I wonder what a Blockbuster Mystic Theurge would look like now that that's opened up?
Now that the box is opened, we'll see what happens. My guess is that it'll revert back to actually needing to have a casting class.
This is the most outrageous outrage since the last time I was outraged, and frankly, I'm outraged.
I'm playing around with trying a Admixturer 3 / Theologian 7 / MT 10 now. At certain levels it'll be potentially interesting, but there's going to be some levels that really feel weak. Still, the MT capstone should make for a brutal nova, and he'll have incredible staying power.
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This has inspired me to do something amusing wiht guides and Theologians. Kbrewer has angered the GODS....be prepared.
I'm starting my tiefling blockbuster for reign of winter this Wednesday! Woot!
For something different, I plan to go Diabolist at 6th level for 6 levels. In exchange for the 8th level Admixture power and a bonus feat, he gets Improved Familiar, Augment Summoning, changing energy damage to hellfire 1/day, and 2 uses of Dim Door or 1 teleport per day.
I can't wait for 7th level, 15d6 fireballs! Woot!
When does your guide get pinned to Guide of Guides?
cheers
You need to make a guide for a blockbuster mystic theurge now. I'm looking at Empyreal sorc 1/fate/fire cleric 2/mystic theurge 9 for PFS play.
theurges need to cast 3rd level spells
You need to make a guide for a blockbuster mystic theurge now. I'm looking at Empyreal sorc 1/fate/fire cleric 2/mystic theurge 9 for PFS play.theurges need to cast 3rd level spells
Actually, it's only 2nd level spells, but that requires that you be at least a 3rd level cleric and 4th level sorcerer. Also, using a sorcerer will mean that you can use your sorc slots to cast cleric spells but not the other way around, since the combined spells ability only works for prepared spells. Mystic Theurges seem to be meant to be cleric/wizards, not cleric/sorcerers. However, if you are looking at using the arcane levels just for extra spell slots and plan on being a cleric with lower level spells but way more spell slots, a sorc/cleric could work, and CHA is a useful stat for clerics, unlike INT which is not that important.
Peet
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Actually, it's only 2nd level spells, but that requires that you be at least a 3rd level cleric and 4th level sorcerer.You need to make a guide for a blockbuster mystic theurge now. I'm looking at Empyreal sorc 1/fate/fire cleric 2/mystic theurge 9 for PFS play.theurges need to cast 3rd level spells
The bolded portion is no longer correct, as of June 6th, confirmed on Friday, July 12th. See this FAQ:
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13
***
Also, using a sorcerer will mean that you can use your sorc slots to cast cleric spells but not the other way around, since the combined spells ability only works for prepared spells. Mystic Theurges seem to be meant to be cleric/wizards, not cleric/sorcerers.
Where are you getting that idea? I don't see it anywhere in the description of the Combined Spells ability. The restriction is that you can't use your sorcerer slots to cast cleric spells you haven't prepared that day.
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. At 1st level, a mystic theurge can prepare 1st-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level slots of the other spellcasting class. Every two levels thereafter, the level of spells that can be cast in this way increases by one, to a maximum of 5th-level spells at 9th level (these spells would take up 6th-level spell slots). The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day.
Nice!
*Goes to design a theurge*
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Yes. But could I not cast a fireball, get the +2 per die and then convert all of the damage o acid since the spell is technically a "fire spell" even though I changed the damage?
This is actually one for the FAQ.
Technically yes, since nowhere in the description of the Elemental Spell feat does it say that spells altered by the feat have their descriptor changed.
However, later versions of this ability that appear in Ultimate Magic (such as the Djinni bloodline arcana, for example) do change the descriptor. I take it from this that under RAI the bonus does not apply to damage if the energy type changes, because that should change the descriptor. But RAW says it does apply if you are using the feat.
However, RAW works the other way too. If you have +2 damage per die for fire spells, and you cast cone of cold, you don't get the +2 per die even if you change the spell to fire with a feat (or rod), as the spell descriptor is still cold.
But the question for the FAQ would be: does the Elemental Spell feat change the energy descriptor of the spell? If so, sorcerer bloodlines that grant a damage bonus to spells with an energy descriptor would have their damage adjusted based on the new descriptor.
Peet
Actually, it's only 2nd level spells, but that requires that you be at least a 3rd level cleric and 4th level sorcerer.I am not sure how, given the sheer number of threads on the issue, but you seem to have missed the recent change which allows SLA's to qualify for PrC spell casting requirements.
You're right, I missed that one. I will have to look over that ruling to see if it can make it worth it.
Personally I'm not a big fan of races with SLAs but it could be interesting. Since Aasimar are legal for PFS play it has potential.
Peet
Also, using a sorcerer will mean that you can use your sorc slots to cast cleric spells but not the other way around, since the combined spells ability only works for prepared spells. Mystic Theurges seem to be meant to be cleric/wizards, not cleric/sorcerers.Where are you getting that idea? I don't see it anywhere in the description of the Combined Spells ability. The restriction is that you can't use your sorcerer slots to cast cleric spells you haven't prepared that day.
Read it again.
The ability lets you use the one class's slots to prepare spells of the other class. Spontaneous casters do not prepare spells. Ever. They simply know them. Since a sorcerer does not prepare spells, he cannot use cleric slots to cast sorcerer spells, since he has not prepared them.
So an Oracle/Sorcerer that becomes a Mystic Theurge doesn't get to use the combined spells ability at all. Mind you, if you can get this class at a lower level than originally intended then maybe it could still be worth it.
Peet
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Read it again.Also, using a sorcerer will mean that you can use your sorc slots to cast cleric spells but not the other way around, since the combined spells ability only works for prepared spells. Mystic Theurges seem to be meant to be cleric/wizards, not cleric/sorcerers.Where are you getting that idea? I don't see it anywhere in the description of the Combined Spells ability. The restriction is that you can't use your sorcerer slots to cast cleric spells you haven't prepared that day.
I have read it again, and I'm pretty sure you're off on this one. Let's go through it.
Here's the complete text of the Combined Spells ability, for reference:
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. At 1st level, a mystic theurge can prepare 1st-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level slots of the other spellcasting class. Every two levels thereafter, the level of spells that can be cast in this way increases by one, to a maximum of 5th-level spells at 9th level (these spells would take up 6th-level spell slots). The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day.
The ability lets you use the one class's slots to prepare spells of the other class. Spontaneous casters do not prepare spells. Ever. They simply know them. Since a sorcerer does not prepare spells, he cannot use cleric slots to cast sorcerer spells, since he has not prepared them.
So your first claim here is that (1) a Cleric / Sorcerer / MT cannot prepare and cast his Sorcerer spells with his Cleric slots.
But notice the first bit I've bolded from Combined Spells. There is no restriction of the sort you imagine, only the phrase "spells from one of his spellcasting classes." To see that this does work, rework the first line: A [Cleric / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge] can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes[, e.g. Sorcerer,] using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes[, e.g. Cleric].
The particular case fits easily in with no conflict in meaning. The Cleric / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge can prepare and cast Sorcerer spells in Cleric slots.
So an Oracle/Sorcerer that becomes a Mystic Theurge doesn't get to use the combined spells ability at all. Mind you, if you can get this class at a lower level than originally intended then maybe it could still be worth it.
Now you seem to be making a second claim, that (2) a Cleric / Sorcerer / MT cannot use his Sorcerer spell slots to cast Cleric spells.
But look at the second bit I've bolded in the Combined Spells text. The rules use this exact example.
So it looks like the Cleric / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge works just fine.
Please don't quote the entire text of the ability again; when you do that it goes past the word limit and if I want to quote you I have to do it by hand. It's already there; you can just scroll up.
So your first claim here is that (1) a Cleric / Sorcerer / MT cannot prepare and cast his Sorcerer spells with his Cleric slots.
Yes, that's correct - because Sorcerers cannot prepare spells.
But notice the first bit I've bolded from Combined Spells. There is no restriction of the sort you imagine, only the phrase "spells from one of his spellcasting classes."
You still need to find a way to give your sorcerer class the ability to prepare spells. Just because it is "one of his spellcasting classes" does not mean that the way sorcery works is altered. You need to cite a rule that specifically deals with using prepared slots with spontaneous spells, and such a rule is not included in the description.
To see that this does work, rework the first line: A [Cleric / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge] can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes[, e.g. Sorcerer,] using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes[, e.g. Cleric].
You seem to think that inserting your own words into the quote is acceptable. I do not. The fact that a class is a "spellcasting class" alone is not enough. The use of the word "prepare" in terms of spells is very specific, and it refers to an established and defined game mechanic. Someone using sorcery does not have that ability.
You will note that the rule and the example included in the description explains how a spontaneous slot may be used to cast a prepared spell, but not the other way around. You cannot simply assume that the reverse of the example given is also true.
So an Oracle/Sorcerer that becomes a Mystic Theurge doesn't get to use the combined spells ability at all. Mind you, if you can get this class at a lower level than originally intended then maybe it could still be worth it.Now you seem to be making a second claim, that (2) a Cleric / Sorcerer / MT cannot use his Sorcerer spell slots to cast Cleric spells.
Even with the quote right in front of you, you misquote me. I said here that an Oracle/Sorcerer cannot use his Sorcerer spell slots to cast Oracle spells. An Oracle is a different class than a Cleric. And the primary difference between Oracles and Clerics is that, like Sorcerers, Oracles are spontaneous casters who do not prepare spells. Since they do not prepare spells, they cannot use a Sorcerer slot to prepare spells.
Generally Paizo is very good at making sure spellcasting rules cover both spontaneous and prepared casting. So you can't assume that the omission here is simply an error. I had always assumed that the restriction was there because sorcerers already have a lot of spells per day slots and don't need more. But whatever the reason, the use of the term "prepare" is quite clear, and nothing in the rules explicitly states that you can use a prepared slot to cast a spontaneous spell.
Peet
The Theurge was written before there was such a thing as a spontaneous divine class, so the situation of having a dual spontaneous Theurge was never a consideration. The intent of the rules is clearly that if one of a theurge's classes uses prepared casting and the other uses spontaneous casting that the spontaneous slots can only be used for the those spells that are were prepared for the day. It's not meant to prevent a dual spontaneous Theurge (which isn't possible with only the CRB) from functioning at all; it's mean to prevent a Sorcerer Theurge from spontaneously casting from an entire divine spell list.
Paizo doesn't rewrite products to take later products into account, and particularly doesn't rewrite anything in the CRB to take into account anything from outside the CRB. They instead expect people to use common sense when dealing with situations that aren't possible in a Core-only game.
Well, as the guide says, you'd lose half your bonus damage to immune creeps. But you could totally dip a level in orc bloodline for a blaster wizard. +1 damage/die is easily worth a flat +1.
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[...] I said here that an Oracle/Sorcerer cannot use his Sorcerer spell slots to cast Oracle spells. An Oracle is a different class than a Cleric. And the primary difference between Oracles and Clerics is that, like Sorcerers, Oracles are spontaneous casters who do not prepare spells. Since they do not prepare spells, they cannot use a Sorcerer slot to prepare spells.So an Oracle/Sorcerer that becomes a Mystic Theurge doesn't get to use the combined spells ability at all. [...]
Hah! Yeah, I wasn't paying attention at all there. So many threads on the MT I've stopped noticing the details. :-P
Yeah, the Oracle/Sorcerer has a problem with the RAW, as I pointed out on Saturday. The general response has been "well the Oracle didn't exist at that point."
I'll leave that question for others who want to take it up.
Post forthcoming on the other question, whether a Cleric / Sorcerer / MT can cast Sorcerer spells with his Cleric slots.
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[...]does not mean that the way sorcery works is altered.
[...]
You seem to think that inserting your own words into the quote is acceptable. I do not. The fact that a class is a "spellcasting class" alone is not enough. The use of the word "prepare" in terms of spells is very specific, and it refers to an established and defined game mechanic. Someone using sorcery does not have that ability.
Absolutely I think it is acceptable to insert words to see if a sentence makes sense. Substitution like that is a simple interpretive tool that can help clarify whether a phrase can or can't refer to a certain thing. The point is that my inserted [e.g. xx]'s–not replacing the phrases in question but seeing if a certain class worked as a referent–seemed to fit easily in without a conflict in meaning. That suggested to me that the Cleric/Sorcerer can use Cleric slots to prepare Sorcerer spells.
You are not persuaded. I think I may have figured out the source of our divergence in interpretation. Let me know if I've misunderstood you.
You look at the Combined Spells ability in this case and think of it as using the Sorcerer class to prepare and cast a spell, using the Cleric slot for fuel. But since Sorcerers don't prepare spells, obviously that can't work!
But I look at the Combined Spells ability in this case and think of it as using the Cleric class to prepare and cast a spell that you know from your Sorcerer class. So, sure, Sorcerers can't prepare spells but what does that have to do with anything, it's the Cleric side doing the preparing!
I hadn't thought of it your way before. But now I think I see why it looks so obviously like a problem to you.
Here's the main reason why I think of it as the Cleric side casting a Sorcerer spell (so, unproblematic):
A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes [...] The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.
That would include using Wisdom as a casting stat, being able to sacrifice it to spontaneously cast a cure spell, and everything else. So it looks to me like it's the Cleric side of the Theurge that's doing the "preparing and casting" here, so the problem of "Sorcerers don't prepare!" doesn't come up.
That's enough of this disagreement for this thread. I'll refrain from going another round in this thread if you still aren't persuaded. If you would like to continue the discussion, please start another thread and I'll join you over there.
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Please more posts on Blockbusters instead of Theurges!
Reading this thread today is like biting into a lemon-filled donut when I wanted creme-filled...
cheers
Pardon me, but what does a sorcerer/cleric/mystic theurge have to do with a blaster wizard thread?
Wouldn't it be prudent to move that discussion to a blaster mystic theurge dedicated thread instead?
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Woot! I just played by first blockbuster last night. At 1st level, he one-shotted two small elementals. Love it!
One lesson learned is that casting on the defensive plays a big part, with his reliance on burning hands. Then, positioning plays a big role to get many bad guys while avoiding being base-to-base with a bad guy.
+1 on moving the mystic theurge argument to a new thread
Sounds cool, Jubal - I don't remember if you shared the specifics of your build - were you totally true to the guide or did you modify things?
I actually posted him in Ravingdork's thread to find him a good portrait. He deviates from the guide in two ways:
1. Tiefling instead of elf. He'll get Spell Pen feat at 5th, and greater Spell Pen at 9th. I liked the tiefling better for several reasons:
- Darkvision without light sensitivity. I personally highly value this ability
- +2 Con for +1 HP per level and +1 Fort
- Three resistances versus one. He's playing Reign of Winter, so I wanted Cold resistance. The fire resist is bonus.
- The Darkness SLA will help him at low levels.
- The flavor aligns with the second deviation.
2. At 6th level, he will go Diabolist. He'll get an Improved Familiar and Augment Summoning for some breadth to blasting. He'll get another daily use to change his blast energy into hellfire, which will help with very resistant enemies. He gets Dim Door and Teleport SLA. All this to replace his 8th level Admixture power and a bonus Wizard feat.
Male Tiefling Admixture Wizard
STR 7
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 20
WIS 11
CHA 5
Alternate Racial Traits:
Prehensile Tail
Vestigial Wings
Traits:
Magical Lineage (Fireball)
Reactionary
Feats:
Spell Focus (evocation) instead of Scribe Scroll
Spell Specialization (burning hands)
At 6th level, he will start the Diabolist prestige class for 6 levels becoming Darth Ferno.
3rd feat - Mage's Tattoo
4th level - change Spell Specialization to (fireball)
5th level - Spell Penetration & Intensify Spell
7th level - Empower Spell for 15d6 fireballs
8th level - he gets Augment Summoning
9th level - Greater Spell Penetration
cheers
Here's the PF Blaster Mage optimization build swatted around. I bring it up in all these discussions.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nn33&page=3?Evocation-optimization#144
The big conflict between here and the Blockbuster is the focus spell.
Fireball is going to be your default spell spec until you reach higher caster levels. Just realize that fireball tops out at caster level 15 if it's Energized, CL 10 if not...and you can reach CL 10 at level 7.
Firesnake is a more useful adventuring spell because it actually takes place at the encounter range of most fights. You can't always throw a fireball into a fight if your friends, or you, are in the area of effect.
Fireballs also hit the surroundings. This means doors, walls, buildings...and loot. Yes, your 100 pt fireball just melted all the gold, furnishings, artwork and unattended items to ash and slag. Firesnake does not have that problem.
The Blaster Mage build takes a sorc level for bloodlines and damage. However, the biggest thing is Varisian Sorceror and Spec spell providing a +3 caster level bonus. They are feats, which means they are doubled when Spell Perfection hits.
Which means the caster level 20? They hit that at level 14. At which point an Energized, Empowered Firesnake in a 7th level slot is doling out 30d6+60 dmg. With a Maximize Rod, that's 180+10d6 damage. Quicken an Energized 30d6+60 one (5th level slot) for follow-up for an average of 165 more.
Firesnake's ability to control who gets hit and usefulness at actual encounter ranges is why it gets the nod. Spell Perfection means you take advantage of its caster level bonuses to max the higher damage out as soon as you get it.
A fireball is limited to 15d6 with Energize, Empowered and Maximized for 90+ 7.5d6 and bonuses. At caster level 15, which you can probably hit by 12.
A Firesnake is limited to 20d6 dmg, Empowered and Maximized for 120dmg +10d6 + bonuses. It has the same damage range as fireball up until you get SPell Perfection, at which point it jumps ahead.
It's all flavor what you want to do up until that point. Basically you're going to have to make the choice between a somewhat uncontrolled long-range nuke and hope your DM ignores the forests you are setting on fire, or a higher-damage, considerably more controlled effect that is perfectly useful at the normal encounter ranges for a fight.
Also note that, like Fireball, Firesnake doesn't tend to use slots above 7th (Energized Empowered). Rods or SPell Perfection provide Maximizing and Quicken. Fireball does have the cost edge here, but also has lower saves.
It all comes down to play style in the end.
==Aelryinth
Fire Snake is great but personally I prefer Chain Lightning. It caps at 20d6 so you dont need Intensify and therefore save a feat slot. It also has a much better range.
With Spell Perfection and magical lineage you get Empowered Persistent Chain Lightning followed by Quickened Chain Lightning for 50d6+100 per round for a level 7 and 6 spell slot at level 15.
it caps at 20, so you NEED intensify :P
Intense Spells (Su)Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This bonus damage is not increased by Empower Spell or similar effects. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever you cast an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
No it works how you think, it's +1/2 Wizard level.
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Question to the blaster mages: Is the +5 level cap effect doubled by Spell Perfection?
==Aelryinth
I don't believe Spell Perfection works on metamagic, so I doubt it affects Energized Spells. Be pretty funny if it did, however!
Note something important when building a blaster mage: Caster level buffs are very, very important, because monster hitpoints rapidly outgrow damage being dealt.
Caster level also has a great secondary effect in that it doubles as Spell Penetration for your spells.
The Blaster Mage above MIGHT want to take Spell Penetration ONCE. The combination of spec spell, varisian tattoo, and Spell Penetration is +6 to caster level, +10 to SR checks...meaning success 95% of the time, and a big damage boost.
==Aelryinth
The example build had piercing spell. That's +5 SR piercing, or +10 with fireball
Is Piercing SPell Metamagic? Pretty sure it's not doubled by Spell Perfection if it is.
If it is, then Empowered and Energized are doubled, too! That could get MEAN.
==Aelryinth
Empowered does not give a numeric bonus, piercing does. I'm unsure about intensify