Feat: Magical Physician [Special]
prerequisite: Able to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: Arcane caster has access to be able to learn the cure wounds and inflict wounds series of spells. The limit is that the cure versions of the spells are unable to heal beyond the caster's total bonus to their Heal skill. Any result that would exceed this amount is lost.
All cure spells learned by means of access to this feat are considered Transmutation, rather then their original school.
This feat gives the caster automatic access to 'Minor Wound' spell. The spells afterwards are learned as a single spell and may only be learned as the spell(s) gained per level, by a feat, learned from another caster's repertoire who has the spell access by using this feat or by successful spell research. They are unable to learn them from scrolls, divine casters, or other means.
New Spell access-
Level 0: Minor wounds. Caster chooses to use the effect as if Bleed or Stabilize on casting. Effect of Stabilize requires a successful heal check that is granted as a free action for purposes of this spell.
Level 1: Light Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Light Wounds or Inflict Light Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Level 2: Moderate Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Moderate Wounds or Inflict Moderate Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Level 3: Serious Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Serious Wounds or Inflict Serious Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Level 4: Critical Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Critical Wounds or Inflict Critical Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Note that despite begin granted to the possible access to the cure wounds spells through out the levels, the effect is minimized by having a ceiling of the caster's heal skill bonus, not roll. The use of the higher level spells contains lesser returns as that ceiling becomes more restrictive. The Heal skill represents the level of detail that the caster can concentrate on of mending injuries. It is possible to get bonuses both permanent and temporary to the Heal skill though the various means. This Heal bonus counts for purposes of the maximum HP healed by a spell.
Eh, there are prestige classes that do that better.
Urist The Unstoppable wrote: Eh, there are prestige classes that do that better. They must be ones I'm not very familiar with. Besides I wanted a 'sciency' flavor of arcane casters to cure wounds.
Shain Edge wrote: Urist The Unstoppable wrote: Eh, there are prestige classes that do that better. They must be ones I'm not very familiar with. Besides I wanted a 'sciency' flavor of arcane casters to cure wounds. THe Prestige class is here
Or you could just play a chirugeon alchemist.
Quintin Belmont wrote: Shain Edge wrote: Urist The Unstoppable wrote: Eh, there are prestige classes that do that better. They must be ones I'm not very familiar with. Besides I wanted a 'sciency' flavor of arcane casters to cure wounds. THe Prestige class is here
Or you could just play a chirugeon alchemist. Thank you for the link. It has some good points. I wouldn't say it is 'better', just different. I am not looking for alchemy, since they are not pure spell casters.
I'm looking at potential for dedicated spell classes to open up their spell repertoire, to spells that are closed to them because of a simple arbitrary decision.
That makes me believe that there should be some way for pure spell casters to pick up spells that are otherwise outside their 'specialty'. They may not be as good as a caster that has the benefit of their god flowing through them, but they should have some rudimentary ability to cast the spells.
In this case, I am changing the wounds spells to transmutation. I have a difficult time trying to understand why they are schooled as 'conjuration'. They don't 'conjure' anything. You might use Evocation, to bring in positive energy, or transmutation, which is changing the person from wounded to unwounded.
In this case, I'm looking at making the wounds spells, transmutation, because it makes sense for them to be there. You are either mending flesh, or warping to damage it.
Mending flesh is tougher and the person needs a grasp of the living condition to perform that magic, rather then rely on the intuitive nature of the divine. So someone of low caliber knowledge of healing could cause the surface of the skin to close, but that doesn't really do much, to a surgeon's level which allows for most of the major damage to be corrected, including broken bones and removal of scarring.
Quintin Belmont wrote: Shain Edge wrote: Urist The Unstoppable wrote: Eh, there are prestige classes that do that better. They must be ones I'm not very familiar with. Besides I wanted a 'sciency' flavor of arcane casters to cure wounds. THe Prestige class is here
Or you could just play a chirugeon alchemist. Or a cleric. I hear cure / cause wounds is kinda their schtick. (One of their schticks at least.)
OP: Why do you believe the wizard (one of the most powerful classes in the game) needs a feat that allows them to step on other classes toes? The "arbitrary" decision to close off certain types of magic to wizards is also known as balance.
That said, the cure / cause wounds are conjuration rather than evocation because they don't actually create said element, they pull it from elsewhere. Evocation deals with the creation of energy (fireball, for example, is created fire, it isn't fire pulled from the elemental plane of fire) conjuration gets to handle moving energy across the planes.
The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard.
Clerics get a huge benefit. They can cast spells in heavy armor with no penalty. They get an automatic AoE healing ability. They get the ability to exchanged memorized spells into Cure Wounds Spells.
Yes, this is their shtick. But letting a wizard be able to learn how to cure wounds doesn't step on those toes very hard. It takes a memorization slot. It lets them cure wounds, but the Cleric still has the mastery of it that the wizard can not even begin to close the distance to.
Wizards should be allowed to be generalists, which means access to all magic, but with the effect that it takes a price to extend themselves beyond the normal comfort zone. In the case of the feat I'm tossing out there, it assumes that most wizards don't cast cure wounds spells, because they have to stretch to actually know how to affect a living thing to repair the wounds. Most wizards don't have 'skill' in healing, there for, do not have the knowledge to cast the spells in their cure forms to any effect.
There's already a skill for this. Use Magic Device.
If you want a feat for it, there's Skill Focus (Use Magic Device).
I think you're pushing the real cheese if you want to make a specialised feat to go even further. If you do, I think you'd want Skill Focus to be a pre-req, at a minimum.
Avatar-1 wrote: There's already a skill for this. Use Magic Device.
If you want a feat for it, there's Skill Focus (Use Magic Device).
I think you're pushing the real cheese if you want to make a specialised feat to go even further. If you do, I think you'd want Skill Focus to be a pre-req, at a minimum.
If casters already have access to healing spells, via Use Magic Device, then what is the problem for casters to have direct access to the spells?
Casters DO have access to healing spells; those casters are called clerics, druids, and paladins.
And you're OK with clerics throwing around fireballs and black tentacles and Enlarge Person, totally outclassing the wizards, right? Because that's what an open casting system means.
Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard.
...um ok, wow.
+5 Toaster wrote: Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard.
...um ok, wow. I agree, Toaster. I read that and was left speechless.
Calybos1 wrote: Casters DO have access to healing spells; those casters are called clerics, druids, and paladins. Bards, Alchemists, and Witches are all arcane classes that have Cure\Inflict spells on their spell lists.
Not disagreeing with your sentiment, just pointing out that there are arcane 'healers'.
Calybos1 wrote: Casters DO have access to healing spells; those casters are called clerics, druids, and paladins.
And you're OK with clerics throwing around fireballs and black tentacles and Enlarge Person, totally outclassing the wizards, right? Because that's what an open casting system means.
Clerics have some pretty decent damage spells, including access to Enlarge Person, fireball and disintegrate. Not only that, but they can cast those spells in Full Plate armor.
Shain Edge wrote: Calybos1 wrote: Casters DO have access to healing spells; those casters are called clerics, druids, and paladins.
And you're OK with clerics throwing around fireballs and black tentacles and Enlarge Person, totally outclassing the wizards, right? Because that's what an open casting system means.
Clerics have some pretty decent damage spells, including access to Enlarge Person, fireball and disintegrate. Not only that, but they can cast those spells in Full Plate armor. and wizards can maximize, intensify, heighten, still, silent, and enlarge all those same spells. they also get more of them to choose from, and get all types bonus' to their caster level.
+5 Toaster wrote: Shain Edge wrote:
Clerics have some pretty decent damage spells, including access to Enlarge Person, fireball and disintegrate. Not only that, but they can cast those spells in Full Plate armor.
and wizards can maximize, intensify, heighten, still, silent, and enlarge all those same spells. they also get more of them to choose from, and get all types bonus' to their caster level. Maybe it is just me, but I tend not to care for the majority of MetaMagic feats. But again, clerics still over-run Wizards because, they can cast their magic in front line situations wearing the heaviest armors. They have a better BAB. They have better HP. They are not excluded from any of the feats you presented. They have access to very powerful offensive magic, from Phantasmal Killer, Fireball, Disintegrate, as well as lots of buff spells.
With all of this, why are you opposed to Wizards being able to cast Cure Spells? Other 'arcane' casters can cast such spells.
Because it essentially looks like you want to build an uber-wizard class that has no drawbacks or balancing aspects to offset their omnipotent casting abilities.
That would kill the fun of every non-wizard at the table.
Calybos1 wrote: Because it essentially looks like you want to build an uber-wizard class that has no drawbacks or balancing aspects to offset their omnipotent casting abilities.
That would kill the fun of every non-wizard at the table.
Wizards have the _worst_ AC/HP/BAB as well as the worst Ref and Fort saves. That is hardly the mark of an Uber-character.
Da'ath wrote: +5 Toaster wrote: Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard.
...um ok, wow. I agree, Toaster. I read that and was left speechless. Ditto.
The wizard is a 'glass cannon'. That's its niche in the fantasy genre. It can pump out massive amounts of damage, generally without the fears of missing that a martial character has (since they most frequently roll either against Touch AC, or don't roll at all), when properly constructed.
It is intended to be a back-row DPSer, and when played properly and with the appropriate build, that's exactly what it does.
Attempting to justify giving them access to healing spells because they are supposedly weaker than a class built for completely different purposes isn't going to work. It's arguing a 'straw man'. And I don't mean this to be offensive*, but if your wizard isn't performing on par with martial classes, it's not an issue with the class but with the specific build that you are using (or the playstyle).
*which of course means it probably will come off that way no matter how I say it
Actually a wizard isn't a glass cannon, nor are they meant to dish out massive amounts of damage (with the exception of some very specific builds). At least not since second edition. Wizards are meant to straight up end encounters.
Xaratherus wrote: Attempting to justify giving them access to healing spells because they are supposedly weaker than a class built for completely different purposes isn't going to work. It's arguing a 'straw man'. And I don't mean this to be offensive*, but if your wizard isn't performing on par with martial classes, it's not an issue with the class but with the specific build that you are using (or the playstyle). Actually, I justify it based on the access to other spells they can cast, and thematically, that 'should' include healing. If you can transmute someone into a different creature, why can you not transmute their wounds closed?
I was defending the position that it was not 'good at everything' by pointing out that they are the worst in the majority of the basic traits.
They can only memorize so many spells and while in combat, they have to choose which spell they want to cast each round. Why worry about it if they just happen to decide that their fighter needs a healing boost while the cleric has been silenced? (Heck, the wizard could be the one silenced, then they are almost a non-character for purposes of the encounter.)
Wizards and Clerics are apples and oranges.
Divine Magic is mainly defensive, with a splash of offensive.
Arcane Magic is offensive, defensive, utility, and almost anything else you could want. Thats the benefit of being an Arcane caster.
Bards and Witches have access to Cure as they're bridges between Arcane and Divine.
Druids get access to a lot of control spells and offensive spells to help separate them from Clerics.
Wizards also get infernal healing. So, there's your healing spell you wanted. They also get access to the Greater version as well. Wands of Infernal Healing are the new Wands of Lesser Vigor (from 3.5)
Also, any wizard who would WASTE memorized spells on a cure - is not building a very good wizard.
dunebugg wrote: Wizards and Clerics are apples and oranges.
Divine Magic is mainly defensive, with a splash of offensive.
Arcane Magic is offensive, defensive, utility, and almost anything else you could want. Thats the benefit of being an Arcane caster.
Bards and Witches have access to Cure as they're bridges between Arcane and Divine.
Druids get access to a lot of control spells and offensive spells to help separate them from Clerics.
Wizards also get infernal healing. So, there's your healing spell you wanted. They also get access to the Greater version as well. Wands of Infernal Healing are the new Wands of Lesser Vigor (from 3.5)
Also, any wizard who would WASTE memorized spells on a cure - is not building a very good wizard.
A _lot_ of people seem to think that the only way to build a character is by min-maxing them to the last point. I am not one of those people. I prefer RP flavor to hard numbers.
So if a wizard wants to 'waste' a spell slot in memorizing a cure spell, why not let them?
Your argument about divine magic is not very offensive isn't building an offensive cleric, which can have access to _powerful_ offensive magic through their domains.
If you can build clerics with some of the best offensive spells a wizard has, why can't a wizard have access to healing spells to back up the cleric?
I'm one of those DMs that push the RP aspect of the [evil] part of infernal healing. No player/npc character who worries about where their soul is going to in the afterlife wants to mess with the spell.
Shain Edge wrote: Feat: Magical Physician [Special]
prerequisite: Able to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: Arcane caster has access to be able to learn the cure wounds and inflict wounds series of spells. The limit is that the cure versions of the spells are unable to heal beyond the caster's total bonus to their Heal skill. Any result that would exceed this amount is lost.
All cure spells learned by means of access to this feat are considered Transmutation, rather then their original school.
This feat gives the caster automatic access to 'Minor Wound' spell. The spells afterwards are learned as a single spell and may only be learned as the spell(s) gained per level, by a feat, learned from another caster's repertoire who has the spell access by using this feat or by successful spell research. They are unable to learn them from scrolls, divine casters, or other means.
New Spell access-
Level 0: Minor wounds. Caster chooses to use the effect as if Bleed or Stabilize on casting. Effect of Stabilize requires a successful heal check that is granted as a free action for purposes of this spell.
Level 1: Light Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Light Wounds or Inflict Light Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Level 2: Moderate Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Moderate Wounds or Inflict Moderate Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Level 3: Serious Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Serious Wounds or Inflict Serious Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Level 4: Critical Wounds. Caster may cause the effect of either Cure Critical Wounds or Inflict Critical Wounds upon casting of this spell.
Note that despite begin granted to the possible access to the cure wounds spells through out the levels, the effect is minimized by having a ceiling of the caster's heal skill bonus, not roll. The use of the higher level spells contains lesser returns as that ceiling becomes more restrictive. The Heal skill represents the level of detail that the caster can concentrate on of mending...
I think its fine, but I don't mind bending balance a little. I would probably allow it only for certain characters, and make a prerequisite of Skill Focus (Heal, along with a high wis preq, to make it a little less of "must have" and maybe just limit it to cures if I were to use something like this, along with X amount of Heal Ranks.
I like the idea of magical healers in a campaign setting, and have unreliable gods (and curative magic isn't SOLELY in the hands of the divine) so wizards can research curing spells. But they'd have to put effort into it, a lot of it.
Shain Edge wrote: I'm one of those DMs that push the RP aspect of the [evil] part of infernal healing. No player/npc character who worries about where their soul is going to in the afterlife wants to mess with the spell. Infernal Healing only reads as [evil] because it uses devil blood. Have your wizard research a version that uses Celestial blood instead, instant good-aligned healing spell.
At the very least, if you give wizard cure spell access, don't them let choose whether to cast cure or inflict at time of casting (two spells in one), and give it to them at the same rate as Druid + Witch (Cure Light is a 1st level spell, then Cure Mod is 3rd level, Serious is 4th, and Critical is 5th).
Domains always give level-later access to spells they don't otherwise have access to (Disintegrate as a 7th level spell, Fireball as 4th, etc).
The general consensus around the forums is that the casting classes (wizard in particular due to conditionally unlimited versatility) are the "win button" for particularly skilled players. They don't need high HP or BAB because they bypass most of these with careful spell selection and good preparation on the part of the player. The "Save or Suck" and "Save or Die" spells are famous for rendering most metrics of combat effectiveness meaningless. This combined with particularly nasty trait/feat combinations to heighten save DCs and caster level mean that people are afraid of giving wizards power, simply because it potentially adds to the options for what is already seen as a powerful min-maxing option.
If you want to go the route of introducing arcane healing to wizards, I would suggest creating Transmutation spells different from that of the standard Cure spells. Make sure they don't compare favorably to a Cleric doing its job, or people will scratch their head as to why to keep using a Cleric when another Wizard can cover that job okay, and convert to doing another job when it's needed.
I would suggest for the low levels having the spells convert lethal damage into nonlethal, which contributes well towards making the Cleric still feel important- it makes her healing go twice as far when she does get around to it. (Helping someone else do their job better is preferable to just doing it for them; at least, when you have a role you fill already. It avoids making them feel useless.)
Robert Carter 58 wrote:
I think its fine, but I don't mind bending balance a little. I would probably allow it only for certain characters, and make a prerequisite of Skill Focus (Heal, along with a high wis preq, to make it a little less of "must have" and maybe just limit it to cures if I were to use something like this, along with X amount of Heal Ranks.
I like the idea of magical healers in a campaign setting, and have unreliable gods (and curative magic isn't SOLELY in the hands of the divine) so wizards can research curing spells. But they'd have to put effort into it, a lot of it.
That was my thought on the entire thing. Though with the limitation I placed on it, Skill focus(heal) is likely not needed to be mandatory, since the effect is rather weak without (and even with) the effect, after all Heal isn't a wizard skill, so at the first level, without a high WIS or Skill focus will be healing only a single HP per casting. Skill focus is definitely a huge improvement to this giving up to 4hp of healing per spell casting, not assuming WIS bonus.
Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard. This actually made me laugh... Then I was sad...
Parka wrote: I would suggest for the low levels having the spells convert lethal damage into nonlethal, which contributes well towards making the Cleric still feel important- it makes her healing go twice as far when she does get around to it. (Helping someone else do their job better is preferable to just doing it for them; at least, when you have a role you fill already. It avoids making them feel useless.) A lot of complaints I'm receiving assumes that the wizard healing, to my feat addition, will be somehow measurable to a cleric healing.
When you get down to the numbers, the Wizard healing I'm suggesting is far inferior. At first level, without a high WIS cutting out desired INT, you are only going to heal 1 or up to 4 points per spell, depending if you also take Skill Focus (Heal), on top of the Magical Physician feat.
Lemmy wrote: Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard. This actually made me laugh... Then I was sad... Well, I _used_ to think a wizard was the king of DPS, then I read a few threads that compared them to Fighters. Once you pull in magic resistance, saving throws and the like, Fighters, not Wizards are DPS marshal's.
Shain Edge wrote: Lemmy wrote: Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard. This actually made me laugh... Then I was sad... Well, I _used_ to think a wizard was the king of DPS, then I read a few threads that compared them to Fighters. Once you pull in magic resistance, saving throws and the like, Fighters, not Wizards are DPS marshal's. Most people are trying to say that DPS doesn't matter if you are bypassing the hit point track. Incapacitating foes and taking a Coup de Grace is more effective- or just killing them outright.
Edit: Or charming them to your cause, or making them flee, or drowning them in large numbers of summoned/called/charmed minions with stats comparable to a non-optimized fighter (and often times magical abilities/defenses of their own). And wizards can do any of these options, potentially different ones each day to suit their needs.
I would not waste memorized spells on cures.
I would take a trait that granted UMD as a class skill and use wands/scrolls.
Alternately, I would summon monsters capable of healing.
dunebugg wrote:
Infernal Healing only reads as [evil] because it uses devil blood. Have your wizard research a version that uses Celestial blood instead, instant good-aligned healing spell.
At the very least, if you give wizard cure spell access, don't them let choose whether to cast cure or inflict at time of casting (two spells in one), and give it to them at the same rate as Druid + Witch (Cure Light is a 1st level spell, then Cure Mod is 3rd level, Serious is 4th, and Critical is 5th).
Domains always give level-later access to spells they don't otherwise have access to (Disintegrate as a 7th level spell, Fireball as 4th, etc).
You could have a wizard research it for celestial, or even troll blood. Those are other options.
You are missing the huge limitation of the way I've presented the Wounds spells. They can only cure a tiny amount of HP compared to a cleric or even a druid, but they are decent at doing damage.
Basically, they are an offensive spell that has the option of healing a 'few' HP instead of damaging a lot more.
Fire Domain gives Fireball at 3rd level.
Parka wrote: Most people are trying to say that DPS doesn't matter if you are bypassing the hit point track. Incapacitating foes and taking a Coup de Grace is more effective- or just killing them outright.
Edit: Or charming them to your cause, or making them flee, or drowning them in large numbers of summoned/called/charmed minions with stats comparable to a non-optimized fighter (and often times magical abilities/defenses of their own). And wizards can do any of these options, potentially different ones each day to suit their needs.
Between saving throws, immunities and spell resistance, a caster's spells are far from guaranteed to work.
Which is a good thing. When they do work, it's ferociously effective. And unlike a lot of martial classes, when one tactic isn't working, there are others which are readily available.
I love martial classes to bits, but I have to admit to experiencing some of this... Casters can play the HP game with damaging spells and summoned creatures, but they also have the option to say "screw it" and throw Save-or-Suck/Die until something sticks. Few non-magic classes can change tracks like that- or wake up one day completely decked out for different tactics.
I'm gonna stop now, as this just beats a long-dead horse.
Try the feat out, see if it's a good fit. Playtest data will go a long way.
Shain Edge wrote: Lemmy wrote: Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard. This actually made me laugh... Then I was sad... Well, I _used_ to think a wizard was the king of DPS, then I read a few threads that compared them to Fighters. Once you pull in magic resistance, saving throws and the like, Fighters, not Wizards are DPS marshal's. Actually, I'm pretty sure Fighters aren't winning the DPS game either. They may be in the top 3 if you only care about indefinitely sustainable damage output, but I think that's probably as good a thing as can be said about the fighter.
Fighter/Barbarian/Synthesist for top sustained damage.
Wizard for long term flexibility or if you know exactly what to expect.
Magus for burst damage.
Artanthos wrote: Fighter/Barbarian/Synthesist for top sustained damage.
Wizard for long term flexibility or if you know exactly what to expect.
Magus for burst damage.
FTW.
Shain Edge wrote: Lemmy wrote: Shain Edge wrote: The wizard isn't of the the 'most powerful' classes. Just look at any thread pointing out Fighter DPS vs Wizard. This actually made me laugh... Then I was sad... Well, I _used_ to think a wizard was the king of DPS, then I read a few threads that compared them to Fighters. Once you pull in magic resistance, saving throws and the like, Fighters, not Wizards are DPS marshal's. I don't think you get my point...
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