I don't see what the advantages are.
In theory, flexibility.
You can, for example, tune your blasts to the shape needed for a particular tactical situation. Pump out lines of fire in enclosed tunnels, or bursts and cones in open fields.
You can add metamagic on the fly using meta-words, or combine effects to get multiple small effects in a single casting action.
With a relatively small number of words, even a prepared caster can get a wider selection of effects. If I'm going into a tunnel full of lava mephits, I can prepare lots of different line cold spells; against a graveyard full of ghosts, I can prepare lots of different force effects, using most of the same words, just changing cold to force.
The problem is that the designers used a poor set of words that are unduly limiting.
And, yes, there's nothing that you can do with WoP that you can't do with custom spells. The difference is that a custom spell takes months to research, and a WoP spell takes a standard action.
You forgot the "haste" word spell grants an extra move action or an extra attack. That is useful because it means a Fighter can move and full attack.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Market test?
- Pathfinder is grounded in a system based on specific expectations.
- Some people are interested in a system like words of power.
- A complete lack of change leads to stagnation; remember, change does not need to be all-encompassing or large, it can instead be very small so long as it is interesting and useful
If they did put together a words of power system and it was good enough, and the market was right enough that their audience began playing with it and running with it in larger numbers...
...then it would be a potential route they could take through development.
Alternately, it's just answering a niche who are interested in that sort of system.
Or it's both.
Pathfinder is grounded in a system based on specific expectations.
Some people are interested in a system like words of power.
This.
I'm very much a fan of roll-your-own spells; one of my favorite systems is Ars Magica (q.v.) for precisely that reason. It makes magic, in my opinion, much more magical when you can easily and quickly make it do exactly what you want, without needing spells that are overpowered. (Yes, I know that a Wish spell can also do exactly what I want, but it is a 9th level spell and costs a fortune. If I want a spell that lets me turn a twig into a quarterstaff, I don't have a lot of options in D&D/Pathfinder.)
I therefore approve of something like Words of Power, but I think the implementation in Pathfinder isn't very good. But I've not had a lot of chances to play them (partly because most of the GM's I've worked with think the system adds complexity without fun).
Could it be used for "low magic" campaigns?
Not especially well (IMHO). The WoP system still has most of the core spells in it, and it scales just as fast as core spells. For example, "Fire Blast" is still a third-level wizard spell that does 1d6 damage per level. If you're trying to get a low-magic feel, this is just as unrealistically high magic as a traditional Fireball spell.
The nerfs are more annoying and more subtle; Fire Blast has a substantially shorter range and a marginally smaller area of effect. So what you have is basically the same spell with the same epic high-magic feeling, at the same level, only with a more limited tactical application.
The advantage is that you get with WoP is that with the same "Fire Blast" spell you get a fireball, but also a fire barrier, a fire bolt, a fire cone, and a single-target fire spell. One spell, five tactical applications. (Which may be why they nerfed the range and volume from Fireball.)
Buffs that give martials move and full attack options
Standard action summons
Better Blast spell (NOTE: you can't make a spells that does more dice in damage than your lvl). WAY batter blast spells. Like 20d6 per round with nauseate better or 20d8 fort save or deafen. High level evocations are worth it to cast.
A sorcerer with human favorite class basically gets all the words of power he could ever want (unless you are forced to grab spells instead, but that really isn't nerf). If I was a wizard, I wouldn't touch WoP with a 10ft pole.
For divines. Healing sucks (no heal spell), but res and removal of negative levels is FREE and a standard action (combat res).
Druids get the best of both worlds, but if they can't spare the feats to get more uses of meta words they are gonna have a bad time. (meta word boost is used in like ever high level spell, without feats you only get a 10 meta words by 20, the feat gives 3).
From a power-gaming perspective, it's mostly just the Accelerate and Undeath Words. You could easily sink two feats into experimental spellcaster and have pretty much all the good words at your disposal (this is a great deal for sorcerers, for obvious reasons).
I think the idea is to a give a "primitive" feel to spellcasting. If I were running a bronze-age style campaign I'd mandate words of power for spellcasters.
Expanding on a few other points made:
LOCK WARD - this mofo is a feat-equivalent Effect Word. You want Brew Potion? How about having up to attached to a locket?
Much better blasts. Horror Slay comes to mind (flat 350 damage, 9th level spell, can tack on metawords to adjust the save) or Lengthy Intensified Corrosive Bolt (40d4 Acid damage over 4 rounds at level 10, no save, can crit, 3rd level spell with metamagic and metaword). Obviously, you pair the second one with the Orc bloodline and maybe Crossblooded for the bonus damage.
Speaking of Crossblooded, there's no disadvantage to the archetype in WoP. You still get the spell slots on odd levels, which means you can combine Wordspells into them.
Heightened is effectively a free bonus feat.
While you specifically call out custom spells, GMs frequently have mixed feelings on them due to unforeseen consequences or put a punitive amount of time on research. WoP are already written out and in a Paizo official source.
While many staple spells from standard casting are not duplicated in WoP, there are several in WoP that are not seen in standard casting, either. Body Words have a lot of these.
Spells known efficiency: Soar (the Fly equivalent) can be boosted instead of getting Mass Fly as a second spell. Other equivalents exist, as well.
Ranged healing: Healing Words are Selected target, which means you can ranged touch and crit with them. You can't do that standard casting.
The main problem with the system is that it tries to fit a more narrative system of magic into a game that's not well suited for it. A clever GM with a good deal of system mastery can arbitrate it well, but the system is really not designed to handle it.
Their way to fix this is to decrease its power level, in an attempt to reign in the power the flexibility grants, but... it doesn't do it well. I generally just gloss over it. It's a mechanic that didn't work; I won't use it, but I don't want the fact it didn't work to prevent paizo from coming up with innovative ideas for the future, which might work out. I have enough faith in the design team for that, at least.
Yea, definately you can do some things with WOP that you can't do with normal spells. But you can't do a LOT of the normal spell effects either, even really basic ones. You don't even get a open/close cantrip. Stuff like magic missle is also inexplicably higher level despite being exactly the same. A 1st level magic missle is useful. A 2nd level magic missle is useless.
Well, this is actually a good thing in my view. Paizo has learned from the mistakes of other companies and is trying to avoid splatbook power creep. One of the major issues plaguing D&D, for example, was that core-only characters were basically useless because the cheese in all of the supplemental books was simply better than anything in core. If you have a non-core option that is better than core in some ways and no worse than core in any way, why would you ever play a core character?
(Quinggong monk, for example, comes close to that; at least with my reading of the rules, it gives you the option of swapping out any monk abilities that you don't like for ones that you do. This means that in the absolute worst case, you are identical to a core monk, but can only make choices that improve your character. Why would anyone ever play a core monk with this option on the table?)
So there's a basic design principle that Paizo has tried to follow, where if you gain something, you also have to lose something. If you don't like the absence of certain effects in WoP, you can always use the core spell set. If you don't like the lack of flexibility in core, you can use WoP instead. You can even spend feats to merge the two. But you can't do everything-in-core-and-a-bag-of-chips for reasons that should be pretty obvious.
Heightened isn't a free feat, you have to use two much lower level effects for a higher level slot. You can't bump cramp up to 1st level for example, you have to combine it with another cantrip (which is going to be useless) in order to get a 2nd level DC and which uses a 2nd level slot. That's a lot worse than just heighten, unless you are mixing two beneficial effects together.
Well, it's different than heighten. If you want pure heighten, you can take the feat as per usual. It would (again) be poor game design to give you everything-heighten-can-do-and-a-bag-of-chips, because who would ever want just heighten?
I don't think you can crit with ranged healing spells. I'm pretty sure beneficial ranged touchs are auto hit, even if it isn't and you roll to hit, you can miss with them (not what you want to do).
So, first you're complaining that ranged touches are auto hit (which they aren't), and then that they aren't? It sounds like you're just complaining to complain at this point. If you're seriously motivated by the possibility of critical ranged touch attacks, you will invest in the rest of the character structure that makes them useful. From a pure game-theoretic standpoint, it's not hard to make the chance of missing substantially lower than the chance of getting a critical hit, although it's a substantial design investment.
But purely from a tactical aspect, the idea that my oh-so-fragile archer bard can heal people without being in melee range of the BBEG is a great idea.
I don't think the blast spell options are very good in the first place because you are often better off buffing or using a save or suck spell...
This is actually a strong point in favor of WoP, precisely because blasting does not work well in core. WoP makes a blaster more effective.
If you think that Save or Suck is a more effective caster, then that argues that some love for blasters is needed to give the people who like blasting a more fun experience.
If you think that Save or Suck is just not your style of play,.... no one is forcing you to use Words of Power.
CAUSTIC CLOUD (ACID)
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level sorcerer/wizard 7, witch 6
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude half; Spell Resistance no
Target Restrictions burst
A wordspell with this effect word creates a cloud of noxious green vapor that obscures vision. Creatures caught in the cloud take 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) and are fatigued. Creatures caught in the cloud receive a Fortitude save to halve the damage and to negate the fatigued effect. Creatures that remain in the cloud take a cumulative –2 penalty on the save each round they remain in the cloud, but spending just 1 round outside the cloud's area resets this penalty. Creatures in the cloud that are fatigued become exhausted on a failed saving throw. A strong wind, such as that created by a gust of wind, disperses this cloud immediately.
TRUE FIRE (FIRE)
School evocation [fire]; Level druid 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Target Restrictions selected
This effect word deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6).
ICE BLAST (COLD)
School evocation [cold]; Level druid 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
This effect deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 10d6). A target that fails its saving throw is entangled by the ice for 1d4 rounds.
WINTER'S WRATH (COLD)
School evocation [cold]; Level druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude half; Spell Resistance yes
Target Restrictions burst
A wordspell with this effect word creates an area of blizzardlike conditions. Anyone inside the area when it forms, and at the start of the caster's turn, takes 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) and 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. A Fortitude save halves this damage and negates the Dexterity damage. Creatures immune to cold damage do not take the Dexterity damage. Because of the heavy snow and winds, visibility is reduced to 5 feet inside the blizzard. Effects that deal fire damage do not harm anyone inside this blizzard unless they are of a level equal to or higher than the wordspell with this effect word.
THUNDER STRIKE (ELECTRICITY)
School evocation [electricity]; Level druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8, witch 9
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
This effect word deals 1d8 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 20d8). In addition, a target that fails its saving throw against this damage is deafened for 1 round per caster level.
|||||||||||||||||||||Low levels||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DISCORDANT NOTE (SONIC)
School evocation [sonic]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, magus 2
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude half and partial; Spell Resistance yes
This effect word deals 1d4 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 5d4) and causes the targets to become staggered for 1 round. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the staggered condition.
CORROSIVE BOLT (ACID)
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Duration 1 round/level (see text)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Target Restrictions selected
A wordspell with this effect word deals 1d4 points of acid damage per level of the wordcaster (maximum 5d4). On the following round, the target takes this damage again. Hitting a target with a wordspell with this effect word requires a ranged touch attack.
NOTE: meta word boost on a target word does not increase the level of the effect word only the target word. (except for selected) Therefore fire ball is a medium range 20ft radius burst instead of a long-range 30ft spread. It has a bigger area of effect. 5th level blast spells can be long range with a 40ft radius effect (like meteor swarms AoE)
NOTE2: The long duration spells can make effective blasting barriers.
It's an interesting system, but being labeled as "optional rules" from the start pretty much ensures it won't have any expansions for a long while.
Which is probably why most players don't care much for it.
BTW, is the WoP system allowed in PFS?
No it is not allowed in PFS. Not that that means much to people who don't play PFS.
I think paizo has a policy of not touching released products once they are out, other than issueing erratas.
I'm sure everyone can think of plenty of things that has been broken and released for years and paizo has just flat out refused to touch them.
Not true, they touched on the monk a few times (first nerfs then boosts).
Look at it this way, you're comparing the vast list of spells that have been released (Core, APG, UM, UC, ISM) to one chapter of one book? I'm really not sure that's fair.
It's a fun system, its not for everyone, but its fun. Honestly if you are just playing "The Best" spell of every level, for every class, all the time.... doesn't the game become boring?
I'll take a Word Sorc. (or Oracle for that matter) over a standard one any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Probably the best way to use it is to play a standard sorcerer who takes the Experimental Spellcaster feat. The first time you take it, you get all the target words, the boost metamagic word and an effect word. Every other time you take it, you get two additional words.
So, you get all your regular spells as a normal Sorcerer, and get to pick and choose the best 2 words per level.
Winter's wrath and the Servitor line of summoning spells. Standard action summons are very nice.
EDIT: And the Life words. standard action free resurrections with free permanent negative level removal. Yes please.
Lock Ward is the single most powerful Effect Word in the entire system. It is your Brew Potion equivalent as a Word instead of a feat, but it also handles the Explosive Runes role. Every spare slot at night can be spent casting buff spells onto lockets or blast spells onto vials.
Ever want your Sorceror to have the Bomb class feature from Alchemist? Yup, got that, but with a higher dice pool and 5-6 discoveries built in.
There is, hands down, no better Word in the system.
Dot for interest.
Expanding on my Lock Ward rant because I have more time, here are some Wordspells that utilize this brutal Effect Word.
9th level:
Selected Lock Ward Permanent Paralysis
7th level:
Selected Lock Ward Unfetter
Selected Lock Ward Boost Monstrous Form
Selected Lock Ward Energy Immunity
6th level:
Selected Lock Ward Crush Will
5th level:
Selected Lock Ward Perfect Form
Intensified Selected Lock Ward Lengthy Corrosive Bolt
4th level:
Selected Lock Ward Friendship
Selected Lock Ward Complex Command
Selected Lock Ward Enhance Body
Selected Lock Ward Disappear
Selected Lock Ward Soar
Selected Lock Ward Translate
Selected Lock Ward Fire Blast
This is just a selection of 2 Effect choices. You can move up to 3 Effects pretty easily.
Hmm, wondering how i can make my wizard take advantage of WOP. At level 5 i can take experimental spellcaster and get the undeath word i guess....
For a level 5 wizard, Far Sight is another handy effect word; it's way better than Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, and the boosted word is more versatile than Scrying in some ways.
Funny action economy thought: You could lock ward your Alchemist's vials after he preps extracts, or lock ward the vials of store-bought potions if you wanted to. Still the normal "find and drink potion" actions, but you then get a spell, too.
|
I think the idea is to a give a "primitive" feel to spellcasting. If I were running a bronze-age style campaign I'd mandate words of power for spellcasters.
Agreed. I used the WoP system in two one-shot adventures that also featured slighlty different classes, and it was the general consensus that the game "inner mechanism" had such a feeling.
BTW, it was also very well received, and thusly it will be a staple in future campaigns.
So if i understand it correctly, lock ward isn't very useful until you can combine higher level effects into one effect?
It's most useful as a triggering effect, yes. On the other hand, the ability to use downtime to create a nearly unlimited number of micro-fireball fire bombs would put the alchemist to shame. Essentially, it turns a 5th level wizard into an awesome grenadier. Imagine my wandering around with a bag of M&M's, and every time I bite into one, I breathe a 20' cone of fire doing 3d6 points of damage.
What are the best effect words in your opinion? There's accelerate and undeath obviously, any others?
I think "the best" effect words are the combinations.
The problem with debuff spells is that no one ever died from a debuff. The problem with blasting spells is that until you die, they don't hamper you at all.
The combinations are awesome.
* You can do substantial hit point damage
* You can apply a substantial debuff
* Both effects scale with level to so the spells are still effective at higher levels
* You only spend a single action
... and if you play your cards right, you can tune the spells to your opponent.
Burning Flash allows a Reflex save, Wrack allows a Fort save, Simple Order allows a Will save. Combining them lets you choose the saving throw type, so you can make sure the cleric uses his Reflex save to avoid your command effect.
One of my players ran a wordcaster sorcerer up to level 17 and he ended up being a very effective blaster. No matter what the situation was he could cast a spell with exactly the AOE shape and element that he needed.
Also, wordcasters can create some extremely powerful effects that no one else can replicate. The most frightening one that I've seen is a selected AOE improved invisibility for the entire party. Every time the player used this I had to have an entire group of enemies run for their lives.
One of my players ran a wordcaster sorcerer up to level 17 and he ended up being a very effective blaster. No matter what the situation was he could cast a spell with exactly the AOE shape and element that he needed.
Also, wordcasters can create some extremely powerful effects that no one else can replicate. The most frightening one that I've seen is a selected AOE improved invisibility for the entire party. Every time the player used this I had to have an entire group of enemies run for their lives.
To be fair, that is a 6th level spell, and at that point, I rather expect the casters to cast the "veni vidi vici" spells.
@Matrix Dragon: You linked the incorrect Effect Word. The correct one is this:
Disappear (Concealing)
School illusion (glamer); Level alchemist 2, bard 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2, witch 2
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selected
This effect word functions as fade, but with a longer duration.
Boost: The target does not become visible if it attacks or takes an offensive action. Boosting this effect word increases its level by 2.
That makes it a 7th level Wordspell. If the caster has 9th level slots, it could be made even more crazy with Accelerate added on.
@Question: Yes, Lock Ward is only good once you have higher level spell slots. That said, you were looking at taking Experimental Spellcaster once you actually have slots that could make use of it.
@Orfamay Quest: Lock Ward forces the Selected target word. This makes it better than Explosive Rune for targeted killing, but worse for other things. It also specifies that only the person opening the object is the targeted.
The Selected target word makes it one target per level.
You guys aren't reading the entire effect word. There are a few key parts to Unseen Shell.
1: A wordspell with this effect word makes any objects or creatures designated by the caster invisible. This means you don't make enemies invisible unless you want to.
2: You can boost Unseen Shell to a 6th level effect word to make it so the targets don't lose their invisibility when they attack.
3: Unseen Shell is a burst, so you can select an unlimited number of allies within the radius.
...but yes, you are right Serisan, Disappear is better if you can cast 7th level spells since it doesn't have a limited area of effect. I'm going to have to hope my player never figures that out, hahaha.
The Selected target word makes it one target per level.
Matrix Dragon is using the wrong word; try Disappear.
Also i don't understand why basic spells like magic missle/mage armor were HEAVILY nerfed into useleness in the WOP versions?
Because WoP is not supposed to be better in all regards than traditional spell casting, or it would introduce substantial power creep.
Also, one minute per level is not useless, esp. when you can do multiple buffs in a single action. And a force spell that does five dice of damage at level 5 instead of 9 is hardly "nerfed into uselessness."
This seems to be an idee fixe. Different is not necessarily nerfed.
I don't think anyone ever looked at magic missle and thought "wow this is so OPed, this needs to be level 2". Or thought that a 1 hr/level mage armor is OPed.
No one looked at Ressurection and said "this is too weak," either. Different is not nerfed.