I use In Harm's Way to pretty good effect, as well as Bodyguard with Benevolent armor. I can use Aid Another by spending an attack of opportunity when adjacent friends get attacked to add 6 to their AC. If they get hit anyway, I can take the damage. It's a 3-feat chain (and a cheap armor enhancement), but it sounds kinda like what you want. It can make the guys who aren't AC beasts reasonably competitive, and allows you to pull damage away from them if needed.
Other than the odd feat, spell, or magic item, many of which have been listed here, Pathfinder has no centralized tanking mechanic. It is still a roleplaying game, though. I find insulting the NPCs tends to work alright.
Crane, Crane Style, not Swan. (slaps forehead)
Dang! I was really getting a kick out of thinking there was a Swan Style.
Swans can be quite mean. You could chase around people demanding their bread crumbs!
If I encountered such a situation, and knowing such magics exist, I would head for the things in the back and attack them. If there are casters, they'll be in the back (usually). Also, once they cast one time you know which individual is a spell caster.
I'd put a pretty good knowledge: Arcana or Spellcraft to "know such magics exist".
I'm in the camp of 'mooks' shouldn't be too meta-gamey. Just because they missed the first two or three swings, they wouldn't abandon the fight... They can't see the buffs you have on you can't tell one plate armor from the plate armor +5... Most know there IS magic that can be awesome... but they haven't ever seen a core rule book. or come close to seeing a caster at level 15 or know his abilities...
and with 6 second rounds, it should take a bit before they realize how screwed they are...
BBEGs who have been spying on the heroes or Archenemies who they've met before... TOTALLY different story. That's what seperates the masterminds from the mooks.
|
For everyone who had suggestions for how my players can tank better, including builds, tactics, spells, etc., thank you. They've taken it all into consideration.
To everyone else, I think we can agree that this thread is another example that Paizo not allowing editing of posts can cause massive tangents, that might be better avoided if I were allowed to edit my first post. My players LOVE a challenge. They aren't mad that I'm having guys ignoring them after missing a few times. In fact, they love it! They were just looking for ways to tank.
Oh, and yep, tanking might be a VG term. I don't care. Pathfinder needs tanking mechanics, because they've really focused on combat. Thankfully, books like Ultimate Campaign show that they know this, and are attempting to fight against it. Also, I don't care if you think it's too metagame. We're having have fun. I'm also having fun running more roleplay based games, but when I do that, I use systems better suited towards roleplaying and character development. When we play Pathfinder, we want a mechanical combat system that's fun to get into character with, but not as completely combat focused as, say, 4ED was. Seriously, other than the lack of a tanking class, Pathfinder is awesome for that. So is Iron Heroes, but I like magic too much for Iron Heroes to work for me.
Anyways, thanks again for all your suggestions!
The whole idea of tanking and aggro are video game concepts.
If you want your heavies to defend the casters (forcing attacks against them) then you need to use terrain. Put the heavies in a place where they block access to your casters.
At level 15 if you don't have favorable terrain you should have little problem creating some of your own.
Good luck!
Shieldwall, taunting and skirmishing. Tanking and drawing aggro in history.
Ignoring them after one round is a bit odd. As previously mentioned, it reeks of meta-gaming. Also, rolling an 18 or an 8 is not immediately clear cut from the attacker's perspective. The 18 will feel alot more co-ordinated than the 8 but the attacker doesn't know they have to hit an ac of x to sucessfully land a blow. The ac is just the number to constitute the total components of dex, armor...etc. For characters with high ac, they normally have a ton from not just armor but also dex based bonuses, deflection and so on. Combat run in multiple games I've been in has been fluid that way. I played a Ip Man sort of pugilist in a game last year. Monk with really high AC who actually drew certain opponents into "wasting" a couple of rounds atacking him. Not saying that every opponent just rushed his way and ignored everyone else. just that those that did had a much lower chance of hitting him than say, the hobgoblin swashbuckler. They attacked for a couple of rounds and some would change targets but they had already wasted 2-3 rounds doing so. It was quite intersting, with the dm describing the cuts and stabs, me describing the blocks and dodges, ducking and weaving. Returning the attacks with light palm strikes. After one round,the opponents didn't say "well that **** has an ac of mid 30s, guess we'll all ignore him now." If the opponents have been briefed or are aware of the particular character's strengths beforehand, then thats a different story but they weren't. Even with a high ac, such characters are not untouchable. Previously, touch attcks completely negate armor are one thing. There are also spells and special monstrous abilities which ignore ac and just force saves. Not to menton swarms and certain abilities which are area of effect and don't even allow a save. Alot can still affect high ac characters but they should be given the opportunity to shine instead of the dm singing the tune of "hur hur hur, everything just ignores you, your high ac character suxxxorx."
Not sure if its been mentioned before...
Yes, pairing a heavy hitter char with good ac but better hp, and a great ac char with a lot of attacks is a fine combination. They switch roles as need be, they soak and attack back in turn. Anyone coming in to play has to choose one or spread it out, and they can ignore the other, but then they may face those awful rounds of both concentrating attacks back. Ignoring a high ac opponent can be a very bad idea.
Btw, I'm sure it legal but how does one get to 15d6 when Shocking Grasp normally caps at 5d6? I don't play casters so I'm not especially familiar with all the tricks.Intensified Empowered
Level 15 allows for spell perfection so:
Intensified Empowered Quickened
One should note that even at level 15 you're either burning some high level spell slots (4th for intensified empowered, unless your GM allows Magical Lineage) or using magus arcana that have 1/day limiters to do this - it's not something you can rely on all day unless you invest a decent amount of your WBL into pearls of power.
Out of curiosity, how does Quicken Spell work with Spell Combat (a full round action)?
Swift action SG,
Make your spellstrike/touch attack,
activate spell combat,
make your attacks,
then SP shocking grasp,
then make your spellstrike/touch attack
Something like that?
I'd put a pretty good knowledge: Arcana or Spellcraft to "know such magics exist".
I'm in the camp of 'mooks' shouldn't be too meta-gamey. Just because they missed the first two or three swings, they wouldn't abandon the fight... They can't see the buffs you have on you can't tell one plate armor from the plate armor +5... Most know there IS magic that can be awesome... but they haven't ever seen a core rule book. or come close to seeing a caster at level 15 or know his abilities...
and with 6 second rounds, it should take a bit before they realize how screwed they are...
BBEGs who have been spying on the heroes or Archenemies who they've met before... TOTALLY different story. That's what seperates the masterminds from the mooks.
I couldn't disagree more. In Golarion everyone knows magic exists. I'm pretty sure the fact that illusion magic exists is common knowledge, knowing the specifics of a spell would be different and thats where you'd need a spellcraft/know(arcana). It's not meta-gaming for a mook to think "These guys all look the same, must be magic!" nor is it meta-gaming to attack the guys in the rear if they're not wielding melee weapons. Casters and archers can be far more devastating to a group than any single melee combatant. Don't make mooks stupid just to make the game easier. And as a player, if I get a full attack on somebody and not one of my attacks hit I'm going to attack another creature (though I would also ask my GM if they were "near misses" or not) because I'm not going to waste my time attacking something I can't hit.
Don't forget to factor in backwaters. Not everywhere is the cosmopolitan high magic cities.
As an aside, how does a Kensai stand up against a raging Barbarian? I feel like a charge pounce from a barbarian with come and get me may do alright.It would most likely come down to dice rolls.
Cause, you know, the kensai WILL go first and can hit way harder, at least for the first few rounds.
That whole bane weapon + multiple 15d6 shocking grasps per round thing.....
Starting position might make a difference depending on if the magus can reach the barbarian or not. Also whether or not the barbarian has any sort of electrical energy resistance. But, yeah that would be challenging. Of course, if the barbarian isn't one of the first few opponents of the day...
Btw, I'm sure it legal but how does one get to 15d6 when Shocking Grasp normally caps at 5d6? I don't play casters so I'm not especially familiar with all the tricks.
Intensify can get it up to 10d6. Maybe empowered intensified for 10d6 x 1.5? Equivalent to 15d6...
And something my barbarian/magus should remember...
I couldn't disagree more. In Golarion everyone knows magic exists. I'm pretty sure the fact that illusion magic exists is common knowledge, knowing the specifics of a spell would be different and thats where you'd need a spellcraft/know(arcana). It's not meta-gaming for a mook to think "These guys all look the same, must be magic!" nor is it meta-gaming to attack the guys in the rear if they're not wielding melee weapons. Casters and archers can be far more devastating to a group than any single melee combatant. Don't make mooks stupid just to make the game easier. And as a player, if I get a full attack on somebody and not one of my attacks hit I'm going to attack another creature (though I would also ask my GM if they were "near misses" or not) because I'm not going to waste my time attacking something I can't hit.
I was speaking of the 'knowing such magic exists' part. Veil is a very specific and High level spell. There is a difference between knowing that there are such things as illusions.... and knowing which ones and the specifics and limitations of them.
Frankly if everyone looks the same... it could be a silent image. It could well be mirror image. it could be veil... without a spellcraft or knowledge roll you shouldn't have a clue WHAT is going on.
It would be common knowledge that magic exists... and probably common MISinformation that 'mages can do ANYthing...' but the illusions have RULES for how targets can see past them. They get their will saves, they get their chances to interact.. just saying 'i don't beleive it' and acting normally regardless of what the stats say... would be a bit meta-gamey. and knowing more about the limitations of spells then your knowledge rolls would be heavily into 'player knowledge' and not character knowledge.
As a rule, HECK YES, go for the squishies in the back first... take the healers and the blasters out of the equation... but knowing 'magic = dangerous' is not the same thing as knowing that Veil is a specific spell that makes everyone look, act, and smell the same....
Another thing you can do is have longer adventuring days. Less healing needed = more encounters per day.
Confusion/Dominate Person. Make them fight each other. Break out the popcorn.
dude a 2.5 year thread. You shouldn't be calling people out.
And the idea is that these TANKS aren't doing damage, and they usually aren't. Plus Spellcasting is noticeable and everyone knows that spells can do some crazy awesome stuff. And even if the tanks are doing okay damage, it's still best to ignore them until their the last one standing since your attacks are ineffective against them.
And they are acting as real characters. The vast majority of parties I've seen do a fight always target what they think is a spellcaster, or at least the squishiest target. The best plan is to drop someone as fast as you can, and the big ogre can easily be dealt with by the caster, just as your TANK. Wall of earth around you. Now you're stuck in a little box, no save. You're not dead but you're out of the fight.
*Casts Hallow*
"Turn Unthread!"
*Channels divine might in a pillar of white flame*
Technically, they can hit them...it just bounces off all the armor. Ergo, hit, but not hurt.
It's technically not much different then a low AC high DR build..."Mom, I hit his body and clawed him good and it didn't do anything to him!"
==Aelryinth
Oh, and yep, tanking might be a VG term. I don't care. Pathfinder needs tanking mechanics, because they've really focused on combat. Thankfully, books like Ultimate Campaign show that they know this, and are attempting to fight against it. Also, I don't care if you think it's too metagame. We're having have fun. I'm also having fun running more roleplay based games, but when I do that, I use systems better suited towards roleplaying and character development. When we play Pathfinder, we want a mechanical combat system that's fun to get into character with, but not as completely combat focused as, say, 4ED was. Seriously, other than the lack of a tanking class, Pathfinder is awesome for that. So is Iron Heroes, but I like magic too much for Iron Heroes to work for me.Anyways, thanks again for all your suggestions!
Personally I think everyone is over thinking the problem. The fighter doesn't NEED a feat or skill check to sling insults at an ogre. Talking is a free action, have the fighter YELL at the damned monster. Except for really intelligent creatures or NPCS most are going to attack the one yelling at them.
Seriously, there isn't an agro mechanic in the game because talking is a free action. Talking or yelling if you really get into the role playing bit is a big part of the game.
Fighter "Hey orc, your mother smelled of elderberries and your father was an elf!"
No feats or dice rolls needed to yell at something. You're the GM, you control all of the opponents, their thoughts, actions and tactics.
Using the ogre again, as someone else said, they ain't bright and get mad. So they are likely going to keep trying to hit the person standing closest to them. They won't just shrug their shoulders and try to punch the wizard.
Maybe that group of orcs are battle hardened and know how to fight better than standard orcs. Maybe they get +8 to their attacks and have better gear having beaten better than average guards.
And more importantly, the individuals that tend to have such incredibly high AC also tend to be less good at attacking, usually to the point where they aren't much of an offensive threat.
If you're not an offensive threat, and your difficult to hit why should I stick around trying to hit you. You might poke me for a little damage, but you're much less of a threat than the wizard or virtually anyone else in your party (probably). Rule number 1 is always kill the wizard first (if you can do so without risking too much for yourself.) So this is merely an extension of that mindset.
Take out the biggest threats, ignore those who are less of a threat until last.
A completely average PF person can get an AC of 41 to 43 just by maxing out the normal AC gear - Mithril Armor, Dex, Deflection, Nat Armor, Luck, Insight. With a shield you can reach almost 50.
I would hazard the cleric made his own gear and is using a shield, so he's ahead of the curve of everyone else.
Remember, full plate +5 and +5 heavy shield is ac 31 Right there, before ANYTHING else. Reaching 40 with a shield is not difficult at all.
==Aelryinth
|
With all the genre-savvy bad guys around, it seems like this little beauty...
MOCK ARMOR
Price 90 gp; Weight 10 lbs.
When an arcane caster needs a disguise, she might don a suit of mock armor. Made from leather or thin wood such as balsa or bamboo and painted to look like metal, a suit of mock armor passes as full plate under all but the closest scrutiny. A character inspecting someone in mock armor must succeed at a DC 20 Perception check to identify it as fake. Mock armor gives you no Armor Class bonus, doesn't affect your maximum Dexterity bonus, and has no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. It cannot be given magical armor abilities, whether enhancement bonuses or properties like fortification or ghost touch. When wearing mock armor, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks to conceal your identity or allegiance as a spellcaster (for example, in cities where arcane spellcasting is illegal). The Craft (carpentry) or Craft (leather) DC to create mock armor is 25.
... could be a squishy's best friend! Even better if your tankish friends are wearing glamered full plate and pointy hats with sequins sewn on in the shape of moons and stars...
'Rule One: attack the... WTF?!'
:)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is one thing I felt the 4e fighter did very well. He didn't force anyone to attack him, he just took advantage of the fact that they weren't paying attention to him to get extra hits in. Feats that worked in a similar way (getting attacks of opportunity when someone hits your buddy) would be great for a bodyguard build in Pathfinder. Either you're protecting your buddies because the enemy is attacking you instead, or you're protecting your buddies by making the guys attacking them go down faster.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You are encountering the inevitable result of most optimization arms races. At this point there's no solution that isn't going to result in frustrated players and frustrated DM or hurt feelings.
If you ignore the characters with high AC in favor of attacking the moderate-low AC characters, the moderate-low AC characters are going to feel like you're picking on them.
If you rebuild your encounters to counter the high AC characters by using incorporeal creatures, gunslingers, etc, the high AC characters are going to be frustrated because you invalidated their optimization.
If you rebuild your encounters to feature creatures with super attack attack bonuses, the high AC characters are going to be frustrated because you're negating their optimization and the moderate-low AC characters are going to be frustrated because everything suddenly hits them on 2s. (In my experience this is the worst option.)
From my experience, the best solution is to work with the high AC characters to bring them down to reasonable levels. Anything else is going to result in someone being really unhappy.
This is one thing I felt the 4e fighter did very well. He didn't force anyone to attack him, he just took advantage of the fact that they weren't paying attention to him to get extra hits in. Feats that worked in a similar way (getting attacks of opportunity when someone hits your buddy) would be great for a bodyguard build in Pathfinder. Either you're protecting your buddies because the enemy is attacking you instead, or you're protecting your buddies by making the guys attacking them go down faster.Things like 5e's Sentinel feat would really help with trying to "tank" as well.
If something provokes an attack of opportunity from you, its movement stops dead where you hit it. Sorry, guy trying to take a minor swipe to get to the guy behind me, you're going to sit right in my threatened zone until your next turn.
The feat also means there is no "safe" disengage; any movement out of the spaces within 5 feet of you provokes.
And if you're within five feet of a target and they choose to attack someone besides you, you get an AoO.
That'd be a tremendously useful feat to have in Pathfinder, as then your heavily armored guy can actually stop things dead in the process of whacking them, trapping them in full attack range on your turn, be impossible to safely evade at close range, and punish anyone trying to attack someone other than him as long as he's got them there.
The Stand Still feat tries for this but it's not nearly as effective; among other things, Sentinel's movement-stopping works with reach weapons while Stand Still doesn't, and it's often a lot easier for a martial to hit a guy's AC than CMD, because CMD can scale very fast for some things you don't want anywhere near your casters.
Note you're referencing the Stand Still feat. The 'true' Stand Still from 3.5 DID work with reach weapons, and combined with Hedge of Thorns stance, provoked AoO with every movement.
There is a Stand Still ability that works like 3.5 in the Cavalier order of the Shield. Also, Stand Still's language is debateable, since it works off AoO's, and reach weapons effectively give you more 'adjacent squares' to threaten.
Meh.
==Aelryinth
reasonable levels? Unless they had AC 5 the enemies should still ignore them and go for the highest threat.
For smart enemies the target should be Highest Threat + Easiest to kill. If there's a high AC High threat and a low AC High threat then the low AC is the target. And since high AC usually leads to low threat, they are the lowest priority target.
Your post is way to long. You lost me after your tank analogy.
And the problem with it is that the High AC guy usually isn't as lethal as a tank.
The example should be more like, there's a big tank guarding a missile launcher. Which do you go for first? The missile launcher. It's far more effective in winning a war than 1 tank is, and it's easy to kill once you get to it. That's why they have a tank there. But if we kill the missile launcher really quick then we can turn and fight the tank, which may take a while. But we don't have to worry about the missile launcher doing any more damage to the city while we fight that tank.
Also if an enemy is super hard to hit then the plan is, kill all his friends and then overwhelm him. Or, kill his friends, run away with friends bodies to loot.
Also another reason things don't retreat is running away is hard. You're likely to get picked off if you run. PC's don't like you alerting people they are coming.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much what Chess Pwn said.
You don't flail uselessly at the armored fighter. You let your mage take him out of the fight with spells that make his AC irrelevant.
Meanwhile, you take out their mage before he does the same to you. Simple as that.
No amount of scissors is going to beat rock. That's why you go after paper instead.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much what Chess Pwn said.
You don't flail uselessly at the armored fighter. You let your mage take him out of the fight with spells that make his AC irrelevant.
Meanwhile, you take out their mage before he does the same to you. Simple as that.
No amount of scissors is going to beat rock. That's why you go after paper instead.
That's if you can tell which is scissors and which is rock.
My scrawny DEX monk wears a robe & pointy hat with stars & moons, and he opens most fights with Scorching Ray.
|
|
That's if you can tell which is scissors and which is rock.You usually find out real quick when all your attacks miss.
Does the character know what they roll? If they roll crappy one round against a mediocre AC character do they shift their attacks to a higher AC character?
Besides, what is hitting HP anyway? It's a very vague sort of thing; until you get down to the last 1/4 or so, you aren't really landing solid hits anyway.
Does the character know what they roll?You don't describe how good or bad a character does when they attack? They don't learn anything from swinging a sword at someone and missing other than 'I missed'?
I've always assumed characters have a vague idea of how well they're performing.
I believe you have a vague idea that your attack was well aimed, almost to the best of your abilities (roll of 19), but you still missed. This enables you to consider that you simply don't have much of a chance to hit the enemy.