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kinda not thinking the wagon is gonna work, either. Likewise, the rolling motion of a ship makes it really hard to work on that kind of stuff unless you are really acclimated to it.===Aelryinth
Uhm,
You do realize that people (gypsies) lived for centuries out of wagons, do did circuses, traders, and others right? And you do realize that these travelers using wagons didn't actually try to do the work while the wagons were in motion right? They sort of, uhm, you know, parked the wagon at the end of the day? You know, after the 8 hours of travel (as the OP asked)?So uhm, why would you think a parked wagon would not be stable and would not be set up as a place to craft? You know, considering that people have done it for centuries like that? All you need is an enclosed wagon laid out however you need it. Just secure the work space inside.
Just to put some proof out...
The gypsies traveling wagon is a recent invention in our world.
Wagons were first used as a form of living accommodation (as opposed to carrying people or goods) in France in 1810 by non-Romani circus troupes.
As Varisian in Golarion have been using them for centuries there is no problem there to find a appropriate wagon with the space and comfort to work on most magic items. the only one that would have some problem are those that require a substantial heat source. You don't want a big fire in a wooden wagon.
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When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extra-dimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extra-dimensional spaces. Creatures in the extra-dimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). The rope cannot be removed or hidden. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.
Spells cannot be cast across the extra-dimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extra-dimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can't see through it. Anything inside the extra-dimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extra-dimensional space.
Nothing in the description of Rope Trick (or in the description of extradimensional spaces) implies that the spaces are somehow unstable, distracting, or otherwise opposed to concentration and crafting. Assuming that you are in a position that you can camouflage the rope, the spell describes a secure, discrete extradimensional location large enough for 8 creatures of any size, indicating that there would be plenty of room for any sort of crafting lab.
Interpreting the spell in a way that denies it as a viable crafting space is, in fact, a table rule; it is not even RAI.
A space that is capable to hold up to eight creatures (of any size) but has not a definite volume. Most GM that I know rule that it expand and contract to accommodate the creatures within.
You are 1 character with 7 hamsters? there is exactly the space for 1 character and 7 hamsters plus a bit of elbow room.Very different from a secure shelter where you have specific, definite volume to place all your tools.
The rules say nothing about producing smoke into a rope trick (and medieval heat sources produce smoke). It has a 3*5 window centered on the rope, probably in the middle of the floor of the rope trick, more than sufficient for the rope trick aeration, not so good if your are producing smoke.
Rope trick description is vague and open to GM interpretation. Personally I don't consider it a appropriate working space.
The gypsies traveling wagon is a recent invention in our world.
Wagons were first used as a form of living accommodation (as opposed to carrying people or goods) in France in 1810 by non-Romani circus troupes.As Varisian in Golarion have been using them for centuries there is no problem there to find a appropriate wagon with the space and comfort to work on most magic items. the only one that would have some problem are those that require a substantial heat source. You don't want a big fire in a wooden wagon.
I'd say 200 years ago may be fairly recent in the sum of human history, but it is still has been in use for centuries. Century = 100 years, 200 = 2 centuries.
@Alyrinth
You really should read my posts, your responses prove you don't. Notice I prefaced it with having a ring of sustenance, so no, you don't need to eat, you need 2 hours of sleep.
So, 24 hours, -2 hours, leaves 22 hours. Are you saying you can't possibly travel for 8 hours, set up a camp, craft for 8 hours, and then take down a full camp in 22 hours? You'd have 6 hours for setting up and taking down the camp. I think 3 hours is more than sufficient.
I can see smoke\ventilation as a valid argument. "Undulating extradimensional walls"? Not so much.
Some crafts do not require a lot of space or generate toxic gasses\smoke. A bowyer could make arrows easily enough; my dad used to own an archery shop, and the 'workshop space' we used was probably only about 3' x 5'. Same thing with someone enchanting magical items such as rings and whatnot.
You are correct that the description is vague, and I can see sensible complaints against, say, deploying a smoking furnace in the space. I guess I just wasn't thinking in that direction in regards to crafts.
First of all the hamsters were partly a joke and partly becuase iirc someone in the thread that drove me to make that list was saying that if anyone comes and interacts in any way with you can't count those 8 hours.
Again those are your ideas about how the extra dimensional space granted by rope trick works and are just that, ideas, they aren't any more valid than my ideas that says that it works since the spell's description is so vague.
The same applies to the smoke issue, the air in that extradimensional space might be refreshed without using the air from the "window".
A Rope Trick would be an ideal workspace for any items that don't require a forge. A small fire for small things like melting gold in a crucible over a Bunsen burner could probably be magically or alchemically produced so as to be smoke free and very portable. No having to heft a full sized forge up into a Rope Trick. And secure shelter or other magical alternatives would be an ideal place for any crafting.
The default rule seems to be an example of a caster setting up and tearing down his workspace repeatedly whenever he had an hour to spare. Explaining both why he only has 4 hours (he is just squeezing the time in between other things in various increments) or why 1/2 the effective use of the time (having to constantly tear down and set up his workspace means far less time to work).
Once I did a traveling crafter... I was a divine caster from a race that needed no sleep and was immune to fatigue. So I frequently had vast amounts of time to craft with... on some days I had more than 16 hours to craft. But the GM limited me to a maximum of 8 hours. Still workspace, environment, and time were not an issue. I used a Rope Trick at the time, but then I wasn't trying to forge weapons or armor. I was mostly making rods, staves, and wands... with the occasional wondrous item.
I recall JJ saying awhile back that the barrier on rope trick was air/water tight and the air renewed. It was in a discussion about a rope trick underwater. Ill link it if my search Fu I sufficient to find it Again.
@Majuba
Why do you think that my plan wouldn't work?
It gives you a controlled environment where distractions are at a minimum (as the rules ask). Where do you find the problem?
I find the problem in the assumption that the reduction in effectiveness of the crafting (4 hours of work for 2 hours of crafting) is based (solely) on distractions. I also feel there would be a limitation based on mental fatigue after a long (very long with a Ring of Sustenance) day of adventuring. In my opinion.
I find the problem in the assumption that the reduction in effectiveness of the crafting (4 hours of work for 2 hours of crafting) is based (solely) on distractions. I also feel there would be a limitation based on mental fatigue after a long (very long with a Ring of Sustenance) day of adventuring. In my opinion.@Majuba
Why do you think that my plan wouldn't work?
It gives you a controlled environment where distractions are at a minimum (as the rules ask). Where do you find the problem?
core rulebook p.549, magic item creation second to last paragraph talks about dedicating time to creation, there you can see that the issue is distractions.
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As Varisian in Golarion have been using them for centuries there is no problem there to find a appropriate wagon with the space and comfort to work on most magic items. the only one that would have some problem are those that require a substantial heat source. You don't want a big fire in a wooden wagon.
Actually, classic gypsy vardos usually had a wood burning stove with an external exhaust pipe which goes through the roof. I think it is safe to assume that Varisian wagons would have something similar.
As for Rope Trick, the rules for crafting magic items say, "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items."
What sort of place is suitable for preparing spells though? The rules for that say, "To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard's surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying."
Whether you should you be able to craft without the half speed penalty for distractions in a Rope Trick, a vardo, or Secure Shelter is for the DM to decide, but if not then maybe you shouldn't be able to prepare spells there either according to the stuff I quoted above. Maybe Wizards aren't such a powerful class after all. It turns out that the world is full of distractions, from undulating extra-dimensional spaces to Bards who put on rings of sustenance and play all night long so the Wizard will be powerless. Play that funky music half-elf!
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Actually, classic gypsy vardos usually had a wood burning stove with an external exhaust pipe which goes through the roof. I think it is safe to assume that Varisian wagons would have something similar.
Exactly my point, a stove is a enclosed structure (and a fairly modern one, BTW, at least when speaking of metal stoves [XVIII century], while brick stoves are as old as XV century) not a heat source where you work a metallic item on the fire.
A stove can work to prepare potions, boil water and similar thing, but it don't reach the temperature needed to work metals.A Bunsen burner can be used for low melting point items, but when working armors or weapons the heat source should be stronger, I think. We will see if the Ultimate Campaign give more details, but I doubt it.
As for Rope Trick, the rules for crafting magic items say, "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items."What sort of place is suitable for preparing spells though? The rules for that say, "To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard's surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying."
Whether you should you be able to craft without the half speed penalty for distractions in a Rope Trick, a vardo, or Secure Shelter is for the DM to decide, but if not then maybe you shouldn't be able to prepare spells there either according to the stuff I quoted above. Maybe Wizards aren't such a powerful class after all. It turns out that the world is full of distractions, from undulating extra-dimensional spaces to Bards who put on rings of sustenance and play all night long so the Wizard will be powerless. Play that funky music half-elf!
The magic item crafting rules give further rules beside the one you cite, read post 6 for a list of the different requirements depending on the kind of item.
Neglecting some of those requirements would count a a distraction for me.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A portable hole set up as a fully functional crafting workshop is my favorite way of crafting while adventuring. Admittedly, portable holes aren't cheap.
If your GM is one of those obnoxious folks who try to make crafting impossible unless it's between adventures or something, my advice is to take the Leadership feat and get a Ring Gate.
Then you just have your followers back at some secure location in some well regulated city with competent guards and hired security. They craft for you in shifts, round the clock, cranking out whatever you want.
You pour money through the ring gate and your followers deliver goods. Big objects can be passed through via Shrink Object.
The magic item crafting rules give further rules beside the one you cite, read post 6 for a list of the different requirements depending on the kind of item.
Neglecting some of those requirements would count a a distraction for me.
Except the CRB already has rules for adding 5 to the DC if a requirement is missing when crafting magical items. Your definition of distraction is completely prohibiting any work at all. That's a big jump from harder DC to impossible.
Devilkiller's point was a good one. You can craft wherever you can prepare spells. When a DM is ready to tell a wizard "nope, you can't prepare your spells today because you're too distracted" then he has legitimate grounds to also deny crafting attempts in that location. Otherwise, RAW supports the crafting attempt.
I've seen wizards hole up in any old room of a dungeon, let the fighter watch the door, while the wizard prepares his spells. Maybe a wandering monster screws that up, maybe not. If not, the DM pretty much always lets the wizard prepare spells. By RAW, he could also craft there (but of course, crafting takes longer than one hour so there's more chance of a wandering monster screwing it up - that's the DM's choice, of course.
But saying "No, you're too distracted here" when he's not too distracted to prepare spells would appear to be against the RAW.
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The magic item crafting rules give further rules beside the one you cite, read post 6 for a list of the different requirements depending on the kind of item.
Neglecting some of those requirements would count a a distraction for me.
Except the CRB already has rules for adding 5 to the DC if a requirement is missing when crafting magical items. Your definition of distraction is completely prohibiting any work at all. That's a big jump from harder DC to impossible.
Devilkiller's point was a good one. You can craft wherever you can prepare spells. When a DM is ready to tell a wizard "nope, you can't prepare your spells today because you're too distracted" then he has legitimate grounds to also deny crafting attempts in that location. Otherwise, RAW supports the crafting attempt.
I've seen wizards hole up in any old room of a dungeon, let the fighter watch the door, while the wizard prepares his spells. Maybe a wandering monster screws that up, maybe not. If not, the DM pretty much always lets the wizard prepare spells. By RAW, he could also craft there (but of course, crafting takes longer than one hour so there's more chance of a wandering monster screwing it up - that's the DM's choice, of course.
But saying "No, you're too distracted here" when he's not too distracted to prepare spells would appear to be against the RAW.
Blake, before putting again word in my mouth, please re-read my posts in this thread.
Distracting is distracting, not impossible. You lack an appropriate heat source when needed but you have something that partially replace it? You get half work.
You use makeshift instruments instead of appropriate gear? Same thing.
I'm aware of the other requirements, which mostly come down to tools and materials plus a heat source for a few types of items. The rules are pretty vague about what sort of "heat source" is needed for rings, armor, and weapons. At worst I suppose you could work on potions, wands, rods, and wondrous items instead. As you said, maybe Ultimate Campaign will offer some clarifications.
On the other hand, I know that many gypsies worked as tinkers mending knives, pots, kettles, etc. It seems like fixing those sorts of items would require some ability to work metal, but I'll have to admit that I'm not sure of the details.
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Instead of craft wondrous item, use Arcane Builder Wondrous Item to shave off 25% of the crafting time, then spend the extra 5dc to craft 1000gp worth of progress in 4 hours instead of 8.
25% off of 4 hours means 1000gp of progress ('8 hours worth') of crafting in 3 hours time.
So sustenance ring, cast secure shelter, sleep for 2 hours, craft for 3, memorize new spells for the day for 1 hour (or 15 minutes if you take fast study...)
Dont forget to sign up for hedge apprentice at character creation so you get a discount on crafting material cost.
Cypher script to make copying spells cheaper and faster and take up less spellbook room...
And with the advanced race guide and a human caster you can go with inexplicable luck to bump that craft check by +8, not that you'll probably need it since most of what you craft you can succeed just by taking 10 if you max out spellcraft like you do... Crafters fortune spell... You know the drill.
Don't forget your valet familiar...
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I'm aware of the other requirements, which mostly come down to tools and materials plus a heat source for a few types of items. The rules are pretty vague about what sort of "heat source" is needed for rings, armor, and weapons. At worst I suppose you could work on potions, wands, rods, and wondrous items instead. As you said, maybe Ultimate Campaign will offer some clarifications.
On the other hand, I know that many gypsies worked as tinkers mending knives, pots, kettles, etc. It seems like fixing those sorts of items would require some ability to work metal, but I'll have to admit that I'm not sure of the details.
They worked as copper and tin smiths mostly, plus shoeing horses and some other stuff. All that and more can be done when making camp outside the wagon.
A decent sized fire, an anvil and a lot of sweat and you can work even metal armors while travelling. My point is that it can't be done inside a wooden wagon when you need to work on stuff like that (unless the wagon is specially made to be a travelling blacksmith shop, something that, AFAIK, wasn't ever made. From what I know for the forging process travelling smiths used a fire outside the wagon, while using the wagon for storage and living accommodations).
@Aelryinth
If you don't want your players to craft, or at least craft while adventuring, just tell them so and don't try to find (very bad) excuses to not let them. It works better this way for everyone.
Haha I agree. Its better to say it before even trying to do so, because if the Gamemaster dont want you to craft items during adventures, he can be VERY EVIL and attack your camp /settlement every time you start crafting LOL, making you waste time and not be able to complete the 8 hrs never ^^;
Haha I agree. Its better to say it before even trying to do so, because if the Gamemaster dont want you to craft items during adventures, he can be VERY EVIL and attack your camp /settlement every time you start crafting LOL, making you waste time and not be able to complete the 8 hrs never ^^;@Aelryinth
If you don't want your players to craft, or at least craft while adventuring, just tell them so and don't try to find (very bad) excuses to not let them. It works better this way for everyone.
I third this.
A decent sized fire, an anvil and a lot of sweat and you can work even metal armors while travelling. My point is that it can't be done inside a wooden wagon when you need to work on stuff like that (unless the wagon is specially made to be a travelling blacksmith shop, something that, AFAIK, wasn't ever made. From what I know for the forging process travelling smiths used a fire outside the wagon, while using the wagon for storage and living accommodations).
If you had followed the link I put up earlier Diego, you would have seen a purpose built wagon used as a portable black smith shop, complete with forge, used by the Los Angelese Fire Department around circa 1900. They used it for shoeing horses, making wagon repairs, etc. I'll include another link, maybe you'll follow this one.
The gypsies traveling wagon is a recent invention in our world.
Wagons were first used as a form of living accommodation (as opposed to carrying people or goods) in France in 1810 by non-Romani circus troupes.As Varisian in Golarion have been using them for centuries there is no problem there to find a appropriate wagon with the space and comfort to work on most magic items. the only one that would have some problem are those that require a substantial heat source. You don't want a big fire in a wooden wagon.
I'd say 200 years ago may be fairly recent in the sum of human history, but it is still has been in use for centuries. Century = 100 years, 200 = 2 centuries.
@Alyrinth
You really should read my posts, your responses prove you don't. Notice I prefaced it with having a ring of sustenance, so no, you don't need to eat, you need 2 hours of sleep.So, 24 hours, -2 hours, leaves 22 hours. Are you saying you can't possibly travel for 8 hours, set up a camp, craft for 8 hours, and then take down a full camp in 22 hours? You'd have 6 hours for setting up and taking down the camp. I think 3 hours is more than sufficient.
What you're saying is that you're going to get in 8 hours of travel...minus the stops to eat, rest the animals and go to the bathroom.
Then, at the end of the day, you're going to set up a full camp with circled wagons, bring out all the normal stuff, eat, socialize.And THEN you're going to break out all your crafting gear and get it set up.
and THEN you're going to work for eight solid hours after eight hours of butt-breaking travelling all day
and THEN you're going to sleep for two hours.
And THEN you're going to break down and stow all your crafting stuff, and THEN help break down the rest of the camp, and engage in another eight hours of travelling.
all the while being out in the wilderness with other dangerous encounters possible, especially at night when so many of the people are asleep, and your crafting might even be annoying the hell out of them and keeping them awake.
You're trying to exploit a rules loophole. I get it. And you're arguing time is all on your side. I get that too.
I just don't believe you can do what you claim.
==Aelryinth
The area of the Rope Trick spell does not say it creates a space suitable for a person to craft...i.e. it is not a big open area, like a Secure Shelter or a Mag Mansion. It creates an area that can fit 8 creatures of any size...which is highly variable.
It does not say it can create a space with room for a person and crafting gear. The spell specifically references being able to fit goods, but not huge amounts of equipment. By strict reading of the spell, it will fit anything a person can reasonably carry...but worktables, lots of tools, anvils, furnaces, and the like, are probably not suitable.
if you're talking about carving a stick of wood, that's likely not a problem.
It's a grey area. The spell does NOT say it creates an area suitable for setting up an unlimited crafting zone. You can stay in there, sleep in there. It doesn't say you can set up a crafting shop in there, and it doesn't say it creates the room for you to do that. Creating space for creatures is different then creating space for items.
I posit that if you use the reading you are trying to, the 'eight creatures' i want to fit into my rope trick are the size of blue whales. I then want to put every single bloody thing in my wagon caravan up into the rope trick for security purposes, and then bring them back in the morning.
There, now. I have a full crafting garage I'm toting around with me.
See how silly that is? A Rope Trick fits people. It doesn't fit a crafting shop.
==Aelryinth
The gypsies traveling wagon is a recent invention in our world.
Wagons were first used as a form of living accommodation (as opposed to carrying people or goods) in France in 1810 by non-Romani circus troupes.As Varisian in Golarion have been using them for centuries there is no problem there to find a appropriate wagon with the space and comfort to work on most magic items. the only one that would have some problem are those that require a substantial heat source. You don't want a big fire in a wooden wagon.
I'd say 200 years ago may be fairly recent in the sum of human history, but it is still has been in use for centuries. Century = 100 years, 200 = 2 centuries.
@Alyrinth
You really should read my posts, your responses prove you don't. Notice I prefaced it with having a ring of sustenance, so no, you don't need to eat, you need 2 hours of sleep.So, 24 hours, -2 hours, leaves 22 hours. Are you saying you can't possibly travel for 8 hours, set up a camp, craft for 8 hours, and then take down a full camp in 22 hours? You'd have 6 hours for setting up and taking down the camp. I think 3 hours is more than sufficient.
What you're saying is that you're going to get in 8 hours of travel...minus the stops to eat, rest the animals and go to the bathroom.
Then, at the end of the day, you're going to set up a full camp with circled wagons, bring out all the normal stuff, eat, socialize.And THEN you're going to break out all your crafting gear and get it set up.
and THEN you're going to work for eight solid hours after eight hours of butt-breaking travelling all day
and THEN you're going to sleep for two hours.
And THEN you're going to break down and stow all your crafting stuff, and THEN help break down the rest of the camp, and engage in another eight hours of travelling.
all the while being out in the wilderness with other dangerous encounters possible, especially at night when so many of the...
The unspoken assumption is that you're not spendin significant time helping with camp or socializing. Which you can do. Plus the ring "constantly refreshes" the wearer, so that covers fatigue issues.
Personally my wizard helps with camp by casting unseen servant and tiny hut. A daunting task that takes all of 12 seconds. Or slightly longer as you have to direct the unseen servant to stay in range and follow the (insert other character)'s directions.
You have a habit of ignoring the details that don't fit with the way you want things to work. You're doing that now.
If you don't want your players to use this rules exploit just tell them up front. Don't feed them a line of BS and tell them it's truth. It demeans us all.
And yes, I completely agree that you should inform your Players that you aren't going to let them abuse the rules this way. There are half-pace rules for Crafting there for a reason, and they should follow those instead of trying to exploit grey areas. If they do, the DM is perfectly within rights to interpret other loopholes in the opposite direction, and the DM wins.
==Aelryinth
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And yes, I completely agree that you should inform your Players that you aren't going to let them abuse the rules this way. There are half-pace rules for Crafting there for a reason, and they should follow those instead of trying to exploit grey areas. If they do, the DM is perfectly within rights to interpret other loopholes in the opposite direction, and the DM wins.
==Aelryinth
"DM wins"
That's true. He does. Though with such an attitude he stands a high chance of doing so all by himself.
I posit that if you use the reading you are trying to, the 'eight creatures' i want to fit into my rope trick are the size of blue whales. I then want to put every single bloody thing in my wagon caravan up into the rope trick for security purposes, and then bring them back in the morning.
There, now. I have a full crafting garage I'm toting around with me.
See how silly that is? A Rope Trick fits people. It doesn't fit a crafting shop.
==Aelryinth
Go for it. I don't think it's silly at all. I'd be interested to see you tote it up there.
You're talking about a game where there are bags that can technically carry a Sherman tank inside them, magical items that fold out into an entire mansion, tiny cubes of wood that fold out into entire desks with paper and quills included.
I view the crafting rules as broken and illogical as it is; basing the amount of time it takes to build something on the retail cost of the item is unrealistic and leads to some pretty ridiculous problems.
In the end, the spell is vague; feel free to run it how you see fit at your table, but know that other people think the way you run it is just as "silly" as you believe allowing someone to craft in it is.
[edit]
Back to the original post: I thought of a major flaw with the idea. It assumes that you're carrying your crafting gear in a bag of holding. The problem? Magical items that lead to extradimensional spaces cease to function when they themselves are in an extradimensional space. You can't take anything out of a bag of holding while you're inside the Rope Trick. See here.
[edit]
Back to the original post: I thought of a major flaw with the idea. It assumes that you're carrying your crafting gear in a bag of holding. The problem? Magical items that lead to extradimensional spaces cease to function when they themselves are in an extradimensional space. You can't take anything out of a bag of holding while you're inside the Rope Trick. See here.
True, but if I'm making a magic cloak I probably don't need an anvil. Just some expensive fabric, needles and thread, and perhaps some magic inks or something.
Specific crafting gear is vague and open to interpretation. I may be able to carry it all without a bag of holding. Or just take it out before climbing. Or tie a rope to a bag and haul it up after you. Or have the muscular fighter wearing a muleback chord and that belt that also increases carrying capacity. Point being its a magic world and there are ways. Which was your point earlier i think.
[edit]
Back to the original post: I thought of a major flaw with the idea. It assumes that you're carrying your crafting gear in a bag of holding. The problem? Magical items that lead to extradimensional spaces cease to function when they themselves are in an extradimensional space. You can't take anything out of a bag of holding while you're inside the Rope Trick. See here.True, but if I'm making a magic cloak I probably don't need an anvil. Just some expensive fabric, needles and thread, and perhaps some magic inks or something.
Specific crafting gear is vague and open to interpretation. I may be able to carry it all without a bag of holding. Or just take it out before climbing. Or tie a rope to a bag and haul it up after you. Or have the muscular fighter wearing a muleback chord and that belt that also increases carrying capacity. Point being its a magic world and there are ways. Which was your point earlier i think.
Correct.
And as I hinted at earlier in the thread, the existence of the field scrivener's desk would indicate (to me) that it wouldn't be terribly difficult to create a a magical "Craftsman's Cloister" item that would, upon speaking a command word, fold out into a fully functional workshop enclosed by a Tiny Hut spell (perhaps with a Rope Trick at the top so that smoke can 'vent' without being seen).
I'm actually working on writing that item up, in fact. ;)
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7)Be sure to take a cage with 7 hamsters with you.... what?The answer to your question lies in the description of the rope trick spell, which allows only 8 living beings inside the extradimensional space created.
You have them in order to not be distrubed.
I am sorry.
Bacteria are living beings, there is no room left for the wizard and never will be.
What you're saying is that you're going to get in 8 hours of travel...minus the stops to eat, rest the animals and go to the bathroom.
Then, at the end of the day, you're going to set up a full camp with circled wagons, bring out all the normal stuff, eat, socialize.And THEN you're going to break out all your crafting gear and get it set up.
and THEN you're going to work for eight solid hours after eight hours of butt-breaking travelling all day
and THEN you're going to sleep for two hours.
And THEN you're going to break down and stow all your crafting stuff, and THEN help break down the rest of the camp, and engage in another eight hours of travelling.
all the while being out in the wilderness with other dangerous encounters possible, especially at night when so many of the people are asleep, and your crafting might even be annoying the hell out of them and keeping them awake.You're trying to exploit a rules loophole. I get it. And you're arguing time is all on your side. I get that too.
I just don't believe you can do what you claim.
==Aelryinth
What normally goes on in a "full" travel day with crafting?
You travel for 8 hours total. You sleep for 8 hours total. The other 8 hours are spent doing things like making camp, cooking food, bathroom, socializing, etc.
"The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)."
Ok, so "out adventuring" you can devote 4 hours each day, and net 2 hours of work, by devoting time during lunch, morning, and night watches. With a ring of sustenance, you can also devote an extra 4 hours of progress that you would have otherwise spent sleeping, netting you another 2 hours of progress, for a total of 4 hours of progress in the adventuring day. If you do that 4 hours in a "controlled environment" then it would count fully, and net you a total of 6 hours a day.
Getting the full 8 is when you get into arguments about how much time is spent and when. You could argue that your group spends 10 hours in camp total, to allow the wizard to sleep for 2, and craft uninterrupted for 8 (in his controlled environment). Travel for 8 and that still leaves 6 hours leftover to handle food/bathroom/make or break camp/etc.
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A decent sized fire, an anvil and a lot of sweat and you can work even metal armors while travelling. My point is that it can't be done inside a wooden wagon when you need to work on stuff like that (unless the wagon is specially made to be a travelling blacksmith shop, something that, AFAIK, wasn't ever made. From what I know for the forging process travelling smiths used a fire outside the wagon, while using the wagon for storage and living accommodations).
If you had followed the link I put up earlier Diego, you would have seen a purpose built wagon used as a portable black smith shop, complete with forge, used by the Los Angelese Fire Department around circa 1900. They used it for shoeing horses, making wagon repairs, etc. I'll include another link, maybe you'll follow this one.
Nice. But I don't see the connection between that wagon and a gipsy wagon.
So it is possible to have a purposely built travelling working wagon, that is completely open and give very little protection, to work in the wilderness. But it is completely different from the enclosed, protected space that has been proposed in most posts.
A decent sized fire, an anvil and a lot of sweat and you can work even metal armors while travelling. My point is that it can't be done inside a wooden wagon when you need to work on stuff like that (unless the wagon is specially made to be a travelling blacksmith shop, something that, AFAIK, wasn't ever made. From what I know for the forging process travelling smiths used a fire outside the wagon, while using the wagon for storage and living accommodations).
If you had followed the link I put up earlier Diego, you would have seen a purpose built wagon used as a portable black smith shop, complete with forge, used by the Los Angelese Fire Department around circa 1900. They used it for shoeing horses, making wagon repairs, etc. I'll include another link, maybe you'll follow this one.
Nice. But I don't see the connection between that wagon and a gipsy wagon.
So it is possible to have a purposely built travelling working wagon, that is completely open and give very little protection, to work in the wilderness. But it is completely different from the enclosed, protected space that has been proposed in most posts.
It wouldn't take much to turn that wagon into an enclosed and protected space. Some armor plates on the outside, a chimney or smoke stack to help ventilation, and depending on the technology level available a hand-crank to alter the height of the roof so that it can collapse down when not in use. Not saying it's a typical wagon, but that's not what we're looking for to make this work. It's now enclosed, relatively safe, and stable when not actively in motion. It has all of the needed equipment, and is not going to kill you while you're inside.
And if you're worried about constant threats of attack, simply cast alarm and put someone on watch. That should help to relieve the threat of imminent attack.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What you're saying is that you're going to get in 8 hours of travel...minus the stops to eat, rest the animals and go to the bathroom.
Considering I've posited repeatedly, and you have ignored every time, that the crafter is wearing a , yes, I am positing that because the crafter does not need to eat, he is not going to make a stop to eat. There is no requirement to rest the animals until they have traveled 8 hours (per the rules), do feel free to spew out more home brew house rules about resting them 10 minutes every hour if you wish. I'll simply reply that 'overland travel' for 8 hours already includes all required rest stops, and that how far you travel already has that taken into account.
As to going to the bathroom, that's a good trick, show me how you go to the bathroom without eating or drinking. :) Oh, that's right, you're ignoring everything anyone posts that doesn't agree with your snyde posts. Forgot that...
Then, at the end of the day, you're going to set up a full camp with circled wagons, bring out all the normal stuff, eat, socialize.
Yeah, that's really hard. About an hour to set up a camp fully. No eating required (AGAIN, RING OF SUSTENANCE!). Socializing? Sure, I can do that... Got 6 hours total not banked...
And THEN you're going to break out all your crafting gear and get it set up.
No, I'm going to walk into the wagon, which has everything already set up. I'm going to tidy up a bit in case anything got messed up in travel (everything should be secured). I think 30 minutes at most. Up to 1.5 hours so far, without socializing.
and THEN you're going to work for eight solid hours after eight hours of butt-breaking travelling all day
I may, or I may take a 30 minute nap, which is like taking a 2 hour nap.
Up to 2 hours. Then I do my 8 hours of work.
and THEN you're going to sleep for two hours.
Yep, already accounted for the 2 hours...
And THEN you're going to break down and stow all your crafting stuff,
Yep, fully rested, not tired at all. Again RING OF FREAKING SUSTENANCE!
Another 30 minutes for securing the crafting things in the wagon. Up to 2.5 hours.
and THEN help break down the rest of the camp
Yep, another hour probably. That's 3.5 hours.
That leaves me a lot of time for socializing. Hmm, that's not even including the socializing of talking while riding all day.
So, 2-2.5 hours sleep
8 hours walking
8 hours working
2 hours breakdown/setup camp
1 hour securing/unsecuring crafting equipment
3.5 to 4 hours unallocated... More than sufficient to even sleep another 2 hours if I wanted... Another 8 hours of rest...
, and engage in another eight hours of travelling.
Back it up there son, that's a new day. Starting all over, not in the one day...
all the while being out in the wilderness with other dangerous encounters possible, especially at night when so many of the people are asleep, and your crafting might even be annoying the hell out of them and keeping them awake.
A) Not all crafting makes a ton of noise.
B) I'm in my wagon, not doing things next to the other sleepers.C) If I'm on watch, I'm not crafting. I have 3.5 to 4 hours of unaccounted time, I can do a 2-4 hour watch. Other people are on watch besides me, I assume? I'd sure rather be armored up working in my wagon rather than asleep and naked without the ring, and alert and ready to respond rather than pretending to be asleep.
You're trying to exploit a rules loophole. I get it. And you're arguing time is all on your side. I get that too.I just don't believe you can do what you claim.
It's not a rules loophole, it's a magical artifact performing as designed.
You are upset that people are using magic items as designed. I get that. You assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a munchkin, I get that too.
I just don't believe you actually bother reading and thinking before you respond.
Aelryinth wrote:
You're trying to exploit a rules loophole. I get it. And you're arguing time is all on your side. I get that too.
I just don't believe you can do what you claim.It's not a rules loophole, it's a magical artifact performing as designed.
You are upset that people are using magic items as designed. I get that. You assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a munchkin, I get that too.
I just don't believe you actually bother reading and thinking before you respond.
Also yes. It is trying to exploit a rules loophole. That's part of the thread title and repeated several times in the first post. That's why I started the thread. I never asked how anyone feels about it.
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Back to the original post: I thought of a major flaw with the idea. It assumes that you're carrying your crafting gear in a bag of holding. The problem? Magical items that lead to extradimensional spaces cease to function when they themselves are in an extradimensional space. You can't take anything out of a bag of holding while you're inside the Rope Trick. See here.True, but if I'm making a magic cloak I probably don't need an anvil. Just some expensive fabric, needles and thread, and perhaps some magic inks or something.
Specific crafting gear is vague and open to interpretation. I may be able to carry it all without a bag of holding. Or just take it out before climbing. Or tie a rope to a bag and haul it up after you. Or have the muscular fighter wearing a muleback chord and that belt that also increases carrying capacity. Point being its a magic world and there are ways. Which was your point earlier i think.
Correct.
And as I hinted at earlier in the thread, the existence of the field scrivener's desk would indicate (to me) that it wouldn't be terribly difficult to create a a magical "Craftsman's Cloister" item that would, upon speaking a command word, fold out into a fully functional workshop enclosed by a Tiny Hut spell (perhaps with a Rope Trick at the top so that smoke can 'vent' without being seen).
I'm actually working on writing that item up, in fact. ;)
Base it on Hide campsite, it already include hiding the smoke and the sounds:
Hide Campsite
School illusion (glamer); Level druid 3, ranger 2
CASTINGCasting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a sprig of mistletoe, and a vial of quicksilver)
EFFECTRange close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area one 20-ft. cube
Duration 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance noPaizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
DESCRIPTIONYou make the area around a campsite appear to be a thicket of untouched and forbidding foliage, or some other unwelcoming feature matching the surrounding terrain. Creatures outside the area cannot sense any activity going on inside the area- they cannot smell campfires or cooking food, they cannot hear conversation, loud noises, or spells being cast, and they cannot even feel heat or a rush of wind coming from the area. Those inside the area can see out normally. Once a creature steps into the area of the spell, it can see everything in and around the area normally.
Except, that the whole purpose of the item is to allow you to do more than you normally can.
Would you consider it a 'loophole' to store 100 quivers in your bag of holding? Would it be a 'loophole' to carry 1000 lbs in a bag of holding?
If not, then why is 'sleeping 2 hours to get full days rest and continue working another 8 hours' a loophole?
Ignore the fact it's on the road. Would it be a loophole to spend all day working as a farmer (profession Farmer check) and then sleep two hours, and then work 8 hours as a blacksmith in your personal smithy? If so, why? If not, why is it the same on the road?
Using a wagon you have a pre-setup location to craft in, so little or no setup. You are putting a nice bit of cash into this, and you're not going to be going overland or fast, you're stuck to roads or open fields.
Is this something every group could do? Probably not. Is it possible? Yes. Is it even hard, not really. We're talking about probably 3000 gp in total. Is it game breaking? Not even close, considering the WBL tables are already thrown out by the ruling on crafting feats allowing you to count your crafted items at crafting cost rather than market costs.
I just don't see how this is game breaking, or even loopholing. The ring is designed to give you back about 10 hours a day between sleeping and eating.
Also yes. It is trying to exploit a rules loophole. That's part of the thread title and repeated several times in the first post. That's why I started the thread. I never asked how anyone feels about it.Aelryinth wrote:
You're trying to exploit a rules loophole. I get it. And you're arguing time is all on your side. I get that too.
I just don't believe you can do what you claim.It's not a rules loophole, it's a magical artifact performing as designed.
You are upset that people are using magic items as designed. I get that. You assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a munchkin, I get that too.
I just don't believe you actually bother reading and thinking before you respond.
I think that exploiting the rules is part of the design paradigm of the 3E and the systems that are built on it.@
@Xaratherus
Yes i know that when items having extradimensional space are brought to another extradimensional space they cease to function, that's why i said to bring out your gear and have your party help you bring it to the space created by rope trick.
@leo1925: I think that defining what sort of Craft is being described is important here. A person working on a cloak or on a small magic item could easily unpack what they need and carry it up with them (or have an ally carry it for them).
Carrying a forge and anvil up a rope would be somewhat more difficult. Not impossible, and spell use could make it easier.
@Diego Rossi: Hide Campsite! Holy crap, I'd been looking for that silly thing since I started thinking about writing up this item. That would be a less expensive option than the ones I was looking into.
Looking for an opinion: Would you think it should include basic materials (like iron ingots, etc.) or just more mundane stuff (like coal, glass vials, etc.)?
@leo1925: I think that defining what sort of Craft is being described is important here. A person working on a cloak or on a small magic item could easily unpack what they need and carry it up with them (or have an ally carry it for them).
Carrying a forge and anvil up a rope would be somewhat more difficult. Not impossible, and spell use could make it easier.
@Diego Rossi: Hide Campsite! Holy crap, I'd been looking for that silly thing since I started thinking about writing up this item. That would be a less expensive option than the ones I was looking into.
Looking for an opinion: Would you think it should include basic materials (like iron ingots, etc.) or just more mundane stuff (like coal, glass vials, etc.)?
Just mundane. It's fluff anyway. The main cost will come when buying crafting materials.
It should include basic tools though.
It seems like Diego has supplied some good information on tinkering. I'll bow to his expertise on that and agree that Craft Magic Arms & Armor involving metalworking would probably be most practical outside of the wagon. Whether or not that is a problem could be the subject of further debate although crafting most items besides rings, armor, and weapons doesn't require a "heat source" anyhow and could presumably be crafted without much controversy - though honestly I'm sure there would be controversy anyhow...
What might be more important here is that DMs trying to stop PCs from crafting is probably what inspires many players to attempt strange ploys like "7 hamsters in a Rope Trick". The fact that some DMs/campaigns keep the PCs on an adventure treadmill 24/7/365 can make crafting very tough in those games. Meanwhile, PCs created above 1st level are assumed to be able to get the full benefit of their crafting feats, so the real powergaming/loophole move in a restrictive DMs game would be to have your PC commit suicide and be replaced by one with custom crafted half-price equipment. I don't think anybody wants that though.
We're getting pretty far afield from the OP's questions, so perhaps we should start a thread elsewhere on how to best House Rule crafting or how Paizo might clarify/adjust it in the future so that players don't feel ripped off by inability to use their feats and DMs don't feel like the players are trying to cheat using a "loophole".
We're getting pretty far afield from the OP's questions, so perhaps we should start a thread elsewhere on how to best House Rule crafting or how Paizo might clarify/adjust it in the future so that players don't feel ripped off by inability to use their feats and DMs don't feel like the players are trying to cheat using a "loophole".
Though I appreciate the effort the original question was answered a long time ago. ;-)
I'm pretty sure a lot of these nuances are going to be covered by the 'complete adventurer' or 'adventure unlimited' book or whatever its called thats coming out soon.
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Hah. This thread reminds me of a story someone told me about a mean GM manipulating the way immovable rod is written. As soon as he activated the immovable rod, he died as it ripped through his body, through the walls of a fortress and and far off into space where it remained at a fixed point in space as the planet moved away from it.
Of the two main points of the thread -
I wouldn't allow Rope Trick to be used as a crafting location.
I would allow Ring of Sustainance to give more crafting time.
Of the two main points of the thread -
I wouldn't allow Rope Trick to be used as a crafting location.
I would allow Ring of Sustainance to give more crafting time.
1) the main point was not a question of opinions. It was a question of if it follows the rules as written. Which it does.
2) The ring doesn't give more crafting time. It reduces need for sleeping and eating. That is all.
Edit: Frankly, I never thought the thread would last this long. The question was answered within the first ten posts.
Time isn't an issue for most crafting while adventuring:
1- Wake in the morning and prepare spells... 1hr
2- break down camp since most of us use magical shelters which can be setup or removed with a simple command word... a few rounds if we are lazy.
3- adventuring till the casters need rest... 15 minutes
4- setup camp... again a few rounds if we are lazy.
5- eating three prepared meals (magical prep or travel rations which can be unwrapped and eaten without cooking)... may as well be lazy here too and take 15min per meal.
6- rest time... 10hrs (no rings needed- extra time accounts for two hour watches ~5man team ~5lone PC sentries augmented with animal and magical sentries) [this can be reduced if the group needs less sleep]
Total = 12hrs + some number of rounds
leaving the better part of 12hrs to craft... since workshop setup doesn't require more than a few rounds it shouldn't be an issue crafting for 8 hrs of fully productive effort. [assuming you don't get attacked in camp, and even if you do you might still have enough time to get the full 8 hrs of productivity]
Now on the days where you actually HAVE to travel somewhere for 8hrs the hard way that lowers your free time to 4 hrs. Still enough time to take the craft while traveling bit for half effort.
Keep in mind my above post assumes a party full of crafters.
If you have just one crafter get them a magic ring or select a sleep free race. This can net you up to 11hrs 45min of extra time per day depending on the need for food, sleep, and skipping watch. Plenty of time for fully productive 8hrs of crafting even while traveling the hard way.
MDT,
A Ring of Sustenance does not change the fact that everyone else in the party has to take time off to eat...and so do the horses. You move at the pace of the party. So, eight hours of travel is likely going to take ten hours.
You still have to go to the bathroom, in other words. You still have to gather firewood. Maybe someone goes hunting for game.
A Ring of Sustenance does not get rid of fatigue or exhaustion checks. Check the item description. In other words, someone who is doing a forced march with a Ring has the exact same save and consequences as someone who is not wearing the Ring. Sure, you need two hours to recover from it. But you're basically saying you're going to do twenty-two hours of work every single day.
You are going to be extremely tired, and unless you start blowing lesser restorations every day, it's going to be chronic. You are, in effect, taking a triple forced march every single day.
Most crafting is best done in an open area with tools and working areas laid out. Anything else is inefficient and going to cut into your crafting times. Especially when you are dealing with 'wooden wagons' and stoking a heat source that can easily set the whole thing on fire.
You have no 'peace of mind'. You are in an insecure location that can be attacked from any direction at any minute. I've got a friend who was vacationing in a cabin. How much sleep do you think they got when they realized there was a bear sniffing around outside? I don't think they would have gotten all that much basket-weaving done, either. Same mentality.
So, no, your Ring is not the 'cure-all' for your working blues that you posit it is. I love the Ring and use it often. That doesn't mean it solves any of the problems you want it to.
==Aelryinth
@Aelryinth
Is your problem with crafting 8 hours while adventuring or crafting at all while adventuring?