How can I give a rogue poison use without the taking away Trapfinding

[Elladan Sindanarie]

I want to give my Rogue the poison use ability but I do not want to loose my Trapfinding ability like the poisoner archetype does. I can not go Assassin due to the alignment restriction of PFS characters not being evil (or am I wrong on that one)? I could take two levels of Alchemist, but I am not sure I like that ideal. I don't see any feats that give this ability and I was surprised that poison use is not a rogue talent. Any suggestions would be welcome.

[Malag]

Trapfinding isn't really a great class ability honestly. I never once felt that it was needed during any PFS game.

I would suggest multiclass if you don't wish to lose Trapfinding.

[LazarX]

Or find a way to gain immunity to the poisons you intend to use. Then poison use wouldn't be a factor.

[Are]

Hm. I was going to say you should take the "poison use" rogue talent, but apparently there isn't one, despite the fact that there are a number of other rogue talents that improve your ability to use poisons.

You could take a level of ninja, I suppose. They get poison use at 1st level. Oh, wait. That probably won't work in PFS either, since ninja is classified as an "alternate class".

Is it possible for you to recreate your rogue as a ninja?

[pluvia33]

Are wrote:

Is it possible for you to recreate your rogue as a ninja?

The problem with that is ninjas don't get Trapfinding.

I think your best bet is to just take two levels in Vivisectionist (Alchemist). You'll get Poison Use and you won't lose any Sneak Attack power for your level. And if you're interested in it, you can even take the Bleeding Attack rogue talent in place of the one Alchemist Discovery you'll gain if none of the Discoveries fit your character.

Although it's probably not an option in PFS, Vishkanya and Drow get Poison Use as racial traits.

[Imbicatus]

Gnome Knack for poison alternate racial trait is poison use light. You can still poison yourself, but you get a +4 save if you do.

[Elladan Sindanarie]

Pluvia33, The Vivisectionist (Alchemist)is a good alternative. I did not see that archetype. I hate to multiclass away from the rogue just to get what I want, but it looks like my best option to get the ability and still kind of keep the rogue skills going. Thanks for the suggestion. If anyone else has a suggestion please keep them coming.

[Ferious Thune]

Vivisectionist isn't PFS legal either.

Really, for PFS, the only option is to multiclass, I think. Either into Alchemist to get Poison Use, or into a class/Archetype that gets Trapfinding or something similar. Crypt Breaker Alchemist actually gets both Trapfinding and Poison Use - Take that Rogue! Trapfinding replaces Brew Potion, so in PFS it would replace the Extra Bombs you get instead of Brew Potion. They don't get Poison Use until 2nd, but as a bonus, I believe an alchemist is allowed to craft poisons like they can alchemical items, which is really the only way to make using poison cost effective in PFS. Then instead of taking Poisoner Rogue, take a Rogue Archetype that keeps Trapfinding, and the bonuses should essentially stack. You would lose 1D6 of sneak attack, but you'd gain Bombs, a discovery (You can take Trap Spotter here instead of with Rogue also), a mutagen that helps perception and grant Darkvision, and crafting. Or, if you don't care about the bonus per level to find and disable traps, this frees you up to take a Rogue Archetype that gives up Trapfinding.

Trapper Ranger and Seeker Oracle or Sorcerer also get some form of Trapfinding, and there are probably a couple of others.

[Kairos Dawnfury]

You could take the Poisoner and use one of your Rogue Talents to take the one that gives you a +4 to finding hidden traps and doors. It should off set the penalty up to at least level 8, I don't think you'll miss the last 2. Our rogue has a +19 to find traps at level 6 and somehow still misses them...

[lemeres]

Two levels of alchemist might be best. That will give you poison use, +2 resistance to poison, some spells, mutagens, bombs (I'd say take vivisectionist if it wasn't PFS), and one discovery.

Since this will optimally be just a dip, here are some discoveries that might help and can be taken from level 2: Acid bomb (not for damage, just as a quick source of acid to take out regeneration. Not sure how much this is a factor usually), Chameleon (+4 to stealth), Concentrate poison (takes a minute and can only last an hour though, so you should plan ahead for a raid if you choose this), or maybe a tentacle or vestigial arm (so you can hold two weapons and still hold things)

[Ferious Thune]

I did miss one thing on the Crypt Breaker. A Crypt Breaker doesn't get a mutagen by default. The Archetype alters the mutagen, but they can only get access to it if they take the mutagen discovery. So that would probably be the level 2 discovery unless you don't care about mutagens, then Trap Spotter with one of your Rogue talents.

Crypt Breaker gets you Alkaline (acid) Bombs from the start. Less damage against most things (d4s), but more damage against Undead and Constructs (d8s).

[MeatForTheGrinder]

Elladan Sindanarie wrote:

I could take two levels of Alchemist, but I am not sure I like that

How about the Vivisectionist Alchemist for two levels instead of the base class? You trade Bombs for Sneak Attack, stacking with rogue Sneak Attack and keeping your progress at the same pace as just using rogue, but would add in a bunch of class features that could be useful. This includes a spell list that would allow you to use many of the best level 1 wands without a UMD check, such as CLW, Enlarge Person, Shield, and True Strike. You can even take Bleeding Attack as a Discovery for extra rogue like flair.

[lemeres]

Ferious Thune wrote:

Vivisectionist isn't PFS legal either.

The original post mentioned that it was for PFS

[Ferious Thune]

lemeres wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

Vivisectionist isn't PFS legal either.

The original post mentioned that it was for PFS

I know. That's why I pointed out Vivisectionist isn't an option. I agree it stacks best with Rogue, so all of those recommending it are on the right track for a home game, but for PFS, you cannot take the Vivisectionist Archetype. Since the OP was asking about PFS, I figured I should point that out.

[pluvia33]

Sorry, didn't know Vivisectionist wasn't PFS legal. May I ask what the reason is behind that? Just out of curiosity. I've never played PFS since it just isn't used in my local gaming community.

[TimD]

As long as you don't care about Trap Sense as well as Trapfinding, why don't you just go with the Poisoner Rogue Archtype and take a level dip in something that gives Trapfinding (like a Seeker Sorcerer or Pathfinder Delver)?

-TimD

[Byrdology]

this may help if you are home brewing.

[Elladan Sindanarie]

Vivisectionist isn't PFS legal either. I wounder why the do not allow the Vivisectionist. Any other option out there?

[Rycaut]

Realize that if you take another method for Trapfinding you will be able to disable magic traps but won't get much bonus if your rogue levels don't get Trapfinding (as they won't therefore stack).

I'd probably recommend against poison use in PFS or if you must then levels if alchemist with an archetype that doesn't give up poison use.

In PFS there is a very limited number of poisons you can purchase (and generally if on a chronicle sheet poisons are typically limited in how many you can purchase). Poisons can be complicated so if you will be using them be sure to really understand how multiple exposures work, how you apply poisons in combat and what their effects will be. DMs will need to be reminded about when to make saves (timing varies by the poison) as well as may need to check on a monster by monster basis which are immune to poisons.

[mplindustries]

How about you just suck up a 5% chance to make a Fortitude save? Poison Use barely does anything.

[master_marshmallow]

Drow get poison use right? Are they legal races?

[Lincoln Hills]

I wouldn't bother. Poison Use is kind of a trap anyhow, since you have a choice between spending a bunch of gold just to watch the enemy succeed at a Fortitude save and negate the whole thing, or spend a huge bunch of gold on a very expensive poison... just to watch the enemy succeed at two succcessive Fortitude saves and negate the whole thing. Assuming the target isn't outright immune. Even if Poison Use were a feat, I'd rank it pretty low power-wise.

[7heprofessor]

Yeah, a class feature that only ever functions when you roll a 1 is kind of a bad thing to build towards. Just use the poison and deal with it if you ever fail. Or ask your DM to just let you have it since it's totally not over-powered.

[bojac6]

Are wrote:

Hm. I was going to say you should take the "poison use" rogue talent, but apparently there isn't one, despite the fact that there are a number of other rogue talents that improve your ability to use poisons.

You could take a level of ninja, I suppose. They get poison use at 1st level. Oh, wait. That probably won't work in PFS either, since ninja is classified as an "alternate class".

Is it possible for you to recreate your rogue as a ninja?

Can you not multiclass with an "alternate class"? I mean, why couldn't he just take a level of ninja and then more of rogue?

[Ferious Thune]

I misread Crypt Breaker again. You get the altered mutagen at 1st (perception plus a special ability). You can only get the standard mutagen by spending a discovery on it.

The description of alternate classes specifically states that you can't take rogue and ninja on the same character.

[Elladan Sindanarie]

Well thanks everyone. I guess I have my answer. I think I will just forget poison altogether.

[bojac6]

Ferious Thune wrote:

The description of alternate classes specifically states that you can't take rogue and ninja on the same character.

Thanks, I did not notice that before. That's useful information. Sad, but useful.