door, charm spells, some hold spells, fly, knock, that sort of thing. and i worked my way through the entire dungeon and mapped it out. i almost got caught, but charmed and held two guards before they knew where i was or what was going on, cast fly, and dimension doored several hundred feet up in the air, invis, and flew away. and that was all possible because i had used mislead on a captured scout to have the same alignment as the rest of the guys in the castle, and nondetection.
Sorry for harping on this, but if you don't mind, let me ask:
What part of what you did could not have been done by a straight Wizard (who, incidentally, would have had a higher level of spells to play with, too)?
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For example, two sessions ago, the party was approaching an enemy stronghold. They wanted to scout it out, not like normal, but the entire dungeon. I memorized nondetection, mislead, dimension door, charm spells, some hold spells, fly, knock, that sort of thing. and i worked my way through the entire dungeon and mapped it out. i almost got caught, but charmed and held two guards before they knew where i was or what was going on, cast fly, and dimension doored several hundred feet up in the air, invis, and flew away. and that was all possible because i had used mislead on a captured scout to have the same alignment as the rest of the guys in the castle, and nondetection.Sorry for harping on this, but if you don't mind, let me ask:
What part of what you did could not have been done by a straight Wizard (who, incidentally, would have had a higher level of spells to play with, too)?
the parts I left out. picking the longs without using knock (there were about a dozen. disabling about seven traps, and sneak attacking a few guards with saps to knock them out without killing them. I did 90% of this without resources. Also, i did a large majority of it with stealth, not invisibility. then, when we went back into the castle. I was the scout again, got ambushed twice (they had evidently found evidence of my passing, despite my efforts), and only survived because of my high AC and melee ability. I was able to hold them off with defensive fighting until the fighter showed up, then tumbled to flank him and used elemental touch in melee to sneak attack the guards to death. The key is that I was able to do all those things while expending about a quarter of the resources of a straight wizard. to quote a highly regarded expert...
"Party Role:
You're the ninja/rogue with something extra. It bears repeating.
In one discussion of the AT on the Paizo boards, someone referred to an AT he played in 3.x as “MacGyver with spells.” This is an excellent description of how the AT works, and how he contributes. Regardless of your party's makeup, the AT can fill the stealthy skill-monkey role of the bard, ninja or rogue, and has the magic to solve or bypass some problems that they can't. He can also cast arcane spells like a sorcerer or wizard, and can fill that role to some degree, if needed. He's more effective, though, if there's another dedicated full caster taking care of the “god” role. The AT is a secondary party buffer at best, but by coordinating with your other caster(s), you can cover a lot of bases.
Rogues can use magic items like wands and scrolls, etc., but that gets expensive, fast, and they have to roll a check every time. The AT can reliably use the best spell list in the game, essentially for free.
So, when it's time for somebody to turn invisible, climb silently over the wall, knock out the guards, kill the one guard who made his save with a single cantrip, coup de grace the others while they're still knocked out, find and disable the pit trap, then unlock and open the gates from the inside, there's just one character in the group who can do all of that by himself without breaking much of a sweat, or expending a fortune in spells or magic items. It was all you, dog. At seventh level.
A rogue could do all that with the right scrolls and a few successful UMD checks (he's hosed if he fails one, though). A wizard could do most of that, by using a lot more magic than the AT needed (assuming he had it prepared), though he might not do so well with the trap.
The AT did it with the lowest expenditure of resources, and has plenty left over for whatever happens next. He needed two low-level spells, a cantrip, two climb checks, some stealth rolls at +20, a weapon and a tool kit. Take a bow, young Skywalker. The force is with you!
He could have also managed all that in other ways than the methods used here, depending on his spell and skill selection. The point is, “Arcane Trickster” is the name of the class, and having tricks up your sleeve is what makes you fun to play. "
As long as we're quoting the guide, let me add this:
"Arcane Armor Training- No spell failure chance for casting in light armor, which you are already proficient with. I took a lot of grief for making this blue, but if you want to make it through the low and mid levels, good armor is the cheapest way to help you avoid getting killed before you ever see the higher levels. You can eventually afford to not wear armor when you’re fabulously wealthy. This feat will keep you going while you spend gold on all that other stuff you need to stay alive. The downside is that casting spells with a somatic component in armor costs you a swift action, as does casting a Quickened spell with a feat or a rod.
Once you have the money for a Quicken rod(s), (35,000 or 75,500) and the ring (64,000), and you’re 16th level, you’ll maybe want to say goodbye to the trusty +5 Mithral Shirt (+9 armor AC; 26,100) you’ve had for five levels. You’ll be getting other protective items, too, along the way, none of which are cheap. As a forward scout with the hit points of a sor/wiz +4, you can’t afford to get hit too often.
Starting at 16th level, you could ignore some of the recommended feats, including this one. Mage Armor takes a slot or an item and a standard action, and you won’t have it 24/7. The AT needs his +4 AC up all the time. This guide is about playing an AT at all levels, in the role of a recon specialist, caster, sniper and not-so-infrequent flanker, not just what works starting with a fresh character sheet and 315,000 gp.
If you don’t want that feat, I can see your point. I can also see you dying a lot because your AC could have been 4+ higher from levels 3-10, when other items that raise your AC are still quite costly. Scouting, flanking and spellcasting will be considerably more dangerous for you in the early levels, when you can’t take much of a beating, and your spells can fizzle at random. Just something to think about. It’ll be a long haul before you get your Ph.D. in Arcane Trickery.
And, even once you have a +8 ring, you might want to keep the armor for those sneaky jobs where you don’t want to cast quickened spells, but merely go undetected. The Shadow, greater ability will add +15 to your stealth for 33,750 gp."
It's a matter of how you plan to operate in your party, really.
I say you're a kick-ass scout who just happens to be able to do good damage with the occasional blast. You can focus towards either end of that spectrum. Sorcerers can spam blasts, but don't get nearly as many skill points as wizard ATs, so they're not as good at the scouting.
I show several builds in the guide; some with AAP, some without. For the kick-ass scout, though, you need some serious AC, because your job is to sneak off by yourself, literally looking for trouble.
Looks to me like Xavier has a good build going. He concentrates on feats that make his spells work, which is more important than doing 100d6, only to have it fizzle because you can't beat the SR, or let them save for half because your DC is easy to beat.
My tricksters generally don't do all that much blasting. It's just that when they do, it's gonna hurt! ;)
i don't agree that the 10% arcane failure is a big issue
but i do agree that for any spellcaster, armor is important until you can reliably afford the big non armor options.
i have simply eaten the 10% failure and been fine
if you have a DM that allows 3.5 edition goods. the following 2 things really help an arcane trickster
the Twilight Armor Enchantment makes the Mithril Shirt and Mithril Kikko into perfect arcane armor for the price of an additional +1 bonus instead of spending a feat and swift action,
and the practiced spellcaster feat makes up twice the caster levels of magical knack, can be taken once per spellcasting class, and doesn't eat your magic trait. and they can make up 1 more lost caster level beyond that. freeing up limited traits for a concentration, fortitude, or initiative trait.
flaws also help if 3.5 stuff applies, a general guideline for a 3.5 flaw is -4 to 2 useless skills, -3 to an already good saving throw, -1 to armor class (made up by the armor), -10 to one useless skill, -2 to one type of manuever or attack style.
D&D Wiki has a larger list of experimental flaws.
Well, if you bring in 3.x stuff, everything changes.
Well, if you bring in 3.x stuff, everything changes.
but even then
10 percent arcane failure isn't a big deal, except in sessions where you have horrid luck.
i eat it all the time
sometimes, the DM just doesn't care and forgets i am wearing Mithril Kikko and a Mithril buckler on the grounds that they are "OMG, mithril"
even on a darn wizard or sorcerer.
It doesn't matter if you flub a cantrip. Failing a Dimension Door can put you in a world of hurt.
If you wear armor past 10th level (and not all tricksters do), it's a must-have, IMHO.
It doesn't matter if you flub a cantrip. Failing a Dimension Door can put you in a world of hurt.
If you wear armor past 10th level (and not all tricksters do), it's a must-have, IMHO.
i doubt i go through more than 10 spells in a single game session. and failing 10% of the time isn't too bad.
yes, failing a dimension door can hurt you.
oh wait, dimension door doesn't have somatic components, only verbal. so no failure on dimension door, hell, my wizards all wear armor past 5th level (usually mithril kikko with a mithril buckler).
it's not that 10% cannot hurt you, it is that it is unlikely to do any meaningful harm when i doubt you are really casting more than 10 spells in one session. not counting consumables.
and that is with 5-7 hour sessions in a group of 15 people with 4 hour combats.
and i only roll that 10% or less, like twice per 5 sessions anyway.
D. Door was a bad example.
How about blasts? At high levels, you have a way around that, for a while.
And I'm not surprised your GM forgets your spell failure chance, and you just roll with it. 15 people is a bit much for me...
D. Door was a bad example.
How about blasts? At high levels, you have a way around that, for a while.
And I'm not surprised your GM forgets your spell failure chance, and you just roll with it. 15 people is a bit much for me...
i rarely blast as neither a wizard nor an AT
i set up a few buffs and summons
the party members kill stuff for me. i'm just there to buff, use the infernal healing wands, and do the skill monkey stuff.
yeah, i may fireball a swarm, but most of my SA spells are cantrips augmented by a blur effect from a minor cloak of displacement. and before that, i cast blur.
Well for one I would go sorcerer, for two I would use ninja
If I was using wizard I would also use alchemist vivisectionist,
Fourthly I would only use one spell caster level, but also be an aasimar with their daylight SLA
There's still the small problem of you thinking an SLA is a spell.
D. Door was a bad example.
How about blasts? At high levels, you have a way around that, for a while.
And I'm not surprised your GM forgets your spell failure chance, and you just roll with it. 15 people is a bit much for me...
i rarely blast as neither a wizard nor an AT
i set up a few buffs and summons
the party members kill stuff for me. i'm just there to buff, use the infernal healing wands, and do the skill monkey stuff.
yeah, i may fireball a swarm, but most of my SA spells are cantrips augmented by a blur effect from a minor cloak of displacement. and before that, i cast blur.
And you're a Japanese girl. And you use 3.x. With 15 people.
I just play Pathfinder.
There's still the small problem of you thinking an SLA is a spell.Well for one I would go sorcerer, for two I would use ninja
If I was using wizard I would also use alchemist vivisectionist,
Fourthly I would only use one spell caster level, but also be an aasimar with their daylight SLA
it is part of a Recent FAQ
SLAs qualify you for Arcane Strike, and For Item Creation feats
Logical step now that they qualify you for PRCs
meaning an Aasimaar Rogue 3/Sorcerer 1 can become an Arcane Trickster at 4th level and be a more roguish AT. at 14th level, they would only have 5th level spells, but 7d6 Sneak Attack, Surprise spells, and a bloodline arcana.
a Tiefling Rogue 3/Wizard 1 could do the same.
an Aasimaar Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1 could be an eldritch knight by level 3
an aasimaar oracle 4/sorcerer 1 could be a mystic theurge