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I have a fun idea for roleplaying this Thunder and Fang Human barbarian for PFS and am looking for some feedback on the build.
Please check it out and let me know what you think.
Human (Shoanti) Barbarian - Thunder and Fang Build
Starting Stats (after human +2 to STR):
STR:18 DEX:15 CON:14 INT:10 WIS:10 CHA:8
All bumps to STR.
1) Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker; Weapon Focus: Klar
2) Lesser Beast Totem
3) TWF
4) Superstition
5) Thunder and Fang
6) Witch Hunter
7) Improved TWF (assumes a +2/+2 DEX/STR belt by level 7)
8) Spell Sunder
9) Extra Rage Power: Beast Totem
10) Greater Beast Totem
11) Extra Rage Power: Eater of Magic
Note that the character will wield an Earth Breaker Two-Handed until level 5. This approach wastes a few feats until he starts with Thunder and Fang, but the damage output should be respectable in the interim, with 18 base STR (22 Raging) and a two handed weapon.
Not sure if I need to work in Power Attack, or if he could just drop the Klar and use the Earth Breaker two-handed when he needs to overcome DR (I don't usually like stacking PA with TWF, as the attack penalties don't stack well, IMO).
Power Attack on a two handed weapon will give you more DPR on average than TWF but you are focusing on using Thunder and Fang so that seems irrelevant. Level 12 rage power should be reserved for Come And Get Me, though it doesn't matter much since you wont get to play at level 12 for very long (as I understand it).
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Power attack is pretty necessary for damage. Your to hit should be fine (especially if you get reckless abandon). I know it adds versatility but I'd toss spell sunder in this case. You're very feat/rage power deprived. You don't have imp. Sunder or strength surge to make sure you get the dispel off. Frankly, with both thunder and fang AND the barbarian just doesn't have enough feats to be very good at it. You'll still do fairly good damage, but nothing on the 2H. I do commend you for trying the build though.
Fun thought since I tried building it a while ago but never for around to it: Viking archetype fighter thunder and fang. It gets you rage, but also gets you the feats you desperately need. You could also try the ranger archetype that gets rage.
After reading Kiinyan, I'm very much in agreement. I think TWF, ITWF, Thunder and Fang (and it's prereqs of weapon foci) make the build really feat starved.
I agree ditching Spell Sunder for Power Attack is probably a better way to go. I'd also try to shuffle feats around so you have it earlier, because power attack is a staple for dealing damage and until you can obtain Thunder And Fang TWF isn't going to be doing too much for you.
I also suggest a 2 handed weapon, but I suggest keeping spell sunder. If you remove the twf chain, you can get spell sunder, power attack, and strength surge. Also, there are many items or abilities, like reckless abandon, they well increase your cmb for spell sunder.
bracers of skilled maneuver, dusty rose ioun stone in wayfinder for +2cmb/cmd, during-fg weapon.
spell sunder us too good, powerful, and useful to push to the side.
I know it is, but I mean as his main fighting style, not the twf tree.
Kudos to you for not cheesing this build up by going 'Thunder and Thunder' and designing a character who takes Weapon Focus: Klar specifically so that they will never in their lives have to actually use a Klar.
I personally don't think chasing the Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder/Eater of Magic line in this feat-starved build is the optimal way to go, but optimization isn't everything... better by far to have a niche, to have things you're good at and things you aren't and to have fun playing your concept rather than chasing the ever-elusive perfection of a highly optimized build.
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Kudos to you for not cheesing this build up by going 'Thunder and Thunder' and designing a character who takes Weapon Focus: Klar specifically so that they will never in their lives have to actually use a Klar.
I personally don't think chasing the Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder/Eater of Magic line in this feat-starved build is the optimal way to go, but optimization isn't everything... better by far to have a niche, to have things you're good at and things you aren't and to have fun playing your concept rather than chasing the ever-elusive perfection of a highly optimized build.
Especially since the Klar is the better weapon.
It's cheaper, easier and faster to enchant, does double duty increasing your AC AND your attack AND it can't be disarmed.Honestly however for a PFS character you should definitely go Fighter 1/Ranger 11. This way you can be using your T&F feat by 3rd level, get Double Slice at 3rd as well and gain access to [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final]Shield Master at 7th instead of 11th. You can then just ignore Dex from that point on. (If you skip the fighter level then you can just dump your Dex completely).
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I appreciate the comments and suggestions. The whole point of the build revolves around Thunder and Fang. Building a powerful, high- DPS barbarian wielding a two handed weapon is easy. But that isn't what I am shooting for here.
I'll play with a Viking archetype build tomorrow and see how that works. I'm guessing it would be touch to pull off the spell sunder and beast totem combo with Viking, but it might have other advantages.
In all honesty, I think the character would be pretty viable for PFS as is. The DPS at level 8 looks comparable to a hard-hitting two handed fighter that I played to retirement in PFS, but with a little more versatility.
Thanks for the feedback!
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The only advantage I see for Ranger is for the Shield Master feat at level 6. That helps a bit, but he is still way behind the curve on damage compared to a Fighter or Barbarian, except where he can get his FE. Instant Enemy doesn't help very much for PFS, since it doesn't come into play until level 10.
I like it!
I have two suggestions based on the fact that this is a PFS character.
- I would lower CHA to 7, raise INT or WIS to 12. I might not do that in a home game, depending on my roleplaying goals. In PFS, however, I would gladly take +1 skill point per level (INT) or +1 Perception & Will Save (WIS).
- I would consider dropping Beast Totem. Unless you have a fair amount of PFS experience and are certain you'll be playing the character to at least level 11, you'll get very little out of Beast Totem. Yes, Pounce is an amazing ability for a TWF build. But until level 10, it gives you very little.
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I would consider dropping Beast Totem. Unless you have a fair amount of PFS experience and are certain you'll be playing the character to at least level 11, you'll get very little out of Beast Totem. Yes, Pounce is an amazing ability for a TWF build. But until level 10, it gives you very little.[/list]
I was thinking about this, too. Cutting out beast totem would allow me to take Power Attack and Reckless Abandon (for more damage), or Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder (for better Spell Sundering, mostly).
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I've been struggling to come up with a T&F build I like enough to put on paper.
The version I'm thinking of going with is Ranger-2/Invulnerable Rager
Dump Dex and put it into Con. Get both Weapon Focus feats at 1st level being Human, get 2WF at level 2 for free, and T&F at level 3. That helps with the feat starvation, essentially subbing a rage power at level 2 for a feat. You'd never get ITWF, but I'd be happy with just the one extra Klar attack anyways.
Then you can be DPS and tank with your HP/DR.
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Here's my first take on a Viking Archetype build for Thunder and Fang.
It brings the Thunder and Fang as early as you can get it, at level 2. I dropped the Beast Totem path for for damage and versatility. Spell Sunder comes pretty late in the build (level 8).
Let me know what you think.
Viking Build:
1) Weapon Focus: Klar; Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker (H); TWF (F)
2) Thunder and Fang
3) Power Attack
4) Improved Sunder
5) Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
6) Superstition
7) Extra Rage Power: Witch Hunter
8) Spell Sunder
9) Improved TWF
10) Greater Sunder
11) FEAT (?)
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Although I think we have different concepts in mind, here's my feat tree. My favored enemy is going to be Outsider(Evil), which fits nicely with the World Serpent Totem. Barbarian archetype is Invulnerable Rager, haven't decided if I want a Ranger archetype or not.
1st (RNG-1): Weapon Focus – Klar
Weapon Focus – Earth Breaker
2nd (RNG-2): (Free) Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd (BRB-1): Thunder and Fang
4th (BRB-2): (Rage) Reckless Abandon
5th (BRB-3): Power Attack
6th (BRB-4): (Rage) World Serpent Totem
7th (BRB-5): Furious Focus
8th (BRB-6): (Rage) World Serpent Spirit
9th (BRB-7): Extra Rage Power – World Serpent Totem Unity
10th (BRB-8): (Rage) Increased Damage Reduction
11th (BRB-9): Extra Rage Power – Increased Damage Reduction
12th (BRB10): (Rage) Increased Damage Reduction
Don't downplay power attack even though you are TWF, as a barabarian you will have a high to hit anyway, but Thunder and fang also uses a lot of feats, so I would leave it up to you.
Also sorry to disagree with you Nefreet, but I think heart of the fields is better for the barbarian, bonus to craft yea whatever, but ignore any affect that would make you fatigued or exhausted once per day is a great way to not get screwed by ray of fatigue, or not getting a nights rest, or to do some early rage cycling.
Although I think we have different concepts in mind, here's my feat tree. My favored enemy is going to be Outsider(Evil), which fits nicely with the World Serpent Totem. Barbarian archetype is Invulnerable Rager, haven't decided if I want a Ranger archetype or not.
Guide architype might help you kill things that aren't evil outsides, but it looks like you are built to specifically kill them, so probably not.