Epic Pathfinder Handbook: Custom rules for characters beyond 20th level

[Lord Nequam]

Based on my experience with epic Pathfinder campaigns, I've written a handbook for epic-level Pathfinder. (PDF warning)

These rules start with those from the D&D 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, but expand on areas that I thought were strong and replace others that just didn't work for me or my players.

- Includes epic progressions for all 11 core classes and 8 base classes.
- Includes over 300 epic feats, many focused on keeping non-caster characters both viable and interesting.
- Epic-level magic now focuses on metamagic (with over 40 new, epic metamagic feats)

This material is 100% free and I always welcome criticism and feedback. While I have run games using these rules and done my best to edit the document, there are doubtless both typos and oversights in game mechanics that I've missed.

For my other Pathfinder materials (of which there is admittedly only one, right now), you can stop by my website: http://www.jessejackjones.com/pathfinder

I hope you enjoy!

[edduardco]

I was doing something similar to this, let me give a check and come with some feedback

[David knott 242]

I found and downloaded version 1.3 of your Epic Pathfinder handbook a few months ago and shared it with my gaming group as the best way to take our campaign past 20th level if we ever get that far. My only regret was that I could not figure out how to contact you with a few comments -- items that were trivial enough that we could have worked around them. I will save my comments until I have had the chance to read through the new version.

[+5 Toaster]

I am not sure how i feel about the launching palm feat, especially when compared to the awesome blow feat.

[Lord Nequam]

@edduradco - I look forward to hearing any insight your own work has afforded you and to reading your project, when you decide to release it.

@David knott 242 - I'm glad some of my work has helped give you ideas. There weren't a lot of mechanical changes between 1.3 and 1.4, so I imagine your comments are still valid and I'd love to hear them when you have a chance.

@+5 Toaster - One of the biggest issues for me is making an epic feat then going and discovering it is too close to an existing non-epic feat. As far as the Awesome Blow feat, though, I'm not too concerned because it is only available for monsters and requires a dedicated action to accomplish. Launching Palm, meanwhile, allows you to make it as part of a regular attack action, so you could add it to the last attack of a full attack to send a foe flying away once you're done with them. Or, if you're surrounded, you could split up every attack in a full attack action (which could hit all 8 squares around you for a monk with Perfect Flurry of Blows) and clear the space around you of foes. Ultimately, I think Launching Palm is different enough to justify its existence and powerful enough to qualify as an epic feat.

[clff rice]

Overall i like the rules BUT there is one gripe i found so far...

The empty levels in the epic progressions is kinda a turn off. makes the whole things feel like 3.0 e again. One of the cool things about pathfinder is the fact you get new abilities each level, the blank levels kinda feel like an flavorful waste considering that all other mechanics grow at the same rate (Epic save and Epic attack bonus) True your Epic feats mitigate this a little bit but still No blank levels feel like an essential thing for a pathfinder epic game.

LOVE that you did away with the Broken epic Spellcasting

[+5 Toaster]

Well to be fair the brother of the seal prc gets awesome blow.
Do you think the prereqs on absolute wildshape are a little harsh? I know its a powerful feat but not seeing unril level 39 is a hard break.

[Evil Lincoln]

I'm just gonna put a big old dot right here.

[Lord Nequam]

@clff rice - That is a valid point and one I've been considering a lot, actually. I know that having distinct character growth every level is a core principal in Pathfinder, but to be honest, I couldn't think of anything that wouldn't either (a) be trivial to the point of unimportance or (b) spiral out of control in power due to the open-ended nature of epic levels. I think the closest I got was the idea of "micro-feats," which were additional customization options you got on the off levels, where you could get 1-point skill boosts, a couple of extra hit points, DC bonuses against specific spells or conditions, and things like that, but I was unsure of how I felt compared to the power level of the rest of the stuff you were getting...

@+5 Toaster - Ah, see, I didn't know that about Brother of the Seal. Prestige classes are probably the part of Pathfinder I've paid the least attention to. And as for Absolute Wildshape, you're probably right. Part of it is that I wanted to push some of the feats--like Cataclysmic Spell, Battlegod, and the Ascent line--out a bit further, to make epic levels feel 'deeper,' rather than almost everything being available right from the get-go. But I may have pushed Absolute Wildshape out a bit far, compared to what it does for you.

@Evil Lincoln - I...I don't know what that means. Is a dot a good thing?

[edduardco]

So this is my proposal for advancing the core classes into Epic Classes some ones were really difficult to adjust (Paladin, Ranger and Fighter I'm seeing you) and I'm not completely sure about how well balanced they are.

@Lord Nequam: is alright if I post this here or do you prefer that I start a new thread?

[Lord Nequam]

@edduardco - I have no problem with you posting this here.

Balance in your proposal does seem as if it would be an issue; for instance, characters like fighters get not only a +1 BAB progression but their Weapon Training ability. By the time they hit, say, 40th level, they would have a 10-point advantage (not including feats only they have access to like Greater Weapon Focus) on to-hit rolls versus other combat classes. Not that many groups GET to level 40, admittedly...

For all its weaknesses, I do think that the old D&D epic rules were right to flatten growth in BAB and Saves at epic levels. Over time and because of feats and such, the differences between classes will only grow more pronounced, but the system helps keep them a little closer for a bit longer.

[Ruick]

Dot means that you post in a thread so that it shows with a dot next to its title when browsing the boards so it is easier to find later.

Also Dot!

[edduardco]

The two main reasons to keep the base attack and saving throw progression was: first, the suggestions provided by Paizo in the Core Rulebook, and second, because monsters use the same progression. I agree the math can broke at high levels but to fix that issue will require a restructuration of the whole system, perhaps in Pathfinder 2.0

Besides this is also like you mention on the document, is necessary the cooperation between players and GM for this to work and have fun.

I will try to post some other things, classes are the more complete I have right now.

[Orthos]

Considering my current Kingmaker game is looking very much like we're headed for post-20th before we reach the endgame... dot for great interest.

[Lord Manticore]

dotting for interest....

I just dl'd this to my tablet so I can start pouring over the contents. It'll take me a couple of days, but I'd love to provide feedback soonest.

[David knott 242]

Okay, I will start with an easy pair of questions related to the epic bonus feat progressions:

1) Is there any particular reason that the bonus feat per 4 levels starts at 22nd level rather than more obvious 24th? If you do not take your campaign to 29th level or beyond, it is actually better to have the bonus feat per 4 levels progression than the bonus feat per 3 levels.

2) Why do rangers (a bonus feat per 2 levels class) get their bonus feats at the odd levels rather than the even levels?

[j b 200]

You know what, I have only skimmed a few pages, but major kudos for pounding out a 100+ page book for the fun of it. Regardless of how I feel about it once I'm done reading, that is a major accomplishment in and of itself.

[Falcar]

I am highly interested in this and will be placing a dot right here.

[The Golux]

Even with mythic upcoming, I think there's room for actual experience levels and ability advances past 20th level, so I'll look at this.

[Still Learning]

The defeat illusion part of perception seems out of line. You weaken an already limited school of magic with a single already powerful skill. At the very least I think it should scale with caster level.

[Morhin]

Brilliant!

A note on how medium XP really works in PF.

enc#: XP for encounter of level #
lev#: XP for gaining a class level of #

XP = (lev# - 1) + ((enc# - 1) * 5)

where XP = 0 for 1st-level

For greater sums of XP they are sometimes rounded.

Examples:

1st-level: 0
2nd-level: 0 + ((400 * 5)) = 2,000 XP
3rd-level: 2,000 + ((600 * 5)) = 5,000 XP
4th-level: 5,000 + ((800 * 5)) = 9,000 XP
.
.
.
20th-level: 2,550,000 + ((204,800 * 5)) = 3,579,000 (rounded to 3,600,000 in PF)

so epic level progression should follow that pattern if consistency is sought for.

21st-level: 5,115,000 (rounded to 5,100,000)
22nd-level: 7,163,000 (rounded to 7,200,000)
.
.
.
30th-level: 114,683,000 (rounded to 114,700,000)

Since XP per encounter increases by 1,5 every even level and by 1/3 every odd level, the total XP still requires only 5 such encounters to reach next level.

For example, 39th-level encounters grant 209,715,200 XP. Five such encounters and 40th-level (3,670,011,000 XP) is reached since 39th-level was 2,621,435,000 XP.

[Lord Nequam]

@Still Learning - Perhaps I should increase it to 60 or 70 + CL (or 80 + Spell DC). Illusions are one of the schools of magic I almost never use, so it didn't really cross my mind.

@Morhin - Thank you! That is actually tremendously useful information to have. I'll have to see about incorporating it into future iterations of the Handbook.

[Caligastia]

This is good stuff; Will use!

[Abu]

Thanks for sharing.

[catman123456]

dot

[baronbloodbath]

Good job on the handbook...I want to run an Epic game now.

[macabre dragon]

Double Dot!

[Caligastia]

Isn't this what Mythic Adventures was going to be? Maybe I got my information wrong, just curious . . .

[AdamMeyers]

No, Mythic Adventures is more or less a series of templates you add to levels 1-20. It's a game-changer to the way you approach play itself, rather than an add-on for post 20.

[Distant Scholar]

Isn't this what Legendary Levels is?

[Arcanemuses]

At 21st level, a spellcaster should be able to count all their 1st level spells as cantrips/orisons. At 41st level, 2nd level spells. At 61st level, 3rd level spells. And at 81st level, 4th level spells. But that's where I draw the line.

[Forgottenprince]

Dotted for interest

[Lord Nequam]

@Distant Scholar - Legendary Levels isn't an official Paizo product (so I had never heard of it until this moment), and from what I can tell, it approaches epic levels in a different fashion from what is presented here. I would suggest interested DMs look over both rulesets and go with the one that most closely aligns with what they want out of epic-level play.

@Arcanemuses - That's actually a reallygood idea, though I may introduce feats to that effect rather than making it automatic.

[I3igAl]

I thibnk it's good that BaB and saves like in 3.0 don't scale further differently after 20.

One small problem IMO is that the Paladins Smite Evik keeps scaling further his damage will go insane, while Rsnger andd Fighter don't get anymore Weapon Training/Favored Enemies. He will sooner or later outdamage everyone.
Also Sneak Attack and Channel Smite could cause similar problems.

[Starsunder]

Awesome! I just found this, but will def be giving it a read through.

[David knott 242]

Now that things seem to have settled down a bit -- Lord Nequam, you said that only the Epic feats in the General category were not given out to any class as bonus feats, but to date no class seems to get Summoning feats as bonus feats. Logically, shouldn't those feats be available as bonus feats to Summoners?

[Kayerloth]

Dot and more dots . . . . . . .

[DonDuckie]

Fine! it's dotted... :)

[Meatpuppet]

Dotted!

[Kthulhu]

Arcanemuses wrote:

At 21st level, a spellcaster should be able to count all their 1st level spells as cantrips/orisons. At 41st level, 2nd level spells. At 61st level, 3rd level spells. And at 81st level, 4th level spells. But that's where I draw the line.

Cool.

At 21st level, non-spellcasters should get to kill any one non-deity creature within range of whatever weapon they are using per round, no save, regardless of it's level of power. At 22nd level, the range of all a non-spellcaster's weapons triples. Repeat those advancements every two levels.

[banthalo]

Had time to download the pdf, haven't had time to read. So: My first DOT!

[banthalo]

I have a question about the Spell Power mechanic (which I absolutely love, BTW): If a character has a ring of wizardry, does that get factored in when calculating your spell power?

[137ben]

Kthulhu wrote:

Arcanemuses wrote:

At 21st level, a spellcaster should be able to count all their 1st level spells as cantrips/orisons. At 41st level, 2nd level spells. At 61st level, 3rd level spells. And at 81st level, 4th level spells. But that's where I draw the line.

Cool.

At 21st level, non-spellcasters should get to kill any one non-deity creature within range of whatever weapon they are using per round, no save, regardless of it's level of power. At 22nd level, the range of all a non-spellcaster's weapons triples. Repeat those advancements every two levels.

Uh, I'm pretty sure that would be WAY more powerful than giving unlimited 1st level spells.

By 41st level, if you've invested a significant portion of your WBL into an item to boost your casting stat, you'll have so many 1st and 2nd level spells per day that they are basically unlimited, and making them at-will would just cut down on the record keeping without really affecting anything. 1st-2nd level spells aren't normally worth wasting an action on, anyways.
Also, if you have the martial character's range tripling every TWO levels (instead of every 20 levels), then by 40th level a weapon with a 10-foot reach (very low for a melee-focused character at those levels) would be able to kill anything instantly within 111 miles. The wizard next to him gets to cast a 2nd level spell as a standard action. Or cast Enlarge Person on their fighter friend to increase his range even further. Which could already be done by expending a 1st level spell slot...
I know it does sound like a powerup, but it isn't really, it just eliminates the need to track a "limited" resource that would never actually run out in actual play.
I would probably slow it down, though: you don't get unlimited 1st level spells until 31st level or something.

[Lord Nequam]

@David knott 242 - You are correct; that was an oversight on my part and will be corrected in the next edition.

@banthalo - I generally allow Rings of Wizardry to be factored into spell power, so long as they have been worn for at least 24 hours.

[Fatal Rose]

The PDF link isn't working. :-(

[Absynthyne]

Bump, could we get an updated pdf link for this? Thanks! =)

[137ben]

This version has been superseded by a new version, with a new thread. Please post on that thread instead;)