It's such a popular feat! If you read the optimization guides they're all telling you to get this feat! Rogues, go first! Wizards, go first! Barbarian am charge! In the end, and i've noticed this in my games, all characters pick up improved initative and I wonder, what's the benefit then?
Which classes work just as well with a low initative?
If your trying to be reactive, its not as good. Being proactive is preferred though, because many reactive(healing for instance) options aren't as good as just removing the threat in the first place.
That said, going quickly is always nice. You don't remain flat footed and you can always ready or hold if you aren't quiet ready to act yet or your setting yourself up.
Slow moving melee classes -- easier if the enemy comes to you; they get one attack and you get a full attack.
Initiative bonuses are never bad -- even if you want to go second, you can always delay if you do win initiative. But you don't need to be faster than every built; you only need to be faster than your current opponent. And you're still going to lose some rolls.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's such a popular feat! If you read the optimization guides they're all telling you to get this feat! Rogues, go first! Wizards, go first! Barbarian am charge! In the end, and i've noticed this in my games, all characters pick up improved initative and I wonder, what's the benefit then?
Which classes work just as well with a low initative?
As was said, all classes benefit from being able to be active. Improved Initiative is therefore always a good feat.
The question then becomes what else is a GREAT feat that you'd rather have.
I'd suggest that rogues, for example, gain a disproportionate benefit from going first, since that's an easy way to get sneak attack damage. Wizards and sorcerers, specifically the blasters and battlefield controllers, get a chance to mess the bad guys up while they're both grouped together and separated from the good guys.
I'd suggest, thought, that a (summoning) druid or a (buffing) cleric gets less advantage. The druid, in particular, will take an entire round to summon, which means that the bad guys will get a chance to move no matter what. I'd therefore put Augment Summons ahead of Improved Initiative for that druid.
I don't think that generic martial types gain any specific benefit from a high initiative, but fighters have so many feats they can collect the whole set. But i'd be more likely to go with better for a barbarian, and better archery feats for my (archer) ranger, who will be firing from behind the fighter and barbarian anyway.
I guess that's the appeal to players. Fighter's don't need to be faster than the wizard, since he's about to cast haste, they just want to be faster than the monster (read GM).
Initative is a mechanic that very much defines combat however I just get perplexed that this feat become ubiquitous on every character sheet. Just wondering if there were any exceptions to this but I very much doubt there is.
Paladins shouldn't take it at all.
I mean come on if they go first in initative then the enemy is flat-footed which means they can't react to attacks. Well that's clearly dishonorable so you would have to get atonement at the least right? Right?
If you're a melee character that doesn't rely on Dex to AC, it's not particularly important. It allows your mages to blast the enemies without worrying about you already being engaged, and it allows you to full attack as the enemy comes to you, rather than doing a single charge attack.
I always want a better initiative bonus, but very few of my characters take the feat. Mostly just those with sneak attack. I had a wizard who had a fantastic initiative bonus - the best of any character I've ever had, with whom I almost always delayed. Sigh...
I admit it is powerful, but my gnome colorsprayer. He is usually in back invisible with 20 movement. I need the enemies to come up to me so I do not mind being at the bottom of the order so they can get up to me.
|
If you're a melee character that doesn't rely on Dex to AC, it's not particularly important. It allows your mages to blast the enemies without worrying about you already being engaged, and it allows you to full attack as the enemy comes to you, rather than doing a single charge attack.
Melee that dont rely on dex like paladins and intimidate builds solve this problem with the feat Noble Scion: Scion of War to use there cha instead of dex for initiative. Works great with sorcerers as well.
Well, Improved Init is effectively +8 to Dex for initiative purposes, so unless you have Cha as a secondary score it's going to be better.
I meant that non-dex meleers don't have to go first because being flat-footed isn't so bad, they'll get to full attack instead of charging, and they won't be in the way of their blaster's blasty spells (that usually mean reflex saves).
Inquisitors are amazing with Improved Initiative and Reactionary. Double digit modifier, whoo!
I'll be different and just say it. Clerics. I don't think I've ever seen a cleric with I.I. (Unless he was a wanna be fighter).
Inquisitors are amazing with Improved Initiative and Reactionary. Double digit modifier, whoo!
My dad could beat your dad moment. My Wizard and his green sting scorpion easily hit 12 initiative at one. Foresight school or Kensai magus both have some nice bonuses to it too.
I rarely do it on my characters. I like being proactive and beginning battlefield control and buffs from the start, unless its a special circumstance.
|
I don't like taking improved initiative unless I take it with everything else that ups initative, like reactionary and any class abilities that will increase it.
Call it min-maxing if you like, but a bad roll on initiative - and you only get one per encounter - means for that encounter, the feat can easily be wasted.
Paladins shouldn't take it at all.
I mean come on if they go first in initative then the enemy is flat-footed which means they can't react to attacks. Well that's clearly dishonorable so you would have to get atonement at the least right? Right?
Shut up before they hear you and get ideas!
|
Rogues and ninjas want high init so they can catch enemies flat footed. Anyone casting AOE spells wants it, so they can catch all the bad guys together or all the good guys together, before they start intermingling. This includes my cleric, who has it.
Nobody else should bother with it. Not even barbarians with pounce. Just tell your allies to always leave you a charging lane. If the bad guys going first eliminates your charging lane, then you probably didn't have much of a lane, anyway.
|
Wizards and sorcerers really only want it if their go-to round one spell is something like Fireball or Black Tentacles, and you want to be able to drop it before your fighter ally runs into the fray. If you open with a buff spell or a single-target SoS, however, you don't need it. If the fighter knows you're going to cast haste, he'll delay if he wants haste that bad.
A bomb-focused Alchemist might want it for similar reasons, so he has a clear shot without worrying about friendly splash damage, but he doesn't have the feats to spend on it if he's bomb-focused because he needs Point-Blank Shot and the like.
Of course, anyone taking archery feats should have enough Dex that they don't need it.
Divine casters pretty much never need it. Even if they're battle clerics, or melee inquisitors. Heck, inquisitors never need it because they get Cunning Initiative.
The idea is to have an many party members as possible go before the guys. That is never a bad thing. That way the party can delay and still end the fight, or at least have things in their favor. Many times the fight is effectively over.
Sohei 1/ Cleric X. Give him a reach weapon and let me go last every time. I can wait for you to crash against the AoOs from my guisarme and decide who I need to buff/ debuff/ or heal from there.
ifrit wizard with a greensting scorpion familiar, reactionary trait, and improved initiative feat.
+14 initiative before applying Dex Bonus nor School Powers.
|
|
ifrit wizard with a greensting scorpion familiar, reactionary trait, and improved initiative feat.
+14 initiative before applying Dex Bonus nor School Powers.
I prefer sorcerer arcane bloodline so u can pick up Noble Scion: Scion of war a level of oracle with the Side Step revelation and 2 levels of paladin to add cha to saves so every thing pretty much runs off 1 stat.
|
Paladins shouldn't take it at all.
I mean come on if they go first in initative then the enemy is flat-footed which means they can't react to attacks. Well that's clearly dishonorable so you would have to get atonement at the least right? Right?
I played through that one. Really it all depends on whether the people on the other side are known to be your enemies.
If they are, it is good tactical sense to use your better reflexes to the utmost benefits. Striking first will help you finish the fight faster and your allies and any innocent bystanders are less likely to get killed. A good thing for any Paladin.
If they are not, then striking first might mean killing innocent creatures. Something I think most Paladins will avoid.
The point about Improved Initiative is in fact whether another feat is better for the class.
For most STR melee characters, Power Attack is better. For DEX melee characters, Weapon Finesse is better too. For archers, Point Blank Shot is better because it is the prerequisite to all those nice archery feats that you absolutely need. For Channel builds, Improved Channel or Extra Channel are likely better.
In my opinion it's nice but not worth a feat. Not a single one of my pathfinder PCs has it.
|
|
I'm playing an Oracle of time who doesn't really need it. I took the revelation which lets me roll twice, I have a Dex of 16, and a hare familiar so my bonus is already a +7 and I roll twice (for now) and pick the highest roll. I've never gone last and usually go first (I think there's been five times I haven't gone first). Heck I usually beat the rogue who has a 20 dex, improved initiative, and reactionary. :D
My group rarely takes it because it is a boring constant bonus that may or may not have any noticable effect.
Empower spell - boom baby!
Many shot - pin cushion!!
Exhausting Critical - Etc...