I'm not even going to waste time arguing fatigue with you. Clearly not all travel is forced marches, and we've already laid out that even with adventuring (which could be read as travel) you still have the possibility of getting in 500gp or at a bare absolute minimum 250gp of crafting even if you're interrupted, not fast crafting and not an arcane builder. Add in arcane builder and fast crafting and thats 666 gp of progress per day no matter how you slice it. If you become a pain in the butt about fatigue there are plenty of players who will just put your whole campaign on hold and craft at home for 12 months until they get their way or you quit. Even that doesn't matter to you though. You'll take whatever path you can get to arrive at your conclusions and if your table thinks thats peachy then nothing we or you or anyone says here makes a difference.
I've got nothing for aelryinth at this point. He's going to run crafting his way and I'll be thankful there are other ways to run it and that our table doesn't have restrictions I can only characterise as 'unilateral arbitrarily restrictive personal choice' at best. I can only hope the Ultimate Campaign book refutes your views and we'll see for sure two weeks from now. Certainly even that wont stop you from doing whatcha do. Some guys just got a different game goin' than others.
I cannot see such choices adding 'fun' to any game, but maybe at your table they do. Game on.
The only ones I generally see trying to abuse the crafting rules are wizards, Vincent. They want to make 1000 gp of stuff every single day, and get in full days of adventuring at the same time.
have their cake and eat it, too.
Paizo put in rules that you can get 50% work done on the road while Crafting of any kind, including magical items. Promptly that was deemed insufficient and ways were sought to get around this restriction.
Why? Because being able to craft without limit is without a doubt the most powerful thing any single character can do in the game. the doubling of value of your gold in the end outshines any other feat, class ability or skill in its overall power and worth.
And so NATURALLY crafters try to take full advantage of it, and bend everything as far as they can go.
I take slight issue with your 'arbitrarily restrictive personal choice' terminology. You do realize that PFS does not allow Crafting AT ALL, and isn't considered arbitrarily restrictive? They simply know that there is no more unbalancing set of skills in the game, and letting them in is going to simply crush play balance.
Allowing Crafting is a luxury to the PC's, not a right. PC's too often see it as a fast road to early power, and it sets the campaign careening this way and that. Keeping everyone at the same power level of having to buy their gear at the same prices solves a lot of problems waaaaay before they start.
==Aelryinth
Paizo put in rules that you can get 50% work done on the road while Crafting of any kind, including magical items. Promptly that was deemed insufficient and ways were sought to get around this restriction.
And arcane builder with fast crafting can do better than 1000gp per day if they choreograph it right, but you're doing everything you can to make sure there's no amount of choreography thats good enough that you wont try screwin with it, and thats fine at your own table.
I hate to say it but out here... On the fringes... Are gamers... Who play differently than you.... And somehow... Despite it all... Still have fun!
I know. Its sounds like crazy talk even to me, but its true.
I take slight issue with your 'arbitrarily restrictive personal choice' terminology. You do realize that PFS does not allow Crafting AT ALL, and isn't considered arbitrarily restrictive? They simply know that there is no more unbalancing set of skills in the game, and letting them in is going to simply crush play balance.
PFS is only a small segment of the audience that plays pathfinder and the reason some of us don't play pfs is because they don't like that ruleset. If you like it power to you but like I say. Paizo takes exception to rules they wrote themselves, which speaks volumes about their acknowledgement of their audience's ability to be as flexible or as not flexible as they care to be. There are as many non pfs gamers out there as pfs gamers and if you want to play by PFS rules you don't belong in a forum about crafting rules because for PFS those rules don't exist. If you love the PFS no crafting rules then all ya gotta do is establish that up front so none of your players get boned by those restrictions if they don't agree with them and ostensibly don't exist in nearly the restrictive form outside of society play without a whole lot of dedicated effort to shutting a whole valid character build down.
Just don't pretend like it's the right way to play or the only way to play. Its a big world and a system with big flexibility, and both of those are too big for 'Aelrynths proclivities' to establish law.
If you dont like crafting, you come in to a thread like this and you do what I did. I came in saying the half dozen things I do to help a crafter give you a hard time, and you come in giving me a half a dozen things you do to try and shut a crafter down, and everyone gets to decide which one is crap. Don't act like what you're doing is the greatest bestest only way to go. Its great that it works for you. Its great that it works for PFS. Its still once choice in a sea of many.
As one who has played many systems(with their own wildly varying crafting mechanics) outside iterations of D&D, i'm perfectly happy working with whatever preferences my DM has for how/when crafting is possible. It's a group effort.
As one who has played many systems(with their own wildly varying crafting mechanics) outside iterations of D&D, i'm perfectly happy working with whatever preferences my DM has for how/when crafting is possible. It's a group effort.
And I used to say the same thing until I ran into GMs that didnt want to work with me or even listen to the rest of the table when the whole rest of the table thought crafting should be reasonably easy to orchestrate. I discovered in these forums that not every gm listens to his players.
If turning the crafting dial to zero even increases the level of fun and 'glee of the challenge' your players are having at the table by 5% I'd say go for it. If it doesn't then a gm should ask himself what the heck he's up to by doing it. PFS definitely does it for a reason. The reason is tightly controlling WBL so that all the PFS players feel that the society play is 'balanced'.
If you're not doing PFS play then you have no obligation to the society to establish that balance. So what are you trying to do and why are you trying to do it and does the rest of the table agree that it's just the bestest idea since sliced bread and why haven't we been playing this way all along?!?!
In the words of Sean Connery in First Knight "What we believe to be right and good and true IS right and good and true for all mankind, or its all just another bunch of rubber tripe."
(tripe is a cultural word for crap. thats right. King Arthur made a rubber dog poo joke while his whole city was under seige, held hostage by his nemesis)
And turning crafting down to zero isn't right and good and true for all of us. For some of us it's tripe. And a good GM will listen to what his players have to say on the matter or he should get out the chair.
There is a certain irony that the biggest factor in my being so adamantly for crafters is that there are dms out there who are so adamantly opposed to it that the rest of the table's opinions on the matter.... cease to matter.
Do it though. Turn crafting off completely. You'll either find yourself at a table full of PFS guys, a table full of people who dont waste any skills spells feats or traits on crafting, or a table full of you all by yourself because everyone left to go play a game of pathfinder that had some crafting in it... And all of those options are good options. I just adamantly disagree with the policy of 'saying you allow it' and then spending a whole campaign shutting it down'... All that does is create pissed off players.
Maybe i'm not correct there. Maybe somewhere out there is a table that just LOVES like the dickens creating a character full of feats and spells and traits and plans and hopes and dreams of crafting who thinks its super fantastico when the gm creates a CR+8 scrying wizard who has nothing better to do with his day than constantly hire the local schoolchildren to give your crafter wet willies every night at 3 am no matter where you hide. You're totally right. Not only does that totally make sense... way more sense than letting you craft whatever you craft and then trying to mug you for it later... Not that its going to be worth much to a guy who's a spellcaster 8 levels higher than you... But screw that logic... It also sounds like totally the most awesome fun thing ever creating such an incredible crafting guy just to be wet willied out of it by a bored guy I have no hopes of stopping. Maybe next time I can create an alchemist and you can cast a shatter spell on me once every 15 minutes for the entire campaign... What fun I've been missing out on.
Those players gotta be out there somewhere. I just know it. Lets all go find those guys so Aelryinth can have a game. I have been effectively shown there is a gaping whole in the totality of my gaming experience. I must see this game play out or my experience as a gamer is incomplete. I feel so hollow now. So very alone...
I have acheived enlightenment! Nothing is certain! I KNOW NOTHING! OOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo!
If you're not doing PFS play then you have no obligation to the society to establish that balance. So what are you trying to do and why are you trying to do it and does the rest of the table agree that it's just the bestest idea since sliced bread and why haven't we been playing this way all along?!?!
And turning crafting down to zero isn't right and good and true for all of us. For some of us it's tripe. And a good GM will listen to what his players have to say on the matter or he should get out the chair.
(i snipped down the quoted part, vincent to save space. no insulting or misleading intended.)
While i will and Do agree with the basic kernels you have in your posts, my personal opinion is that you come across as very Hardline. A DM will have tones, styles and/or themes he wants to portray and/or use. Players make their choices, concepts, characters, etc in line with those. It doesn't need to be "us vs. him". Theres nothing wrong with slow crafting progression in a campaign, and also nothing wrong with a fast magic mart. Seen and used both, each have their fun.
There is a difference in allowing something, and allowing something to be pushed to what a given DM considers an extreme.
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And that was my whole point. Look at what I did negotiating with my gm to get the kind of crafting that we both could live with. I'm not totalitarian at all... I just like crafting and have no patience for gms that put the dial at zero. Especially when they tell me they allow crafting before the campaign begun just to be annoying about it every time I try to use it. What it takes is an agreement between the players and the gm. Not a gm 'laying down the law' and not caring if the rest of the table thinks its alright or not.
Like I said in my above posts. Its about comprimise. Theres nothing wrong with a table that sets the limit at 2600 or 1000 or 500 or 250 or 0 crafting per day as long as you know it going in ahead of time. Taking crafting feats and then having your gm screw up every attempt to use that feat is just wasting a feat. I don't know many players who are cool with that.
The first pathfinder character I ever played I asked my gm if I could make a samurai which he said was fine... Was going to be a samurai with a focus on intimidation (which is a technique or set of options strongly built into the published class)... And on the first day our gm says to me 'oh we dont use intimidation rules at all. I don't like them or understand them very well'... Ah. Well thanks for invalidating my build, hondo... I guess I should roll up a new guy now.
First I learned that you should discuss your build/concept with the gm before the campaign ever starts, then I wasted a huge number of precious play weekends in the escalating power battle of trying to craft and being shut down and finding ways to circumvent or mitigate those obstacles, only for new obstacles to show up. In the end I wasted many weekends discovering that there are people out there who are happy to let you pick up crafting feats and traits and spells and skills and then shut you down at every turn no matter what you do. Why they do it doesn't matter to me. The fact that they do it takes a huge amount of the fun of the game away from me and so i'm acutely adamant about hashing that crap out ahead of time and strongly recommend anyone interested in crafting not waste the time I did on the same BS. I learned the hard way so that other people who love crafting shouldnt have to. Find out what kind of gm you've got ahead of time. If you plan to have fun crafting then your fun is in the balance. Based on those experiences I almost developed the opinion that pathfinder was a completely sh[redacted]t game...
----------These horrible ways... to handle the game... almost made me think the game itself was crap.----------
Thats not a good thing. It was only after calming down and reflecting on my 30 years of gaming experience that I was able to say no, wait. These are just horribly crappy gms who have no idea what they're doing, or at the very least have no idea how to correctly go about what they're doing. Theres no special warning in the crafting or intimidate skill rules that says 'warning: keep i mind that your gm may pretend to let you use these rules but be a total dbag about it during actual play!" The core book doesnt say "oh yeah, if you're playing by pathfinder society rules just don't read this whole crafting section'... There are expectations being set up by the core book, and when the expectations aren't met, thats a problem. Houserules are fine but you better lay them out before you let me start building characters. They're not the kind of thing you should learn once your feet hit the dirt.
And if I'm Hardline about anything at all, make no mistake. If a gm tells me crafting is fine in his campaign and the only thing I end up being able to craft is a nice firm b[redacted]ttocks for him to j[redacted]m his crafter hating ego into once per day then not inviting him back to the table next week is far more generous than he deserves with respect to how I handle him.
Paizo might say theres no such thing as wrongbadfun, but that switcharoo kind of gm is a piece of s[redacted]t that gives the hobby a bad name and I'm unapologetically pretty hard line about that. There's no certification program for gms and its become obvious to me that, more than anything else, in the last 2 years there has been an increase in the number of gms who don't deserve the spot for exactly these reasons. And the fact that they are brazen and proud enough to post about being that kind of gm here in the forums astounds me.
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I havent done it yet but i've seriously considered that for the remainder of my days any time a pathfinder game is suggested I'm going to play a crafter. Because a gm's willingness to allow it at all and sort out those details ahead of time is quickly becoming my litmus test of whether they're going to be the kind of gm I will enjoy or not. It is quickly becoming my gauge of whether I believe the gm knows what he's doing or doesn't. Of whether he knows how to be a good gm or a doesn't. It would have to be both an amazing campaign plotline and a dm I already trusted implicitly to convince me to play a pathfinder campaign without crafting anymore. I'm not there yet. But every time this topic comes up it gets me closer... And I'm getting pretty close.
Setting aside the possibility of lounging around on a Floating Disk, it seems like a PC who goes into a dungeon and kills monsters for an hour or two would potentially have more time to craft than one travels all day, fighting nothing, and then settles in for the night. If you kill something are you an "adventuring" crafter though? Do you stop "adventuring" if you rest 8 hours after killing something? Do you stop "adventuring" 24 hours after killing something? Or is the bit on "adventuring" crafters really just in there to say that you can make 2 hours of progress on crafting per day without devoting any time at all to crafting? I think the last is what's intended, but guessing at the intention behind something written years ago by somebody else is admittedly...well...guessing...
Why? Because being able to craft without limit is without a doubt the most powerful thing any single character can do in the game. the doubling of value of your gold in the end outshines any other feat, class ability or skill in its overall power and worth.
Actually, being able to double your WBL by crafting is expected for characters created above 1st level. I can't be sure of the developer reasoning on this, but presumably the feat sacrifices are considered to balance out the WBL gains.
This logic wouldn't apply so well when there's enough time for the crafter(s) to double WBL for the entire party even though other PCs didn't "spend" any feats on crafting. I'd kind of like to see a system where crafters get credits to be able to cheaply (and perhaps quickly) create a certain amount of magic items per level and anything above that limit would cost full price or maybe 95%
If nothing else this would even out the power of crafting across various campaigns and perhaps let the DM and players stop worrying so much about tracking every free hour of a PC's time to see what can and can't be crafted. It might also help stop threads like this one.
To get back onto topic...
Sufficiently creative players can find ways to craft on the road. One method I've used as player and GM:
Cast floating disk. Command the disk to let you get on it. Set up crafting stuff around you. Tie a rope to the edge of the disk, hand rope to the guy with the mule. Occasionally look up while crafting to admire the scenery as you float by.
Floating disk gives you an hour per level. Assume you're spending one of those hours in setup/takedown, stretching, random encounters, shoving the rogue off because he's tired and wants to ride, etc. Even with one missing hour you still get a lot done.
I don't think you can pull a Floating Disk with a rope like that. If you have a wand of Floating Disk then whoever used the wand could do the moving and have the Disk follow behind though. This is not an expensive investment, especially if you craft the wand yourself.
Even though I'm more on the permissive side of this argument I'll have to say that crafting as you float along on a disk seems kind of problematic though. I guess maybe you could scribe scrolls. I'd expect many DMs to give you a lot of trouble beyond that. Honestly I just imagined the time on the disk being spent sleeping or resting quietly so that you're not fatigued after 8 hours of traveling. Presumably you could put a palanquin style enclosure on the disk and have your own little floating alcove with curtains or even a door if desired.
By the time you can manage all this you're probably at least getting close to just being able to Teleport someplace in a single round. At that point the argument stops being about the specifics of travel time and location security and starts being about whether you can craft at full speed on a day where you've done anything other than craft.
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@Aelryinth
Is your problem with crafting 8 hours while adventuring or crafting at all while adventuring?the former. Getting around the rules that have already been put in place to allow you to craft on the trail because you want to have your cake and eat it too irks me, especially when there is NO RAW to allow it, only attempting to exploit a grey area and manipulate the rules.
Heck, it's what the title of the thread is about...bending the rules as far as possible.
==Aelryinth
Actually there is a (small) RAW passage that allows it, i am away of my books right now but i seem to remember something about dedicating your time to crafting (while adventuring) and you could get the full amount of crafting for the amount of time you spend, it also says something about doing it in 4 hours blocks of time.
In addition getting around the rules and be rewarded for your knowledge about them is kinda the point of the 3E system and the systems based on it, at least in my opinion.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
Actually, by very strict RAW it say the exact opposite.
It make 1 check:You are out adventuring?
If the reply is yes there is no way to get more than 4 hours of work that count as 2 hours.
That check don't care if you are in a secure location while crafting, if you have taken special provisions to secure your crafting location or if you sleep only 2 hours at night. It simply check if you are out adventuring.
Naturally then there is the problem of defining "out adventuring".
A more reasonable interpretation is that if you can get "a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine" you can work for full 4 hours half shifts and get full benefits from your crafting. Note how "a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine" is more restrictive than "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items".
The former should always guarantee that you get the full benefit of your hours of work, with the latter, depending on other factors, you could be limited tot eh half speed crafting.
@Vincet Takeda: actually the rules say "If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.", so, by RAW, a 25% increase in crafting speed would net you 1.250 GP of production in 8 hours, not a reduction in working hours. But as long as you and your GM are in agreement you can do what you like.
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He's also essentially putting in a full day of work after a full day of work, and should be rolling for fatigue and exhaustion every night he does this...sustenance doesn't take care of those rolls.I'm sorry, where are the rules that say you are fatigued for traveling 8 hours? Or for crafting for 8 hours? Or for doing both in the same day?
Could you not travel for 8 hours to a city, then craft for 8 hours in the local shrine/laboratory and get full production and full crafting done?
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
Very specific on what you can do with the hours of daylight left after traveling for 8 hours.
It go on giving rules about fatigue if you walk more than 8 hours.It don't say anything on what will happen if you do something different from the listed activities but you aren't walking and the FAQ about staying up all night don't help so it is a gray area.
Physically it is surely possible to travel for 8 hours and then do some hours of work, especially if it is some form of light traveling (like a a wagon on a road, traveling on a wagon off road is fatiguing and sometime very slow). Doing some precision work (like enchanting) after 8 hours of travel is fairly different and generally it should be done at half speed. If you take care to organize your working environment and you have a ring of sustenance 8 hours of travel and 4 hours of crafting at full speed is acceptable. More than that and fatigue start to be an issue regardless of the effect of the ring, that don't prevent fatigue.
Actually, by very strict RAW it say the exact opposite.
It make 1 check:
You are out adventuring?
If the reply is yes there is no way to get more than 4 hours of work that count as 2 hours.
That check don't care if you are in a secure location while crafting, if you have taken special provisions to secure your crafting location or if you sleep only 2 hours at night. It simply check if you are out adventuring.
Naturally then there is the problem of defining "out adventuring".A more reasonable interpretation is that if you can get "a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine" you can work for full 4 hours half shifts and get full benefits from your crafting.
I agree that it takes a very strict interpretation of raw to count a 4 hour window of secure uninterrupted crafting as adventure crafting unless you also have a very strict interpretation of adventuring and adventuring fatigue. Simply arguing here that making a unilateral judgement that the 4 hours counting as 2 without reading the context of why its counted as 2 is IMHO inappropriately 'lazy logic'. I personally consider a secure shelter to be exactly no less ideal a crafting environment than a lab or shrine. One can set their own limitations on what constitutes a lab or a shrine but again the difference is entirely subjective. unless we learn some new clarifying things from Ultimate Campaign here in two weeks.
@Vincet Takeda: actually the rules say "If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.", so, by RAW, a 25% increase in crafting speed would net you 1.250 GP of production in 8 hours, not a reduction in working hours. But as long as you and your GM are in agreement you can do what you like.
Exactly. By all rights I could push the issue that with arcane builder and fast crafting 4 hours of uninterrupted safe secure crafting nets me 4 hours at the increased rate and get 1333gp of progress done in that 4 hours, or if its counted as half progress because i'm adventuring or interrupted that still ends up being 666 (ooh!) gp of progress during my 4 hours of travelling interrupted crafting per day. so the dm would be forced to interrupt me or I not only get 1000gp of progress while travelling during the day but an additional 333 on top of that.
And by very strict RAW i'm entitled to the 4 hours that are only as effective as 2 for 666gp of 'travelling interrupted crafting per day' no matter how much of a stodgy badger the gm is. He then though invites me to at any time toss a few gold pieces to my party and say 'stick around here in town for a week. I've got some crafting to do... Toss a few gold to a dozen local heavys to keep people from bugging me, and stop a campaign in its tracks until I get the crafting done no matter how hard the gm tries to thwart me. A good arrangement between the gm and the players can circumvent such problems, and a gm and player that cant will likely be causing huge drama between each other during what should have been a gaming session all the players at the table could enjoy. A strict gm will quickly discover i'm the kind of player who's happy to let the world end if thats what happens while i'm busy crafting. Elminster and Fizban didnt drop everything they were doing just because Timmy fell down the well. Theres a certain point of strictness in a gm that makes me a very incompatible player. You pick your battles. There's lots of ways to handle it and there are as many ways to thwart a strict gm as there are ways a strict gm can be a pain in the butt about crafting, but that interaction can start to have a negative effect on the rest of your table if you don't figure out how to make it work.
You need some time to eat, make up camp, go to the privy and generally live beside spending your life as craft/travel/sleep."When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10." -SRD
So if you travel for 8 hours, and sleep for 8 hours, can't you craft for 8 hours?
True, but even if you spend time eating, going to the privy, etc. you should still have plenty of time for crafting. After all, crafting in normal circumstances would require you to eat, etc. too.
If that's not enough, there is a Tiefling alternative racial trait that means you do not need to sleep. That's 8 hours you can craft.
Yeah, either Ultimate Campaign will provide some clarification and or new options or folks will just have to disagree and rule however seems reasonable to them in their own games. You only have to play by RAW in PFS anyhow, and there's already no crafting there.
I'm not going to say I don't bring a little bias to the table. Probably the reason i'm such a staunch supporter of summoners and crafting is that aside from summoners and crafting, I consider Pathfinder to be an inferior system to 2e. I can't help but feel its a little ironic that the two things that a large base of the players and at the same time the developers themselves have such a dislike for are the two things that, in my mind, really separate it from 2e in a positive way.
If a GM wants to get rid of summoners and crafting, I have a strong tendency to just say 'Lets head on back to 2e then, because you've taken away the only things about Pathfinder that make me care about Pathfinder at all.'
I am starting to see a pattern with these threads where the most heated battles are fought over abilities that are of above average influence to the campaign while at the same time being abilities that can be unilaterally switched off wholesale by a gm pretty much on a whim... Like a paladin smite, there seems to be exactly the same sort of pattern where its a significant thing, where there seems to be a strong contingent of people who really think paladin smite is awesome and have a strong desire to play a paladin, and then such a strong element of the gm population that just totally delights in 'flippin the switch' on it.
With paladinhood the argument focuses largely on the vague arbitrary interpretations of semantics on what one should consider the proper requisites for a fall. With magic crafting the agrument focuses largely on the ways that if a gm were forced to allow it in the first place, the myriad tactics that he could use to make its output zero anyway. The results are the same. There's something cool in the game that players want to play, and a group of gms who have an adamant hatred of those things and just whip out the banhammer on it. And how the publisher and the society can not like those things and yet those things still manage to make it to publication is the real boggle for me.
I'm strongly motivated to slap a version of summoning and crafting together in 2e and go with that instead, if it weren't for the fact that all the other guys at my table are young pups who think ad+d2e is 'too complicated' for some reason.
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I agree that it takes a very strict interpretation of raw to count a 4 hour window of secure uninterrupted crafting as adventure crafting unless you also have a very strict interpretation of adventuring and adventuring fatigue. Simply arguing here that making a unilateral judgement that the 4 hours counting as 2 without reading the context of why its counted as 2 is IMHO inappropriately 'lazy logic'. I personally consider a secure shelter to be exactly no less ideal a crafting environment than a lab or shrine. One can set their own limitations on what constitutes a lab or a shrine but again the difference is entirely subjective. unless we learn some new clarifying things from Ultimate Campaign here in two weeks.
My personal position as a GM:
- you can craft in a secure shelter as well as in a laboratory (with the possible exception of armor, metal weapons and a few bulky metal items) unless if there are monsters banging on the door;- some of the crafting could be disturbing for your roommates trying to sleep, so, depending on what you are producing, it could be needed to set up 2 adjacent secure shelters or some other sleeping accommodation for the other members of the party;
- a appropriately furnished traveling wagon can work for most crafting;
- rope trick don't seem a appropriate location for most crafting. There could be exceptions, but it seem more akin to a small tent than a good laboratory;
- Mage magnificent Mansion is practically the best location possible for crafting;
- and so on.
Mostly I dislike the idea that you can craft during "morning preparation" (you are already memorizing spells, recharging staff, how many things you are doing in that 30 or 60 minutes?) and "during watches at night" (seriously? what modifier you suffer to perception for working while keeping watch? and what modifier to the crafting check?).
From my point of view crafting while adventuring, if you don't make special preparations, is better to be limited to potions, scrolls and similar items, stuff that can be made with little fuss.
YMMV as there is people that enjoy the 15 minutes adventuring day, something that I don't like.
Similarly I don' see a crafting as something you should do after a fight to the dead where you have gone down to your last hp. In my vision of adventuring life, most people, after that, would rest, unwind, brag about their combat exploits and so on, not start a project that require serious concentration.
Probably a lot of the discussion and incomprehensions here are based on unspoken assumptions. Traveling =/= exploring =/= adventuring =/= fighting but sometime the different terms are used in a interchangeable way.
Ah, the dreaded 'entitlement' word.
No, no, the developers did NOT expect when the game was set up that all the players would double their WBL with crafting feats. As a matter of fact, SKR is pretty much the only one who chimed in with that opinion.
And for or against, crafting is GREAT for players and HORRIBLE for DM's.
Oh, I'm not talking 'product placement' for DM's trying to control magic. The rules say you should be able to buy stuff if you get to the right area, and if it isn't available, commission it.
I'm talking the simple control of wealth.
At low levels, you don't see the wealth multiplier coming into play so much...maybe a +1 here or there above what is standard.
But as the game continues, what you rapidly get is characters that are geared out as someone 2-4 levels higher because of the multiplied wealth, which trounces the normal encounter level matrix quite handily. AC, TH, stat bonuses, save bonuses are all higher then should be the average for characters, and unlike spells/buffs, are non-ending resources.
And all for the price of a feat or two.
Power gamers realize this instinctively, and every adept optimizer I've ever seen goes for Crafting...they all know about force multipliers. Every new splat book is new items to make, new arguments with the DM on what they can craft, and they are always seeking to do what no other character can do...play when nobody else is playing by turning their downtime into uptime.
Crafting is how you get training bonuses in PF, only non-casters really can't train and match the spellcasters.
Crafting messes up gold by level and is inherently unbalanceable. It is a whip to be wielded against the rest of the party...do as I say, or no more cheap gear for you! It excludes a number of the classes from using downtime by introducing a mechanic they simply cannot take advantage of easily.
I consider the idea of entitlement to Crafting laughable. It causes problems for DM's even as it delights players. It is inherently unbalanced on multiple levels, and I can see why every massive play campaign ever has banished the crafting feats. IT simply lends itself to the wrong style of play.
==Aelryinth
You need some time to eat, make up camp, go to the privy and generally live beside spending your life as craft/travel/sleep."When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10." -SRD
So if you travel for 8 hours, and sleep for 8 hours, can't you craft for 8 hours?
True, but even if you spend time eating, going to the privy, etc. you should still have plenty of time for crafting. After all, crafting in normal circumstances would require you to eat, etc. too.
If that's not enough, there is a Tiefling alternative racial trait that means you do not need to sleep. That's 8 hours you can craft.
Kindly note that not needing to sleep is NOT not needing to REST. He needs to rest just as much as anyone else, he's just awake while he's doing it.
And a DM who doesn't use the fatigue rules with someone trying to do nothing but work overtime all the time isn't doing his job.
==Aelryinth
I'm talking the simple control of wealth.
Right. The gm has trouble handling his players and in order to make his own job easier, he starts 'controlling things' that should be out of his control. Meaning the players themselves, their feat choices, their decisions with their spare time, their use of resources... The players are the one thing you shouldn't be 'controlling' in your campaign.
Crafting messes up gold by level and is inherently unbalanceable.
This is an area that may be true but the publisher has specifically said that the game is intentionally not balanced and doesn't need to be. There seem to be a metric ton of gms who think it should be, and for them I recommend 4e.
It is a whip to be wielded against the rest of the party...do as I say, or no more cheap gear for you!
I've never used it that way but if a player thinks of it as a whip, then just step out from under the whip and buy your gear at normal prices.... Feeling like you should get cheap gear doesn't sound like 'entitlement' to you? I thought you hate the 'dreaed intitlement'
I consider the idea of entitlement to Crafting laughable.
Ah see. Right there.
IT simply lends itself to the wrong style of play.
There's where you say we're having wrongbadfun. There is no 'wrong style of play'.. I recommend taking a step back and considering once again that there are people out here who play... different than you... and still have fun doing it. I've never said that taking crafting down to 0 per day is a bad way to play as long as you're upfront about it... Your position seems to be that anything above zero and fatigue and shutting down player options is the wrong way to play.
- some of the crafting could be disturbing for your roommates trying to sleep
I agree here. I usually don't have the other party members trying to sleep while i'm crafting... My preference is to craft while everyone is still awake and eating dinner (which with sustenance ring I dont have to do)... I consider the quiet directed activity of crafting to be my way of 'unwinding after a rough day'.
- rope trick don't seem a appropriate location for most crafting.
I think the wording of the rope trick leaves enough room for interpretation that I'd agree with you here.
Mostly I dislike the idea that you can craft during "morning preparation" (you are already memorizing spells, recharging staff, how many things you are doing in that 30 or 60 minutes?) and "during watches at night"
I entirely agree here. Either you start your 4 hour crafting window when everyone wakes up so what... You don't get on the road until noon? Or you have to start before the party wakes up? Those don't seem like good options to me. I'd also never be crafting while i'm on watch, though I usually share a watch with other party members since I only sleep 2 hours a night. Crafting and being on night watch seem mutually exclusive to me. If I have to craft while everyone else is sleeping, someone else has to be on watch because i'd be totally useless doing both at once. My perception is so low that I'd be useless at night watch even if I weren't busy doing something else...
My position is not dictacted by you, Vincent, and misreading isn't helping the cause.
If Crafters have a downtime option to improve themselves, everyone should have a downtime option to prove themselves.
Surprise! They don't.
You may never have used Crafting as a whip against the rest of the party, but guess what? Others do. And then you turn around and say "Hey, sucks to be them, just go buy stuff at full value like idiots!" instead of, you know, everyone having to pay the same price all the time.
Which is Fair to everyone. Not 'balanced'. FAIR.
I can see you're hugely pro-Crafter, and the language you are using makes me fairly sure you're an optimizer and a power-gamer. Your 'discussions' with your DM seem more like brow-beating him to give in to the kind of game you wanted to play, where you get to dictate the rules, and to heck with anyone else and their gaming experience. It's pretty common among the people who play high-powered spellcasters...they simply have to feel they have control of the game.
And that's fun for you, but it doesn't mean it's fun for everyone else, or the DM, and yet you still feel 'entitled' to play that way, regardless.
I don't have a problem with limited crafting meant to generally substitute for not having contact with a city. But someone who insists on getting his 1000 gp of production a day, regardless of where he is, is screaming rules abuse and powergaming, and yeah, I have real problems with that style of play, because I've seen where it ends up time after time. One guy gets the best goodies, doles dribs and drabs to the rest of the party to get influence, maybe even gets 'paid' by them to make gear, and all of it pushes against the wealth by level and encounter levels of the game until they break.
Your tone and wording reeks of entitlement game play, and your 'moderation' is nothign more then you getting your way against your DM. So, no, I don't have fun with that style of game play.
And, jeez, trotting out some quote about how the game is inherently unbalanced and go play 4e smacks so much of spoiled rules lawyering min-maxness it just makes me shake my head.
==Aelryinth
'unwinding after a rough day.'
Crafting is WORK. it is as strenuous as travelling. It's not effortless translation of gold into goodies. WHen you craft, you're working as hard or harder then when you were travelling.
hence, fatigue rules.
==Aelryinth
'unwinding after a rough day.'
Crafting is WORK. it is as strenuous as travelling. It's not effortless translation of gold into goodies. WHen you craft, you're working as hard or harder then when you were travelling.
hence, fatigue rules.
==Aelryinth
Matter of opinion to support your conclusion. Not the way everyone thinks.
Look dude. I hate to bust your bubble, but your argument that its unbalance and that its hard on gms and it just ruins everything is a problem with you specifically.
I am a gm and have been running games since 1980 and I have have no trouble running a game with crafting in it, and the game doesn't become unbalance or unwieldy or hard on me or not-fun-for-the-non-crafters or ruined. Its all you man. Its all you.
and btw, Vincent, playing the 'control of downtime' card is classic power-gaming.
You're free to do whatever you want with your downtime. But ONLY when Crafting magic items can you double your money, and improve your gear and combat effectiveness.
That's why power gamers cling so hard to Crafting. It's the ONLY way they can make downtime truly affect uptime.
All other downtime stuff is roleplaying. Crafting, however, is rollplaying and powergaming, pure time multiplication.
You also denigrate the DM's ability to control his players. Crafting is inherently uncontrollable...the player can craft whatever he can afford, as soon as he can afford it. No rolling to see if the item is available, no waiting on a commission, no counting out how many more gp is needed.
It's not the GM losing control, it's the player throwing off any control.
No other player is going to have a problem with what they do in downtime.
You would see the exact same kind of abuse if, for instance, only rogues and fighters were able to train in their downtimes. Let's say fighters could train to gain feats, and rogues could train to gain skill points. They could spend the gold, and next rogue or fighter level, bing, new feats! new skill points! Something nobody else could get, and they just converted gold into upgrades!
And then if we let monks train for STATS, weee.
The uproar that every class should be allowed to 'train' would be instantaneous. but you'd surely see every fighter, rogue and monk doing anything and everything they could to get their hours of training in each and every day...just like a crafter.
Yet the crafter gets all the benefits of 'training', converting gold into stats, and screams and waves their hands anytime anyone tries to be fair about the whole process.
Meh.
==Aelryinth
And 'creating a +8 scrying wizard with nothing better to do with his downtime than track me across the earth to ruin my crafting is a classic use of power-gm overreach.
You're the one denigrating a gm's control of players by suggesting that a little thing like crafting will somehow destroy his control, and by suggesting that he should have any control of the pcs in the first place.
If you want to run my character I'll just grab my keys and go find something else to do. Controlling my character is the one job you don't have.
I have no idea what you're talking about with 'training for stats'... I don't play monks. The argument that allowing crafting opens the floodgates for some other thing you hate a lot also is not a sound argument and is again a fallacy of scope...
If we allow crafting then why dont we allow giant mutant lazer beavers!?!?!
Matter of opinion to support your conclusion. Not the way everyone thinks.'unwinding after a rough day.'
Crafting is WORK. it is as strenuous as travelling. It's not effortless translation of gold into goodies. WHen you craft, you're working as hard or harder then when you were travelling.
hence, fatigue rules.
==Aelryinth
You're trying to tell me crafting isn't work? I think every craftsman ever would have to disagree with you.
Why don't you go walking for eight hours, then jump on a construction crew for eight hours to 'wind down'. I'm sure it'll be nice and relaxing.
Or maybe engage in the incredible focus and precision neccessary in high-grade jewelmaking, calligraphy, painting, or (gasp) making of magical items. Yeah, being freaking tired after travelling all day isn't going to have ANY effect on you.
Every hour after eight hours of walking, if you continue to merely walk, you make a Fort save or become fatigued. that check goes up by +2 per hour.
Now you're trying to argue that crafting is RELAXING to defend your playstyle. Classic powergaming defensiveness. I have to admit I actually rolled my eyes when I saw that.
===Aelryinth
I think equating the crafting of a cloak and carrying 300 pound steel beams are kind of in a different neighborhood there hondo. You're the one making eye rolling claims here. The boston marathon runners finished their marathon and then immediately kept running to donate blood to the bombing victims. Your idea of fatigue might come from feeling how tired you are after 8 hours of whatever you do for a living, but some people have jobs where they are on their feet all day and when they get out of work they go play raquetball to relax.
Maybe you should go play some raquetball because it sounds like you need to relax.
And 'creating a +8 scrying wizard with nothing better to do with his downtime than track me across the earth to ruin my crafting is a classic use of power-gm overreach.
I have to wonder where that comes from.
Thieves target people with money. Crafters are people with lots of valuable items. You are the PREFERRED TARGET. Your wealth is small, portable, valuable to a wide variety of people. Of COURSE there are people whose entire occuptation is to relieve you of your wealth, just as you relieve bandits and monsters of theirs, and them taking their time to work out how to take you out is great time value of money trade.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you can beat him up and take his fish, and come back tomorrow and take his fish again.
NOT Believing that is classic player entitlement that they live in a perfectly secure bubble, and the world revolves around them and only them. It's the words of someone who believes they control the campaign.
==Aelryinth
Well you just keep doing what you do there hondo. I certainly don't care what you have to tell yourself in order to run things the way you do for your people... Why you insist you should hold sway over the playstyle of everyone else here is beyond me though. Again sorry to burst your bubble, but you have no power here.
Are saying master cloak-makers dont' get tired and bleary-eyed? That their concentration doesn't waver? That they won't mess up a cut, a stitch, a line, and have to start all over?
Mental fatigue is every bit as enervating as physical fatigue...the body actually cannot distinguish between them. Something requiring incredible precision and focus can wear you out as surely as toting around lumber and slamming a hammer on nails. More, really, because you work on a crew a long time, and you get strong and tough. The brain is not a muscle.
Ask a docter or lawyer if they aren't tired at the end of a day. Purely mental professions. Ignoring the reality of Crafting is not making you look better.
==Aelryinth
I know walking for 8 hours would probably wreck you as a person, who probably sits in a chair all day and drives a car to work, but adventurers are made of sterner stuff there champ. I don't want to make this personal, but if stitching a cloak together after 8 hours of walking would make you tired, then its true you'd make a bad adventurer, but even my wizards are half as frail as you seem to think every adventurer should be.
Well you just keep doing what you do there hondo. I certainly don't care what you have to tell yourself in order to run things the way you do for your people... Why you insist you should hold sway over the playstyle of everyone else here is beyond me though. Again sorry to burst your bubble, but you have no power here.
And you have even less justification for yours. Right back at you, Vincent.
I'm not the one saying control of a person's downtime. That's all you. You're the one saying you're ENTITLED to do something in your downtime that none of the other players is.
You can't even make the simple connection between a benefit allowed one person and denied another, and see the inherent unfairness.
==Aelryinth
Stamping entitled on to my post doesnt make me wrong any more than it makes you right. It is a meaningless word with meaningless clout. Everyone is 'entitled' to play the game their own way. And that everyone includes the rest of us.
And once again the publisher themselves said its not supposed to be fair. I'm not saying that you cant run a game that you think is fair, but again thats you and your game. Not every game has to be fair and balanced and the publisher states as much directly.
I know walking for 8 hours would probably wreck you as a person, who probably sits in a chair all day and drives a car to work, but adventurers are made of sterner stuff there champ. I don't want to make this personal, but if stitching a cloak together after 8 hours of walking would make you tired, then its true you'd make a bad adventurer, but even my wizards are half as frail as you seem to think every adventurer should be.
LOL.
Keep up with the bad analogies. I'll go ask some military guys who've been on patrol.
Hey there, Champs, You've been out on eight hour patrols in heavy gear and stuff. did you come back and, you know, feel like starting up a forge and slamming steel, or do some serious metalworking, or studying for your next rank exam after all that?
I think the pretty uniform answer I'll get is "*)&*)(& No." All they are going to want to do is unwind.
You're talking like adventurers are immune to fatigue checks. that's HILARIOUS.
==Aelryinth
Stamping entitled on to my post doesnt make me wrong any more than it makes you right. It is a meaningless word with meaningless clout. Everyone is 'entitled' to play the game their own way. And that everyone includes the rest of us.
And once again the publisher themselves said its not supposed to be fair.
Stamping 'entitled' on your post, and you not merely not denying it, but actively EMBRACING it, shows what kind of player that you are.
Wrong and right can extend from there.
And now you've changed your word.
Actually, the publisher said it was not 'balanced'. He said nothing about FAIR.
Keep it up, you and your patronizing are not looking any better.
===Aaelryinth
Well, I'd love to keep up this elegant and wonderful conversation with you genius, but my gaming sessoin is starting. Game on my brotha
Enjoy your game.
And MDT, I've got no 'vitriol' against you. You quoted me and what I said, made assertions that were highly accusatory, 'high handed DM' and all, and I pointed out that 'whiningly entitled PC' was an equally apt assertion, and that rules manipulation extended both ways. You got all huffy and attack-defensive because the rules really aren't all on your side, that's all.
Sorry Charlie.
I've not called you a 'high handed DM'. You made that up. You seem to do that a lot though in this thread, make up things not in the rules. Then you claim your argument is 'right' and everyone else is 'whiny players cheesing the rules'.
Please show me in the rules where it says the 8 hours of travelling per day doesn't include rest and eating breaks? You aren't going to find any.
Overland Movement
Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement. Overland movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day. A day represents 8 hours of actual travel time. For rowed watercraft, a day represents 10 hours of rowing. For a sailing ship, it represents 24 hours.
Note that it just says an overland day of travel represents 8 hours of actual travel time. It doesn't say 'you are walking/running/riding for every second of the 8 hours', nor does it say 'you are travelling for 8 hours, resting and eating as appopriate'. Both interpretations are equally valid, one day of travel overland moves you X miles. I interpret that to be including resting as appropriate during the 8 hours. Nobody I know of walks like a robot for 8 hours, they walk, they slow down to a stroll, they pick up the pace, they stop along the way to smell a flower or take a breather.
I see nothing in the rules for your interpretation to be any more accurate than mine. If you have a rules quote where it says the overland travel time doesn't include appropriate actions during travel, please point them out. Otherwise, it's just your opinion, which we all know what is worth.
Diego - I find your "personal position" from your last post very reasonable. Making potions and scrolls in your spare time and other stuff only with some special preparation seems like a pretty good solution especially for stuff like armor where the "heat source" requirement is a little vague and might be difficult to meet.
Wow, I feel like I just finished reading a soap opera.
I make magic items for myself and my party members. I suppose I must be a bad player and stop gaming altogether.
Wow, I feel like I just finished reading a soap opera.
I make magic items for myself and my party members. I suppose I must be a bad player and stop gaming altogether.
Strangely, I find myself using my Craft skills more often to make stuff for other party members rather than myself. The idea that crafting, and allowing a reasonable amount of crafting, is somehow 'powergaming' is absolutely laughable to me.
I'd point out, by the by, that the whole "four hours' worth of work while traveling" is a general rule, and that there are specific rules that override it. For example, since in the Craft system cost equals time, the Cooperative Crafting feat (which is a boon to any party with two or more crafters) means that even if you can only work for four hours and get the benefit of two, your assistant ensures that you're actually getting four hours' worth of gold out of the work still.
Any DM who tried to argue that that wasn't viable - to be honest, I'll find another game.
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'unwinding after a rough day.'
Crafting is WORK. it is as strenuous as travelling. It's not effortless translation of gold into goodies. WHen you craft, you're working as hard or harder then when you were travelling.
hence, fatigue rules.
==Aelryinth
Matter of opinion to support your conclusion. Not the way everyone thinks.
Look dude. I hate to bust your bubble, but your argument that its unbalance and that its hard on gms and it just ruins everything is a problem with you specifically.
I am a gm and have been running games since 1980 and I have have no trouble running a game with crafting in it, and the game doesn't become unbalance or unwieldy or hard on me or not-fun-for-the-non-crafters or ruined. Its all you man. Its all you.
And it is also a matter of opinion to support your conclusion.
And based on how in other threads you have said casters overpower everything, it isn't really accurate to say you don't have a problem with balance, now is it?
and it's not all me. I have seen tons of power gamers and optimizers in multiple locations point right at the crafting rules as one of the most broken things in 3.5, and PF doesn't make them better.
Unless you voluntarily restrict yourself from using the rules to their full potential, Crafting gets out of hand really, really fast.
MDT, I'm not sure at all what you're arguing about with the travel rules. The only time sensitive stuff I pointed out was when people pointed out they were crafting and travelling at the same time, and that travelling more then 8 hours (and by extension, working more then 8 hours) starts costing you fort saves against fatigue.
But Vincent posted above that his favorite things about 3.5 and PF is Crafting and summoners. One is the thing that powergamers says most rapidly upsets a campaign, and is the single hardest thing on a DM. The other is the class that people even on these forums agree is overpowered, and, more pointedly, sucks time and attention away from the rest of the party the worst. It is a fun class to PLAY...because you get to do so much stuff. It's a total pain to play with, and to play against.
That's not exactly the kind of play style I like to encourage, you know?
==Aelryinth
The rest cycle for a 6 man party is twelve hours, not eight. Add eight hours travel time and your day now has four hours left for all meals, breaks, preparation time etc. And of that four you can probably expect to be sitting on sentry for a further hour or so.
Do the math.
I don't think you can pull a Floating Disk with a rope like that. If you have a wand of Floating Disk then whoever used the wand could do the moving and have the Disk follow behind though. This is not an expensive investment, especially if you craft the wand yourself.
Even though I'm more on the permissive side of this argument I'll have to say that crafting as you float along on a disk seems kind of problematic though. I guess maybe you could scribe scrolls. I'd expect many DMs to give you a lot of trouble beyond that. Honestly I just imagined the time on the disk being spent sleeping or resting quietly so that you're not fatigued after 8 hours of traveling. Presumably you could put a palanquin style enclosure on the disk and have your own little floating alcove with curtains or even a door if desired.
By the time you can manage all this you're probably at least getting close to just being able to Teleport someplace in a single round. At that point the argument stops being about the specifics of travel time and location security and starts being about whether you can craft at full speed on a day where you've done anything other than craft.
I figure scrolls, certain wondrous items, potions if you're careful. The three foot disk is only one inch deep so you'd be more worried about things getting knocked or blown off than toppling inward.
The spell says "It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed per round. If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you."
Direct it to let you sit on it. Tie rope to a harness attached to you. It accompanies you, buoying you at the spell's listed 3 feet off the ground. Just hope that the mule pulling it doesn't bolt or you'll go flying with the disk wizzing around behind trying to catch up eith you before it winks out from range difficulties.
Not ideal. But funny. And I use the Rule of Cool in my games when the RAW end up somewhat... lacking in directness. Like this situation.
I think a lot of the argument and point of this thread is thus: crafting while adventuring is never going to be ideal. It's very difficult to spend 8 hours a day crafting in addition to wandering around, killing monsters, sleeping, eating, and in general being distracted by wilderness, wind blowing your junk away, and obnoxious party members poking your stuff.
So... is floating disk crafting ideal? Fffft. Of course not. No crafting on the move is ever going to be ideal. You'll never get a full 8 hours in unless you charter a wagon or boat and just don't leave the hold.
Yeah you could do some craft that takes little space, like knitting and whittling... maybe. Get a comfy chair to put on the disk though!