It lacked substance, it lacked description. You're more machine than man. Certainly not being a storyteller or a dm describing very much. It was an example of going through the motions, without life, or any conveyance of life's fragility. No excitement behind the hit, no power, no cool death move, nothing memorable. Simply, nothingness.
That is why you failed.
And you say you aren't telling us how to run our games.
None of my players care about any of that.
If they have never drank apple juice, and you have never given them apple juice, how do you know they won't like the apple juice you give them?
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If you fail so completely to describe a simple event, I can't tell you how to run your games, I can only help you, and indicate where your weaknesses assuredly lie.
I've got to run a game soon (yay!), but if I could make some suggestions it would be to try and add more to your games, description wise. Frame it, but also get into the details. This doesn't all have to be about blood, smell can be a new detail to bring into your games, how does something smell when they enter, a cave, a tunnel, how does a combat smell at the end?
There are other areas. Are their hearts racing, are they half dead, what, have, they, done. This doesn't have to take all night, just a bit more description, dally with the gritty and what their senses tell them, and you will be set to improve a lot.
Or you can ignore the lesson.
If they have never drank apple juice, and you have never given them apple juice, how do you know they won't like the apple juice you give them?
Another mistake you're often making is to assume we haven't tried it the way you're advocating. As teenagers our group played much more explicitly violent than we do now. We don't take a minimalist approach to gore because we haven't thought of it but because we don't enjoy it (any longer).
You will continue to miss the point until you include the participants' preferences in your arguments.
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...why can't we just agree to disagree? >_>
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Or you can ignore the lesson.If the teacher were respectful, he might actually have something worth learning.
Off to bed gentlemen, try not to get the thread locked.
Hopefully it won't get locked. It's not particularly unpleasant. Granted, it's going in circles, but there's nothing inherently wrong with rehashing the same points is there? People can read something else if they get bored...
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If they have never drank apple juice, and you have never given them apple juice, how do you know they won't like the apple juice you give them?
If you know your players don't like apples, or apple flavored things, it's a safe bet they won't like Apple juice. And will probably be annoyed if you keep shoving it at them. ;)
Other serious question. What kind of groups do you play with? Are they the lifelong friends that have been gaming together for years? or the more 'random group of new people who like Pathfinder... and if they don't like it, I'll replace them with someone else?'
In our group we don't NEED to pour on the gory description to know it's going to upset some of the players. We've known that for 5 - 10 years when they refuse to watch horror movies or gory shows.
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Holy cow, this is still going? 4 more pages of "urdoinitwrong?"
My eyes just glazed over around page 5. Page after page of 2 people trying to tell 20+ how to play their own games, and that they're doing it wrong if they don't play exactly like they do. Wowsers.
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I think that thejeff is simply advocating equality. That if there are people who get upset at the mention of gore, there are people who get upset if they are not allowed to mention gore. In detail. Who is right? Neither, or both.
An i think that he is right. One person should not be able to dictate the behavior of a group, just as the group should not be able to force things on a person.
Solution is simple from both sides. You don't like that your group uses overly gory descriptions? Ask them to tone it down, and if they don't, leave. Group dislikes that a player is using ovetly gory descroptions? They can ask him to tone it down and dump him if he doesn't comply. But he has a right not to comply. And no, it doesn't make him an asshat.
I think that thejeff is simply advocating equality. That if there are people who get upset at the mention of gore, there are people who get upset if they are not allowed to mention gore. In detail. Who is right? Neither, or both.
An i think that he is right. One person should not be able to dictate the behavior of a group, just as the group should not be able to force things on a person.
Solution is simple from both sides. You don't like that your group uses overly gory descriptions? Ask them to tone it down, and if they don't, leave. Group dislikes that a player is using ovetly gory descroptions? They can ask him to tone it down and dump him if he doesn't comply. But he has a right not to comply. And no, it doesn't make him an asshat.
Pretty much. (Although I'd quibble slightly, in that I think the group's norms should be influential, if not binding, on the individual - there should be negotiation, but in the case of irreconcilable differences, I think the minority has to comply or leave).
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50 damage. He smashes you dead. Next is...
Nice, concise, and to the point.
It lacked substance, it lacked description. You're more machine than man. Certainly not being a storyteller or a dm describing very much. It was an example of going through the motions, without life, or any conveyance of life's fragility. No excitement behind the hit, no power, no cool death move, nothing memorable. Simply, nothingness.
That is why you failed.
Nah. You'd be going on far too long (even just with that). My players would tell you to shut up and move it along. (And so would I, honestly.) Over-describing the killing blow, again and again and again, when the players mow through loads of opponents every session, would be a massive time-waster.
(So, if that's what TriOmegaZero's players wanted to hear, he didn't - couldn't, in fact - fail at anything.)
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So Jessica Price didn't answer a question I posed a few times.
She did, you just didn't like the answer
how would you describe a killing blow with a flail, that does 50 damage?
Hit me. :P
You could do it so many ways:
1)The ogre sneers at you, contempt writ large on his hideous face. “Dead,” he says, simply, succinctly. His scarred fist raises overhead. You know it’s coming. You SEE it coming, but the machine of muscle and bone is simply too fast. His flail whips out, its spiked head crashes into your helmet, snapping metal bands and bone alike. Grey matter sprays across the field, blood and teeth pouring from your head. In a final, mortal ignominy, your sphincters loosen, and you crumple into a pile of your own waste. The ogre bellows in triumph, bringing a huge, calloused heel down on your chest, shattering ribs, rendering your corpse a sack of pulped meat and offal.
2)The ogre’s eyes narrow. Its arm whips out, chorded muscles and tendons almost twanging with the speed and effort. Its flail cracks against your helm, the report sounding like a thunderclap. The crash is echoed as you smash into the ground, your vision fading to black.
3)The ogre’s flail slams into you, a killing blow. You slump to the ground, knowing you won’t be getting back up.
4)50 damage. You’re dead.
5)Boom. Adios.
The thing is, any of these, and a million other ways to describe it, will work at somebody's table. And they'll work to better effect than any other option.
There is no one right answer. You seem to think that there is. More than that, you seem to think that you need to teach it to us. I don't need you to tell me what makes my group happy. Answer number one, and any other gore-streaked equivalent, is going to turn my players off.
It's been stated time and time again that some people JUST DON'T LIKE GORE. They just don't.
It's been said plainly, succinctly, and without any sort of obfuscation at all. But you keep coming back with "Trust me, your game is going to be so much better with this stuff."
It's just not true. It's not going to be better for me. It's not going to be better for the people I play with. And it's kinda weird to me that you can't, or refuse to, see that.
Or that you're pretending that you can't.
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I'll take the 50-point-flail challenge.
As the orc brings his flail down with an overhand swing, you feel it impact your shoulder, the spikes penetrating your armor and skin. In response, you stagger, and the orc takes this opportunity to attack again, this time catching you squarely in the gut. Feeling your ribs crack, you wheeze, coughing up a small bit of blood.
Happy? And all this without pints and pints of blood.
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When a truly massive overkill blow is landed, I may say something like "The goblin is reduced to little more than red mist," as I knock the mini over with a flick of my finger. I'll shake my head ruefully at the poor goblin's fate, and my players will chortle or cheer with delight.
When I'm trying to get the status of an enemy across to my players, I'll say things like:
- He's a little scratched (<33% damage)
- He's obviously hurt, but looks like he can continue fighting for a while (> 33%, <67%)
- He's badly injured, one more solid blow may take him down (>67%)
- He's so damaged, you can't believe he's not already dead, but he's still, somehow, standing. (>100% {raging barbarian, die hard, etc.})
I have had games with horror fans and people who can't watch horror movies and sleep for the next 48 hours. This level of description works for my group. The occasional (still not too specific) description of ugly overkill blows makes it special, and my above descriptions of enemy status are clear, descriptive instead of being blandly numbers based, and doesn't cause problems for my more sensitive players.
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The Ogres massive flail crashes through the guard captains head, his body barely even changes posture from his futile defensive stance before he collapses dead on the ground. The rest of the guards watch in silent horror as the brute turns to the next combatant, his bellowing laughter being the only sound.
See, info about the cause of death, mood enhancing description, no mention of blood and gore whatsoever.
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[much stuff]
Furthermore, 3.5 Loyalist, let me ask you an honest question: have you ever been in a real combat situation where people tried to kill each other with swords and clubs, and hammers, etc ? Have you ever been part of a lethal encounter - not during the course of narrative fiction, but in real life ?
Of course, you haven't been.
Yes. In answer to the first part of your question. I am from the N.T.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-13/police-struggling-to-cope-with-nt-vio lence/4007950
Ha ! It seems I assumed too much about you, then, 3.5 Loyalist. That's one of the surest ways to make mistakes, for sure :-).
That being said... I think you're facetious in your answers, 3.5 Loyalist ;-). Surely you've grasped the point some of us have been trying to make ?
RPGs are storytelling games. They tell stories which can be about many things.
It seems you and your players like stories about (among other things, I'm sure) the brutality inherent in combats to the death, and maybe about the exhilaration of defeating your hated enemies, of breaking them to assert your dominance... Hmm, I'm still assuminng things there that may or may not be true, am I not ?
Anyway, people like Pippi like stories about heroism, doing the right thing in a world fraught with perils, and making that world a better place, notwithstanding the inevitable bloodshed and death in such an imperiled world.
The way you tell your stories is the better part of your stories.
And now, for something different...
A wise man presents to his disciple a round bottle with a living goose uncannily trapped in there.
- How did this goose end in that place ? asks the bewildered disciple to his master.
- That's not important, little butterfly. What is important is that you must now extricate the goose from the bottle, without breaking the bottle, or cutting it in any way, and without killing the goose. I want an intact bottle (I'm very fond of this bottle) and an intact and contented goose (I don't approve of hurting innocent animals to make a point).... You've got 5 minutes to do the deed, disciple, so : get to it !
Five minutes later.
- Master, I can't do it ! I can't extract that stupid goose from your damned bottle ! Also, I'm tired of the impossible tasks you regularly assign to me ! Maybe I should have gone to the fighting school, where students learn to do battle, and smash happily on each other all day long.
- Shush, little flower. Hear me now... "The goose is out of the bottle"... there, that's it !
0_° <----- stunned/disgusted reader, thinking "This is complete h&!%#!@~% ! I lost 2 minutes of my life reading Quiche Lisp's simpleton story ! I cry foul !"
There's no goose.
There's no bottle.
There's no blood and gore.
There's no spoon and there aren't even any disciple nor any master*.
These are just words.
* and I'm not really sure there is a Quiche Lisp, either ;-).
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It lacked substance, it lacked description. You're more machine than man. Certainly not being a storyteller or a dm describing very much. It was an example of going through the motions, without life, or any conveyance of life's fragility. No excitement behind the hit, no power, no cool death move, nothing memorable. Simply, nothingness.
That is why you failed.
And you say you aren't telling us how to run our games.
None of my players care about any of that.
If they have never drank apple juice, and you have never given them apple juice, how do you know they won't like the apple juice you give them?
If you've never drank blood, and you've never been given blood, how do you know you won't like the blood I give you?
The way you tell your stories is the better part of your stories.
Very nice. Why is it I can never write anything this elegantly?
Sigh.
The way you tell your stories is the better part of your stories.
Very nice. Why is it I can never write anything this elegantly?
Sigh.
Thank you for your appreciation, Pippi :-).
Honestly, in my opinion, you're one of the posters who made his(her) point the more concisely and eloquently during this whole thread.
Locking thread. This has gone well beyond decorum and taste.