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I'm still not understanding this whole "OMG Barbarians suck because they auto-die out of Rage!" thing.
If the Barbarian auto-dies when he comes out of Rage, then he took enough damage to KILL HIM OUT OF RAGE. Meaning Rage is the only reason he survived to end his Rage in the first place.
Ok then what is the problem? I understand people not wanting to play a class, but many people don't want that a summoner at their table and I find that to be an unfounded opinion.Bah people keep saying summoners are overpowered, but when you compare them to fullcasters no one has yet to show that they are OP. Yet nearly every critique of the summoner on this thread alludes to them being OP.If it makes you feel any better, my reservations concerning the summoner have absolutely nothing to do with its upper end strength.
My problem is more with the master summoner than with the base summoner. And that problem is that it breaks action economy too much. He has not only 1 or 2 full round actions worth of screen time during combat but several.
Summoner himself, eidolon, summoned creatures.If he summons lesser monsters he gets lots of them, I think 1d4+1 or so.
But even without this specific archetype I'm just not compfortable with the machanics how the summoning and the eidolon works. The summon monsters spells where balanced with a duration of 1round/level and a casting time of 1 round in mind. And that's the case even for classes like the druid with his spontaneous summons. So if nothing else the summoner makes the already mediocre druid class ability even weaker (at least in comparison).
If the standard summon monsters spell was a standard action as well and the eidolon had some fixed base forms to select from the base summoner would be ok in my book.
My problem is more with the master summoner than with the base summoner. And that problem is that it breaks action economy too much. He has not only 1 or 2 full round actions worth of screen time during combat but several.
Summoner himself, eidolon, summoned creatures.
If he summons lesser monsters he gets lots of them, I think 1d4+1 or so.But even without this specific archetype I'm just not compfortable with the machanics how the summoning and the eidolon works. The summon monsters spells where balanced with a duration of 1round/level and a casting time of 1 round in mind. And that's the case even for classes like the druid with his spontaneous summons. So if nothing else the summoner makes the already mediocre druid class ability even weaker (at least in comparison).
If the standard summon monsters spell was a standard action as well and the eidolon had some fixed base forms to select from the base summoner would be ok in my book.
Since I really like the master summoner lets talk about this.
1. if the eidolon is out a master summoner can have 1 SLA out. A normal summoner cannot have an SLA out with his eidolon.2. if summoners did not have standard action summoning then summoner monster becomes a lot harder to use, which would not be ok for someone call a "master summoner". The duration bonus is there so a summoner is more likely to use his SLA regardless of the encounter. Like if a rat attacks your lvl 20 master summoner, you can use your SLA and feel confident that you didn't waste it, since it will probably last to the next encounter.
EDIT: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pnw5?Why-is-the-Master-Summoner-Broken#1 || action economy isn't a huge advantage. Master Summoner doesn't get quicken spell without expensive rods. (Not that their spells have the same force as any other full caster)
Now back to more boring base summoner talk.
So the summoner doesn't get summon monster 3, 6, or 9. If he has an eidolon out there is a good chance that his summon monster spell are a full spell level behind the druid. Furthermore, the summoner has to use up spells known to get his summon monster spells. The druid does not have to prepare SNA to cast them.
So let's look at the druid for a second. We have wildshape (watered down synthesis summoner), We have an animal companion (watered down eidolon). We has spontaneous summoning (watered down summoner SLA). And we have real full casting (this just laughs at the summoner).
So the Druid is a nerfed combo of summoner, master summoner, and synthesis summoner. Each of those three have a better feature than a druid, but the druid gets all three. No polymorph for master summoner or summoner. The animal companion is better than a master summoners eidolon (which he doesn't have out).
The only summoner I think that even compares to a druid is a master summoner. Even then the druid is still more durable and has better spells. The master summoner can only compare with his wonderful summoning. Even the high level cleric and wizard are still better than any summoner and at low levels Fighters are better.
@Avh 20 point buy seems good.
<stuff>
Could you just read these threads that I had on this topic. They are short.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pnw5?Why-is-the-Master-Summoner-Broken#1
Or the other thread.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2plsx?So-is-a-Master-Summoner-Good-or-Gouda#1
You just banned the Summoner at any future games I run. ^_^
Eh...that wasn't my intention. Marthkus wouldn't leave well-enough alone. I had made it through the thread pretty well without commenting on most of the base classes in a negative fashion. But nope, I make one comment about how I don't dislike them because of their upper power limits, he asks why, and then insists on arguing about it...and arguing stuff I know from experience isn't true.
I've allowed summoners in my games before. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that while they're clunky the Synthesist summoner is actually among the weakest members of the summoner types and the synthesist I GMed for was a venerable old man with strength, dexterity, and constitution 1, and maxed mental statistics which more or less laughs at any saving throw DC issues anyone could bring up (on a side note, due to the way Constitution works this actually caused his Hp to skyrocket when he was in eidolon form due to minimum Hp, each level he got 4.5 - 5 or 1 Hp per level, then for every +2 Con he got during the eidolon fusion he gained +1 Hp/level, which actually results in a subtantial net increase in Hp than if his Constitution was actually higher; this is a trick that existed way back in 3.x). About as cheesed as you could get with the synthesist.
But the things I mentioned are problems I have with the summoner. The core casters were significantly nerfed from 3.x and there's only a few spells in the game that are really powerful and only one that's really broken that I can think of off the top of my head. Summoners get all of these spells (the planar binding line is very powerful because it can give you powerful minions, simulacrum is the most powerful spell in the game right now, and maximized summon monster VIII is a very powerful trick right now).
They are also more well rounded than druids. Now I'm a big fan of druids. They're powerful. I've even posted a mini-guide on how to utterly devastate enemies with a druid as a blaster (oh snap, did he do that? O.o). I submitted a druid in a druid in a thread that can solo most normal Pathfinder encounters from 1st level and up due to their versatility and meatshield-potential.
Summoners have the perfect animal companion. Without magic items your eidolon's AC will reach about 45 if it's only a medium biped with 4 evolution points spent over the course of the game on the natural armor evolution (the other forms hit 46 and 47 respectively) and mage armor. Summoners can use their planar binding spells to get inherent modifiers to ability scores to further improve their eidolon (wizards and sorcerers can do this as well to be fair, but they also don't get a juggernaut as a companion) which can further augment their eidolon with no magic items shared between them. The bipeds can also wield weapons and shields (a +X mithral light or heavy shield adds significant AC to the eidolon with no real drawback, especially since it's a slotless item).
But my intention wasn't to get anyone to ban anything. Knowledge is power.
@Ashiel
Could you post builds? You have even said that every actual experience you had with summoners was not bad, but you still insist that they are OP and all you can say to back up that point are theory-craft points.
@Ashiel
Could you post builds? You have even said that every actual experience you had with summoners was not bad, but you still insist that they are OP and all you can say to back up that point are theory-craft points.
Give me some time and I will. I gotta run an errand. But it's worth noting that I have a very, very high tolerance for power because I ran 3.x for about a decade and I'm very, very much aware of what the top end of that edition looked like.
Tier 1 Pathfinder doesn't even scratch tier 2 3.x.
fair enough. I would put the OP ceiling at pathfinder druid and maybe wizard and cleric at the higher levels. I already have a master summoner build ready (so much easier to build).
I too ran 3.5... my god the combos... Hence why I play pathfinder now.
I like the Alchemist, though I feel it's a bit disjointed between extracts, bombs and Mutagens, to the point where it almost feels like they cobbled together the class from a bunch of ideas that didn't really have the ability to support a class or archetype on their own. I feel like they probably could have done something with Mutagens being a Barbarian Archetype, Bombs being a rogue archetype (since one of the things people complain about the changes to rogues is the loss of SA with Splash weapons), and The alchemist class could be a 9 level "caster" of sorts with extracts, possibly with infusions being a baseline ability, rather than a discovery.
Cavalier just fell flat for me. I think a large part of it was that I like the Marshal of 3.5 and the Warlord of 4e, and the Cavalier was presented as being that, but the teamwork feats by and large sucked, Challenge never felt like I was issuing a challenge to the foe, but more felt like a mediocre damage boost, but it doesn't really give the target of the Challenge a mechanical reason to care that they've been challenged. Sure, the extra damage might entice them to try to put you down first, but the -2 AC was usually a better incentive, and that was for Everyone but the target of the challenge. Lastly, though this is more personal-taste, I don't care about mounts, so the mounted charging focus wasn't really enticing. If I could have my way, I'd have at least one archetype that trades out the Mount and Charging stuff for active Buffing and Inspiration.
Gunslinger I never saw past level 2, since most games don't really work flavor-wise with guns. Also, though I never got to the point to really see if this would be the case, it seems like the misfire chance and the reload times make the class have a very sharp drop as they go higher in levels, since full attack isn't really as viable. And if you try to circumvent that with Advanced Firearms, that takes you far out of the Fantasy feel, since you can feasibly say early firearms are fine, if they're rare and dangerous, but it's not the same way with advanced firearms. In addition, they seem pretty powerful. Expensive, sure, but I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable letting them in a game just from that standpoint. The rules for firearms are pretty neat, though I wish there were better ways to pull-off the guns as one-off weapons, maybe even a concealed pistol for the rogue to get off a sneak-attack on a heavily armored foe.
Inquisitor, I like, in that it is essentially to the cleric what the bard is to the Wizard, which I think was something that was missing. Again, though, the mediocrity of Teamwork feats works against the class, though the preacher archetype does provide an alternative, as does the fact that Int and Cha are Dump stats, so Even with the bonuses provided by Monster Lore and Stern Gaze, they probably won't be the go-to monster-identifiers or Intimidaters, and unlike bards, they don't really have a way to cut down on skill-investments, so they can't always fill the skill-roles it seems they were designed to fill.
Magus, I like. It plays how I think a Gish class should. I can't really complain much.
Oracle I like, though the curses make it very niche for me. If I don't want to play a character with any of those curses, then there's no real way to play an oracle, even if I like the Spontaneous Divine Casters and the Mysteries. This basically just seriously limits the class to me so much that I can hardly play it unless the moons align, and I want to play a character with one of the curses.
Summoner, I don't like. Synthesis summoners get to just dump their physical stats without penalty, while Non-synthesis summoners get a huge action economy. I don't think summoner was necessary, and I think it's more of a hassle than it's worth.
Witch, I'm mixed on. I like the unlimited use hexes, but it never really felt like the addition of the Witch added much. I'd have preferred something closer to the Warlock from 3.5.
Overall, I like the Base classes alright, but for the most part they feel like they could have been improved a little more before being shipped out. I do appreciate Paizo not succumbing to class-bloat, like 3.5 did.
bias against? hahaha Barbarian is my favorite class.Not a fan of playing paladin's but hey that's just cause I can't be lawful. I hate being lawful with a passion.
As for pallies. how long are they gonna be stealing from people and attacking good people before they turn to evil. If they're bandits, making a regular time of things like this then they're evil, hands down. Otherwise the GM is just metagaming against you. It is possible to come to blows with other people that aren't evil but that will rarely happen. This isn't even taking into account the fact that what I stated was that AP's are full of evil characters.
As for the girl, its nice that she can play it well. Unfortunately I take this more to mean you don't properly understand how to apply pressure to a summoner. you don't whack down the eidolon. You ignore it and bring down the summoner. Cause as soon as they're down so is the eidolon. Things with concealment, incorporeal, or other such things will be great against them. Ranged attackers will also be fairly solid.
1. No I don’t have bias against them, I’m saying they are balanced because their ungodly damage and nice saves in rage, (Plus rage has some nice utility features…i.e. Iron culvert in the way preventing escape for the pcs? Rage and rip that thing apart…etc,etc.) are put in check by having to make sure they don’t get into auto die range before the healer can get to them. And even still if a regular PC hits 0 they are uncon, Barbar hits 0 and he is more than likely dead rather then just knocked coo coo.
2. Bandits can run the gambit of the neutrals and chaotics. If the PCs arrive in town and sharrif says there is bandits stealing from the prince and his allies, the PCs assume evil dirty thieves, but run into a Robin Hood (CG) characters instead. Still a dirty thief, but not evil. Same as a slave press ganged into an evil army, the slaves aren’t evil, just desperate. None of this is metagaming, these scenarios come up all the time in fantasy stories.
3. My point is if a 14 year old kid can handle the class anyone can. And in the course of Kingmaker she has had her close calls, even was swallowed whole once and rescued in the nick of time.
The major point is that though, summoners have major strengths and weaknesses that balance them. Just like a fighter, cleric, druid, rogue/ninja, etc.etc.
Also when a Druid gets knocked unconscious her animal companion is still up and kicking, also a summoner can’t fill every role, they have zero healing abilities, unless you burn 5 evo points to get CMW 3 times a day. And that’s still very suboptimal, even more if you want a few shots of CSW. They can get skilled but that doesn’t mean they can detect or disable magical traps like a rogue.
Anyway bottom line, not op, unique balanced class.
High level summons can heal and umd can use a wand of CLW. But that's like saying a sorcerer can fill the healing role.
2. And I'd still call the slaves evil. If someone put a gun to your head and told you that if you didn't kill someone there on the spot then they'd kill you, you're still evil for killing them. Its a fallacy that you don't have any choice just because people threaten you with death. Your other choice is death, but you are still actively choosing to put yourself above other people to the point of actually trying to hurt them. That is evil, hands down, putting yourself before everyone else with no regards to who it hurts.
3. Its not balanced by a long shot. Take a party of any other 4 characters and then take a party of 4 summoners. They hit level 15 and the eidolons stand around party members and suddenly everyone is getting a +10 AC and saves.
2. Lets not get into an argument over the morality of a man held at gunpoint. I see nothing good coming from this.
3. Bonuses of the same type don't stack.
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I'm just online for a bit 'cause my D&D group just made a food run. I just gotta say...again...this barbarian rage thing is really, really old.
Barbarian rage does not kill you. Ever. It never has. Are people so utterly incapable of doing basic rudimentary mathematics?
If you have 100 HP and raging grants you 20 Hp, then you have 120 Hp while raging (both current and max). If during the battle you take 119 HP and then proceed to end your rage, you die.
But here's the funny part. You were already dead. Get it? See, rage doesn't give you HP and then deal damage to you when it ends. You already have the damage. If coming out of your rage would kill you then you were already dead without the rage.
Seriously...this is really irking me. Stop saying this. It's stupid.
Some DMs like to bring PCs to zero. But yeah. Barbars are good and paladin lay-on-hands and channel energy don't have saves thus superstition doesn't work on it.
@anon fem
Dude Bard can fill any role. Versatility doesn't make you OP. Part of full-casters power is how versatile they are. Summoner is not OP.
Try building a summoner before you say it's OP. A summoner can't fill every role at once.
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Summoners are powerful...and not well balanced...possibly not well thought out...but when you say 'broken'...
Play Stormbringer. Play with whatever random race you get. Have a good group, all random...then introduce ONE Myrrin...Pan Tangian...or (ack) Melnibonean sorcerer of a decent rank...then get back with me.
Summoners are powerful...and not well balanced...possibly not well thought out...but when you say 'broken'...Play Stormbringer. Play with whatever random race you get. Have a good group, all random...then introduce ONE Myrrin...Pan Tangian...or (ack) Melnibonean sorcerer of a decent rank...then get back with me.
Yes, but that was a reflection of the world Moorcock built. They were superior. He didn't need game balance and the game was just... accurate.
@anon fem
Dude Bard can fill any role. Versatility doesn't make you OP. Part of full-casters power is how versatile they are. Summoner is not OP.Try building a summoner before you say it's OP. A summoner can't fill every role at once.
Thats not exactly true, Master summoner is one of the most overpowered classes in the whole game. I wont bother explaining it because it wouldn't go anywhere like I mentioned last page, but I will point out you seem to be reading someone elses post as my own.
Wrong master summoner is not OP at all.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pnw5?Why-is-the-Master-Summoner-Broken#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2plsx?So-is-a-Master-Summoner-Good-or-Gouda#1
Go ahead and read the two threads I had on the issue, They are short.
Try building a summoner of any sort before saying it is OP.
I'm just online for a bit 'cause my D&D group just made a food run. I just gotta say...again...this barbarian rage thing is really, really old.
Barbarian rage does not kill you. Ever. It never has. Are people so utterly incapable of doing basic rudimentary mathematics?
If you have 100 HP and raging grants you 20 Hp, then you have 120 Hp while raging (both current and max). If during the battle you take 119 HP and then proceed to end your rage, you die.
But here's the funny part. You were already dead. Get it? See, rage doesn't give you HP and then deal damage to you when it ends. You already have the damage. If coming out of your rage would kill you then you were already dead without the rage.
Seriously...this is really irking me. Stop saying this. It's stupid.
We had this in a local game back in 2000(?), but I scoped it out as the Barbie Dolls wanting first healing (I know, I know). After I healed others first, the Dolls backed off their suicide charges. 2 characters using up over half the healing in an 8-9 person party? Every session?
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But here's the funny part. You were already dead. Get it? See, rage doesn't give you HP and then deal damage to you when it ends... this is really irking me. Stop saying this. It's stupid.
This isn't entirely true.
A barbarian with 100HP (120HP while raging) and his fighter friend are standing next to a stone giant.
Case #1, the barbarian rages.
The stone giant decides to try to kill the barbarian first, since he appears to be wearing less armor and is whacking him good with his 2H sword.
Round 1, the stone giant hits the barbarian for 70HP and brings him down to 50HP.
Round 2, the stone giant hits the barbarian for 35HP, sees he is still standing and hits him for 25HP more. This brings the barbarian down to -10HP, his rage ends, he loses 20 temporary HP and dies at -30HP.
Case #2, the barbarian doesn't rage.
Same deal, the stone giant whacks the barbarian for 70HP on the first round and brings our barbarian down to 30HP.
Round 2, he hits the barbarian again for 35 damage more, and the barbarian ends up at -5HP and drops to the ground. The stone giant, seeing the barbarian is effectively removed from the fight, and not really planning on stopping to make a Heal check, turns and whacks at the fighter for 25HP.
The barbarian lives to fight another day.
I have some more examples to use.
Case #3: The barbarian has Raging Vitality and rages.
The barbarian gets wacked for 70 damage and brought down to 60 HP, seeing he is still alive he whacks the barbarian for 70 more damage with another two hits. The barbarian is still alive and kicking and smashes the golem with the fighter the next round.
Case #4: There is no fighter and the barbarian doesn't rage.
The barbarian gets brought down to -5. The golem smashes him with his leftover swing and the barbarian dies instantly.
Case #5: The golem smashes the barbarian with the fighter next to him anyway because the GM is rather cruel, or thought he could take it or something similar.
Case #6: The GM spreads the pain and no one died, but there were some close calls.
I wish my GM's played like that. Double tap bud. Always double tap.But here's the funny part. You were already dead. Get it? See, rage doesn't give you HP and then deal damage to you when it ends... this is really irking me. Stop saying this. It's stupid.This isn't entirely true.
A barbarian with 100HP (120HP while raging) and his fighter friend are standing next to a stone giant.
Case #1, the barbarian rages.
The stone giant decides to try to kill the barbarian first, since he appears to be wearing less armor and is whacking him good with his 2H sword.
Round 1, the stone giant hits the barbarian for 70HP and brings him down to 50HP.
Round 2, the stone giant hits the barbarian for 35HP, sees he is still standing and hits him for 25HP more. This brings the barbarian down to -10HP, his rage ends, he loses 20 temporary HP and dies at -30HP.
Case #2, the barbarian doesn't rage.
Same deal, the stone giant whacks the barbarian for 70HP on the first round and brings our barbarian down to 30HP.
Round 2, he hits the barbarian again for 35 damage more, and the barbarian ends up at -5HP and drops to the ground. The stone giant, seeing the barbarian is effectively removed from the fight, and not really planning on stopping to make a Heal check, turns and whacks at the fighter for 25HP.
The barbarian lives to fight another day.
I have never encountered a GM who doesn't play like that. It doesn't make any sense to focus on the guy lying in a pool of his own blood, when there's another guy in your face trying to eviscerate you.
I wish my GM's played like that. Double tap bud. Always double tap.I have never encountered a GM who doesn't play like that. It doesn't make any sense to focus on the guy lying in a pool of his own blood, when there's another guy in your face trying to eviscerate you.
I've met GMs who coup de' grace players. YMMV. I happen to have a personal bias to the guy who doesn't actively kill his players.
I wish my GM's played like that. Double tap bud. Always double tap.I have never encountered a GM who doesn't play like that. It doesn't make any sense to focus on the guy lying in a pool of his own blood, when there's another guy in your face trying to eviscerate you.
I've met GMs who coup de' grace players. YMMV. I happen to have a personal bias to the guy who doesn't actively kill his players.
Argh... You miss my point entirely. I've played with GMs who play major hardball gygaxian D&D, being targeted by death effects by third level, being ambushed by Medusa wizards with a dip in assassin, Do you get the idea? These GMs don't waste actions on dying, unconscious PCs, because taking down the rest of the party is a bigger priority.
I wish my GM's played like that. Double tap bud. Always double tap.I have never encountered a GM who doesn't play like that. It doesn't make any sense to focus on the guy lying in a pool of his own blood, when there's another guy in your face trying to eviscerate you.I've met GMs who coup de' grace players. YMMV. I happen to have a personal bias to the guy who doesn't actively kill his players.Argh... You miss my point entirely. I've played with GMs who play major hardball gygaxian D&D, being targeted by death effects by third level, being ambushed by Medusa wizards with a dip in assassin, Do you get the idea? These GMs don't waste actions on dying, unconscious PCs, because taking down the rest of the party is a bigger priority.
You missed my point entirely. Sometimes the GM kills the guy on the floor. Sometimes he doesn't. Saying I missed your point because your killer DMs killed differently doesn't change a thing. I said mileage may vary, there will be table variance, blahblahblah, the example was a golem deciding not to attack a downed player. I said sometimes he does.
As a side note, adventurers need to be double tapped because they're like zombies?
Edit: Also, your quotes are a bit off.
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Hell yeah they need to be double tapped. I've seen those adventurers go down just to get up as soon as some guy runs over and tapped a stick against them. Trust me you don't want that.
I wish my GM's played like that. Double tap bud. Always double tap.I have never encountered a GM who doesn't play like that. It doesn't make any sense to focus on the guy lying in a pool of his own blood, when there's another guy in your face trying to eviscerate you.I've met GMs who coup de' grace players. YMMV. I happen to have a personal bias to the guy who doesn't actively kill his players.Argh... You miss my point entirely. I've played with GMs who play major hardball gygaxian D&D, being targeted by death effects by third level, being ambushed by Medusa wizards with a dip in assassin, Do you get the idea? These GMs don't waste actions on dying, unconscious PCs, because taking down the rest of the party is a bigger priority.You missed my point entirely. Sometimes the GM kills the guy on the floor. Sometimes he doesn't. Saying I missed your point because your killer DMs killed differently doesn't change a thing. I said mileage may vary, there will be table variance, blahblahblah, the example was a golem deciding not to attack a downed player. I said sometimes he does.
As a side note, adventurers need to be double tapped because they're like zombies?
It was a stone giant, not a golem. If it was a golem, it wouldn't make sense for it not to continue attacking.
In any case, I was commenting on a specific scenario, not saying that no-one should target unconscious PCs.
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If there are no options, people complain. If there are too many options, people complain.
Paizo release material so people (usually the GM) can pick and choose what is needed for X campaign setting. It is not always going to be an option for players, but the material might make it a tad easier for the GM.
Personally, I like the new base classes and the archetypes. No such thing as too many options IMHO.
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The thing attacks me. Crits once. Hurting. Twice. down. Cleric heals me up and I bluff to pretend I'm still out. three times critted. Bleeding again. Cleric heals again but not enough. 4 times. dead. then the creature specifically drags my body off ignoring my teammates so I can't be rezz'd or reincarnated.
This is what happens when you sleep with the GM's girlfriend.
Twice.
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I wish my GM's played like that. Double tap bud. Always double tap.
I think this is how GMing goes once you're in your 40s or later.
Folks just don't have enough time to roll up interesting new PCs, so you tend to try to keep the active ones around longer.
And GMs don't have time to figure out how to integrate the 3rd replacement character for a player in a long-running campaign, or want to throw away all the cruel stuff they have planned but haven't revealed for the potentially deceased character's siblings, parents, children, cohorts and henchmen.
That is -- unless the PC is 7000gp+ above WBL. If so, then swing away!
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Okay, sorry to take a while on getting this but I've been running errands a lot over the week and then had to play D&D today with some friends of mine. It's 11:26 and they just left a couple hours ago so I threw this together.
Summoner McSummonpants (15 pb, no traits, human)
Medium Humanoid (human) summoner 11;
Init +3; Senses Perception +9; AC 28, touch 15, flat 25 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +3 deflection); Hp 97 (11d8+44), Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +11; Speed 30 ft.; Ranged +1 composite longbow +12/+7 (1d8+2/x3)
Summoner Spells Known (CL 11th)
4th (3/day) – overland flight, purified calling, lesser planar binding
3rd (5/day) – magic circle against evil, greater invisibility, stoneskin, heroism
2nd (6/day) – haste, see invisibility, wind wall, resist energy, phantom steed
1st (7/day) – mage armor, shield, endure elements, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, grease (DC 18)
0 – mending, read magic, detect magic, mage hand, arcane mark, message
Special Attacks summon monster VI (11 minutes each, 9/day)
Str 14 (12), Dex 16 (14), Con 18 (14), Int 14 (12), Wis 7, Cha 22 (18); Feats Spell Focus (Conjuration) (1), Augment Summoning (B), Craft Wondrous Item (3), Craft Magic Arms & Armor (5), Toughness (7), Craft Rod (9), Medium Armor Proficiency (11); Skills Handle Animal +23, Knowledge (Planes) +12, Ride +17, Spellcraft +12; Equipment +2 strength gloves, +2 dexterity boots, +4 constitution vest, +2 intelligence circlet, +4 charisma headband of persuasion (+3 to Charisma-based checks), , amulet of natural armor +2 and protection +2 (12,000 gp), +3 celestial armor, lesser bracers of archery and resistance +4 (23,500 gp), lesser metamagic rods of extending (2), +2 mithral breastplate, +2 mithral buckler, 5,000 gp in additional gear
Eidolon (15/15)
AC 33, touch 11, flat 31 (+4 armor, +18 natural, +2 dex, -1 size);
Hp 94 (9d10+45); Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +12;
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee 6 +1 chain kamas +16 (1d8+10/x3)
Space/Reach 10 ft. / 10 ft (20 ft. w/weapon).
Str 28, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11; BAB +9, CMB +19; CMD 31; Feats Exotic Weapon Profiency (double chain kamas) (1); Iron Will (3), Multiweapon Fighting (5), Toughness (7), Double Slice (9); Skills Disable Device +14, Fly +14, Perception +12, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +10; Equipment 6 +1 chain kamas, mwk tool (stealth), +4 cloak of resistance,
Evolutions large size (4), 4 limbs (4), natural armor +6 (3), flight (4) plus Biped freebies
The Eidolon?
Barring some cheap weapons and a cloak to improve her saves the eidolon is naked. When making single attacks (such as when moving around) the eidolon 2-hands her chain kamas and attacks with +50% strength at +18 for 1d8+14. Her full attack is 6 attacks at +16 at an average of 14.5 damage per hit. The summoner traditionally casts heroism on the eidolon to bring her up to +18 on all attacks. Given the usual AC of a CR 11 enemy is 25 there's a 70% chance to hit per attack (giving an expected DPR on a full-attack of about 60.9.
Her real strength is her reach (20 ft.) which makes her an excellent bodyguard and murder-machine. She has a 33 AC with mage armor (which lasts 11 hours a day) without a shield (though she has the option of sacrificing some offense to wield a mithral shield for bonus AC). But a shield's not really necessary because according to the creation chart the high-end attack for this level is around +19 and low end of +14, which is a 65% evasion vs high end attacks and 85% evasion vs low end attacks without buffs (shield of faith from a cleric would push them into near-unhittable range, as would a wand of shield, or a barkskin spell, which is fair because in general most front-liners appreciate these sorts of buffs).
The 20 ft. makes it difficult to get out of her reach as well. Withdrawing is not an option, nor is taking a 5 ft. step, so she is very irritating to caster-folk.
With the ability to fly adequately it's also easy for her to ignore terrain problems in most cases. And she's exceptionally expendable. While she has 94 hp (a decent amount at this level) she can be resurrected up to 3 times over the course of an adventure via the summoner's 4th level spell (allows the resummoning of the eidolon at full HP/status, which beats the hell out of the 10,000 gp you need to resurrect your favorite martial when they snuff it).
So what about the Summoner?
The summoner basically just enjoys the casting and buffing. Similar to a bard. The summoner has a pile of offense bottled up but doesn't use it until the eidolon snuffs it big time or something special is needed. Common tactic is cast phantom steed early in the day and rides and during combat cast extended greater invisibility using her lesser rod of extend to spend 22 rounds invisible. She usually then either keeps casting as needed or shooting with her composite bow from on her phantom steed. Or she'll cast the invisibility on her eidolon and let it bring people to ruin.
If her eidolon isn't out she has summon monster VI 9/day for 110 rounds each cast. Favorite summons include:
Lillend Azatas who are armed with magic weapons, have a nice amount of HP, barding music, and a number of nice spells. Ideal summon in a martial heavy group without a bard OR as support for existing summons due to Inspire Courage +2.
Shadow Demons who utterly wreck anything that cannot fight incorporeal creatures effectively (which is a rather large portion of the bestiary). It's pounce is near assured damage against most enemies and due to its flight and incorporeality it doesn't care about terrain stopping its charge (22 average damage on a full-attack) and it's got a large number of useful SLAs, it's DR 10/cold iron or good mixed with incorporeality, immunities, and SR make it very potent tank.
Succubus for spellcasting. Armed with a DC 22 charm monster at will, it can easily fly around bringing ruin to enemies. Makes a damn good interrogator too. It's DR and resistances makes it a solid tank as well for soaking large amounts of damage from enemies while it's mobility through teleporting can allow you to pester enemies. Against enemies immune to the charm, it can cast and hold vampiric touch and deliver it through a claw attack routine.
Erinyes gives us a strong ranged attacker with a bow who also has at-will unholy blight which is devastating vs any good or neutral enemies (it's untyped will-save damage which means it's very difficult to avoid unscathed without specifically being evil). Constant true seeing makes it a powerful scout or spotter and fear at will and their entangling ropes are pretty useful too. Like most of the others here their DR and resistances make for good meat shields.
Huge Elementals where brute force is necessary.
Will often summon 1d3 of the following creatures to flood the battlefield with meat and actions...
Bralani who have ranged and melee, strong DR against most NPCs, a flight form and a magical non-elemental blast that can be spammed while in wind form. Also has a variety of useful spells, and the ability for each summoned brilani to cast lightning bolt at CL 6 (so frequently due to their long duration she will have some Brilani ready actions to cast lightning bolt at other casters when they cast while remaining summons fight as the concentration DCs vs 6d6 damage are irritating to casters in the extreme).
Babau are also useful to summon en mass against a number of foes. They make excellent meat shields, can see invisible, are armed with reach weapons, have sneak attack (which works well with their reach weapons for supporting party members or tag-teaming with one-another). Their DR and resistances make them powerful meat shields against most enemies. Creatures relying on natural attacks have to deal with their acidic slime. They also have at will dispel magic which is generally sufficient to shut down most potions and consumables (oh sorry, did you need that potion of fly?).
Xill are an offensive monster of choice. Their attack routine is vicious and nothing wants to deal with their paralysis or implant ability. They are also a rather amusing way to banish creatures that you've rendered helpless (either by the Xill or through another effect such as an allied hold person).
Against evil foes, the celestial dire lion will activate smite and pounce to cause some real harm (+8 damage with all attacks while the target or it is alive). A fine subject for 1d3 critters per casting.
Field Flooding...
Bison can be summoned in celestial or fiendish flavor at 1d4+1 per casting. Their trample is 100% guaranteed damage vs most enemies (anyone without evasion) and having the ability to just mow your enemies over unless they waste turns slaughtering bovines round after round is a very useful tool.
Called Creatures
The summoner has lesser planar binding and the will to use it (she has an effective +9 to Charisma checks to command a bound creature) so here are a list of creatures she forces to serve her for a week at a time. She can have multiple instances of these active, limited only by her downtime and cruelty.
Shadow Mastiffs are her go-to punk minions. During downtime the summoner intentionally has them bay until she and her companions have successfully saved against their baying. After that, they just run into mobs of enemies and begin howling and biting at enemies providing a very powerful AoE fear effect (even at high levels this is a pain for enemies because of natural 1s and the fact there is no limit to how many of these little wankers you can have).
Nightmares are useful mooks that the summoner can bind into service for a week or so. The summoner can acquire one for each party member as a mount and allow them to travel to other planes through this means easily. They also make a cheap flying mount (90 ft. per round) if the summoner decides that she wants something more stylish than that phantom steed.
Quasits or Imps are both perfect minions who can serve their master. Both have access to commune and invisibility and make efficient scouts. Imps have the bonus of being able to cast augury. Due to the weenie nature of these guys you can comfortably bind many, many of them to your will and use them for a variety of purposes (the imp poison is particularly nice as a source for parties with alchemists or ninjas in them just 'cause it's free).
Hound Archons are excellent frontliners due to their DR (the frequency of fighting foes with unholy weapons unless they are evil outsiders is very rare) and their constant auras and detect evil can be useful. Their teleportation makes them good errand boys since they can make shop runs for you (you don't even need these guys to fight for you, just have them teleport to shops and the like to buy and sell stuff up to 50 lbs. at a time, which means even if you're like fifteen miles into Mordor you can replace some spell components and/or dump some loot back at your hideout without having to burn through your spells).
Lantern Archons. Everyone remembers these guys right? The ones with the touch attack rays that piece everything in the game (EVERYTHING). Well, yep, here we are again. The golem unmakums are back again. Since we're calling these critters to our service we can amass quite a few of them and have them gestalt if we want to (makes them into a super elemental with 2d6 light rays).
So why do I think it's overpowered?
The eidolon is naked and has a very potent AC and its attack routine can be improved manyfold from where it is now (this is assuming very little buffing here). The summoner itself has plenty of HP, AC, and I'm happy with its saves and has plenty of defensive and offensive tricks (the extended greater invisibility is a dirty trick in many encounters, and stoneskin might cost 250 gp in material components but it can utterly ruin enemy offense against themselves or their eidolon so it's a good backup). Since summoning is offensive I consider them to have plenty of punch as well.
When their #1 critter snuffs it (up to 3 times per day) we can summon a wide variety of creatures for free we have a wide variety of creatures with various strong powers and offensive capabilities. The sheer amount of damage mitigation and problem solving available through summoning is strong enough that the summon monster line of spells has been a line of power spells for clerics and wizards and sorcerers since 3.x.
But summoners get top-level summons at a faster casting time (making it difficult to interrupt and not nearly as risky for the payoff) many times per day with no components (you don't have to do anything, not even wiggle your finger to cast this).
Round this out with their downtime critters they can bind (or later create) and they have a rather wide breadth of skill opportunities (the likelihood that they, their eidolon, their summons, or their bound creatures can't answer a skill problem is pretty low).
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The closest class to this kind of power AND versatility in role I know of is the druid, and they pale in comparison to the summoner in pretty much every role except perhaps blasting (but to be a dedicated blaster/caster druid you traditionally are going to end up giving up on your wildshaping except for mobility, and your pet is going to need way more equipment and buffing to be more than a meat wall). Druid animal companions also take longer to restore when they snuff it (druids need 24 hours to recover their animal companion, summoners can full-restore everytime they recover spells).
And I consider druids to be tier 1 in Pathfinder alongside wizards (wizards have slightly more power but less versatility because a wizard has issues changing their roles and have to emphasize more on defense do to being squishier and not having a free meat-shield).
Summoners are actually stronger at the lower levels where all the extra meat means just mowing over your enemies (3 + Cha mod times per day of summoning monsters and an eidolon means you can probably solo most adventure paths in the early levels).
@Ashiel
Your Summoner has no summon monster or spells to heal the eidolon. No dimensional anchor means few outsiders you can bind. No summon monster spells means no field flooding.
Eidolon: Chain Kama are light weapons. You over estimate the damage. All but one of those attacks are off-hand attacks making them 1d8 + 5 do to how multi-weapon fighting works. Congrats any amount of DR and you will have to role high to break into double digit damage. You can't two-hand swing more than one kama at a time since two handed swings are not secondary attacks (which is all multiweapon fighting gives) No power attack or pounce. To be OP the summoner has to be more than half as powerful as a barbar sorcerer combo. This eidolon would be lucky to do a quarter of a barbars damage. Your eidolon is useless since you to fell into the trap of giving them a whole bunch of weapons to fight with. Flurry of love taps.
Basically you made a nerfed sorcerer who's SLA is better than the eidolon. This is OP because?
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I appreciate all the work that went into the summoner post.
After a quick scan, I'd see no problem letting that PC sub in for an 11th level wizard in a hypothetical Runelords AP.
Damned 11th level wizard keeps using Circle of Death and Disintegrate on my monsters! :)
Longtooth, the juvenille red dragon is sort of the typical standalone monster you'd see.
He's only CR11 so not even really much of a challenge for a party of four.
He swoops in the middle of waves of attacking stone giants (some with class levels) and starts scorching buildings.
Here's where I'd like a summoner's flexibility because they can dismiss the eidolon and bring out some water elementals to help extinguish the fires spreading throughout town on the first round.
I suppose the Summoner would then use Haste on the party if the cleric didn't use Blessing of Fervor... and maybe get some Resist Energy up on whoever the dragon starts to head towards?
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.
No material components on the SLA is the same thing the sorcerer gets. Gate still cost money.
@Ashiel
Your Summoner has no summon monster or spells to heal the eidolon. No dimensional anchor means few outsiders you can bind. No summon monster spells means no field flooding.
Eidolon: Chain Kama are light weapons. You over estimate the damage. All but one of those attacks are off-hand attacks making them 1d8 + 5 do to how multi-weapon fighting works. Congrats any amount of DR and you will have to role high to break into double digit damage. You can't two-hand swing more than one kama at a time since two handed swings are not secondary attacks (which is all multiweapon fighting gives) No power attack or pounce. To be OP the summoner has to be more than half as powerful as a barbar sorcerer combo. This eidolon would be lucky to do a quarter of a barbars damage. Your eidolon is useless since you to fell into the trap of giving them a whole bunch of weapons to fight with. Flurry of love taps.
Basically you made a nerfed sorcerer who's SLA is better than the eidolon. This is OP because?
Doesn't need healing, It can be rezzed 3 times per day. Duh. Summoner doesn't need SM spells, it gets SM as a spell like ability. Duh. Chain Kama are two handed weapons. Huh, looks like you got nothing.
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Doesn't need healing, It can be rezzed 3 times per day. Duh.
Doesn't that take 11 rounds with Purified Calling?
That's a long time in many situations...
Fight #1 ends, the eidolon has 10HP left. Do you roll into fight #2 with a 10HP eidolon? Or... do you just finish off your best friend with your heavy pick so you can use this method to "heal him"? :)
Rather than kill him, couldn't you just dismiss the eidolon before casting Purified Calling?
Doesn't need healing, It can be rezzed 3 times per day. Duh.Doesn't that take 11 rounds with Purified Calling?
That's a long time in many situations...
Fight #1 ends, the eidolon has 10HP left. Do you roll into fight #2 with a 10HP eidolon? Or... do you just finish off your best friend with your heavy pick so you can use this method to "heal him"? :)
If it comes to that, then why not? Although usually they can just be healed up by whoever does that normally. The healing non-issue is really just a straw-man. Barbarians don't have any means of healing either, but no one criticizes a lack of healing capability in a Barb build.